9207
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
5
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7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
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17 REPORTER’S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
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19 FRIDAY, MAY 6, 2005
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21 8:30 A.M.
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23 (PAGES 9207 THROUGH 9271)
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27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 9207
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
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11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A.
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067
14 -and-
15 SANGER & SWYSEN
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C
17 Santa Barbara, California 93101
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28 9208
1 I N D E X
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3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index. Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index.
6 Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index.
7
8
9 DEFENDANT’S
10 WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
11 ROBSON, Joy 9210-M 9218-SN 9262-M
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28 9209
1 Santa Maria, California
2 Friday, May 6, 2005
3 8:30 a.m.
4
5 THE COURT: (To the bailiff) Gosh, you don’t
6 have to shout.
7 (Laughter.)
8 THE COURT: Good morning.
9 Call your next witness.
10 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor. The next
11 defense witness is Joy Robson.
12 THE COURT: Please raise your right hand,
13 face the clerk right here.
14
15 JOY ROBSON
16 Having been sworn, testified as follows:
17
18 THE WITNESS: I do.
19 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and
20 spell your name for the record.
21 THE WITNESS: I’m Joy Robson. It’s J-o-y;
22 R-o-b-s-o-n.
23 THE CLERK: Thank you.
24
25 DIRECT EXAMINATION
26 BY MR. MESEREAU:
27 Q. Good morning, Miss Robson.
28 A. Good morning. 9210
1 Q. Miss Robson, where is your home?
2 A. In Sherman Oaks, California.
3 Q. And do you know the fellow seated at counsel
4 table to my right?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Who is he?
7 A. That’s Michael Jackson.
8 Q. How long have you known him?
9 A. 18 years.
10 Q. And how did you meet Mr. Jackson?
11 A. Originally, in Australia in --
12 Q. I think you need to speak up a little bit.
13 A. Sorry. In Australia. He was touring on the
14 “Bad” tour, and my son Wade was five years old and
15 won a Michael Jackson look-alike/dance-alike
16 competition.
17 Q. Did you develop a friendship with Michael
18 Jackson?
19 A. Not immediately. Two years later, we
20 returned to the United States for -- Wade was
21 dancing here, and we reassociated with him at that
22 point, and became friends from there, from 1989.
23 Q. Are you still Michael Jackson’s friend?
24 A. Absolutely.
25 Q. Have you been to Neverland?
26 A. Many times.
27 Q. How many times do you think you visited
28 Neverland? 9211
1 A. I have no idea. We average about four times
2 a year since we’ve lived in the United States, which
3 is 14 years now, and quite a few times before that.
4 Q. Do you remember the first time you visited
5 Neverland?
6 A. Yes. It was in January of 1990.
7 Q. And how did you end up visiting Neverland?
8 A. When we were here, we called around, trying
9 to find Michael again. He had told us if we
10 returned to the United States to contact him. So we
11 called around, and we eventually were put onto his
12 personal assistant, which at that time was Norma
13 Stakos, and they called Michael.
14 He remembered us, and said he would like to
15 see us again. So we met him at a recording studio
16 where he was working at the time.
17 Q. And did you stay at Neverland on that first
18 visit?
19 A. Yes, he invited us to stay that weekend, so
20 we did. We went -- we were touring the United
21 States, we were here on vacation as well. We went
22 away for the week, and came back for the second
23 weekend.
24 Q. Have you seen Michael Jackson’s bedroom at
25 Neverland?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. When did you first see Michael Jackson’s
28 bedroom at Neverland? 9212
1 A. That first weekend when we stayed with him.
2 Q. Ever stayed in that room yourself?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you recall your son staying in Michael
5 Jackson’s room at Neverland?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And explain that, if you would.
8 A. Well, the first -- the first night they had
9 been out doing the usual thing at Neverland,
10 playing. And later that night, they all came back
11 to the suite where my husband and I were staying,
12 and my parents were with us, as well. We were all
13 talking in the suite.
14 And Wade had been impersonating Michael for
15 some time and had lots of costumes of Michael’s that
16 we had made. And Michael was looking at them, and
17 we were just all discussing those.
18 And then it was getting late, and my
19 children said to me, both Chantel and Wade, my
20 daughter, said, “Can we stay with Michael.”
21 And my husband and I sort of looked at
22 Michael, and said, “Well, if that’s okay with you.”
23 And he said, “Oh, absolutely. If they’d like to
24 stay, that’s fine.”
25 Q. And did you allow your son and daughter to
26 stay in his room?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. How many times do you think your son and 9213
1 daughter stayed in his room?
2 A. Many times. I have no idea.
3 Q. Did you ever have a problem with them doing
4 that?
5 A. Not at all.
6 Q. Have you ever traveled with Mr. Jackson?
7 A. Only once. We went to Las Vegas with him.
8 Q. What was the purpose of that trip?
9 A. We went to see Siegfried & Roy.
10 Q. How did you get to Las Vegas for that trip?
11 A. We went on a private jet. I think it
12 belonged to Steve Wynn. We were staying at The
13 Mirage.
14 Q. And did you stay at The Mirage Hotel?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And where did you stay?
17 A. We had a penthouse suite. There were two
18 bedrooms, and I stayed in one of them.
19 Q. And who stayed in the other room?
20 A. Michael and Wade sort of went between both
21 rooms. He did stay in Michael’s room most of the
22 time.
23 Q. And were you ever in Michael’s room on that
24 trip?
25 A. Yes. As a matter of fact, we spent a whole
26 day sitting in bed, the three of us, eating popcorn,
27 watching cartoons.
28 Q. Ever see anything inappropriate happen on 9214
1 that trip?
2 A. Never.
3 Q. Ever see anything inappropriate happen at
4 Neverland?
5 A. Never.
6 Q. Okay. When’s the last time you spoke to
7 Michael Jackson?
8 A. Two weeks ago. We visited his children at
9 Neverland.
10 Q. Okay. And do you consider yourselves
11 friends of the family of Mr. Jackson?
12 A. We consider us very good friends, if not
13 family.
14 Q. Okay. Did Mr. Jackson ever use the word
15 “family” to describe you and your children?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Did you ever have any problem with
18 that?
19 A. Never.
20 Q. Ever seen Mr. Jackson hug your children?
21 A. Mr. Jackson hugs everyone.
22 Q. Ever seen Mr. Jackson kiss your children on
23 the cheek?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you ever have a problem with that?
26 A. No.
27 Q. Ever see Mr. Jackson hold any of your
28 children by the hand? 9215
1 A. I think so, yes.
2 Q. Did you ever have a problem with that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Ever seen Mr. Jackson playing with your
5 children?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what did you see him do?
8 A. He’d play -- I’ve seen him play games,
9 hide-and-seek. I’ve seen them climb trees. I’ve
10 seen them play in the water fort at the ranch. They
11 play constantly.
12 Q. Did you ever have any problem with any of
13 that?
14 A. No. We all did it together often. We
15 were -- all played together.
16 Q. How would you describe Neverland?
17 A. I would have once said the happiest place on
18 earth. I -- I always felt that when we arrived at
19 Neverland, you forgot all your problems, you forgot
20 everything. It seemed like a world on its own. You
21 would drive in there, and it was very serene, very
22 peaceful, very beautiful. Inspirational. And
23 everything was perfect when you drive out and
24 reality would hit again.
