1 MR. SANGER: N.
2 THE COURT: But I didn’t see any of your
3 other materials that you intended to ask those
4 questions, but I don’t think they exclude you from
5 covering the areas that you indicated that you were
6 going to cover. But these are areas that are
7 properly objected to, so I’ll sustain their
8 objections to those questions.
9 If you want to take a minute to go through
10 them -- I assume you’ve already gone through them.
11 MR. SANGER: I have not only gone through
12 them, but I left them back in my office, so I have
13 everything but that.
14 THE COURT: Do you want to look at mine? I
15 was afraid I had left something of yours in my
16 office when you said there were five things, but now
17 I see what they’re referring to. They weren’t
18 numbered 1 to 5. They just happened to be five
19 things. So if you want to look at those for just a
20 minute so there’s no confusion about what my ruling
21 is.
22 MR. SANGER: From what Your Honor is saying,
23 I take it Your Honor has ruled and you’re not
24 inviting any argument on this?
25 THE COURT: Well, you didn’t have the paper
26 in front of you. If there’s something you want to
27 address, I would certainly listen to you.
28 MR. SANGER: Well, in general, and that’s -- 10493
1 I felt we had answered it, but maybe not. In
2 general, all of these, as I’m looking at them here,
3 with the exception of N and L -- and now I have the
4 paper and you don’t.
5 THE COURT: Right.
6 MR. SANGER: With the exception of L and
7 N -- and I’ll give it back to you.
8 So with the exception of “Lincoln” and
9 “Nora,” L and N, which we do not intend to ask L
10 and N, the rest of them would be admissible, I
11 think, for two reasons. One, for direct impeachment
12 for both Davellin and Janet Arvizo, because they
13 both testified absolutely to the contrary as to each
14 one of those points.
15 And secondly, for the state of mind of both
16 Davellin -- Davellin and Janet Arvizo, because they
17 both testified that contrary to those points that
18 were made, all the other points except L and N, that
19 they were -- for instance, David was the bad guy.
20 Much evidence was introduced by the prosecution on
21 that. This flies in the face of it and it’s an
22 admission. But Davellin said she basically stayed
23 in the room with her mother at all times, and yet
24 she’s out talking to people and talking to this
25 particular witness and being very expressive about
26 her upset with her mother.
27 Her mother portrays herself as being
28 concerned about her children, and that her children 10494
1 are close to her. And instead, that the children
2 are -- this particular daughter is calling the
3 mother various names and making statements. I mean,
4 that’s a public record. I’m not repeating it
5 unnecessarily. I mean, it’s a totally different
6 picture than the picture painted by the prosecution
7 through the testimony of both Janet and Davellin.
8 It also shows --
9 THE COURT: You can’t impeach Janet’s
10 testimony with this, and a lot of this you didn’t
11 ask Davellin. So the only purpose for
12 impeachment -- you know, you can’t impeach Janet
13 with what Davellin says.
14 MR. SANGER: I understand, Your Honor. It
15 impeaches Davellin to the extent that she was saying
16 her mother was sincere and in her room and was
17 afraid that her -- some of the direct statements to
18 the effect that all of these children, including
19 Davellin, have made about their biological father.
20 And it turns out she misses her father. She blames
21 her mother for that. Those are direct
22 contradictions to her testimony that she’s given so
23 far.
24 THE COURT: Well, I guess one of the problems
25 I’m having is recalling which question you asked
26 which of the children.
27 MR. SANGER: Let me remind the Court for a
28 moment. Maybe this will help. 10495
1 Remember Mr. Mesereau did the questioning.
2 But Mr. Mesereau did the questioning of Davellin.
3 And in the course of that, he had asked her about
4 Carol Lamir, and Davellin immediately volunteered,
5 “Carol Lamir is a terrible person. She made me
6 clean her house.” And then Janet testified to the
7 same thing.
8 Whereas this witness will say she is saying
9 she stayed with this friend. She wanted to get away
10 from her mother. That Davellin was asked by Mr.
11 Mesereau, “Did you tell Carol Lamir that you didn’t
12 want to be with your mother?”
13 “No, I never said that. I didn’t stay there
14 very long.”
15 THE COURT: The only way you can impeach that
16 is to have Carol Lamir come and say that she said
17 that.
18 MR. SANGER: We will.
19 THE COURT: So what she tells or didn’t tell
20 this person doesn’t impeach that, because you didn’t
21 ask her, “Did you tell this person that?” You’re
22 trying to bootstrap yourself into something here.
23 MR. SANGER: Well, we’re not impeaching her
24 statements about Carol Lamir. We’re impeaching the
25 other statements that were made in the course of
26 that questioning by Mr. Mesereau to the effect of,
27 “Did you get along with your mother?” “Were you” --
28 “Did you try to get away from her?” 10496
1 And this shows that those answers -- Carol
2 Lamir was kind of the lead-in to that, but the
3 direct questions I believe were asked of Davellin by
4 Mr. Mesereau.
5 THE COURT: Well --
6 MR. SANGER: And she denied it.
7 THE COURT: See, if you’d responded to me in
8 this brief with the cites where those questions had
9 been asked, that would have been helpful.
10 MR. SANGER: All right.
11 THE COURT: It’s not helpful to give me a
12 general statement that all of this rebuts something
13 that was said.
14 MR. SANGER: I understand, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: And I think, you know, absent
16 you being able to show me those quotes that would
17 justify these questions, I’ll stand by my ruling.
18 MR. SANGER: All right.
19 THE COURT: Let’s bring in the jury.
20
21 (The following proceedings were held in
22 open court in the presence and hearing of the
23 jury:)
24
25 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, if we may, we’ll
26 call a different witness so we have a chance to look
27 at this, if we might briefly.
28 THE COURT: Yes, that’s fine. Respond to 10497
1 the specific items.
2 MR. SANGER: Okay. Thank you.
3 THE COURT: Go ahead.
4 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor. The
5 defense will call Mr. Shane Meridith.
6 THE COURT: All right. Remain standing,
7 please. Face the clerk here, and raise your right
8 hand.
9
10 SHANE MERIDITH
11 Having been sworn, testified as follows:
12
13 THE WITNESS: I do.
14 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and
15 spell your name for the record.
16 THE WITNESS: Shane Meridith. It’s
17 S-h-a-n-e. Last name is M-e-r-i-d-i-t-h.
18 THE CLERK: Thank you.
19
20 DIRECT EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. MESEREAU:
22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Meridith.
23 A. How are you?
24 Q. Good, thanks.
25 Where is your home?
26 A. Santa Maria, California.
27 Q. And how long have you lived in Santa Maria?
28 A. About five years now. 10498
1 Q. Are you familiar with the fellow seated at
2 counsel table to my right?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Who is that?
5 A. Mr. Jackson.
6 Q. How do you know that?
7 A. I used to work for him.
8 Q. When did you work for Mr. Jackson?
9 A. From 2002 till 2003.
10 Q. And did you work at Neverland?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. And what was your job there?
13 A. I was a security officer.
14 Q. Were you a security officer for the whole
15 time of your employment?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Did you have any training in security work
18 before you worked at Neverland?
19 A. No, not really.
20 Q. What was your work history, just in summary?
21 A. Prior to that, I was mostly in sales.
22 Q. Did you have any training in firefighting?
23 A. No, sir.
24 Q. Okay. Did you have any training to do your
25 job in security at the ranch?
