1 A. Maybe in the kitchen. I can’t remember.
2 Q. Do you know who they asked if they could
3 stay in Michael Jackson’s room when Michael wasn’t
4 there?
5 A. I believe his name is Joe. He’s the guy
6 who’s always there.
7 Q. And do you recall what he said?
8 A. He said no.
9 Q. And do you know where the kids stayed --
10 excuse me, the Arvizo children stayed that night?
11 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, that’s been asked
12 and answered.
13 THE COURT: Sustained.
14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever learn that a
15 rebuttal documentary with Maury Povich appeared on
16 television?
17 A. Yes, we watched it that night.
18 Q. And who is “we”?
19 A. It was myself and my son, the three
20 children, Marie Nicole, Marlon Brando’s son, and I
21 don’t know if some of his children were there or
22 not.
23 Q. Did you watch the rebuttal show with Maury
24 Povich at Neverland?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Okay. And did you notice that the Arvizos
27 were not in that show?
28 A. Yes. 11234
1 Q. Did you say Janet was there?
2 A. No, she was not.
3 Q. Okay. Okay. Just a few more questions.
4 May I just take a minute, Your Honor, just
5 to --
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you recall Janet ever
8 discussing whether or not Michael Jackson was going
9 to set up a college fund for her children?
10 A. Can you repeat that?
11 Q. Sure. Do you recall whether or not Janet
12 ever discussed words to the effect that Michael was
13 going to set up a college fund for her children?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When did this discussion take place?
16 A. I believe it was in the conversation that I
17 had with her two or three weeks after the interview.
18 We covered many grounds during that phone
19 conversation.
20 Q. This is after the interview --
21 A. With the social workers.
22 Q. Okay. Did she tell you that she thought a
23 college fund was being set up for her son?
24 A. No. She didn’t tell me that there was a
25 college fund being set up. She said there was
26 mention of a college fund.
27 Q. And did she want one?
28 A. No. 11235
1 Q. What did she say?
2 A. Her exact words were she doesn’t even know
3 if her son is going to be alive in ten years; “What
4 is a college fund going to do for him?”
5 Q. Did she say she wanted anything?
6 A. She didn’t say she wanted anything.
7 Q. Okay. Did you think she was suggesting she
8 wanted money?
9 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
10 object. Calls for opinion, speculation.
11 THE COURT: Sustained.
12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever have a
13 discussion with Janet about her hiring a lawyer to
14 sue the people who did the Bashir documentary?
15 A. Yes. I asked her -- I’m sorry. Just one
16 moment.
17 I don’t know if I asked her if she has an
18 attorney and whether she should look into legal
19 action against Martin Bashir, but I asked her, “Has
20 anyone spoke on compensating you for this?” And
21 that’s when she mentioned the college fund to me.
22 Q. But did she indicate she wanted compensation
23 of any kind, to you?
24 A. She indicated that a college fund wasn’t
25 going to do her son any good when he might not even
26 be alive in ten years.
27 Q. Okay. Did you suggest to her that she get
28 an attorney to try to get compensation? 11236
1 A. I may have. I don’t remember clearly, but I
2 probably did.
3 Q. Did Janet ever talk to you about whether she
4 should sign a release form?
5 A. I asked her did she sign a release form.
6 Q. And when was this?
7 A. During the same conversation.
8 Q. Okay. And again, when did this conversation
9 take place?
10 A. Two to three weeks after the interview.
11 Q. Okay. And did she say she had signed a
12 release?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did she say she hadn’t?
15 A. Yes, she said she had not signed one.
16 Q. Okay. Did you have any further discussion
17 with Janet about the fact that her family had been
18 interviewed?
19 A. I’m sorry, can you repeat that?
20 Q. Yes. Did you have --
21 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object to the
22 question as assuming facts not in evidence with
23 regard to -- can’t do any more than that, but it’s
24 unclear, vague as to time, and also as to which
25 conversation.
26 MR. MESEREAU: I think it is vague. I’ll
27 rephrase it.
28 Q. After the interview with the three social 11237
1 workers, and after the Arvizo family had been
2 interviewed for the rebuttal show, did you have any
3 further discussion with Janet about that rebuttal
4 show?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you ever talk to Janet about the fact
7 that you watched the Maury Povich rebuttal show with
8 her children?
9 A. No, not that I can remember.
10 Q. So do you recall Janet ever commenting on
11 that show at any time?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did Janet ever mention anything to you about
14 phone calls being monitored at Neverland?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Ever tell you she thought she couldn’t talk
17 because her phone calls were being listened in to?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did Janet ever talk to you about going
20 shopping?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did Davellin ever mention the names of any
23 young women who went to Neverland with her?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Ever mention the name of a woman named
26 Adrianna or --
27 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
28 object as leading and suggestive. 11238
1 THE COURT: I didn’t hear the end of the
2 question.
3 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll restate it.
4 Q. To your knowledge, did Gavin ever invite a
5 female to Neverland?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And when was this?
8 A. This was before the interview with the
9 social workers.
10 Q. Okay. And how did you learn about that?
11 A. They told me about it.
12 Q. Who is “they”?
13 A. Gavin and Davellin and Star.
14 Q. And --
15 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to move to strike
16 based on hearsay.
17 THE COURT: Stricken.
18 Let’s take a break.
19 (Recess taken.)
20 THE COURT: Counsel?
21 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.
22 Q. Miss Pryor, you said that when you were at
23 Neverland with the Arvizo children, you walked
24 around the property, right?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And do you recall ever going into the
27 theater?
28 A. Yes. 11239
1 Q. And did you go into the theater with the
2 Arvizo children?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you recall ever going into a dance
5 studio?
6 A. I didn’t go in, but I looked in it.
7 Q. Okay. Now, when you looked in it, was it
8 locked?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And did somebody unlock the door?
11 A. No. No one had a key. There was, like, a
12 keypad on the door.
13 Q. Okay. And did someone know the combination?
14 A. Yes, Star opened it.
15 Q. Okay. Did you ever see Star open any other
16 combinations at Neverland?
17 A. Just the dance studio and the main house.
18 Q. Did you ever see Gavin open any combination
19 locks at Neverland?
20 A. Just the main house.
21 Q. Okay. Did Star and Gavin tell you they knew
22 the combinations?
23 A. Star didn’t. He opened the dance studio
24 door. He said no one should be in there.
25 Q. And did he tell you how he learned the
26 combination?
27 A. No.
28 Q. Did Janet ever complain to you about her 11240
1 children drinking alcohol at Neverland?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did she ever mention anything about her
4 children drinking alcohol at Neverland?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you recall Janet ever commenting about
7 people making millions of dollars off of her son?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What did she say about that?
10 A. She said everyone around them was making
11 millions of dollars off of the video. They
12 didn’t -- she didn’t specifically say her sons, but
13 off of this documentary.
14 Q. Did she complain that she wasn’t making
15 millions?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Was that the implication you got from her
18 comment?
19 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
20 object to the question. It’s asked and answered;
21 leading; speculation.
22 THE COURT: Sustained.
23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did Janet ever complain
24 that she and her children were beaten up by a group
25 of white boys?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. What did she say about that?