25 Q. What did you like to do there?
26 MR. SNEDDON: Object as immaterial, Your
27 Honor.
28 THE COURT: Sustained. 9216
1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: What did you do at
2 Neverland?
3 MR. SNEDDON: Object as immaterial.
4 MR. MESEREAU: They put an issue what
5 Neverland’s all about, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: The objection is overruled.
7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: What did you do at
8 Neverland?
9 A. We watched movies. I particularly liked the
10 chimpanzees. I spent a lot of time playing with the
11 chimps. All the animals, I enjoyed. We would play
12 on the water fort. We’d drive the quads around the
13 hills. Just a fun time always.
14 Q. And did you ever meet someone named Blanca
15 Francia?
16 A. When you say “meet” her, I mean, I knew she
17 was working there, and I basically would say “Good
18 morning” to her if I saw her, but that would be the
19 extent of it.
20 Q. Ever see your son in a shower with Michael
21 Jackson?
22 A. No. Never.
23 Q. Ever seen the Jacuzzi at Neverland?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Ever been in it yourself?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. How many times, do you think?
28 A. Oh. Maybe six or eight times. 9217
1 Q. Now, to your knowledge, has your daughter
2 ever been in Michael Jackson’s room at Neverland?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And did she ever stay over there, to your
5 knowledge?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you have any problem with that?
8 A. Not at all.
9 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions.
10 THE COURT: Cross-examine?
11
12 CROSS-EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. SNEDDON:
14 Q. Good morning.
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. Before you testified here today, did you
17 review any documents?
18 A. I did review my testimony from the grand
19 jury last time, and the civil suit.
20 Q. Mr. Feldman’s grand jury --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- deposition?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Good. I just want to go back and see
25 if we can discuss some of the things you testified
26 about this morning.
27 As I recall, you first met the defendant at
28 a dance contest in Australia, correct? 9218
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And that was in what year?
3 A. That was in 1987.
4 Q. And then your first trip to America was --
5 or maybe not the first trip, but in 1990, in
6 January, you came here with the dance troupe,
7 correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And the time that you met Mr. Jackson in
10 Australia was in connection with your son winning a
11 dance contest?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And the occasion of you meeting Mr. Jackson
14 was you were brought behind the stage with a lot of
15 other people who were back there; is that right?
16 A. It was a meet-and-greet situation, yes.
17 Q. There wasn’t a lot of substance to it?
18 A. No, it was just, “How are you? It’s a
19 pleasure to meet you,” type of thing.
20 Q. Okay. And then the next time that you meet
21 Mr. Jackson is when you come to the United States in
22 January of 1990, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And when you came here, there were no
25 arrangements when you first came here to meet with
26 Mr. Jackson?
27 A. No.
28 Q. And it was as a result of you making contact 9219
1 with Norma Stakos that you were able to make contact
2 with Mr. Jackson, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then you were invited up to the ranch,
5 as I understand it, for a weekend?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. So you weren’t there for an entire week?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Just for the weekend?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And when you went there for the weekend, the
12 first night, your son and daughter spent the night
13 in Mr. Jackson’s bedroom, correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, as I understand it, then, this was only
16 the second time that you had met Mr. Jackson; is
17 that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the first time you’d really met him on a
20 one-on-one personal basis, correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And how old was your son at this time?
23 A. When we were at Neverland?
24 Q. Yes, ma’am.
25 A. He was seven.
26 Q. Seven. How old was your daughter?
27 A. Ten.
28 Q. So your son and your daughter spent the 9220
1 first night with Mr. Jackson, and this was really
2 the first night you’d ever met Mr. Jackson, that’s
3 correct, on a substantive level?
4 A. Well, basically we’d spent the day with him,
5 yes.
6 Q. That was the first time?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, did you know that your son and daughter
9 spent the night with Mr. Jackson in his bed?
10 A. They did not.
11 Q. They did not.
12 A. They slept on the mezzanine level.
13 Q. That’s your belief?
14 A. That’s what they had told me.
15 Q. So that -- if your son testified here in
16 trial yesterday that he slept in the same bed with
17 Michael Jackson with his sister, that would be
18 inconsistent with what he told you before?
19 A. That was the second night.
20 Q. I’m asking you the first night.
21 A. Well, that’s -- what I’ve been told by my
22 daughter and my son was the first night they slept
23 on the mezzanine level.
24 Q. So it would be correct that if your son
25 testified to that yesterday, that on the first night
26 he and his sister slept with Mr. Jackson in Mr.
27 Jackson’s bed, that statement would be inconsistent
28 with what they had told you before? 9221
1 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Improper
2 question, referring to the testimony.
3 THE COURT: I’ll sustain the objection.
4 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: The second night your
5 daughter did not stay with Mr. Jackson?
6 A. She did.
7 Q. The second night also?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Both nights?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you recall telling Mr. Feldman during the
12 deposition that on the second night your daughter
13 did not stay with the defendant?
14 A. Yes, as a matter of fact, when I read that
15 testimony, and my daughter has told me since that my
16 memory was incorrect, that she did stay.
17 Q. So you’re basing your testimony here today
18 on something your daughter told you as opposed to
19 what you recall when you were under oath in a
20 deposition?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, is it your testimony that your husband
23 was present during the first visit?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you go back for a second weekend?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And was there a weekend between, or more
28 than one week in between? 9222
1 A. There was a week in between.
2 Q. So it was the following weekend you went
3 back?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And when you went back on that occasion, who
6 was present from your family?
7 A. My husband, my daughter, my son, and my
8 parents.
9 Q. Now, on the occasion of the first visit,
10 were your husband and your parents with you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you recall testifying at a deposition
13 that your parents and your husband were in San
14 Francisco on a trip the first time you visited the
15 ranch?
16 A. No, they went -- we were all there for the
17 weekend. They left -- we all left and went to
18 San -- no, they went to San Francisco the second
19 week. We went back to Los Angeles with Michael.
20 Q. The question was, do you recall testifying
21 to that?
22 A. I wouldn’t have testified to that.
23 Q. Okay. Now, during that first visit, the
24 first weekend that you were at the ranch, did the
25 subject of your son going on a trip to Japan come
26 up?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. So this would have been on the first day or 9223
1 the second day?
2 A. I don’t recall, I’m sorry.
3 Q. One of those two days, in any case?
4 A. Possibly.
5 Q. And the subject of the conversation was that
6 you had agreed to allow your son to accompany Mr.
7 Jackson on a trip to Japan if they wanted to go,
8 correct?
9 A. I think we talked about it.
10 Q. Well, did you agree to allow him to go with
11 Mr. Jackson on a trip to Japan?
12 A. I can’t remember really. I think I may
13 have, but we decided not to.
14 Q. Mr. Jackson decided he would rather spend
15 time with your son than go to Japan?
16 A. I think the decision was Wade preferred to
17 stay here. Stay at Neverland.