26 A. Yes, I did.
27 Q. What was it?
28 A. The training that we received from the 10499
1 ranch, which was from individuals that worked there.
2 Supervisors trained us on basic techniques, you
3 know, as far as detaining people or interrogating
4 people, things like that.
5 Q. Who did the training program for you?
6 A. Mine was a supervisor -- or two supervisors,
7 Julio Magana and Curtis Gordon.
8 Q. And what did you do at Neverland as a
9 security officer?
10 A. Basically view day-to-day activities, answer
11 phones, maintained the security of the ranch itself.
12 Make sure that, you know, everybody that was there
13 was supposed to be there, and people that weren’t
14 supposed to be there weren’t allowed to come on.
15 Things like that.
16 Q. What kind of shift did you work typically?
17 A. Typically my shift was 6 p.m. to 6 a.m.
18 Q. And was that your shift during the entire
19 period of employment at Neverland?
20 A. Roughly. Some of them would vary. I think
21 Sundays I would work a day shift, which was 6 a.m.
22 to 6 p.m.
23 Q. Did you ever meet someone named Janet
24 Arvizo?
25 A. Yes, sir, I did.
26 Q. When did you first meet her?
27 A. It must have been -- well, it was in 2002.
28 It was probably February, maybe March of 2002. 10500
1 Q. Would it be 2003, do you think?
2 A. Maybe around Christmastime of 2002.
3 Q. Okay. That’s when you first met her?
4 A. Yeah, I believe so.
5 Q. And where did you meet her?
6 A. On the property.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. She was actually -- when they were coming
9 onto the property, I met her at the front gate.
10 Q. Okay. Did you ever see her on the property
11 while you were working there?
12 A. Yes, sir, I did.
13 Q. And how many times do you think you saw
14 Janet Arvizo at Neverland when you were working at
15 Neverland?
16 Possibly five times. Five or six times.
17 Q. What did you see her doing?
18 A. Mostly just walking around the property.
19 Either from the bungalow areas to the house itself
20 or just, you know, hanging around by the front of
21 the house where our security station was.
22 Q. Would you talk to her from time to time?
23 A. I think I had one conversation with her.
24 Q. Okay. Okay. And where did that
25 conversation take place?
26 A. That took place in front of the security
27 office close to the main house.
28 Q. All right. Did you see her in any other 10501
1 location other than near the main house, that you
2 recall?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. Not that I recall.
6 Q. Did you ever meet her kids?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. And when did you meet her children?
9 A. Roughly the same time.
10 Q. Okay. And they were Gavin, Star, and
11 Davellin, right?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Where did you see them?
14 A. You’d see them all over the ranch. They
15 used to come up to the front security office
16 sometimes riding bicycles. I’d see them at the
17 theater. I’d actually take them from the house,
18 from the main house, up to the theater periodically,
19 as I did, you know, many guests. But all throughout
20 the ranch.
21 Q. Would you talk to them from time to time?
22 A. Yes, I would.
23 Q. And why would you talk to them?
24 A. Just speaking to -- like I said, to all
25 guests. Just basic conversation, “How you doing?”
26 Things of that nature. “Can I get anything for
27 you?” You know, stuff like that. Stuff of that
28 nature. 10502
1 Q. Did you ever see Michael Jackson with Janet
2 Arvizo?
3 A. No, I don’t believe so.
4 Q. Did you ever see Michael Jackson with her
5 children?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what do you recall seeing?
8 A. Just them walking around the house area or
9 going up to the theater to view a movie.
10 Q. Did you ever see Michael Jackson do anything
11 you thought was inappropriate with those children?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. Now, you say you saw Michael Jackson and the
14 children walking up to the theater?
15 A. Yeah, they were -- once they were walking,
16 and also I remember taking them up in a van, as
17 well.
18 Q. And what was the purpose in going to the
19 theater, if you knew?
20 A. To view a movie. They were watching a
21 movie. I’m not sure -- it was a new release of some
22 kind.
23 Q. Did the kids seem to do that very often?
24 A. They used to go up to the theater quite
25 often. Not necessarily to view movies, but just to
26 go up there. There was candy and various other
27 things for them to go up there and have.
28 Q. Now, if Gavin, Star and Davellin went to the 10503
1 theater, how would they arrange to have a movie
2 shown; do you know?
3 A. They would usually -- somebody from the
4 house would usually contact one of us and we would
5 either contact the projectionist, or they would
6 either contact, you know, a security officer that
7 was directly in their sight, and then we would
8 contact a projectionist and have them come up to put
9 the movie on.
10 Q. Would that happen any time of day?
11 A. Yes. If there was a projectionist on
12 property, that could happen any time of day, night,
13 whatever.
14 Q. Do you recall seeing the Arvizo children at
15 the theater in the evening?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How many times do you think you saw the
18 Arvizo children at the theater in the evening?
19 A. I think the two times that I recall them
20 walking up, and the second time with me taking them
21 in the van, they were both in the evening time.
22 Q. Did you, as part of your work, go into the
23 main house ever?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And what would you do in the main house?
26 A. Either deliver messages, or there was a
27 couple of occasions that I was sent in to wake up
28 some individuals that were -- that were in the 10504
1 house.
2 Q. Okay. And who were they?
3 A. Those were the owner’s nephews that were
4 upstairs.
5 Q. And do you remember their names?
6 A. No, I do not.
7 Q. Okay. And they were Michael Jackson’s
8 nephews?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Where were they?
11 A. They were upstairs in the owner’s room.
12 Q. Okay. And describe, if you would, where
13 they were.
14 A. They were -- when I woke them up, the -- I
15 woke them up on two different occasions. And the
16 first occasion I believe they were on the floor in
17 sleeping bags. And the second time they were up and
18 about, you know, already walking around the room,
19 but they just didn’t want to get up, I guess, or
20 something.
21 Q. This is in Michael Jackson’s bedroom area?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Would you please describe that room area?
24 A. I only saw it from the doorway, which was --
25 you open the door, I just remember seeing -- there’s
26 a bed and then the floor area. There’s a lot of
27 stuff that was in there. You know, a lot of tables
28 and lamps and things like that. 10505
1 Q. Did you walk through that area?
2 A. No, I didn’t go into the room.
3 Q. Would you knock on the door?
4 A. Yes. Yeah.
5 Q. And someone answered?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Who was that?
8 A. That was one of the nephews at the door.
9 Q. At some point you saw them sleeping in the
10 room area; is that right?
11 A. That’s correct. That was on the first
12 occasion I saw them sleeping in the sleeping bags.
13 Q. Where were the sleeping bags?
14 A. On the floor. They were right near the door
15 in the sleeping bags.
16 Q. Okay. And you said that was a couple of
17 occasions that you saw that?
18 A. Them on the sleeping bags?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Only on the one. I woke them up on a couple
21 of occasions, but most of the time they were already
22 up. I saw the sleeping bags, but they were
23 usually -- just on the two occasions. The first
24 occasion, there was a couple -- the one nephew was
25 actually in the bed -- I mean, in the sleeping bag.
26 But the other occasion, they were already up. The
27 bags were down.
28 Q. And please describe what Mr. Jackson’s 10506
1 nephews look like.