28 A. This was during one of the times when she 11241
1 was telling me what a horrible husband David was,
2 and she told me that David had stood there and
3 watched while some white boys beat up her and her
4 children, her and her two sons.
5 Q. Did she ever mention any lawsuit?
6 A. No.
7 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor, I’d like to show
8 the witness a document that’s been marked as Exhibit
9 No. 5095, if I may.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach?
12 THE COURT: Yes.
13 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you.
14 Q. Miss Pryor, have you seen that --
15 A. Yes, I have.
16 Q. -- document before?
17 And what is that?
18 A. It’s a letter to me from Davellin.
19 Q. And if you look at the bottom, you see some
20 driver’s license information. Do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is that all part of the same document?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. Did you receive that document?
25 A. Yes, I did.
26 Q. And did Davellin send it to you?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Do you know why? 11242
1 A. From the looks of it, to give me her
2 mother’s license information.
3 Q. And do you know approximately when she sent
4 you that driver’s license information?
5 A. It’s hard to see here, but I can remember
6 from seeing the letter. It was dated February 13th.
7 Q. Do you know what year that probably was?
8 A. 2003.
9 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. I move this document
10 into evidence, Your Honor.
11 MR. SNEDDON: No objection.
12 THE COURT: It’s admitted.
13 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach and retrieve
14 it?
15 THE COURT: Yes.
16 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, could we have the
17 screen to the Elmo?
18 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, may we approach on
19 the display of this exhibit?
20 THE COURT: Because of address information?
21 MR. SNEDDON: The DMV information on it,
22 yes. I don’t believe that should be public.
23 MR. MESEREAU: We will not display that
24 information.
25 Q. Davellin -- “Davellin.” Miss Pryor,
26 Davellin sent you her mother’s driver’s license
27 information, right?
28 A. Yes. 11243
1 Q. She sent you her mother’s address, right?
2 A. I believe it was her grandmother’s address.
3 Q. And she sent her mother’s birthday
4 information, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And she sent her driver’s license
7 information, right?
8 A. Yes, she did.
9 Q. And was that in relation to the
10 conversations you had -- excuse me. Was that in
11 relation to the many conversations you had about
12 their wanting a car?
13 A. Yes, it was.
14 Q. Did you ask for Janet Ventura’s driver’s
15 license information?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you know Davellin was going to send you
18 Janet Ventura’s driver’s license information?
19 A. No.
20 Q. What was your reaction when you received it?
21 A. I guess it was -- I knew that they wanted
22 the car, so it didn’t really surprise me, even
23 though she didn’t tell me she was sending it, but it
24 didn’t really surprise me.
25 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions.
26 MR. SNEDDON: Would you leave that exhibit
27 there for a second?
28 11244
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. SNEDDON:
3 Q. Good afternoon.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. Miss Pryor, I just want to ask you a few
6 questions. I won’t be long.
7 A. All right.
8 Q. With regard to your relationship with the
9 Arvizo family - okay? - I believe you’ve indicated
10 in the past that you found the family to be a very
11 affectionate family, correct?
12 A. Yes, very much so.
13 Q. And in fact, Davellin used, as you’ve
14 indicated, the term “sister” in relationship to
15 describe her relationship with you.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And they were a family that would like to
18 hug people even the first time they met them,
19 correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And some people, who aren’t familiar with
22 the family or the way they behaved, sometimes took
23 that the wrong way?
24 A. I don’t know.
25 Q. Okay. But you didn’t take -- it didn’t
26 bother you that they hugged you?
27 A. Not at all.
28 Q. Okay. And you knew that they were a 11245
1 religious family, correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. They would use the term “God bless” a lot to
4 express thanksgiving for things?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you, in fact, went over to pray one time
7 with Janet, correct?
8 A. Yes. Yes.
9 Q. Now, when you went to the Soto Street
10 apartment, that was a -- to call it an apartment may
11 even be misleading. It was a one-room apartment,
12 correct?
13 A. Correct. It was a studio apartment.
14 Q. There was no bedroom in it. Everybody was
15 in one room, correct?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Did you observe mattresses on the floor?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the room was divided off with sheets
20 hanging up just to partition it into certain areas?
21 A. I never saw any sheets.
22 Q. So you just saw mattresses on the floor?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And it was your understanding that everybody
25 was sleeping in that one room, correct?
26 A. Correct.
27 Q. Now, you’ve described how you met Janet
28 Arvizo for the first time, and you’ve described some 11246
1 of your relationships with the children. I’d like
2 to just review some of this, if we can.
3 You indicated that you and Chris Tucker and
4 your son visited Gavin in the hospital on New Year’s
5 Eve, correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Actually, it was -- it was the next year,
8 right?
9 A. New Year’s day, yes.
10 Q. New Year’s day. But it was early in the
11 morning?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. So you got there just in time to be there
14 for the year 2001, correct?
15 A. Right. We got there on January 1st, 2001.
16 Q. Yes, ma’am. When you got there, you
17 actually -- Janet was not there?
18 A. No, she was not.
19 Q. But you did talk to her on the phone,
20 correct?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. And when you talked to her on the phone, she
23 thanked you for everything you had done for Gavin,
24 right?
25 A. Yes, for her family.
26 Q. For her family. And she said that -- even
27 in that conversation, though she had never met you,
28 she said she loved you for what you had done for 11247
1 them?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Now, you talked about Knott’s Berry Farm and
4 you talked about the premier and the Oakland game,
5 but let me ask you another thing about this.
6 Was there an occasion when Chris Tucker’s
7 brother got married?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And did you go to that wedding?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And did you invite the Arvizo children to go
12 with you?
13 A. I don’t remember if I did or Chris did, but
14 one of us did.
15 Q. But the Arvizo children went with you to
16 Chris Tucker’s brother’s wedding, correct?
17 A. No, they came in their mother’s car.
18 Q. Okay. I’m sorry. But they were there
19 because you invited them?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Either you or Chris?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And they were there as your guests?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You were with Chris?
26 A. Uh-huh.
27 Q. And was -- were there a lot of people at
28 this wedding? Was it a big wedding? 11248
1 A. There were about 60 people altogether.
2 Q. Okay. And where was it held?
3 A. In Pasadena.
4 Q. At a private club?
5 A. It was at a residence.
6 Q. At a residence?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. A nice residence?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And then you invited them to your son’s
11 birthday party at the ranch?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And was there an occasion where you actually
14 stayed at the ranch with the children for about a
15 week after the birthday party?
16 A. No.
17 Q. So to your knowledge, was Chris Tucker there
18 with them for about a week during the summer?
19 A. I have no idea.
20 Q. Okay. You weren’t there if they were?
21 A. I wasn’t there.
22 Q. Okay, fine. Now, Davellin -- Davellin --
23 A. Davellin.
24 Q. -- called you her big sister, right?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Did you call her your little sister?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And it’s clear you have a very strong 11249
1 affection for Davellin and the boys. And she did
2 stay at your house on occasion?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you find her helpful when she stayed at
5 the house in playing with your son and helping take
6 care of your son?
7 A. Yes. She’s very nurturing. Very sweet
8 girl.