18 Q. So it wasn’t Mr. Jackson’s decision. It was
19 Wade’s decision?
20 A. It was Wade’s decision.
21 Q. Do you recall testifying in the deposition
22 with Mr. Feldman that that was Mr. Jackson’s
23 decision to decide not to go to Japan, because he
24 wanted to stay and have the time with your son?
25 A. I think what happened was that Wade was
26 given the choice.
27 MR. SNEDDON: Move to strike, Your Honor.
28 THE COURT: Stricken. 9224
1 THE WITNESS: I don’t remember testifying to
2 that.
3 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: During the first weekend
4 trip to Neverland, did you go to Toys-R-Us?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Was that the second weekend?
7 A. I never went to Toys-R-Us.
8 Q. Did your children go to Toys-R-Us?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Which one of those weekends did they go?
11 A. I don’t recall.
12 Q. But you do recall a trip?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And they went with Mr. Jackson?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And it was after hours, the store was
17 closed?
18 A. I don’t remember.
19 Q. And they were allowed to buy anything -- or
20 allowed to get anything they wanted and Mr. Jackson
21 paid for it, correct?
22 A. I think so.
23 Q. So as I understand it, then, it’s your
24 testimony that if Mr. Jackson had wanted to go to
25 Japan with your son, on this first time that you’d
26 met him, that you would have allowed that?
27 A. I doubt that --
28 Q. You had agreed to that? 9225
1 A. I don’t think so. I don’t think I would
2 have agreed to that.
3 Q. Do you recall testifying in your deposition
4 that you had agreed to allow him to go to Japan?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You had decided early on in your son’s
7 career, or life, actually, that you wanted to get
8 him into the entertainment business, correct?
9 A. He decided. Not me.
10 Q. Well, he was five years old.
11 A. Yes. He made that decision at five.
12 Q. At five. It was all his decision?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. And you were going to do everything
15 you could as a good mother to try to support that
16 decision, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you felt that your having a good
19 relationship or connection with the defendant in
20 this case could promote that career; isn’t that
21 correct?
22 A. That’s -- you’re putting words in my mouth.
23 I’ve never said that.
24 Q. I didn’t ask you whether you said it or not.
25 I asked you if that’s what you were thinking.
26 A. No.
27 Q. You weren’t thinking that at all?
28 A. Not at all. 9226
1 Q. You weren’t thinking that Mr. Jackson could
2 help propel your son in an entertainment career?
3 A. That was not my motive.
4 Q. I -- I’m not trying to --
5 A. Yes, you are.
6 Q. -- demean your motives.
7 No, I’m not, ma’am. I’m asking a simple
8 question. Did you, in your mind, think that by
9 having a friendship and a connection with Mr.
10 Jackson that could help promote your son’s career?
11 A. I can’t answer that, because I don’t think
12 that that -- you’re make -- you’re trying to make me
13 say that that was my basis for our friendship, and
14 that’s not true.
15 MR. SNEDDON: Move to strike as
16 nonresponsive.
17 THE COURT: Stricken.
18 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: I asked you a question
19 about whose decision it was to cancel the trip to
20 Japan. And I asked you if it was, in fact, Mr.
21 Jackson -- that you had stated previously in your
22 testimony it was Mr. Jackson, and you said you had
23 no recollection of that, correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And did you have a chance to review your
26 deposition for Mr. Feldman prior to coming to court
27 here today?
28 A. I don’t remember reading that. 9227
1 Q. Would it help you to refresh your
2 recollection if I showed you the deposition?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. SNEDDON: With the Court’s permission,
5 Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: You may.
7 MR. SNEDDON: Or Mr. Mesereau? Bob?
8 MR. MESEREAU: That’s okay.
9 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: The procedure is you just
10 read that to yourself quietly, and then I’ll ask you
11 a question, okay? And I want to direct your
12 attention to page 181, and from lines 4 to line 9.
13 And you can read anything else you want.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. Having read that, does that refresh your
16 recollection as to whose idea it was to cancel the
17 trip to Japan?
18 A. Well, it says that Wade was given the
19 choice, and Wade preferred to stay at Neverland.
20 Q. It says, “After the first weekend that we
21 were there, he cancelled the trip because he wanted
22 to stay and spend some time with us,” does it not?
23 A. If you read further down.
24 Q. Yeah, it says, “But he asked to go on this
25 trip with your son,” and “I offered to let Wade go
26 with him”?
27 A. Further.
28 Q. Do you want me to read the whole thing? 9228
1 A. No, just a couple, few more lines.
2 Q. It doesn’t get any better.
3 A. Just a few more lines. It will say exactly
4 what I said.
5 Q. And then Wade had a choice of going to Japan
6 or staying at Neverland, and he chose to stay?
7 A. Yeah. That’s what I said, Wade was given
8 the choice. And he decided to stay at Neverland.
9 Q. But it was the defendant’s choice not to go
10 to Japan, as you testified.
11 A. He had a business trip and he cancelled it,
12 and because Wade decided to stay at Neverland, but
13 it was Wade’s choice.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 After this trip, you went back to Australia,
16 correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And before we get to when you come back,
19 which I think is in May of 1990, correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. I want to ask you a few things about
22 the tour of the house. And when you went to the
23 house at Neverland Ranch, did you go throughout the
24 entire house?
25 A. The first trip?
26 Q. Yes, ma’am.
27 A. Actually, yes.
28 Q. So you were shown the entire house? 9229
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Including Mr. Jackson’s bedroom?
3 A. Well, actually, we arrived before Mr.
4 Jackson, my parents and I. And Mark Quindoy showed
5 us through the house.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. I don’t think we went into Michael’s bedroom
8 initially.
9 Q. At some point during that tour or during
10 that weekend, did you go into Mr. Jackson’s bedroom?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When you go into Mr. Jackson’s bedroom, you
13 walk down a hallway before you get to the entrance
14 to the door to his bedroom, correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And as you go down that hallway and you
17 approach the door, a little chime goes off, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the door cannot be opened from the
20 outside, correct, it’s locked?
21 A. I think so, yes. From memory.
22 Q. Now, when you went through the rest of the
23 house, did you find any chimes that went off in any
24 of the other rooms in the house?
25 A. No.
26 Q. And it’s true, is it not, that none of the
27 other doors in the house had locks on them?
28 A. There was no one else staying in any of the 9230
1 other rooms.
2 Q. No, I asked you whether there were any other
3 rooms in the house where you had to have somebody
4 from inside open the door in order to get into the
5 room?
6 A. No.
7 Q. So you were aware of the fact that at the
8 time that you allowed your children to sleep with
9 Mr. Jackson on the first day or night that you met
10 him, that those children were going to be in a
11 location which you could not get to without somebody
12 from the inside opening the door, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is there something funny about that?
15 A. I just -- it’s not a problem.
16 Q. I can understand. You weren’t concerned
17 about it at all?
18 A. Not at all.
19 Q. Somebody you just met?
20 A. I -- I think there’s a certain trust that we
21 developed immediately. Nothing ever crossed my mind
22 that there would be a problem there.
23 Q. In May, when you came back, it was for the
24 purpose of your son participating in an L.A. Gear
25 commercial?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And who arranged for him to be in that
28 commercial? 9231
1 A. Michael.
2 Q. And Mr. Jackson paid his way over here,
3 correct?