2 A. Slender, fairly tall for their age, I would
3 think. African-American. That’s about --
4 Q. Boy? Girl?
5 A. Oh, they were both -- the two boys.
6 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. All right. Did you ever see
7 the Arvizo children in Mr. Jackson’s personal
8 quarters?
9 A. No, I did not.
10 Q. Do you recall ever bringing any soda or
11 popcorn to Mr. Jackson’s personal quarters and
12 seeing the Arvizo children in there?
13 A. Yeah, actually I did bring the popcorn.
14 They requested some popcorn and they were in there,
15 that’s correct.
16 Q. Who made the request?
17 A. That was made by, I believe, Star. I
18 believe Star was the one who made the phone call to
19 the security office.
20 Q. And he asked for someone to bring popcorn to
21 Mr. Jackson’s quarters?
22 A. Yeah, if I could bring some popcorn, sodas,
23 you know, Red Hots, snack items from the theater.
24 They didn’t want to have to come downstairs and go
25 to the theater.
26 Q. Did you do that for them?
27 A. Yes, I did.
28 Q. Did you talk to Star on the phone? 10507
1 A. Yes, I did. Yeah, that was -- I took the
2 phone call.
3 Q. And was it part of your responsibilities to
4 respond to requests like that?
5 A. Sure. It wasn’t out of the norm for me to
6 do that.
7 Q. If a guest asked for popcorn or food be
8 delivered, would you be one of the people who would
9 do that at Neverland?
10 A. Absolutely.
11 Q. This is during the night shift?
12 A. Night shift, day shift, yeah, whenever. Any
13 request that was given by a guest, we were more than
14 happy to help them out.
15 Q. And did you bring the food to Mr. Jackson’s
16 personal quarters?
17 A. Yes, correct.
18 Q. In response to Star’s request?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And approximately what time of day do you
21 think this was?
22 A. This was in the evening. It was probably
23 eight o’clock, 8:30, maybe, p.m.
24 Q. And did you go into Mr. Jackson’s room?
25 A. No, I didn’t. I stood at the door.
26 Q. Did you have a chance to look into the room?
27 A. I don’t believe I did.
28 Q. Okay. Do you recall seeing any sleeping 10508
1 bags in Mr. Jackson’s room?
2 A. Not on that particular night, no. As a
3 matter of fact, on that particular night, I saw the
4 children later on in their -- their sleeping
5 quarters down, you know, by the officers’ station,
6 those bungalow areas. They were -- that night they
7 were down there.
8 Q. These are the Arvizo children?
9 A. Those are the Arvizo children.
10 Q. And you’re referring to Gavin, Star and
11 Davellin?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And where did you actually see them?
14 A. On that night?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. They were -- later on, probably about an
17 hour and a half after I brought the candy and
18 popcorn to them, they were in their sleeping
19 quarters, and that would be -- I’m not sure if it
20 was the -- Room 1 or Room 2. It was one of the
21 rooms. And they were -- you know, they were inside.
22 They were in their pajamas, ready for bed, watching
23 T.V.
24 Q. And why is it that you went into the guest
25 quarters and saw the Arvizo children?
26 A. I was doing my rounds around that area, the
27 light was on, and they were goofing around. They
28 opened the door and they saw me, and we had a little 10509
1 conversation.
2 Q. What time of night do you think this was?
3 A. It had to be around 11:00. Yeah, it was
4 later at night. I know that, because the lights
5 were -- if they weren’t already off, the lights on
6 the property were getting ready to be shut off. I’m
7 not sure, but it was probably 11:00, 11:30.
8 Q. Typically in your work, would you check out
9 the guest quarters from time to time?
10 A. Absolutely. We would do that on 15- to
11 30-minute increments. We would check the guest
12 quarters as well as the main house, the perimeter
13 checks.
14 Q. And when you check guest quarters, what do
15 you do?
16 A. Just walk around the guest quarters
17 themselves, make sure that the doors are locked that
18 are supposed to be locked, and, you know, make sure
19 that the guests are either okay, or if they have
20 anything that they need, or, you know, we would give
21 them what they need, things like that.
22 Q. Do you know approximately when this was?
23 And I’m talking about the time you first saw the
24 Arvizo kids in Mr. Jackson’s room and then later on
25 saw them in the guest quarters.
26 A. The difference in time frame or the exact
27 time of night?
28 Q. Let me state that better. I asked a poor 10510
1 question. I’m talking about the month and year.
2 A. Oh. Probably the beginning of 2003. I left
3 employment in April, so it had to be prior to April.
4 Maybe February.
5 Q. Do you remember seeing the Arvizos during a
6 time when you thought it was their final visit?
7 A. Well, I didn’t know if it was their final
8 visit, but I recall them -- seeing them when they
9 were packing out at a late hour.
10 Q. And do you recall seeing them leave?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Did you ever see them come back
13 again?
14 A. After that, no, I did not.
15 Q. Okay. Now, when -- let me rephrase that.
16 The time you saw them earlier in Mr.
17 Jackson’s room and then later on in the guest
18 quarters, was that close to the time when you
19 believe they were last at Neverland?
20 A. Yeah, that was probably the last visit they
21 were there. If not, it was around the last visit
22 they were there.
23 Q. Now, you checked the guest quarters, you
24 think, around 11:30, right?
25 A. Correct.
26 Q. Did you check them again that evening?
27 A. Well, yeah, like I said, I would do my every
28 15- to 30-minute checks, and then after -- after 10511
1 midnight, one o’clock, I think one o’clock would
2 have been my last check, right around that time
3 frame, and then I was to relieve the officer at the
4 front gate.
5 Q. Now, in the main house, when you would do
6 your security checks, where would you go?
7 A. Around the house. We would check the
8 arcade, the bathrooms, the pool area, and just
9 around the main house in general.
10 Q. Do you know where the wine cellar is?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. And as part of your security check, would
13 you go into the wine cellar from time to time?
14 A. Periodically. It wasn’t a complete
15 destination, but we would -- we would check the --
16 to make sure that the lights were off down in
17 that -- in that little corridor, as well as the
18 jukebox was placed in front of it blocking the
19 entrance.
20 Q. And how often would you check that area of
21 the house during your shift?
22 A. If I was on the 12-hour shift, personally I
23 would check that area -- I would go through the
24 arcade every occasion that I would do a house check,
25 which was every 30 -- you know, 30 minutes. So --
26 but I wouldn’t physically go down to check the door
27 unless there was reason to believe that that area
28 was -- you know, there was somebody down there or 10512
1 there was a reason to check that door physically.
2 Q. What kind of a reason would you need to do a
3 security check of the wine cellar?
4 A. Either I saw lights, heard a noise, the
5 jukebox was moved away from the area, or someone had
6 requested that I go to check that area. Or if I
7 knew that people were actually in the arcade, then I
8 would go down and check that area.
9 Q. During any of your security checks in
10 February of 2003, did you ever find Gavin and Star
11 in the wine cellar?
12 A. I did find them in the wine cellar. And I’m
13 not sure of the time frame when they were there, but
14 there was a night that I did find them in the wine
15 cellar, or an evening.
16 Q. Was it in the year 2003, to your knowledge?
17 A. I believe so.
18 Q. Were they with anybody else?
19 A. No, it was just the two of them.
20 Q. Why did you go into the wine cellar to check
21 it on that particular day?