9 Q. Very loving girl?
10 A. Very loving.
11 Q. Somebody you really cared for a lot?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And still do?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. SNEDDON: Hand me that pen.
16 Q. Now, you told us about attending Davellin’s
17 graduation from the academy.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The Explorer academy. And when you attended
20 that graduation, did you sit with Janet Arvizo?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. And it’s true, is it not, that on that
23 particular occasion, you actually observed bruises
24 and injuries on Mrs. Arvizo’s person, correct?
25 A. Yes, I did.
26 Q. Now, Mr. Mesereau asked you about this
27 conversation about Gavin hurting his arm and the
28 conversation about the glove. Do you remember that? 11250
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And do you remember you saying to Janet if
3 she needed some equipment, you’d give her the
4 equipment; you’d give her the money to get the
5 equipment, correct?
6 A. I said if she needed anything, just to ask,
7 and if I could do it, I would help her.
8 Q. Did she ever ask you to buy any equipment
9 for the family?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Now, let’s talk a little bit about the DSS
12 meeting that you went to with Miss Arvizo.
13 You had had at least, as I recall your
14 testimony, at least two conversations with her prior
15 to the time that you went to the St. Andrews Street
16 address on the 20th, correct?
17 A. I’m sure I had more than two conversations.
18 Q. I said at least two.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And one was the night before where she gave
21 you directions on how to get there?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And one was before that in which she
24 expressed to you that there was going to be some
25 kind of a meeting with DSS?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And when she talked to you about that, she
28 told you that she was really scared about the 11251
1 meeting, correct?
2 A. She didn’t say she was really scared about
3 the meeting. She was afraid that her children may
4 be taken from her. I don’t know if she was afraid
5 it was going to happen at that meeting, but just the
6 whole surroundings of this documentary and actually
7 someone calling and reporting her to Social Services
8 was scary for her.
9 Q. Okay. So she was very concerned about
10 whether or not they might take her children from
11 her?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you knew that that was her mindset
14 before she went into that interview?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And the concern was directly related to, as
17 you understand, directly related to the fact that
18 Gavin had appeared with the defendant, Michael
19 Jackson, in the Bashir video, correct?
20 A. Can you repeat that? I’m sorry.
21 Q. Yes, ma’am. The concern of Mrs. Arvizo was
22 that the DSS folks had focused on the fact that
23 Gavin had appeared in the Bashir video, correct?
24 A. I don’t know if that was her main concern.
25 I’m sure that had something to do with it since it
26 seems like this investigation had arisen since the
27 documentary aired. But I don’t know if that was her
28 main concern, just because her son had appeared in a 11252
1 video with Michael Jackson.
2 Q. Had you seen the video before you went to
3 the DSS meeting?
4 A. Which video?
5 Q. The documentary.
6 A. Yes, I had.
7 Q. Okay. And you had seen Gavin in the
8 documentary?
9 A. Yes, I had.
10 Q. You recognized him?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you recognized that it was Gavin sitting
13 on the couch with the defendant in this case with
14 his head on his shoulder?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. And holding hands with him?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. And you knew also that during the
19 same documentary -- let’s call it a “documentary” so
20 we don’t confuse it with the other video that you
21 mentioned. That in that documentary also, that Mr.
22 Jackson had stated publicly that he slept with
23 little boys, correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Okay. Now, it was the media attention that
26 had been generated by those scenes and those
27 statements that was causing the DSS people to
28 investigate Janet, correct? 11253
1 A. I believe so. I’m not sure if there was
2 something else involved, but I believe it was
3 stemming from that documentary.
4 Q. So this was the nature of the relationship
5 between Gavin and the defendant, Michael Jackson,
6 that was -- that was the reason that she was
7 concerned about being declared an unfit mother, or,
8 let me change that, in your words, that they would
9 take the children away at some point?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, you mentioned that -- when you were at
12 the DSS meeting, that Janet -- at some point you
13 were asked or told that you would have to leave by
14 the Department of Social Services ladies. The
15 social workers, let’s just call them that.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you said that Janet objected to that?
18 A. Yes, she did.
19 Q. And you used the word “absolutely objected”?
20 A. She was adamant.
21 Q. Okay. And do you remember that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So do you know that that conversation was
24 tape-recorded?
25 A. What conversation?
26 Q. The conversation with the Department of --
27 the social ladies, the social workers.
28 A. No, I wasn’t aware of that. 11254
1 Q. Have you heard a tape of it?
2 A. Not at all.
3 Q. Did Mr. Mesereau provide you a tape to
4 listen to before you testified?
5 A. No.
6 Q. So you at no time, up to me just telling you
7 this, did you know that there was actually
8 tape-recording of that part of the conversation?
9 A. No. Actually, I heard that there was a
10 tape-recording, but I wasn’t aware of it at the
11 time. It was up until recently.
12 Q. Do you recall during that conversation that
13 when the social workers asked you to leave, that
14 Mrs. Arvizo actually apologized to the social
15 workers for having invited you and said it was her
16 fault for having you come?
17 A. I don’t remember that.
18 Q. Now, let’s just talk a little bit about a
19 couple of things dealing with some of the
20 conversations that you had with Mrs. Arvizo.
21 Just so we don’t -- so we can make it easier
22 for both of us and for everybody, let’s talk
23 about -- let’s give these things different names,
24 okay?
25 A. Okay.
26 Q. I want to ask you some questions about the
27 Martin Bashir documentary, okay?
28 A. Okay. 11255
1 Q. And then there is what has variously been
2 called the rebuttal video that occurred the night
3 before you went over to the house for the Department
4 of Social Services meeting, okay?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. All right. Now, with regard to the Bashir
7 documentary, it’s true, is it not, that Mrs.
8 Arvizo’s conversations with you about the fact that
9 no release had been signed dealt with the Martin
10 Bashir documentary, correct?
11 A. Prior to the Martin Bashir documentary, I
12 don’t recall us having any conversation about any
13 release being signed. It wasn’t until two to three
14 weeks after she was interviewed by the social
15 workers.
16 Q. Right. But the conversation about -- that
17 she was complaining about the lack of a release
18 being signed had to do with the Bashir documentary,
19 correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. It wasn’t anything to do with the rebuttal
22 film that had occurred the night before the
23 Department of Social Services?
24 A. No, it was not.
25 Q. All right. Let’s talk just a little bit
26 about the car.
27 A. Okay.
28 Q. Mr. Mesereau asked you a number of times 11256
1 about them asking about a car, asking for a car,
2 okay? In this particular situation, actually Chris
3 Tucker had given them the car, right, your car, to
4 your knowledge?
5 A. He had not given them the car. The car has
6 never left my -- my parking space.
7 Q. It eventually never went to them, but your
8 understanding was that he had indicated to them that
9 he was giving them your car, correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. As a gift?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Out of the kindness of his heart?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So it wasn’t a car. It was the car. It was
16 your car.
17 A. Right. It was my car.
18 Q. Yeah. And part of the problem here was that
19 during the month of February, Mr. Tucker had flown
20 to Florida and then was gone the entire month of
21 February, correct?
22 A. I don’t remember. I don’t think he was gone
23 the entire month of February.