4 A. L.A. Gear paid.
5 Q. And how did you -- how was yours paid?
6 A. L.A. Gear. He was a minor.
7 Q. L.A. Gear paid for that?
8 A. Yes, they have to if a minor’s working.
9 Q. Do you recall testifying at your deposition
10 that that was paid for by Mr. Jackson?
11 A. I testified that L.A. Gear paid for it. I
12 read that when I reviewed it.
13 Q. Now, at the time that you came over here for
14 the L.A. Gear commercial, you were staying in The
15 Holiday Inn?
16 A. Yes. In Westwood.
17 Q. And you were here for approximately six
18 weeks?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And Mr. Jackson had a condo right across the
21 street?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you testified before, I believe, that
24 during that six-week period on at least half of the
25 occasions that your son was with Mr. Jackson in Mr.
26 Jackson’s bedroom in that condo, correct?
27 A. I think so.
28 Q. And on a couple of those occasions, you 9232
1 actually were in the condo with them and you and
2 your daughter, or you, slept on the floor; do you
3 recall that?
4 A. I think that was the first trip that my
5 daughter and I slept on the floor. It wasn’t during
6 that time.
7 Q. The first trip back in January?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was there a time that you visited Mr.
10 Jackson in his condo in January?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, these visits to The Holiday -- these
13 visits to Mr. Jackson when you were staying at The
14 Holiday Inn, many of those calls from Mr. Jackson
15 were very late at night; isn’t that correct?
16 A. Yes, he was working.
17 MR. SNEDDON: Move to strike as
18 nonresponsive, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: I’ll strike the last -- after
20 “Yes.”
21 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: And he would call, and on
22 some occasions you would walk your son across the
23 street, correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you’d leave him there and go back to the
26 hotel?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And there was just he and Mr. Jackson 9233
1 together?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you knew that at that particular point
4 in time, that he was sleeping with Mr. Jackson in
5 Mr. Jackson’s bed, correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When you came over to make the L.A. Gear
8 commercial, did your husband come with you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. At this point in time, were you and your
11 husband separated?
12 A. No.
13 Q. And your daughter didn’t come with you?
14 A. No. She was in school.
15 Q. Okay. Now, during the six-month period, I
16 want to just concentrate on the period that we’re
17 talking about, the May visit, you also visited the
18 ranch on occasion, did you not?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And when you visited the ranch on those
21 occasions, you slept in the guest cottage, correct?
22 A. No, I slept in the house.
23 Q. And where in the house?
24 A. In the rose bedroom. In the rose bedroom.
25 Q. Okay. And your son slept with Mr. Jackson?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Now, do you recall an incident that occurred
28 on Mother’s Day during 1990 on a trip to the ranch? 9234
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you were upset, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you were crying at one point?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And the reason for that was that you had not
7 seen your son all day, correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And it was Mother’s Day?
10 A. That’s right.
11 Q. And you found out that the reason that you
12 hadn’t seen your son that day was because he had
13 been sleeping all day, correct?
14 A. I think so. Yeah.
15 Q. And you spoke to some people at the ranch
16 about your feelings, did you not, one of the
17 employees?
18 A. I think someone asked me if I was okay.
19 Q. And you told them that you felt that your
20 son would rather be with Michael Jackson than with
21 you, correct?
22 A. I don’t remember saying that.
23 Q. Do you know somebody by the name of Charli
24 Michaels?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And who is Charli Michaels?
27 A. I think she worked security at the ranch.
28 Q. And did you tell Charli Michaels that you 9235
1 felt that the defendant, Michael Jackson, was
2 separating you from your son?
3 A. I don’t recall saying it.
4 Q. Do you recall testifying to that in your
5 deposition with Mr. Feldman?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I
8 showed you a copy of the deposition?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. SNEDDON: May I approach, Your Honor?
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 THE WITNESS: Okay.
13 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Does that refresh your
14 recollection?
15 A. I don’t remember saying it, but I testified
16 to it.
17 Q. I’m sorry?
18 A. I said I don’t remember saying it, but
19 obviously I testified back then about it. I don’t
20 remember saying it.
21 Q. You said that Wade would rather be with
22 Michael than with yourself and you were upset about
23 it?
24 A. Well, I read it, but I honestly don’t
25 remember saying it.
26 Q. At the time that you were at the ranch on
27 the first occasions that you were there, to your
28 knowledge, did Michael Jackson have a personal maid? 9236
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And who was that?
3 A. I don’t remember.
4 Q. Do you remember meeting anybody by the name
5 of Blanca Francia?
6 A. I remember her being there. I think she did
7 clean Michael’s room, I think.
8 Q. Now, during the time that you -- let me just
9 go through this real quickly so we can get up to the
10 time frame involved here.
11 You came back in May of 1990, correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you were here for six weeks, correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And then you came back again in February of
16 1991, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. For about seven days?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And during the time that you were here in
21 1991, you spent time on the ranch, correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You and your son?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And then in September 1991 -- well, let me
26 go back. When you came here in February of 1991 for
27 seven days, did your husband come with you?
28 A. No. 9237
1 Q. When you visited in September of 1991, you
2 came permanently, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You had no intention of going back to
5 Australia?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And you had your son and your daughter with
8 you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And your husband did not come?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And at that point you had been separated
13 from your husband?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And then from that point, from September of
16 1991 up till, let’s just say, September 1993 -
17 okay? - the time frame involved, you and your son
18 spent a great deal of time with Michael Jackson, you
19 were around him a lot, correct?
20 A. I don’t think so.
21 Q. You were not at the ranch on a number of
22 occasions during 1991?
23 A. My memory is in the entire time we’ve lived
24 here since 1991, we’ve only been at the ranch with
25 Michael on four occasions in 14 years.
26 Q. Four occasions?
27 A. Every other time we’ve been here without
28 him. 9238
1 Q. Would that be the same for your son?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So --
4 A. He came one -- all the time by himself.
5 Q. You testified that you’ve been out at the
6 ranch on an average of about four times?
7 A. Four times a year, but Michael was never
8 there.
9 Q. Was that all the way through today?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. He’s never there when you go there?
12 A. Very rarely. I can only remember four times
13 in 14 years that we’ve been there with him since we
14 have lived here.
15 Q. So when you were testifying for Mr. Mesereau
16 and you were talking about ever seeing any
17 inappropriate touching, there were only on four
18 occasions that you were even at the ranch to see
19 anything, correct?
20 A. Since we’ve lived here, 1991.
21 Q. You didn’t see anything before that, did
22 you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you recall having a conversation in which
25 you -- with June Chandler? Do you know who June
26 Chandler is?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. June Chandler is whom? 9239
1 A. Jordie Chandler’s mother.
2 Q. You’ve met June Chandler?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You’ve met Jordan Chandler?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Jordan Chandler was at Neverland Valley
7 Ranch at the same time as your son, correct?
8 A. We were all there together on one weekend.
9 Q. Okay. And do you recall testifying to a
10 situation in which your son, Wade, was upset because
11 Jordan Chandler was going to spend the night in
12 Michael Jackson’s room and Wade had to stay with you
13 in the guest cottage?