22 A. The jukebox was moved away from the
23 stairwell, and I could see that there was a light on
24 from under the door. Because the game room was
25 dark, there was no light on in the game room, so I
26 could see the light from under the door.
27 Q. You went down the stairs?
28 A. Correct. 10513
1 Q. You went to see the wine cellar, correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. What did you see?
4 A. When I walked in, I saw the two children
5 laughing, giggling, whatever. They were -- they
6 were obviously startled. I kind of snuck down on
7 them, because I wasn’t sure who was down there. And
8 they kind of looked at me, and, you know, were
9 laughing, and I could see them with a bottle of
10 alcohol that was in front of them.
11 Q. Was the bottle open?
12 A. Yes, it was.
13 Q. Did you say anything to them?
14 A. Yeah, I told them that they needed to get
15 out of that area right now and get upstairs, which
16 they did.
17 Q. Did you see Michael Jackson anywhere near
18 that wine cellar on that occasion?
19 A. No. No, he wasn’t there.
20 Q. Was there anybody else there besides Gavin
21 and Star?
22 A. No, it was just the two boys.
23 Q. Did they seem to respond to your request?
24 A. Yeah. Yeah, they were pretty shaken.
25 Q. And what did you see next?
26 A. Then I just inspected the area to see
27 exactly -- to see if I could figure out exactly what
28 they were doing down there, and that’s when I took a 10514
1 closer look at the bottle and I noticed there was --
2 some of the contents were missing out of the bottle.
3 Q. Did you determine how much of the bottle
4 was -- excuse me, how much of the contents of the
5 bottle was missing?
6 A. It was about half full.
7 Q. Do you remember who was -- was anybody
8 holding the bottle?
9 A. No, they were just standing. The bottle was
10 on the table. There was a little kitchenette area
11 that’s in the -- in that wine cellar area. And the
12 bottle was in front of them, and the two boys were
13 kind of around the bottle, but nobody was
14 physically -- I didn’t see anybody physically
15 holding it.
16 Q. And when you -- did you ask them to leave?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Did they leave?
19 A. Yes, they did.
20 Q. Did they leave quickly?
21 A. Yes, they did.
22 Q. Did they actually run up the stairs?
23 A. Yes, they scurried.
24 Q. All right. Did they say anything to you in
25 response to your request that they leave?
26 A. Nothing, other than they were -- they were
27 kind of caught off guard, so they were, you know, a
28 little surprised. And they just -- they just took 10515
1 off, you know, when I told them that they needed to
2 be -- that they weren’t supposed to be down there
3 and they needed to be upstairs, they -- you know,
4 they turned and hightailed it out of there.
5 Q. Now, at some point, you saw the Arvizos
6 leave for what you think was the last trip from
7 Neverland, right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Do you know approximately how close to that
10 date the incident in the wine cellar was?
11 A. I think it was the visit prior to that. It
12 was -- it was fairly close. I mean, all their
13 visits were -- that I recall, were very close
14 together towards the end of their -- that last
15 visit, or that I assumed was the last visit, because
16 I didn’t see them after that again.
17 Q. Do you recall the time you think they left
18 for the final time?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Approximately when was that?
21 A. That was, I believe, in February, March.
22 Q. And did you see them actually in the process
23 of leaving?
24 A. That’s correct. Yeah, I was doing a house
25 check, and they were -- the -- they were being
26 packed out -- they had -- one of the limos was in
27 the back of the house, and Jesus Salas was helping
28 them with their luggage, which there was a lot of 10516
1 luggage that was being packed up, so I helped them
2 pack that luggage up.
3 Q. Did they ask you for your help or did you
4 volunteer it?
5 A. I volunteered my help.
6 Q. Okay. And did they seem to want you to help
7 them?
8 A. Oh, sure. The kids weren’t doing anything
9 physically. They were just getting ready for the
10 ride home. They were kind of watching us do the
11 labor.
12 Q. Did you talk to Janet at all as you were
13 helping them load the car?
14 A. No, I did not. No. I spoke to the
15 children, but I didn’t speak to her.
16 Q. Did the children appear upset at all?
17 A. No, not at all.
18 Q. What was your impression of their demeanor?
19 A. They were in fairly good spirits. I mean,
20 despite how -- you know, whatever. It was kind of a
21 late hour. I know it was probably one o’clock, two
22 o’clock in the morning. But they seemed in pretty
23 good spirits. I mean, they said -- you know, they
24 said goodbye and they’d see me again on the next
25 visit.
26 Q. Did you ever hear Janet Arvizo ever complain
27 about Michael Jackson?
28 A. No, I did not. 10517
1 Q. Did you ever hear Gavin Arvizo ever complain
2 about Michael Jackson?
3 A. No, I did not.
4 Q. Did you ever hear Star Arvizo ever complain
5 about Michael Jackson?
6 A. No, I did not.
7 Q. Did you ever hear Davellin Arvizo complain
8 about Michael Jackson?
9 A. No, I did not.
10 Q. Did Janet Arvizo say anything to you at any
11 time about being held against her will at Neverland?
12 A. Not to me.
13 Q. Now, when you were helping them load their
14 luggage into the vehicle, what do you recall
15 actually putting into the vehicle?
16 A. Duffel bags. They were, you know, like gym
17 bags, sort of large duffel bags. That’s what I
18 helped load in. You know, I got there at the tail
19 end of the loading, so I just -- there was maybe
20 three bags left, four bags. I know there was some
21 toys and things, too. But most of them were duffel
22 bags. And like I say, it was the tail end of the
23 packing.
24 Q. Did you ever see a backpack?
25 A. I do not recall a backpack.
26 Q. Okay. Who owned the duffel bags, if you
27 know?
28 A. I don’t know. I believe they were 10518
1 everyone’s. I mean, you know, they didn’t actually
2 have names on them and nobody was standing next to
3 them to claim either one of them. They just -- they
4 were just there by the back of the car and I helped
5 load them in the back of the car.
6 Q. And did you help Janet load her possessions
7 into the vehicle?
8 A. I’m not sure if any of those possessions
9 were Janet’s or not. Like I say, nobody laid claim
10 to anything that I loaded in there. They were just
11 standing, watching, and I helped load those bags in.
12 Q. Is that the last time you saw them?
13 A. That was the last time that I saw them,
14 yeah.
15 Q. Did you ever speak to Janet on the phone at
16 any time?
17 A. Merely to -- yeah, actually, I did. But it
18 was merely to pass along messages to the -- to the
19 owner.
20 Q. And how often did you do that?
21 A. I probably spoke to her on the phone maybe
22 twice, three times.
23 Q. So she would call you to give a message to
24 Michael Jackson?
25 A. She would call to see if she could be put
26 through to Mr. Jackson. And we would try to ring
27 him and get him on the phone that way, or we would
28 just send her -- send the call directly to the house 10519
1 itself, and she could try her luck that way.
2 Q. As far as you know, was that the standard
3 way she tried to reach Michael?
4 A. As far as I know, yeah. That’s how she
5 pretty much tried to reach him.
6 Q. So she would try to go through you to get
7 connected to Michael Jackson?
8 A. That’s correct. Now, if she called a
9 private line or something like that, I would have no
10 knowledge of that.
11 Q. Okay. Now, did you have any knowledge,
12 during the time you worked at Neverland, about how
13 one would get into the wine cellar?