24 Q. He was gone for an extended period of time?
25 A. He may have been.
26 Q. But in any case, the car that they were
27 talking about was your car that you had -- let me go
28 back. You got a new car, right? 11257
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You got a Mercedes?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. An SUV Mercedes?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did the children go with you when that car
7 was picked out?
8 A. I wasn’t there when the car was picked out.
9 The children went with Chris to pick out the car.
10 Q. And to your knowledge, did Chris let them
11 pick out the color for the car?
12 A. I don’t know. I think they may have
13 mentioned that before, but I don’t know. The
14 children told me that they actually went with Chris.
15 Q. When he bought the car for you?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. You mentioned giving the Arvizo family a
18 cashier’s check for Christmas as a present, correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And that was in the year 2001, for the
21 Christmas 2001?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you sent that to them with a nice
24 Christmas card and a note, right?
25 A. I’m sure I did, yes.
26 Q. And as a matter of fact, they also gave you
27 some Christmas presents and gift certificates for
28 your son, correct? Do you recall that? 11258
1 A. I remember them giving me gift certificates.
2 I don’t know when it was, if it was that Christmas
3 or Mother’s Day. They would send me gifts from time
4 to time, different holidays.
5 Q. So the feeling between you and the kids was
6 that it was one of -- that close, that you would
7 actually exchange gifts and pleasantries with each
8 other, correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. I actually just have one more question.
11 A. Great.
12 Q. I know that’s a great relief to you.
13 When -- actually, I have two, I’m sorry. That’s a
14 lawyer’s problem. They can never ask just one.
15 But the exhibit that Mr. Mesereau handed
16 you, which is the 5095, which is the one with the
17 information on it --
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. -- that I’m showing you now, actually the
20 document itself contains an affectionate note from
21 Davellin to you before all the information about the
22 driver’s license and all that, does it not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And in fact, there’s like a heart at the top
25 of it with “February,” and then there’s a nice note
26 to you about how much she loves you and cares for
27 you?
28 A. Yes. 11259
1 Q. And then the information is below that?
2 A. And then the driver’s license information.
3 Q. Okay. She signs it, “Love, your little
4 sister”?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. Okay. Now we can get to the last question.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. At the time you were with the Department of
9 Social Services workers and just before you were
10 asked to leave, do you recall that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you recall telling the Department of
13 Social Services that you would like to stay because
14 you considered these people your family?
15 A. I didn’t say that. Janet said that. She
16 said she would like for me to stay because I am her
17 family.
18 Q. Do you recall making this statement? “I
19 mean, I was -- I’m here to support my family.
20 That’s -- you know, but I understand your policies
21 about it. If she wants, you know, she needs me with
22 them.”
23 Did you make that statement?
24 A. Maybe I did. I don’t know. I don’t really
25 remember saying that. I may have said that, yes.
26 Q. But you used the term “family” --
27 A. Right.
28 Q. -- there, “to support my family”? 11260
1 A. I don’t know if I said there “to support my
2 family,” but I have used “my family,” that term
3 before when talking about them. So I may have said
4 it that day.
5 MR. SNEDDON: Okay. Thank you. No further
6 questions.
7
8 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. MESEREAU:
10 Q. Ms. Pryor, nowhere in the Bashir documentary
11 does Mr. Jackson ever say, “I sleep with little
12 boys,” does he?
13 A. No, that was an issue that Janet and I
14 talked about. My understanding of watching the
15 documentary was that Mr. Jackson said that children
16 have slept in his bed and he slept on the floor.
17 And that was another issue why we didn’t understand
18 there was being such a big uproar about this when he
19 clearly said that he slept on the floor.
20 Q. And Mr. Jackson makes a point to say that he
21 never has any sexual contact with children, right?
22 A. I believe he did.
23 Q. The words “I sleep with little boys” are
24 just made up by the government, right?
25 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
26 object. That is argumentative, and I’d ask counsel
27 to be admonished for this.
28 THE COURT: Sustained. It’s argumentative. 11261
1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, Mr. Jackson also in
2 that documentary talks about children needing more
3 love and attention, doesn’t he?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. He talks about kids bringing guns into
6 schools, doesn’t he?
7 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
8 object as leading, suggestive.
9 THE COURT: Sustained.
10 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, the prosecutor, Mr.
11 Sneddon, talked about Mr. Jackson holding hands with
12 Gavin, correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Isn’t it correct that Gavin often wanted to
15 hold hands with people around him?
16 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
17 object. Calls for a conclusion, speculation, and
18 it’s leading.
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever see the
21 rebuttal footage of the Arvizo family interview when
22 Janet says to Gavin, “Let’s hold hands”?
23 A. I haven’t seen any rebuttal footage of the
24 Arvizos, no.
25 Q. Do you remember Janet often saying, “Let’s
26 hold hands”?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. She said that to you, didn’t she? 11262
1 A. I don’t remember.
2 Q. Didn’t Janet tell you that her family all
3 held hands and prayed to God that they would meet
4 Michael Jackson and Chris Tucker?
5 A. Yes, she did.
6 Q. And when the prosecutor, Mr. Sneddon, asked
7 about the Arvizos being affectionate, you agreed
8 with him, right?
9 A. Very much so.
10 Q. When he said they were very unduly and very
11 quickly affectionate with people, you agree with
12 that, right?
13 A. Very much so, yes.
14 Q. And they used to immediately hug people,
15 correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. People they hardly knew, right?
18 A. I don’t know, but -- I don’t know. I
19 haven’t really been around them when they just met
20 strangers, but anyone who I ever brought around
21 them, yes, they --
22 Q. I’m sorry.
23 A. -- they were very affectionate towards them.
24 Q. Part of their being affectionate was also
25 holding hands at times, right? Ever see them hold
26 hands?
27 MR. SNEDDON: Well, Your Honor, let -- she
28 was waiting for the answer to the first question. 11263
1 THE WITNESS: I’ve seen them hold hands.
2 THE COURT: All right. That’s okay. Go to
3 your next question.
4 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
5 Q. Now, the prosecutor, Mr. Sneddon, asked you
6 if you’d been to the Soto Street address, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Have you been to the grandparents’ address?
9 A. No.
10 Q. But you’ve been to what you now know is Jay
11 Jackson’s address, correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. When Janet -- excuse me. When Davellin and
14 Janet were asking you for a car, did you know
15 whether or not Jay Jackson was supporting them?
16 A. I was not aware that Jay Jackson was even in
17 the picture during this time.
18 Q. Okay. Was -- Janet and Davellin, were they
19 telling you they were too poor to get a car?
20 MR. SNEDDON: Object. Calls for hearsay and
21 leading.
22 THE COURT: Compound, sustained.
23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: At the time they were
24 asking you for a car, did you know whether or not
25 Janet was collecting welfare checks?
26 MR. SNEDDON: Object, Your Honor. This is
27 compound and leading.
28 THE COURT: It’s sustained. Compound. 11264
1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Well, when they
2 consistently called you, call after call, and asked
3 for an automobile, did they tell you in any of those
4 conversations that they were too poor to buy a car?
5 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
6 object to that as argumentative in the use of the
7 word “consistently.”