14 A. I don’t remember that. I remember reading
15 it in my testimony, but I don’t remember him being
16 upset.
17 Q. Maybe I’ll use a different word.
18 Disappointed?
19 A. Possibly.
20 Q. But you do remember the incident?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You don’t?
23 A. No.
24 Q. So when you said you read your transcript,
25 it’s in your transcript, right?
26 A. I read it in the transcript, but it’s 12
27 years ago. I don’t remember it.
28 Q. I understand. Do you have any reason to 9240
1 believe that you would testify to something under
2 oath in a deposition that wasn’t true at the time
3 that you said it?
4 A. No, I just don’t remember it now.
5 Q. Okay. Do you recall a conversation in which
6 you told June Chandler that some day Jordan was
7 going to be replaced by another one of Michael
8 Jackson’s friends?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you referred to these people as “special
11 friends,” correct?
12 A. According to my transcript, yes.
13 Q. You don’t ever remember using that phrase
14 now?
15 A. No.
16 Q. But you did use it in your transcript back
17 in 1993?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And in a conversation you told June Chandler
20 that with these special friends, that when Mr.
21 Jackson moves on to the next special friend, that it
22 has a tremendous emotional impact on the children
23 when they’re no longer the favorite, correct?
24 A. As does everybody when they lose a friend.
25 Q. I’m sorry?
26 A. As does everyone if you lose a friend or a
27 friend becomes friendly with somebody else.
28 Q. Did you not, in that conversation, 9241
1 specifically refer to the situation where a young
2 child was a friend of Mr. Jackson’s and is replaced
3 by another young child and that that has -- and you
4 were reflecting upon the emotional problems it
5 creates for that child?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, during the time that you were at the
8 ranch -- you described a situation this morning for
9 the jury, you told them that when you go to
10 Neverland it’s like walking through a door and you
11 forget all your worries and all your cares.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That’s a paraphrase so....
14 Now, it’s also true that what happens at
15 Neverland Ranch, is it not, that when children come
16 on the ranch, they sort of lose all of their rules
17 and guidelines for conduct?
18 A. Well, that depends on the child.
19 Q. Okay. With regard to the time you were at
20 the ranch, the children that you saw were your
21 son --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- correct?
24 And your daughter, correct?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And you saw Jordan Chandler, correct?
27 A. Once.
28 Q. And you saw Macaulay Culkin? 9242
1 A. I don’t think I’ve been there with Macaulay
2 Culkin.
3 Q. Brett Barnes?
4 A. I’ve never been there with Brett.
5 Q. With regard to the conduct of your son when
6 he was on the ranch, did he get carried away, do
7 things there that he didn’t do other places in terms
8 of manners?
9 A. No.
10 Q. He was perfectly --
11 A. My son was always respectful, always
12 considered it a privilege to be there.
13 Q. Did he ever do anything that you would think
14 that would not be a good thing to do?
15 A. Not that I’m aware of.
16 Q. Are you aware that he was throwing pebbles
17 or rocks at the lions with Mr. Jackson?
18 A. I think that’s been paraphrased. I think
19 what they did is they threw them at the cage, not
20 the lion.
21 MR. SNEDDON: Move to strike as
22 nonresponsive, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Overruled. Next question.
24 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: So you make a distinction
25 between throwing them at the cage and the lion
26 itself?
27 A. Absolutely. They were just trying to make
28 the lion roar. All it did was make a noise. 9243
1 Q. I see. How about -- does your son ride the
2 go-carts there?
3 A. Go-carts or the golf carts?
4 Q. The golf carts.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Ever have any problems with getting in any
7 accidents while he was there or driving too fast or
8 being admonished for driving too fast?
9 A. He may have been admonished for driving
10 fast. He was never in an accident.
11 Q. The other children that I’ve mentioned, did
12 you seem them acting out at all at Neverland Ranch?
13 A. I heard stories. I’ve never seen it.
14 Q. Now, when you testified about Mr. Jackson
15 and his special friends in your deposition, you
16 mentioned that the first of the ones that you knew
17 about was your son Wade in 1990, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And then in 1991 was Macaulay Culkin,
20 correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And in 1992, Brett Barnes, correct?
23 A. I think so.
24 Q. And then in 1993, towards the end, was
25 Jordan Chandler, correct?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. With regard to Brett Barnes, you went to
28 Chicago with your -- or I should ask you this: Did 9244
1 you go to Chicago with your son to shoot a
2 commercial?
3 A. A music video, yes.
4 Q. And did you go there?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And with your son?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And did you meet Brett Barnes there?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And was Brett Barnes with the defendant?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And in fact, Brett Barnes was staying with
13 the defendant in the defendant’s room, correct?
14 A. I don’t know.
15 Q. Did you see whether or not -- did you meet
16 any of the Barnes’ parents there?
17 A. His mother and his sister were there on the
18 set.
19 Q. You sure of that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And was it your -- you became aware of the
22 fact that Mr. Jackson referred to some of these
23 young boys as his cousins, correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you were asked why Mr. Jackson referred
26 to them as his cousins, correct?
27 A. I was asked?
28 Q. Didn’t you say that Mr. Jackson used the 9245
1 term “cousins” because he didn’t want the kids to
2 get jealous of each other?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, do you recall an incident that occurred
5 where you were supposed to catch a plane and you
6 couldn’t find your son?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And the fact is that you hadn’t seen or
9 heard from your son for two or three days?
10 A. I think two.
11 Q. And he had been with Mr. Jackson during that
12 entire time; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And I believe what you said was you were
15 upset and you were hurt by this, correct?
16 A. I don’t remember that.
17 Q. You called a number of people trying to
18 locate your son, correct?
19 A. I was trying to call Michael, and he was in
20 the recording studio, not answering, not receiving
21 phone calls. And I think I called Neverland to see
22 if they had gone to Neverland.
23 Q. Well, you called Neverland and you got the
24 Quindoy -- Mr. Quindoy, correct?
25 A. I don’t remember.
26 Q. Do you know who Mr. Quindoy is?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And you were very upset and wanted your son 9246
1 to be returned so he could make the flight?
2 A. I called to ask if they perhaps were at
3 Neverland. That’s all I remember.
4 Q. You don’t remember saying that you needed
5 your son returned, that you were very upset and you
6 were going to miss the plane?
7 A. No, I don’t.
8 Q. Did you call Norma Stakos trying to locate
9 your son?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So just to recap just a little bit, when you
12 were in Las Vegas, you went there by jet. Do you
13 know whose jet that was?
14 A. Steve Wynn.
15 Q. I’m sorry?
16 A. Steve Wynn’s jet.
17 Q. Steve Wynn. And you went to a hotel?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Which is The Mirage?
20 A. Mirage.
21 Q. And you stayed in a suite?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And except for the night -- or the day when
24 you all stayed in bed watching cartoons, eating
25 popcorn, your son slept with Mr. Jackson and you
26 slept in the other room?
27 A. It was one night, yes.
28 Q. And now, when you came to the United States 9247
1 in 1991, in September, you came here on a --
2 originally you came here on a visa, temporary visa?