14 A. Yes. Yeah.
15 Q. What was your knowledge about that?
16 A. You would -- the door was usually locked,
17 but it wasn’t always locked, and you would have
18 to -- you’d have to unlock that door to gain access
19 to it. But the door was always shut.
20 Q. Did you ever determine how the two Arvizo
21 boys got into that cellar?
22 A. No, I did not. And I didn’t take it any
23 further than what it was. I told the house manager
24 about the incident and I told my supervisor about -
25 Violet Silva - the incident. But other than that,
26 I didn’t do any further investigating as far as how
27 they got into the cellar.
28 Q. Was that the only time you saw Gavin and 10520
1 Star Arvizo drinking in the wine cellar?
2 A. Well, that was the only time I saw them in
3 the wine cellar, yeah.
4 Q. Did you know anything about where a key was
5 kept to get into that cellar?
6 A. We had a key in the officers’ station, yeah.
7 Q. And where was that kept?
8 A. That key was kept in our filing cabinet,
9 locked in the top of the filing cabinet.
10 Q. Do you know if there was a key in an
11 employee break room?
12 A. That I do not know. Possibly. I mean,
13 that’s a good possibility. Somebody in the house
14 might have had -- one of the house individuals might
15 have had a key.
16 Q. Now, when you say “possibly,” what do you
17 mean?
18 A. Well, I mean, I don’t recall them ever --
19 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Object.
20 THE WITNESS: Go ahead.
21 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Object. Foundation.
22 THE COURT: Overruled.
23 You may complete your answer.
24 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat it?
25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Let me withdraw the
26 question and ask it again.
27 You said possibly there was another place
28 where a key was kept, in the employee break room? 10521
1 A. Right. Yeah, I knew that there was keys
2 that were located in the break room, but I didn’t
3 know what those keys were or what they were to.
4 Q. Did you ever see any of the Arvizo children
5 in that area?
6 A. Personally, I did not see anybody in that
7 area. It wasn’t frequently that I would go into
8 that area, though, since it was located in the
9 house.
10 Q. To your knowledge, how many keys were there
11 to the wine cellar at Neverland?
12 A. To my knowledge, I would assume it was just
13 our key. We had the only key. I mean, I don’t know
14 for sure, but that’s the only key that I was aware
15 of.
16 Q. Do you know if Joe Marcus, for example, had
17 access to a key?
18 A. Possibly. I mean, that could be possible.
19 Q. Do you know if the cooks had access to keys?
20 A. I don’t believe the key -- the cooks did,
21 because I recall them frequently asking us to unlock
22 that door for them.
23 Q. Do you have any knowledge of cooks going up
24 and down the stairs into the wine cellar to get food
25 that was in the refrigerated wine cellar?
26 A. Yes, I do.
27 Q. Okay. But do you have any idea how they
28 would gain access when they did that? 10522
1 A. When they did that, they would ask us for
2 access into the cellar. It was pretty frequent that
3 we would -- if they needed access to that cellar,
4 that we would open it and just leave it open, since
5 they would be going -- if they were going to be
6 getting food or drinks or whatever from that cellar,
7 they would need nonstop access, so we would just
8 leave it open, and they would come and go as they
9 pleased.
10 It wasn’t feasible for us to continually
11 open and lock, open and lock, open and lock, every
12 time they needed to get access to it.
13 Q. So are you saying that there were periods of
14 time when it was open for quite a while?
15 A. Yes, that’s correct.
16 Q. And when it was open, how long would it be
17 open?
18 A. Well, it depends on the -- on the checks.
19 If there was nobody -- if there was visibly nobody
20 that was entering the wine cellar, and we could see
21 that they were done there, we were doing our 15- or
22 30-minute checks, then we’d go ahead and secure it.
23 But if we could still see individuals coming and
24 going, we would leave it open. So it just depended
25 on visually what we saw on our rounds, on our
26 checks.
27 Q. Now, if you had a large event at Neverland,
28 where a lot of food was being prepared by the cooks, 10523
1 would it be accurate to say that probably the wine
2 cellar might be open for hours so people could go
3 back and forth with -- and get food or wine?
4 A. That would be -- that would be a fair
5 assumption, yeah. It could be open for an entire
6 shift.
7 Q. When you saw Gavin and Star Arvizo in the
8 wine cellar alone, you had no idea how they got in
9 there, right?
10 A. No, I did not.
11 Q. Okay. Did you ask them, “How did you get
12 in?”
13 A. No, I did not.
14 Q. Would you see them all over Neverland while
15 they were visiting?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What would you see them doing?
18 A. Usually playing. They were either, like I
19 said, at the theater, riding the go-carts -- I mean,
20 the golf carts. On the rides. Up at the train
21 station. Back at the zoo. They’d be everywhere,
22 just doing, you know, what -- basically just doing
23 whatever they wanted to.
24 Q. In your opinion, were they well behaved?
25 A. Not -- not -- I mean, they weren’t
26 completely out -- they were acting, you know, not
27 like totally out of control, but they were pretty
28 much -- you know, they were there to have fun, and 10524
1 they were -- there was occasions where they’d break
2 things, let me put it that way. I mean, there’s
3 occasions where they would, you know, destroy some
4 property.
5 Q. What property are you talking about?
6 A. Golf cart. They crashed a golf cart and did
7 some damage to it, which they -- which they denied
8 doing. But later they admitted to doing it. And I
9 believe that’s the only real damage, other than
10 turning rocks over or just throwing trash around
11 and, you know, things like that.
12 Q. Where would they throw trash around?
13 A. Pretty much anywhere they were at around the
14 ranch. They’d throw, you know, wrappers of candy
15 bars, and things like that, just kind of anywhere.
16 Q. Anything else they did that bothered you?
17 A. There wasn’t -- you know, there wasn’t --
18 like I said, they weren’t -- they weren’t too bad.
19 Q. Now, when they crashed the go-carts, did you
20 make a report?
21 A. A report was made, but it wasn’t made by me.
22 One of the other officers made that report.
23 Q. Did you actually see it happen?
24 A. I saw the golf cart. I didn’t witness them
25 crashing. I saw them coming from the area where
26 that golf cart was, but I didn’t actually -- I don’t
27 think anyone actually witnessed the -- you know, the
28 crashing of the golf cart. But they were the only 10525
1 people -- they were the only kids that were there at
2 that time, the only people.
3 Q. Now, was your job at Neverland the first job
4 you had had in the area of security?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. And how are you currently employed?
7 A. I’m employed at the Lompoc prison.
8 Q. Okay. What do you do there?
9 A. I’m a correctional officer.
10 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. No further questions.
11
12 CROSS-EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS:
14 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Meridith.
15 A. Good afternoon sir. How are you doing?
16 Q. I’m doing very well, thank you.
17 Your job as a security officer at Neverland,
18 part of that job was to prevent intruders from
19 coming onto Neverland; is that fair?
20 A. That’s correct.
21 Q. Did you wear a uniform for that job?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. All the security guards wear uniforms?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Pretty visible presence there at Neverland?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Is that designed to give intruders some
28 visible presence so that they know that they’re 10526
1 going to have to get through the security guard to
2 get onto the property?
3 A. Yes, sir, that’s a fair assumption.
4 Q. All right. And the guests are aware of your
5 presence?
6 A. Absolutely.
7 Q. And your job is to keep them safe as much as
8 the owner; is that fair to say?