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 MR. MESEREAU: I have no further questions,
10 Your Honor.
11 MR. SNEDDON: No questions, Your Honor.
12 Thank you.
13 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. You may
14 step down.
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
16 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, our next witness
17 would be -- our next witness would be Mr. Nimmer.
18 BAILIFF CORTEZ: Mr. Sanger?
19 THE BAILIFF: I’ll come get it.
20 THE COURT: Are you prepared to show me that?
21 (To the jury) All right. I have to review a
22 piece of evidence here that’s going to take,
23 according to counsel, 19 minutes and 8 seconds.
24 MR. SANGER: Three seconds.
25 THE COURT: Three seconds. So I’m going to
26 let you go outside and have some more soup.
27 A JUROR: There’s none left.
28 THE COURT: Ahh. 11265
1
2 (The following proceedings were held in
3 open court outside the presence and hearing of the
4 jury:)
5
6 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, are you ready to
7 proceed?
8 THE COURT: Yes. Is it “1” or “4”?
9 MR. SANGER: All right. Before I start it,
10 let me just state for the record that we have
11 Exhibit 5089, which I think I already identified for
12 the record. I’ve put that in the machine, and then
13 we’ll keep a good thought.
14 It might be helpful if we could have the
15 lights. Thank you. I know there’s somebody usually
16 on the other side there.
17 THE BAILIFF: Is there sound?
18 MR. SANGER: No, there is no sound with
19 this, Your Honor.
20 (Whereupon, a DVD, Defendant’s Exhibit 5089,
21 was played for the Court.)
22 MR. SANGER: That’s the end of the video,
23 and we would propose to have Mr. Nimmer narrate
24 basically where he was when he was shooting, and he
25 would say, “This is the front gate,” “This is
26 Figueroa,” “This is the guest unit,” that sort of
27 thing.
28 MR. SNEDDON: Judge, as I indicated earlier, 11266
1 I believe that this -- a good deal of what’s in this
2 video is inadmissible. And particularly
3 objectionable is those parts that deal with having
4 staff out there doing things, basically scripted
5 or -- “scripted” is probably not a good word to use
6 in light of everything that’s happened in this
7 courtroom, but certainly the way they’re performing
8 on the video and performing for the camera
9 specifically.
10 Secondly, there are some parts about this
11 that there is no way to establish that this is the
12 way that the premises looked at the time of the
13 events in February and March of 2003. And I believe
14 this video, portions of it were filmed earlier this
15 year and maybe portions of it recently, and we know
16 for a fact that certain portions of it are different
17 from when we went out there, when members of the
18 sheriff’s department went out there in December of
19 2004.
20 So it’s misleading to the jury in the sense
21 that it portrays certain locations and places
22 different than they were and certain facilities. If
23 this were simply a video of somebody showing the zoo
24 or showing the giraffes or showing the amusement
25 park -- and you can see it’s unduly suggestive in
26 the fact that they have notes on the board that are
27 obviously propaganda in the sense they’re notes
28 with, “We love you, Daddy,” and in the mail room 11267
1 where they took them, there was actually a sign of
2 protest dealing with this case.
3 Those things don’t belong in front of the
4 jury, and it’s highly inappropriate focusing on one
5 particular picture and one particular room. And so
6 I just think that this video should not be admitted.
7 It’s -- it’s 352. It’s of little or no value to the
8 jury, and that it would tend to mislead the jury as
9 to the factual issues they have to make.
10 And I think it’s particularly misleading
11 with regard to the fact of the clocks. There’s some
12 testimony about where the clocks were. It’s not
13 inconsistent with what’s portrayed here, but the way
14 they portrayed it here is the way the clocks were
15 operating when this video was taken, and it misleads
16 the jury that they may have been operating
17 differently at another time.
18 And so I think in all respects that this
19 video should not, in its current condition, be
20 submitted to this jury for observation and review,
21 and we object to that, Your Honor.
22 Thank you.
23 THE COURT: Well, I think the -- I did deny
24 the request to go to the Neverland Ranch, but I had
25 in mind, when I denied that, that the parties would
26 be capable of showing the property with a video such
27 as this. And there’s some truth to the fact they’re
28 showing -- I guess it’s probably the typical welcome 11268
1 that the guests get at Neverland when they go there,
2 but I don’t think it’s a prejudicial issue, and I’ll
3 allow the film.
4 MR. SNEDDON: Judge, I can’t convince the
5 Court that they should edit out some of the parts
6 that are really inappropriate for the jury to see?
7 It’s a simple editing job. It seems to me if you’re
8 going to let some of it in, that’s fine, but it also
9 seems to me that some of those things are really not
10 appropriate, particularly the writings on the
11 chalkboard and --
12 THE COURT: Well, I don’t know. It moves
13 pretty rapidly. I mean, I didn’t get the feeling
14 that I could read any of that material. It moves
15 right along. I tried to -- I started to look at it,
16 and about the time I was understanding what might be
17 there, it was gone. So I don’t really see any
18 problem with it.
19 I would not want you dwelling on those items
20 with your narrator, if you had that in mind. You
21 haven’t said that you do.
22 MR. SANGER: No. In fact, we will make it
23 clear the narrator did this in 2005. It says it
24 right on the -- on the video. And the thing on the
25 board was just there when he was out there. It was
26 Mr. Jackson’s kids had written something, evidently.
27 But that’s clear he did it in 2005, and the jury
28 will know it wasn’t in 2003. 11269
1 THE COURT: All right.
2 MR. SANGER: What I’d propose to do is to
3 play the other tape first, the one we have an
4 agreement on, and we can probably do that before we
5 have the break.
6 THE COURT: All right. Let’s have the jury
7 come in, and we’ll play the other part first.
8 Did you call them in?
9 THE BAILIFF: I did.
10
11 (The following proceedings were held in
12 open court in the presence and hearing of the
13 jury:)
14
15 THE COURT: When you get to the witness
16 stand, please remain standing. Face the clerk over
17 here. Raise your right hand.
18
19 LAURENCE NIMMER
20 Having been sworn, testified as follows:
21
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
23 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and
24 spell your name for the record
25 THE WITNESS: Hello. Laurence, or Larry,
26 Nimmer. Laurence is L-a-u-r-e-n-c-e. Nimmer is
27 N-i-m-m-e-r.
28 THE CLERK: Thank you. 11270
1 MR. SANGER: Okay. May I proceed, Your
2 Honor?
3 THE COURT: Yes.
4 DIRECT EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. SANGER:
6 Q. Mr. Nimmer, how are you presently employed?
7 A. I have a legal graphics, demonstrative
8 evidence company.
9 Q. All right. And you did just the right
10 thing. We have to tell every witness to sit right
11 up into that right microphone.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. All right. And how long have you had a
14 legal graphics company?
15 A. I’ve had my company for 13 years, and I’ve
16 worked in the field another two years.
17 Q. All right. Can you give us your background,
18 training, and experience that leads up to your being
19 employed in the legal graphics field?
20 A. Well, I have an undergraduate degree in
21 architecture, and then I studied broadcasting at San
22 Francisco State University. I worked in T.V. news
23 for the CBS affiliate in San Francisco. And I’ve
24 been involved in graphics and multi-media for the
25 last 30 years.