3 A. A six-month visitor’s visa.
4 Q. Okay. And your goal was to stay here
5 permanently?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And your goal was that you came because Mr.
8 Jackson had indicated to you that he was going to
9 help your son in his career, correct?
10 A. I’m not sure about that.
11 Q. Do you remember testifying in your
12 deposition that the defendant had arranged deals for
13 Wade with his -- Sony records, Sony movies and Sony
14 T.V.?
15 A. No, that came after the fact. After we’d
16 been here. He didn’t promise anything when we came.
17 He actually came to work on the “Black and White”
18 video.
19 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, move to strike the
20 comments. No question pending.
21 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll object, Your Honor, the
22 prosecutor didn’t allow her to complete her answer.
23 THE COURT: Sustained. The request to
24 strike is denied.
25 MR. MESEREAU: May the witness be allowed to
26 complete her answer, Your Honor?
27 THE COURT: Yes.
28 Do you want your answer read back as far as 9248
1 you gave it?
2 THE WITNESS: No.
3 He came here originally in 1991 to work on
4 the “Black or White” video, and we stayed after
5 that. That was the reason for coming in the first
6 place.
7 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Okay. I want to ask it
8 again, just to be clear.
9 Did Mr. Jackson tell you, before you left
10 Australia, that he would help you in any way he
11 could with his record company, his movie company,
12 and his television company, and these were three
13 deals that he had organized with Sony, correct?
14 A. There were no deals organized. He did say
15 he would do what he could to help, but there were no
16 deals organized.
17 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if you
18 looked at your testimony before the grand jury?
19 A. There were no deals. If I testified -- I
20 don’t think I would have testified to that.
21 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if you
22 looked at it to see whether you testified to that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Okay.
25 Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to
26 what you told the grand jury?
27 A. No. I don’t remember that.
28 Q. You don’t remember telling them that he’d 9249
1 organized three deals for your son?
2 A. Well, he didn’t, so I don’t remember it.
3 Q. But that’s what you said?
4 A. I don’t know what I meant there. There was
5 nothing organized.
6 Q. Did you say in the grand jury that you
7 considered these arrangements to be a personal
8 commitment from Mr. Jackson directly to you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You didn’t say that?
11 A. I don’t remember saying that. There was no
12 commitment.
13 MR. SNEDDON: May I approach, Your Honor?
14 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I
15 showed you your testimony before the grand jury?
16 A. Yes.
17 THE COURT: Yes, you may approach.
18 MR. SNEDDON: May I approach?
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: It’s just one line. Or two
21 lines.
22 Does that refresh your recollection as to
23 what you told the Santa Barbara County Grand Jury?
24 A. No.
25 Q. It does not at all?
26 A. No.
27 Q. But you did say that?
28 A. Obviously I did. I have no memory of it. 9250
1 Q. And when you came here in September 1991,
2 Mr. Jackson also helped you with some rent for the
3 first month, correct?
4 A. That was part of the video -- you’re always
5 housed when you come to work on a music video.
6 Q. I think the question was did Mr. Jackson pay
7 for your rent the first month you were here?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, when you came here in September, you
10 also went to work for MJJ Productions, correct?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You -- let’s see if I get this right. You
13 had a job in a -- cosmetics?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And because you were here on a certain kind
16 of visa, they couldn’t pay you; is that correct?
17 A. They did pay me, but they paid me through
18 Michael Jackson’s company.
19 Q. So your checks were from MJJ Productions?
20 A. Well, that makes it sound like MJJ
21 Productions was paying me. They were not.
22 Q. I just -- the question was, the checks came
23 from MJJ Productions?
24 A. They were diverted through Michael Jackson’s
25 company.
26 Q. In other words, your company would pay them
27 the money, and then Mr. Jackson’s company would pay
28 you the money? 9251
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Just in all fairness. I’m not trying to
3 trick you.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. And that arrangement was worked out with the
6 approval and the help of Mr. Jackson, correct?
7 A. I think so. I’m -- I mean, I didn’t speak
8 to him about it. I spoke to Norma Stakos about it.
9 Q. Do you recall telling and testifying to the
10 fact that what actually happened in September of
11 1991 is that Mr. Jackson was your sponsor when you
12 came to the United States with your son?
13 A. Not initially. We were here for six months
14 and then he offered, he offered to sponsor after we
15 arrived.
16 Q. You mentioned to this jury that at some
17 point in time, you realized that your son was
18 spending time in bed with Mr. Jackson, correct,
19 sleeping in the same bed with Mr. Jackson?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Okay. And in fact, you indicated in prior
22 testimony that you realized that and knew that early
23 on in the relationship between your son and Mr.
24 Jackson, correct?
25 A. Correct.
26 Q. Okay. We’re almost done.
27 Let’s fast-forward a little bit to 1993.
28 You were -- you were at the ranch in 1993 and Jordan 9252
1 Chandler was there, correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And in 1993, that was the occasion of you
4 having the conversation with Mrs. Chandler that
5 you’ve described to the ladies and gentlemen of the
6 jury previously, correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And during this particular point in time,
9 not January, but in 1993, at some point, your son
10 was in the process of putting together an album deal
11 where he -- he or somebody with him would cut some
12 records, correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And the negotiations began on that deal
15 when?
16 A. From memory, June of ‘93.
17 Q. And I think you described that process as
18 about a six-month process?
19 A. Well, it varies. But that one took that
20 long, yes.
21 Q. And the deal was finally signed on December
22 6th, 1993, correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. And the deal was signed with -- with MJJ
25 Productions, correct?
26 A. Correct.
27 Q. And in the deal, your son -- not your son --
28 the total deal was for $100,000, correct? 9253
1 A. The production company.
2 Q. Right. And your son’s share of that was
3 $30,000?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And 15,000 of that was given as an advance?
6 A. I think so.
7 Q. And this was in December of 1993, correct?
8 A. I don’t really remember. I think according
9 to the transcripts that’s what it said.
10 Q. And you took -- well, let me go back. There
11 was a period of time -- where were you on
12 Thanksgiving? Do you remember where you went
13 Thanksgiving? Did you go to New York Thanksgiving?
14 A. I read the transcript. We were in New York
15 recording.
16 Q. Okay. With who?
17 A. With the production company and they were
18 recording for the album.
19 Q. Okay. And up until the point of
20 Thanksgiving of 1993, the record deal had not been
21 finalized yet between your son and their
22 representatives and Mr. Jackson’s company, correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. And there had been -- there had been some
25 delay in the signing of the contracts, correct?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And one of the things that had happened in
28 between the time that you first started negotiating 9254
1 the contracts in June or July and December 6 when
2 you finally signed the contract with Mr. Jackson’s
3 company was that Jordan Chandler had gone to the
4 Department of Social Services in the Los Angeles
5 District Attorney’s Office and reported that he’d
6 been molested by Michael Jackson, correct?
7 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Objection;
8 assumes facts not in evidence.
9 MR. SNEDDON: I’m asking what she’s aware
10 of, Your Honor, and it has to do with motive and
11 bias.