9 A. That’s correct.
10 Q. All right. Now, as far as the Arvizo boys
11 at Neverland, you mentioned that they were a little
12 rambunctious; is that a fair assessment?
13 A. That’s fair, yeah.
14 Q. And is it also fair to say that all the kids
15 who come and stay at Neverland for extended periods
16 eventually start to become pretty rambunctious?
17 A. Eventually. There’s no real supervision,
18 and kids are going to be kids. So it’s not uncommon
19 for -- children that, you know, are on the ranch
20 kind of get the emperor feeling and kind of act up.
21 Q. Is it fair to say that the fact there really
22 is no supervision, they get to kind of do whatever
23 they please, one thing leads to another, and that’s
24 probably when they start to get somewhat destructive
25 or rambunctious?
26 A. I’m sure, yeah, that’s a fair assumption.
27 Q. Okay. What about Mr. Jackson’s cousins,
28 would you characterize them in the same fashion? 10527
1 A. They -- they pretty much came and went. You
2 know, they were never there for an extended period
3 of time. They would maybe be a night or two nights
4 or a weekend, so they were -- they were -- they were
5 pretty much okay. I don’t think they had a lot of
6 idle time. They were there strictly to visit and
7 then they would go. I don’t recall them ever doing
8 anything other than playing basketball.
9 Q. Would they ever break things?
10 A. That I -- I don’t know. No, I don’t recall.
11 I don’t recall that they ever broke anything.
12 Q. Now, at one time you were interviewed by, I
13 believe, the defense investigator, and you indicated
14 to him that you thought the wine incident was around
15 Christmas of 2002; is that --
16 A. Yeah, it was roughly around the time of
17 their -- you know, all in that area, the Christmas,
18 February, March. I mean, it was all around that
19 time. I’m not real sure on the exact time frame.
20 Q. As far as your patrol duties go, your patrol
21 duties don’t really take you inside the main house
22 unless there’s some specific reason; is that fair?
23 A. That’s correct.
24 Q. Okay. And this one incident where you went
25 into the main house to -- actually, I believe you
26 said there were two incidents where you went into
27 the main house to wake up the nephews?
28 A. Correct. 10528
1 Q. And you said you went upstairs to do that;
2 is that right?
3 A. That’s correct. Yeah.
4 Q. So you went to a bedroom up the main
5 staircase?
6 A. That’s correct.
7 Q. So as you enter Neverland, or I should say
8 as you enter the main house through the main front
9 doors, to the right is a stairway?
10 A. That’s correct. I would come in from the
11 back door, though. We didn’t usually access the
12 front door unless we were requested.
13 Q. So coming into the main hallway, you see a
14 very large staircase there --
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. -- is that right?
17 Is that the stairway you went up to go to
18 the bedroom where you woke up these children?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. And they were in a room with some sleeping
21 bags?
22 A. On -- on one occasion, they had the sleeping
23 bags with the children. When I woke up the nephews
24 the first time, they were in the sleeping bags. On
25 the second occasion that I recall, they were already
26 up and, you know, around and about in there.
27 Q. Did you see Mr. Jackson at that time?
28 A. I did not, no. 10529
1 Q. You said that there was an incident where
2 you saw Gavin and Star in the wine cellar?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Now, your routine as a security officer is
5 to go around and check doors and make sure they’re
6 locked; is that right?
7 A. That’s correct.
8 Q. How often do you make your rounds in the
9 evening?
10 A. Like I said, we usually do them 15-,
11 30-minute rounds.
12 Q. When you make those rounds, is one of your
13 duties to check the wine cellar and make sure it’s
14 locked?
15 A. That’s a fair assumption. I think it would
16 be to go downstairs and actually physically check
17 that door.
18 Q. So if that door is left unlocked, would it
19 be reasonable to say that it’s not unlocked for very
20 long. Eventually some security guard goes down
21 there and locks it?
22 A. Correct. That’s correct. As long as
23 there’s nobody visibly -- you know, house staff
24 that’s visibly coming in and out of that.
25 Q. You mentioned that. If there’s some
26 activity where people are moving in and out, you’ll
27 just let it remain open?
28 A. Right. We’ll just kind of leave it open. 10530
1 Q. When you went down there, Star and Gavin
2 were laughing?
3 A. Yeah, they were having a good time. They
4 were obviously playing, goofing off.
5 Q. Did they seem intoxicated at all?
6 A. You know, I didn’t even get to talk to them
7 that long. All I did when I came downstairs was,
8 you know, just tell them that they weren’t supposed
9 to be in that area and they knew better than that,
10 and they needed to get upstairs immediately.
11 Q. You said there was a half bottle of wine
12 that had been opened?
13 A. That’s correct.
14 Q. Do you remember where that half bottle of
15 wine was in relation to Gavin and Star when you went
16 in the room?
17 A. They were behind the -- like I said, when
18 you walk into that -- to the wine cellar, there’s a
19 kitchen area that’s in there. There’s a table in
20 that kitchen area. The wine was sitting there, and
21 they were on either side of that bottle, just kind
22 of standing, you know, standing, laughing, goofing
23 off, pushing each other, doing things like that.
24 Q. Any glasses?
25 A. No, I didn’t see any glasses.
26 Q. Did you smell any alcohol on their breath?
27 A. No, I did not. I did not.
28 Q. So you really don’t know whether or not they 10531
1 had been drinking that alcohol?
2 A. No. I can’t guarantee that they were
3 actually drinking the alcohol.
4 Q. Was Mr. Jackson on the property at the time?
5 A. Yes, sir, I believe he was.
6 Q. All right. Do you know if he’d been
7 spending some time with Gavin and Star?
8 A. Not that evening, I don’t believe so.
9 Q. Would you know that? Were you spending time
10 around Gavin and Star that evening?
11 A. I would see them. I mean, at that time,
12 they were our only guests, so, you know, I would
13 see -- if they were out and about, then I would --
14 you know, I would see them.
15 Q. Was their mother there at the time?
16 A. I believe Janet was there at the time.
17 Q. Are you sure about that or --
18 A. No, I’m not positive. I’m not positive.
19 Q. As far as these dates go, did you make any
20 notations or notes or anything?
21 A. Nothing really stood out in my mind as far
22 as -- you know, as far as the circumstances
23 surrounding any of those instances, so I didn’t
24 really -- you know, other than making reports if
25 something was damaged, or the instance where they
26 were drinking in the cellar where I told my
27 supervisor. Or where I assumed they were drinking
28 in the cellar. 10532
1 Q. Did you make any reports about that?
2 A. Other than telling my supervisor, that’s all
3 I did.
4 Q. When they left the wine cellar, did they
5 appear to have a key with them?
6 A. No, they did not. Not that I could see.
7 Q. Did it ever come to your attention that they
8 had a key?
9 A. I have no knowledge whether they had a key
10 or not.
11 Q. Mr. Jackson, of course, has access to that
12 wine cellar; is that true?
13 A. With -- usually Mr. Jackson would call and
14 ask one of us to unlock that wine cellar if he
15 wanted access to it. It wasn’t frequent that I ever
16 saw him go down there, though. I mean, on my shift,
17 you know.
18 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Thank you. No further
19 questions.
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
21 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions, Your
22 Honor.
23 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. You may
24 step down.