26 Q. Now, as far as the legal graphics aspect and
27 legal documentation aspect is concerned, I think
28 you’ve said you’ve been doing this for about 15 11271
1 years?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. All right. And during that 15 years, have
4 you had occasion to prepare exhibits for
5 presentation in court cases?
6 A. Yes, quite a few.
7 Q. Is that one of the main things that you do?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. All right. Can you tell us whether or not
10 you have been called to testify in any of the courts
11 in this general area?
12 A. Yes, I have.
13 Q. And what courts do you recall testifying in?
14 A. Santa Barbara. Ventura. Los Angeles.
15 Q. Have you testified in Santa Maria courts?
16 A. I don’t believe I’ve testified here. I’ve
17 had trial exhibits in these courts.
18 Q. Have you testified in San Luis Obispo?
19 A. I have not testified there. I’ve had trial
20 exhibits there.
21 Q. Your exhibits have been received in court
22 without your testimony?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. All right. Now, over the course of your
25 work in the last 13 years in your own company, about
26 how many cases have you prepared exhibits for?
27 A. Between 900 and a thousand.
28 Q. And about how many exhibits do you believe 11272
1 have been, to your knowledge, admitted into evidence
2 in court?
3 A. I would guess around a thousand exhibits --
4 Q. So you prepared --
5 A. -- I’d estimate.
6 Q. So you’ve prepared more than one exhibit --
7 A. Per trial.
8 Q. -- per case?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So a percentage of the cases you work on go
11 to trial, and of those, there’s a number of exhibits
12 per case that might go before a jury or before a
13 judge; is that correct?
14 A. That’s correct.
15 Q. All right. Now, you have -- have you worked
16 primarily in the criminal area or the civil area?
17 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, in order to
18 expedite this, I’ll stipulate to his qualifications.
19 We can just move on to the --
20 MR. SANGER: I’ll accept the stipulation. I
21 need to ask a couple more foundational questions for
22 the first tape, but --
23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 MR. SANGER: Thank you.
25 THE COURT: Thank you.
26 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Now, as far as the work that
27 you do, does part of it involve preparing diagrams
28 and charts for court? 11273
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Does part of it involve preparing video
3 documentation?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And can you explain what the purpose is to
6 video documentation, in general? What are you doing
7 when you’re doing that?
8 A. Generally it’s to give an objective view of
9 a scene, or an object, or whatever the subject
10 matter.
11 Q. And have you worked for both sides in cases,
12 both the plaintiff’s side and the defense side?
13 A. Yes, I have.
14 Q. When you say -- I think you said “an
15 objective view.” Were those your words?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is it possible to manipulate video or visual
18 media to give a distorted view of something?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you attempt to avoid that when you’re
21 preparing a video documentation?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Can you explain what kind of video
24 documentation you often prepare for court cases?
25 A. I’ve done day-in-the-life videos that
26 document, if someone’s been injured, what their
27 quality of life is now or when they were involved in
28 a certain job. 11274
1 I’ve documented accident scenes, different
2 environments, buildings, that type of thing.
3 Q. All right. And you mentioned day in the
4 life. Can you just explain just briefly what that
5 means?
6 A. Well, if someone in a personal injury case
7 has been injured, sometimes I will follow them
8 around and show what their quality of life now is
9 for the jury to be able to evaluate what their
10 problems are or what their lifestyle is like,
11 basically.
12 Q. All right. In this particular case, did you
13 prepare two different videos?
14 In fact, what I’ll do, Your Honor, let me
15 back up for a second. During the break, I asked
16 that a DVD, which I’m calling a video, be marked as
17 Exhibit 5096, and it’s entitled, “Neverland alarm
18 test.”
19 And then prior to this, I believe out of the
20 presence of the jury, we marked -- we had already
21 identified a video entitled “Neverland Ranch 2005,”
22 and that was marked for identification as 5089.
23 THE COURT: Yes.
24 MR. SANGER: Okay. Thank you.
25 May I approach the witness with these
26 exhibits?
27 THE COURT: Yes.
28 Q. BY MR. SANGER: All right. You have before 11275
1 you Exhibit 5096?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. Do you see the little yellow tab on
4 there?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. Okay. And what is that?
7 A. The Neverland alarm test.
8 Q. And is that a video that you created?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. All right. Now, with regard to that video,
11 did you have a particular assignment that you were
12 asked to carry out?
13 A. Yes, I did. Should I describe it?
14 Q. Yes, please.
15 A. I was asked to document the sound of the
16 alarm in the private suite of Mr. Jackson, both
17 downstairs in the private suite and upstairs in the
18 bedroom area.
19 Q. Okay. When we say “alarm,” I suppose that’s
20 what it says on the video. Can you describe what
21 this is? You say “alarm.” What is it?
22 A. Yes, it’s kind of a chime sound that is
23 triggered when someone walks in the outer area of
24 the private suite.
25 Q. All right. And did you have occasion to go
26 to Mr. Jackson’s home?
27 A. Yes, I did.
28 Q. Did Mr. Jackson give you permission to go in 11276
1 there and spend the time you needed to do this
2 video?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. Did you have any assistance in
5 doing this video?
6 A. I used the assistance of a maid on the
7 property to walk out and walk in to trigger the
8 alarm. I had an assistant with me for some other
9 purposes, but during the alarm test, I didn’t have
10 any other really assistance on that.
11 Q. So basically for the alarm test, you pretty
12 much commandeered somebody who was working that day;
13 is that correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And you asked her to walk through the
16 hallway area to set off the chimes, or the bell, or
17 whatever it was, correct?
18 A. That’s correct.
19 Q. And then what did you do to record the sound
20 of that bell?
21 A. I used my professional video camera, it’s a
22 Sony VX2100, and I used the internal stereo
23 microphone on the camera to record the sound.
24 Q. Did you make any modifications to that
25 camera in order to do this test?
26 A. No.
27 Q. How long have you had that camera?
28 A. Approximately a year, year and a half. 11277
1 Q. And have you used that camera during the
2 last year, year and a half routinely in other cases?
3 A. Yes. About every day, every other day.
4 Q. All right. So that’s your regular everyday
5 camera is what you’re saying?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. All right. Now, in the course of doing
8 this -- we’re going to show it, but before we do --
9 or we’re going to ask to show it. Before we do,
10 though, I want you to set it up a little more.
11 In the course of this, do you recall where
12 you were standing during the first part of the test?
13 A. During the first part of the test I was
14 inside the private suite area downstairs, perhaps
15 about 15 feet from the front door, opposite the
16 front door.
17 Q. And did you have -- do you remember the name
18 of the particular employee who you asked to help
19 you?
20 A. I believe her name was Maria.
21 Q. Do you remember her last name?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Does Maria Gomez sound right? Or you don’t
24 know?
25 A. I’m afraid I don’t know her last name.
26 MR. SANGER: I’d like to refer to her by her
27 last name.
28 Is there any objection to my doing that? 11278
1 Miss Gomez? I can represent to the Court, as you’ll
2 see, that’s who it is.