12 THE COURT: Just a moment.
13 MR. MESEREAU: No foundation.
14 THE COURT: The objection is overruled.
15 You may answer.
16 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: You were aware of that,
17 were you not?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And in fact -- well, let me ask you this:
20 You know a person, or knew a person by the name of
21 Anthony Pellicano, did you not?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And Mr. Pellicano was Mr. Jackson’s private
24 investigator, correct?
25 A. Correct.
26 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; beyond the scope.
27 THE COURT: Overruled.
28 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: And Mr. Pellicano was the 9255
1 one who was holding up the deal, correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. He told you that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And the deal was finally signed on December
6 6th because the defendant intervened and said, “Go
7 ahead and sign the deal,” correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. In the meantime, Mr. Pellicano had given you
10 a $12,000 loan, correct?
11 A. 10,000.
12 Q. 10,000, you’re right. Absolutely. Pardon
13 me. $10,000 loan?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And did you ever repay that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When?
18 A. I don’t remember.
19 Q. Do you have any proof?
20 A. Probably. I don’t remember when it was.
21 Q. When’s the last time you saw Mr. Pellicano?
22 A. I haven’t seen him since. I have not seen
23 him since ‘93.
24 Q. Since ‘93. So it’s your testimony you paid
25 him back in ‘93?
26 A. It was sometime after that.
27 Q. Mr. Pellicano was Mr. Jackson’s investigator
28 and you had at least four conversations with him, 9256
1 interviews, you and your son, correct?
2 A. Probably.
3 Q. And that was after Mr. Jackson got back in
4 December of 1993?
5 A. I don’t remember.
6 Q. You were asked by Mr. Feldman to give a
7 statement to an investigator, and you refused -- for
8 his office, and you refused to do that, didn’t you?
9 A. I don’t remember. I’m sorry.
10 Q. Do you remember the Los Angeles Police
11 Department coming to your apartment?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you didn’t give them a statement either,
14 did you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You gave them a very brief one and then said
17 you had to go somewhere. Isn’t that what happened?
18 A. No, they were trying to interview Wade
19 without me and I told them they were not to do that.
20 Q. Was there some concern on your part that
21 trained law enforcement officers shouldn’t talk to
22 somebody who could possibly be a suspect (sic) of a
23 crime?
24 A. I was concerned of manipulation.
25 Q. That the consequence, law enforcement would
26 manipulate your son?
27 A. Absolutely.
28 Q. You felt that your son could be manipulated 9257
1 easily?
2 A. No, but I wasn’t going to take that chance.
3 He was ten.
4 Q. You weren’t concerned about the fact that
5 the defendant in this case, Mr. Jackson, might
6 manipulate your son?
7 A. No concern at all that he would manipulate
8 my son.
9 Q. But two law enforcement officers, you
10 thought they would?
11 A. Possibly. I don’t know them. I know Mr.
12 Jackson.
13 Q. Okay. Now, you received another -- you
14 received actually a loan from Mr. Jackson for
15 $10,000 in 1992, correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You never paid that one back?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And did you receive another loan from Mr.
20 Jackson after the record contract was signed?
21 A. I don’t think so.
22 Q. Do you recall telling an investigator that
23 you had gotten a loan from Mr. Jackson for $10,000
24 and you tried to buy a car? Do you remember that?
25 A. He paid -- he paid for the balance of the
26 car.
27 Q. Mr. Jackson did?
28 A. Yes. 9258
1 Q. That was $10,000?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, in December of 1993, after the
4 allegations with Jordan Chandler had surfaced, Mr.
5 Jackson came back to the United States, correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And on -- to your knowledge, on the very
8 first night he was back he called your son, correct?
9 A. He called me.
10 Q. He called you?
11 A. I think so. From memory.
12 Q. Do you remember testifying that you weren’t
13 at the house when the call was made, that you were
14 out with some ladies?
15 A. I do remember reading that, I’m sorry.
16 Q. So you weren’t there?
17 A. Possibly.
18 Q. You came home, and then both of you, late in
19 the night, drove to Neverland Valley Ranch, correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. When you got to Neverland Valley Ranch, it
22 was about 1:30 in the morning, correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. When you got there, you went to the guest
25 quarters and your son went to Mr. Jackson’s bedroom,
26 correct?
27 A. I don’t remember where I slept, but he did
28 go to Michael’s bedroom. 9259
1 Q. But he went inside the house?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Where was your son going to school when
4 school started in September of 1993?
5 A. I think he was doing home schooling by then.
6 Q. Do you remember him at some point in time
7 going to school with a family named the Kennedys?
8 A. No.
9 Q. He had a close friend?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you remember a young boy by the name of
12 Teja, T-e-j-a?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Is the reason that you took your son out of
15 school because the kids at school had found out that
16 he had been sleeping with Michael Jackson and they
17 were making cruel statements about him?
18 A. I took Wade out of school after the fourth
19 grade. He was -- it was before any of this
20 surfaced.
21 Q. So he was not in school during the fifth and
22 sixth grades in the valley?
23 A. Never been in school in the valley.
24 MR. SNEDDON: Okay. May I have a moment?
25 Excuse me just a second, Your Honor, I’m
26 trying to find a report.
27 Okay, let’s just do it this way. Ahh, here
28 it is. 9260
1 Q. Kenneth Clark, I’m sorry. Do you know
2 Kenneth Clark.
3 A. No.
4 Q. You don’t remember Kenneth Anthony Clark
5 being a good friend of your son’s?
6 A. Never heard of him.
7 Q. Did your son ever go to Garden Street School
8 in West Hollywood?
9 A. He went there for the fourth grade.
10 Q. Just the fourth grade?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Not the fourth, fifth and sixth grades?
13 A. No. He started with Laurel Springs School
14 when he was -- when he got the record deal.
15 Q. Yeah, 1993.
16 A. He was fifth grade.
17 Q. So it’s your testimony that your son was
18 only there in the fourth grade?
19 A. From memory. Maybe part of fifth.
20 Q. And is your testimony that your son never
21 received -- that the home school didn’t start at
22 Laurel Springs because of the fact that your son was
23 being teased at school because people found out he
24 was sleeping in bed with Mr. Michael Jackson?
25 A. He’s never been teased at school. He
26 started home-schooling because he was a recording
27 artist and could not be in school. He was
28 traveling. 9261
1 Q. I just asked you is that the case?
2 A. That’s the absolute case.
3 MR. SNEDDON: Okay. Thank you. No further
4 questions.
5 THE COURT: Redirect?
6 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, please, Your Honor.
7
8 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. MESEREAU:
10 Q. Miss Robson, in response to the prosecutor’s
11 questions with regard to manipulation you said, “I
12 know Mr. Jackson.” Do you remember saying that?
13 A. Absolutely.
14 Q. Please tell the jury what you meant by that.
15 A. Well, I’ve known Michael for a long time. I
16 know him very well. I’ve spent many hours talking
17 to him about everything. I feel like he’s a member
18 of my family. I know him very well. I trust him.
19 I trust him with my children.
20 Q. Why?
21 A. Because Michael is a very special person.
22 Unless you know him, it’s hard to understand. He’s
23 not the boy next door. He’s Michael Jackson. He’s
24 very -- he’s just a very unique personality. He
25 loves children. And he has a very pure love for
26 children. And to know him is to love him and to
27 trust him.