25 Call your next witness.
26 MR. MESEREAU: Defense will call Mr. Brian
27 Salce.
28 THE COURT: Please remain standing. Face the 10533
1 clerk and raise your right hand.
2 BRIAN SALCE
3 Having been sworn, testified as follows:
4
5 THE WITNESS: I do.
6 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and
7 spell your name for the record.
8 THE WITNESS: My name is Brian Salce.
9 B-r-i-a-n; S-a-l-c-e.
10 THE CLERK: Thank you.
11
12 DIRECT EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. MESEREAU:
14 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Salce.
15 Mr. Salce, where are you currently employed?
16 A. Neverland Ranch.
17 Q. And how long have you worked at Neverland
18 Ranch?
19 A. On and off for six years in October.
20 Q. And do you know the fellow seated at counsel
21 table to my right?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Who is he?
24 A. Mr. Jackson.
25 Q. Okay. He’s your employer?
26 A. Yes, sir.
27 Q. All right. What kind of jobs have you held
28 at Neverland Ranch? 10534
1 A. When I started there, I was in the fire
2 academy. And I was hired as a safety officer doing
3 security work. Then when I completed the fire
4 academy, I was promoted to firefighter, and I did
5 that for most of the time I was there. Became a
6 supervisor, and then just recently was promoted to
7 fire chief.
8 Q. And where is the fire academy?
9 A. Allan Hancock.
10 Q. And when did you attend the fire academy?
11 A. In ‘99, I believe.
12 Q. And how long a course was that?
13 A. That’s -- I took the nine-month. I took it
14 at night. There’s a daytime and a night. I took
15 the nighttime, Tuesday and Thursday nights, and
16 Saturday days.
17 Q. So you are a trained firefighter?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. And when you become a trained firefighter,
20 do you get some type of a license?
21 A. Yes, it’s -- as far as I know, most of the
22 fire academies are state-certified fire academies.
23 At least that’s what I went to at Allan Hancock.
24 When you’re done with that, then you hold a state
25 certificate.
26 Q. Now, there is a portion of Neverland that’s
27 involved in fighting fires if necessary, right?
28 A. Yes, sir. 10535
1 Q. And please describe that.
2 A. That would be the fire department.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. And -- where you have firefighting
5 equipment. We have a fire engine. We train. We do
6 everything we’re -- you know, we’re -- that you
7 would do as a firefighter.
8 Q. Are you -- excuse me. When you were working
9 with the fire department at Neverland, were you the
10 only firefighter?
11 A. No, sir.
12 Q. How many, typically, did you have in the
13 fire department at Neverland?
14 A. We -- over my course of employment, we would
15 run anywhere from seven to fifteen firefighters,
16 possibly more.
17 Q. And were most of these firefighters trained
18 the way you were?
19 A. Absolutely. In order to be employed as a
20 firefighter, you have to go through a fire academy,
21 state certified.
22 Q. Now, would these individuals typically come
23 to work at Neverland after attending the fire
24 academy?
25 A. Yes. On some occasions, like with myself,
26 they would start there. We had one employee that
27 started there, was working as a safety officer, and
28 then just from interacting with the firefighters 10536
1 realized that that’s something he may be interested
2 in, and then he enrolled in the fire academy. And
3 I --
4 Q. Now, would there be firefighters at
5 Neverland 24 hours a day?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. And how many -- excuse me, let me rephrase
8 that.
9 What would your typical shift be at
10 Neverland as a firefighter?
11 A. Hourly?
12 Q. Yes, please.
13 A. Since I’ve been employed with Neverland,
14 we’ve ran from either 6:00 in the morning to 6:30
15 p.m., or 6 p.m. until 6:30 in the morning. So you
16 have a half hour of overlapping.
17 Q. On each shift, how many firefighters would
18 there be?
19 A. It’s varied over the years. We used to
20 always try to have two firefighters, with a minimum
21 of one. But over different times when they’ve had
22 different levels of employment, sometimes we have
23 not had a firefighter there.
24 Q. And during the year of 2003, I’m talking
25 particularly about the first three months of the
26 year, January, February and March, did you typically
27 have firefighters present at Neverland?
28 A. I was not employed during those dates. 10537
1 Q. Okay. Do you know if any firefighters were
2 there during that period of time?
3 A. I would not know that, sir.
4 Q. Okay. When did you last work as a
5 firefighter at Neverland?
6 A. Yesterday.
7 Q. Okay. All right. You were at Neverland in
8 2003, were you not?
9 A. I was -- I left Neverland in -- I left in --
10 I’m drawing a blank -- in 2002 of November, I
11 believe, and came back June of 2003.
12 Q. Do you remember ever meeting a family named
13 Arvizo?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. And what do you remember about them?
16 A. I -- I -- nothing different than any other
17 guests.
18 Q. Did you ever meet Janet Arvizo?
19 A. I did on one occasion.
20 Q. And describe that occasion, if you would.
21 A. Met her -- it was the day of an event. Met
22 her in the theater. The three children were with
23 her. They introduced her to me, and right away, she
24 knew who I was, said that the kids spoke very highly
25 of me; that they really liked me; that I was very
26 nice to them. Gave me a hug. And asked me if I
27 liked Mexican food and gave me their number and
28 address and told me to write the kids. Said if I’m 10538
1 ever in L.A., I should stop by the house and eat
2 Mexican food is what she said.
3 Q. Did you ever do that?
4 A. No, sir.
5 Q. Okay. You met her children?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. And were they Gavin, Star and Davellin, to
8 your knowledge?
9 A. Yes, sir, I believe so.
10 Q. Two boys and a girl?
11 A. I remember Gavin and Star. The girl’s name
12 I wasn’t always clear on.
13 Q. Did you ever observe the children at
14 Neverland?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. What did you see them doing?
17 A. Playing with the golf carts. Just more
18 outdoor stuff. Riding quads, things of that nature.
19 Q. Did you ever see Michael Jackson with the
20 Arvizo children?
21 A. I saw him interact with them, but not in --
22 not in great lengths. It was --
23 Q. And where do you think you saw Mr. Jackson
24 interact with the Arvizo children?
25 A. I believe I saw him talking to them one day
26 near the main house.
27 Q. Now, where is the fire station in relation
28 to the main house? 10539
1 A. Well, what we actually call the fire station
2 used to be up at the administration office. We
3 called it the fire station. It housed the fire
4 engine, but we didn’t actually -- we weren’t housed
5 there. We were at an office down closer to the main
6 house.
7 Q. When you say “closer to the main house,”
8 what do you mean?
9 A. Connected by a breezeway, but not part of
10 the same structure.
11 Q. When did the fire station become permanently
12 located up top?
13 A. When I started there. That’s what they had
14 always called the fire station.
15 Q. Now, if you’re at the fire station, do you
16 have a view of Neverland?
17 A. Of --
18 Q. What do you see as you look out the windows
19 at the fire station?
20 A. One window you see railroad tracks on a
21 hillside. Excuse me. Another window you see the
22 same. The other window you can see the parking lot
23 for the administration office.
24 Q. As a firefighter, do you patrol around
25 Neverland as part of your duties?
26 A. Yes, sir.
27 Q. Please explain what you mean.
28 A. We -- the firefighters are trained as 10540
1 firefighters, but everybody in our safety department
2 acts as a safety officer or a security officer as
3 well, so we trade off with shifts at the gate or
4 driving around and patrolling the property. Just to
5 make sure nothing is out of place or anything of
6 that nature.