3 THE COURT: Is there any problem with that,
4 Mr. Sneddon?
5 MR. SNEDDON: I’m assuming that’s who it is.
6 Q. BY MR. SANGER: So I’ll refer to Miss Gomez.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. Just so we’re proper and polite here.
9 What did you instruct Miss Gomez to do?
10 A. I instructed her, once the camera was
11 recording, to walk out and then walk back in.
12 Q. Now, did you have her go down the hallway a
13 certain point?
14 A. Correct. There’s an outer hallway where the
15 alarms or the chimes are triggered. I had her walk
16 through there so she was on the other side of it,
17 and then walk in.
18 Q. You say the other side of the hallway.
19 Would that be the door that’s adjacent to the foyer
20 and the front door?
21 A. That’s correct.
22 Q. So you had her walk down that little hallway
23 and turn around and walk back into the room; is that
24 correct?
25 A. That’s correct.
26 Q. And did you have her close the door behind
27 her as she went out?
28 A. Yes. And possibly it automatically closed. 11279
1 Q. Okay. Now, so -- and the first test was you
2 standing on the first floor of Mr. Jackson’s suite,
3 private suite area, and doing just what you said.
4 What was the second test?
5 A. The second test was upstairs in the private
6 bedroom area. My camera was positioned two or three
7 feet kind of behind the bed. So we see the bed in
8 the foreground pointing towards the stairway where
9 people walk up to get upstairs to the private
10 bedroom.
11 And your question was what was the test?
12 Q. Well, that was -- I think you answered my
13 question. I think. But let’s try another question.
14 All right. And that’s where you were
15 located. So then what did you instruct Miss Gomez
16 to do?
17 A. I instructed her, similar to the first test,
18 to walk downstairs, walk through the room
19 downstairs, through the hallway downstairs where the
20 alarm is triggered, to walk all the way out into the
21 foyer area, and then to turn around and walk back in
22 through the hallway, through the downstairs area, up
23 the stairway into the private bedroom.
24 Q. All right.
25 A. And I should mention we had the door open at
26 the bottom of the steps.
27 Q. So we’re going to get to that.
28 The second test we’re going to see, the door 11280
1 at the bottom of the steps --
2 A. Of the stairway.
3 Q. -- it’s an internal door in between the
4 first-floor room and the hallway and stairway
5 leading up to the second-floor room. There’s a door
6 there; is that correct?
7 A. That’s correct.
8 Q. So the second test, in the sequence of three
9 tests here, you had the door open, correct?
10 A. That’s correct.
11 Q. And then what was the third test?
12 A. The third test was just the same as the
13 second test; however, we had the door closed at the
14 bottom of the stairway which leads up to the
15 upstairs bedroom.
16 Q. All right. Now, have you had a chance to
17 listen to the -- or listen to and watch the video
18 that you prepared?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You were there, of course, during the time
21 this was being filmed? You were the one filming it,
22 correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Did you have an opportunity to compare what
25 you heard on the video to what you heard with your
26 own ears as you were standing there?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Does the video fairly and accurately depict 11281
1 what you heard?
2 A. I’d say fairly and accurately. Perhaps the
3 last test, with the door closed downstairs, I
4 believe the alarm actually sounded somewhat louder
5 in person than you’ll hear it on the tape. But
6 otherwise, I believe it’s more or less like the
7 experience of being there.
8 MR. SANGER: All right. And with that, Your
9 Honor, I’d like to play 5096, if we may. I think I
10 need to move it into evidence first, which I do.
11 MR. SNEDDON: No objection.
12 THE COURT: All right. It’s admitted.
13 MR. SANGER: And -- all right. And now I’ve
14 got to retrieve it.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
16 (Whereupon, a DVD, Defendant’s Exhibit 5096,
17 was played for the Court and jury.)
18 MR. SANGER: Okay. May I proceed with
19 questioning?
20 Q. Now, with regard to Exhibit 5096, you just
21 heard it?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Does that appear, as you listen to it, to be
24 a fairly accurate depiction of what you were able to
25 hear of the bell?
26 A. Well, as I said, the last test with the door
27 closed, I remember hearing it very clearly. Here,
28 you hear it, but not that loudly. So other than 11282
1 that, I’d say it’s fairly accurate.
2 Q. Now, there was a -- there seems to be a
3 faint bell that seemed to be triggered when Miss
4 Gomez was going out, but not every time.
5 Did you -- did you hear that?
6 A. I noticed that, and I don’t know why it’s
7 inconsistent that way.
8 Q. In other words, sometimes it seemed there
9 was a faint bell set off when she went out the door,
10 and other times there was no bell at all that you
11 could hear; is that correct?
12 A. Correct. And sometimes the bell seemed
13 louder when she went out. Sometimes it didn’t seem
14 to trigger at all when she went out, but it always
15 seemed to trigger when she came in.
16 Q. Okay. Now, you have in front of you 5089?
17 A. That’s correct.
18 Q. All right. And is that the DVD that you
19 compiled as a result of visiting and going around
20 the Neverland Ranch itself?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. And is that video cut from longer -- I want
23 to say film, but it’s not film, it’s all on video,
24 so whatever you call it. Is that cut from a longer
25 series of shots?
26 A. Yes, it is.
27 Q. And did you try to -- what did you try to do
28 in compiling that video? 11283
1 A. I tried to give an objective view of the
2 experience of a visitor to Neverland.
3 Q. All right. There is some people who are
4 seen in the video at various places. People, for
5 instance, driving a tractor or golf cart or
6 something like that. Were they planted there by you
7 or were they actually doing that?
8 A. They were actually doing that.
9 Q. Now, there are some scenes where -- a scene,
10 for instance, where you have some people lined up --
11 there are people lined up as you’re going into the
12 main house. Did you ask them to do that for a
13 particular reason?
14 A. Yes. I was told that often, when visitors
15 come, the staff stand out in front and greet the
16 visitor. So I asked if I could experience that as
17 well with my camera.
18 Q. So that is something you requested as
19 opposed to somebody just driving a tractor on the
20 property?
21 A. Correct. And I think there’s also a repeat
22 of the scene of Miss Gomez walking in the downstairs
23 private suite and I arranged for that shot, too.
24 Q. All right. And there are a couple of others
25 where there’s -- at the train station or the theater
26 where people are offering -- offering you something
27 or holding out something; is that correct?
28 A. That’s correct. 11284
1 Q. And was that arranged?
2 A. That was arranged. I asked if they could
3 have it as it would normally be for a visitor and
4 what the experience was like.
5 MR. SANGER: All right. Very well.
6 THE COURT: We’ll take our break now.
7 (Recess taken.)
8 THE COURT: I scared the bailiff. She
9 stepped right out, and I was standing right there.
10 We were like that, for a second.
11 All right. Are we prepared to go forward?
12 MR. SANGER: Yes. I wanted to ask a few
13 more preliminary questions, before we start, to set
14 the scene.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 Q. BY MR. SANGER: You have up there -- you
17 have 5089. That’s what we’re talking about. And
18 that’s your -- what a visitor might see if they came
19 to Neverland?
20 A. That’s correct.
21 Q. Now, the ranch itself is -- and I think we
22 had testimony, is 2700 acres, something like that.