28 Q. And when did you begin to know Michael 9262
1 Jackson?
2 A. I felt like I knew him from the very
3 beginning. He just has that wonderful way of making
4 you feel at home; that I felt like I knew him very
5 early on.
6 But particularly in the two years when we
7 were living in Australia before we moved here, and I
8 talked to him every day. We had very long
9 conversations about everything that was going on in
10 his life and my life and my children’s lives. And
11 you get to know someone very well when you talk to
12 someone several hours a day over a two-year period.
13 And then once we moved here, too, we
14 continued that. We’ve always been able to talk
15 about just about anything.
16 Q. Now, the prosecutor asked you about Mother’s
17 Day at Neverland?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Remember that?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. And you learned that Wade and Mr. Jackson
22 were in a recording studio that day, correct?
23 A. Not that day. That was -- that was the time
24 that we were staying in Westwood, and Wade and I had
25 our ticket booked to return to Australia. And he
26 had been at the recording studio with Michael for a
27 couple of days, and I just hadn’t heard from them.
28 I know that they were working long hours, and then 9263
1 they’d take off again the next day. And I was
2 getting --
3 MR. SNEDDON: Move to strike as a narrative,
4 Your Honor. Objection.
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember anything
7 else about that day at the recording studio?
8 A. No, just -- I had called Norma looking for
9 him, and she found them. She said they were in the
10 recording studio and, “Michael is bringing him back
11 to you. They’re on their way.”
12 Q. To your knowledge, did your son spend a lot
13 of time with Michael Jackson at recording studios?
14 A. Often, yes.
15 Q. And why was that?
16 A. Because Wade was interested in being a
17 recording artist, he was interested in being a
18 producer. He was learning. He loved to be around
19 that and absorb that. He was like a sponge. And
20 he -- that was the relationship that he and Michael
21 had. It was -- a lot of it was a working
22 relationship and Michael was teaching him.
23 Q. Now, the prosecutor asked you questions
24 suggesting that you were allowing your son to be
25 with Michael just to further his career. Is that
26 true?
27 A. Absolutely not.
28 Q. What do you mean? 9264
1 A. He was -- as I say, he was learning things
2 from Michael. Michael was teaching him everything
3 he knew, and he couldn’t -- that was part of the
4 friendship, but it was more of a friendship than
5 anything else. And I certainly never asked Michael
6 for anything where my son’s career was concerned.
7 I believe in my son, and I moved here for
8 him to further his career. I believed that he could
9 do that.
10 MR. SNEDDON: Objection, Your Honor,
11 narrative.
12 THE COURT: Sustained.
13 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you allow your son to
14 spend time with Michael Jackson learning the
15 entertainment business?
16 A. Absolutely.
17 Q. Why did you do that?
18 A. Because he was learning from the best.
19 Michael offered to teach him everything he could.
20 He believed in him, so why would I not?
21 Q. Now, your son has had a pretty successful
22 entertainment career so far, right?
23 A. He has.
24 Q. And has he worked exclusively with Michael
25 Jackson or has he done other things on his own?
26 A. He’s done most of it on his own.
27 Q. What has he done?
28 A. He’s become a choreographer. He started -- 9265
1 MR. SNEDDON: Object as immaterial, Your
2 Honor.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Well, the prosecutor
5 suggested that you were making decisions about what
6 to do with your children because Michael Jackson
7 could help their careers, correct?
8 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
9 object as argumentative and leading.
10 THE COURT: Sustained.
11 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever allow Wade to
12 be with Michael Jackson only because Michael Jackson
13 could help his career?
14 MR. SNEDDON: Object as leading.
15 THE COURT: Overruled.
16 You may answer.
17 THE WITNESS: Never. We were friends first.
18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Why did you allow Wade to
19 spend a lot of time with Michael Jackson?
20 MR. SNEDDON: Object.
21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Please tell the jury.
22 MR. SNEDDON: Asked and answered.
23 THE COURT: Overruled.
24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Please tell that to the
25 jury.
26 A. They enjoyed each other. They -- they were
27 very similar people. I remember Michael telling me
28 early on that it was like looking in the mirror, he 9266
1 saw himself all over again. His interest was
2 because he saw Wade’s potential. And Wade loved
3 everything that Michael did and wanted to learn as
4 much as he could.
5 Q. Did you ever lose your trust in Michael
6 Jackson during any point in time that your son was
7 with him?
8 A. Never.
9 Q. Did Mr. Jackson ever do anything that made
10 you suspicious about his behavior towards your son
11 Wade?
12 A. Never.
13 Q. Did Mr. Jackson ever do anything that made
14 you suspicious about his behavior towards your
15 daughter?
16 A. Never.
17 Q. Now, the prosecutor asked you questions
18 about children being jealous if Michael Jackson had
19 another friend who was a child. Do you remember
20 those questions?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Please tell the jury what you meant.
23 A. It’s like any child who has a favorite uncle
24 or someone in the family that everyone wants to be
25 around.
26 And Michael’s the sort of person that
27 everybody wants to be around. He has that sort of
28 aura. So naturally, when he was spending time with 9267
1 one child, another child would be jealous. It’s the
2 same in any family, if you spend time with one child
3 more than the other.
4 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
5 object.
6 THE COURT: Sustained.
7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: The prosecutor asked you
8 questions about Michael Jackson having special
9 friends who were children. Do you remember that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what did you mean by that?
12 A. Well, you know, there would be people who
13 would spend time with him at particular times more
14 so than others.
15 It didn’t mean that he didn’t still spend
16 time with all of them. They were all friends of
17 his. But when he spent particularly more time with
18 one than the other, then they were special for the
19 time.
20 Q. Based upon what you’ve observed of Mr.
21 Jackson, would it be accurate to say that all over
22 the world children flock to him, don’t they?
23 A. Absolutely.
24 MR. SNEDDON: Object. Immaterial; leading.
25 THE COURT: Overruled. The answer is in.
26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: And have you seen children
27 from time to time get jealous because Mr. Jackson is
28 being nice to another child? 9268
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Has that ever appeared unusual to you?
3 A. Not at all.
4 Q. Did you ever see something that you thought
5 was very suspicious when one child would get jealous
6 of Mr. Jackson’s attention to another child?
7 A. No, I think that’s normal with children.
8 Q. When you used the term “special friends,”
9 what did you mean?
10 A. I think just the one that he was spending
11 time with for now. That he considered all of his
12 friends special.
13 I don’t know why I would have said that.
14 I don’t remember saying “special.” But I imagine it
15 would have meant just the child that he was spending
16 time with now.
17 Q. When you used the term “special friends,”
18 did you mean to suggest anything criminal was going
19 on?
20 A. Absolutely not.
21 Q. When you used the term “special friends,”
22 did you mean to suggest that anything sexual was
23 going on?
24 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, that’s a leading
25 question. I object.
26 THE COURT: Sustained.
27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: The word “special,” you
28 used that term, right? 9269
Subject: May 6, 2005 
Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:51 am