23 Did your video cover the 2700 acres?
24 A. Well, not every acre, but we went throughout
25 the property.
26 Q. And on the video that you’ve come up with
27 here, can you tell us, just in general terms, where
28 it starts, where it goes? In general terms. Not 11285
1 every frame, but where it starts, where it goes, and
2 how it ends.
3 A. Sure. We start on the front gate, on
4 Figueroa Mountain Road. We come in. We go into the
5 inner gate, the golden gate.
6 And then we come to the main house area, the
7 guest cottage area, which is opposite the main
8 house.
9 We see some of the grounds.
10 Then we go out to the arcade, next to the
11 main house.
12 Then we go to the amusement park, north of
13 the main house.
14 And then the zoo north of that.
15 And then we see a few other areas on the
16 property, such as video library, administrative
17 offices.
18 Q. All right. There’s -- in this video that
19 we’re going to see, there is -- seems to be a number
20 of clocks.
21 Did you have a particular -- were you given
22 some particular instruction with regard to clocks?
23 A. I did have an instruction to video clocks
24 that one would see particularly around the main
25 house, the guest cottage area. Other exterior --
26 Q. Could you do me a favor and talk in the
27 other microphone?
28 A. Sure. 11286
1 Q. That’s the one.
2 A. Should I repeat that answer?
3 Q. I think I stepped on it. So if you would,
4 go ahead.
5 A. So, yeah, I did have a direction to document
6 clocks around the main house area, the guest cottage
7 area and other clocks outside that one would see.
8 Q. All right. And then I believe you said you
9 photographed this in part during the day; is that
10 right?
11 A. That’s correct.
12 Q. Was this all done on one day?
13 A. No, I was there on three or so occasions.
14 Q. And what year was that that you did that?
15 A. This year. 2005.
16 Q. All right. And then did you also video some
17 of the footage at night?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. All right. And when -- when you were taking
20 these videos, do you personally know whether or not
21 all of this is exactly the same as it was in 2003?
22 A. No, I don’t know.
23 Q. Did you ask anybody to change anything in
24 any way that would cause it to be different than the
25 way you were finding it as you went there?
26 A. No. In some cases, there was an effort to
27 make it look like it was in 2003, I believe. But I
28 didn’t ask for any particular direction. 11287
1 Q. Okay. Can you explain what you just told us
2 about making it look like it was in 2003?
3 A. The only example I can think of for that is
4 in the private suite area, the first time I came
5 there, it was kind of in a state of disarray. And
6 then I was told, when I came back, that the
7 furniture was more or less arranged like it was in
8 2003.
9 Q. Okay. And was -- do you know if the people
10 that did that had a reference, any kind of a video
11 reference that they could use to try to make it look
12 as much as they could like 2003?
13 A. My understanding is that they did have some
14 reference.
15 Q. All right. Is that the search video that --
16 A. I don’t know what they used. It was the
17 ranch manager.
18 Q. That’s fine. All right.
19 Okay. Your Honor, with the Court’s
20 permission, we will play the tape, if we can.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 MR. SANGER: Oh. I have to retrieve it
23 first. Let me do that.
24 May I approach, Your Honor?
25 THE COURT: Yes. Did you offer that into
26 evidence?
27 MR. SANGER: I was just going to do that
28 now, Your Honor. I would offer Exhibit 5089 into 11288
1 evidence, please.
2 THE COURT: Subject to your previous
3 objection, I’ll admit it.
4 THE WITNESS: And should I give some
5 narration?
6 MR. SANGER: Before I start it, let me -- as
7 I indicated to the Court earlier, I’m going to ask
8 the witness to give brief narrative statements while
9 the tape is playing, which will be primarily
10 statements as to what we are looking at, where we
11 are at various points, if that’s acceptable.
12 THE COURT: That’s -- Mr. Sneddon, is that
13 acceptable?
14 MR. SNEDDON: I’ll --
15 THE COURT: You’ll object if something --
16 MR. SNEDDON: If I see something untoward,
17 I’ll say something.
18 MR. SANGER: There you go.
19 THE COURT: Subject to his objection, then
20 you can proceed that way.
21 MR. SANGER: Thank you.
22 Excuse me just one second. Just one second,
23 Your Honor.
24 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel
25 table.)
26 MR. SANGER: Thank you. We have a little
27 technical matter that we were going to -- second
28 time. 11289
1 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel
2 table.)
3 (Whereupon, a DVD, Defendant’s Exhibit 5089
4 was played for the Court and jury.)
5 THE WITNESS: This is Figueroa Mountain Road,
6 the main entrance to the Neverland Ranch.
7 This is just inside the main entrance.
8 These are the perimeter fences on Figueroa
9 Mountain Road.
10 Straight ahead here is the bus parking and
11 turn-around area for groups that visit.
12 This is the golden gate to enter near to the
13 main house area.
14 This is the small train depot opposite the
15 main house and the guest cottages.
16 This is the guest cottage and the lake and
17 the main house area.
18 This is the main house on the southwest
19 side.
20 This is entering by the front door.
21 Here we are in the front foyer area by the
22 front door.
23 This is still the front foyer area.
24 This is right upstairs from the foyer area.
25 This is the downstairs dining room.
26 This is a view out of the dining room window
27 of the guest cottages. Panning into the dining room
28 area. 11290
1 This is still the dining room area.
2 This is the entrance to the library, the
3 downstairs library.
4 This is the living room area. And from the
5 living room we see into the family room/den/kitchen
6 area.
7 This is the private suite area, as we saw
8 earlier.
9 This is back downstairs in the main foyer
10 area.
11 And we pan out the front door and see the
12 relationship of the guest cottages across the way
13 from the main house. There’s a cluster of guest
14 cottages together. Facing us is Unit No. 4.
15 This is another view of that same unit.
16 There’s the main house across the way.
17 This is in front of the guest cottage.
18 And now we’re inside this unit of the guest
19 cottage. This is Unit No. 4.
20 Out the window you see a view of the front
21 door of the main house. You’re still in the guest
22 cottage.
23 That’s the bathroom of the guest cottage.
24 This is right -- the front porch of the guest
25 cottage. And this is a view from the front porch.
26 This is the other side of that guest
27 cottage, and we pan over and you see the oversized
28 flower/plant clock. Another angle of it, and it’s 11291
1 in front of the main train station.
2 There’s another angle of the main train
3 station, which I said is opposite the main house and
4 the guest cottages.
5 This is inside the train station.
6 This is the back side of the train station.
7 This is the back side of the main house.
8 And this is a pan of that side of the house,
9 which is on the north side of the home.
10 This is the west end of it, the garage, and
11 just outside the garage area.
12 This is the pool on the north side of the
13 home.
14 Just north of the home, this is the arcade
15 building.
16 And here we’re going inside the arcade
17 building.
18 Upstairs from the arcade building is this
19 book storage area.
20 By the way, they have three trains on the
21 property.
22 And now we’re heading -- we’re going to
23 see -- the next scene will be north of the main
24 house at the amusement park.
25 Opposite the amusement park, this is the
26 theater.
27 This is in the entryway to the foyer of the
28 theater. 11292
Subject: May 19, 2005 
Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:48 am