7 Q. Now, as a security officer, what were your
8 duties at Neverland?
9 A. Primarily it was to come in and get pass-on
10 from the shift prior. We would spend a certain
11 amount of time at the front gate, depending on
12 staffing. Could be anywhere from four to six hours.
13 And then we would spend -- if you spend four there,
14 you would spend four patrolling. You could open
15 buildings, certain buildings, in the morning to
16 start the day, or at the end of the day you could
17 lock buildings up. We would, depending on the hour,
18 check on just animals, the zoo. You know, a lot of
19 it’s making sure doors are locked, or unlocked.
20 Just washing the vehicle, washing the fire engine.
21 And then the other thing, we would do house
22 checks. If we were stationed at the house, at that
23 office, we would do a house check every hour or so.
24 And we would walk around the house, check doors,
25 make sure that they’re secure or unsecured,
26 depending on what the, you know, directive was.
27 Q. And does that happen every shift?
28 A. Yes, sir. 10541
1 Q. Would you check the guest quarters as well?
2 A. The guest quarters we would check. We would
3 check most of the time. If we didn’t have guests,
4 we would make sure the doors are secured. If we had
5 guests, we wouldn’t mess with the door that had a
6 guest, so we didn’t interrupt them, but the other
7 ones that were supposed to be empty we would check,
8 yes, sir.
9 Q. And what are the locations at Neverland
10 where you saw the Arvizo children?
11 A. I remember one time in particular at the
12 theater, and I remember another time that we had to --
13 we had to go get them from down by the front gate.
14 They had gone either horseback riding or quad
15 riding, I don’t remember exactly which it was, and I
16 believe the little girl needed to go back to her
17 guest unit. I think she was asthmatic and she
18 needed to get her inhaler or something. I think.
19 I’m not sure.
20 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Jackson act
21 inappropriately with the Arvizo children?
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. Did the Arvizo children ever complain to you
24 about Mr. Jackson?
25 A. No, sir.
26 Q. Did Mrs. -- Mrs. Arvizo ever complain to you
27 about Michael Jackson?
28 A. No, sir. I met her on that one occasion and 10542
1 she was happy and laughing, and that was my only
2 contact with her.
3 Q. Did you see her walking around the property?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. That was the only day that I know of her
7 being there when I have been employed there.
8 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. No further questions.
9
10 CROSS-EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS:
12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Salce.
13 A. Good afternoon, sir.
14 Q. I just want to be clear on the period of
15 time that you were not at Neverland.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. You mentioned a period of several months
18 when you were not employed there.
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Can you mention that for me again, the exact
21 dates?
22 A. I started in October of ‘99. I left in
23 November, I believe it was end of November of 2002.
24 And then I started again -- I then worked for
25 another company. Came back in, I believe, June of
26 2003.
27 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: All right. Thank you very
28 much. No further questions. 10543
1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
2 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions.
3 THE COURT: Thank you. May step down.
4 Call your next witness.
5 MR. SANGER: Yes, Your Honor. The defense
6 will call Commander Russ Birchim.
7 THE COURT: Come forward, please. When you
8 get to the witness stand, remain standing.
9 Face the clerk here and raise your right
10 hand.
11
12 RUSSELL ROBERT BIRCHIM
13 Having been sworn, testified as follows:
14
15 THE WITNESS: I do.
16 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and
17 spell your name for the record.
18 THE WITNESS: Russell Robert Birchim. B, as
19 in boy, i-r-c-h-i-m.
20 THE CLERK: Thank you.
21
22 DIRECT EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. SANGER:
24 Q. Commander Birchim; is that right?
25 A. Correct.
26 Q. Commander Birchim, the first thing is you
27 need to lean into that microphone on the right side.
28 It’s hard for everybody to get close in this 10544
1 courtroom for some reason.
2 How are you employed?
3 A. I’m employed by the Santa Barbara County
4 Sheriff’s Department.
5 Q. You’re a commander in that department --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- is that correct?
8 Were you employed by the Santa Barbara
9 County Sheriff’s Department in 1993 and 1994?
10 A. Yes, I was.
11 Q. And in early 1994, what was your position at
12 that time?
13 A. I was in the CID, the detective bureau, as a
14 detective.
15 Q. CID stands for Criminal Investigations --
16 A. That’s correct.
17 Q. -- Division?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. In any event, you were a detective,
20 right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you have occasion to work with Detective
23 Monk?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You recall, in 1993, do you not, contacting
26 a Kassim Abdool and a Ralph Chacon?
27 A. No.
28 Q. Okay. Do you recall working on an 10545
1 investigation regarding Mr. Jackson?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you recall contacting two security guards
4 for the purpose of serving them with a grand jury
5 subpoena?
6 A. In 1994, yes. Not ‘93.
7 Q. Did I say ‘93?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I’m sorry. Okay. In 1994, did you contact
10 Kassim and Ralph Chacon?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. There you go. All right. And where did you
13 first contact them?
14 A. At their homes in Lompoc, their respective
15 homes.
16 Q. All right. And what was the purpose of
17 contacting them?
18 A. Serve them with grand jury subpoenas, a
19 sitting grand jury in Los Angeles, California, I
20 think, for May 9th of ‘94.
21 Q. All right. Did you, by chance, review your
22 report before you came to testify?
23 A. I reviewed a lot of reports, but yes.
24 Q. Okay. Well, that’s good. So based on your
25 reviewing your report, you’ve refreshed your
26 recollection as to these events; is that correct?
27 A. That’s correct.
28 Q. All right. Now, did you -- let’s start with 10546
1 Kassim Abdool. He was at his house in Lompoc when
2 you made contact?
3 A. That’s correct.
4 Q. And both you and Detective Monk went to his
5 house; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And did you both -- excuse me. Did you both
8 identify yourselves as sheriff’s detectives?
9 A. Yes, we did.
10 Q. Did you serve him with the subpoena? You
11 accomplished that task?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And at that time, did he give you any
14 information about criminal activity or alleged
15 criminal activity with regard to anyone at Neverland
16 Valley Ranch?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you leave him, then, with a subpoena and
19 go about your business?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you also contact Ralph Chacon?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And similarly, did you and Detective Monk
24 meet him at his house in Lompoc?
25 A. Yes, we did.
26 Q. Did you serve him with a grand jury subpoena
27 for the L.A. County Grand Jury?
28 A. Yes. 10547
1 Q. And I take it you also identified yourselves
2 as detectives for the Santa Barbara County Sheriff’s
3 Department?
4 A. We did.
5 Q. Did Ralph Chacon give you any information
6 about any alleged criminal activity at Neverland
7 Ranch?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And I take it, after you served them, you
10 went about your business; is that correct?
11 A. That’s correct.
12 Q. Actually, before you left either of those
13 people -- well, let’s do it one at a time.
14 Before you left Mr. Abdool on that date, did
15 you give him a business card?
16 A. Yes, we did.
17 Q. And did you tell him that if he wanted to
18 discuss any observation or knowledge regarding any
19 activity on the ranch, that he could call you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did you do the same thing with Mr.
22 Chacon?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And as of the time you left them on that
25 day, they did not give you any information
26 whatsoever about anything pertaining to the
27 investigation; is that correct?
28 A. That’s correct. 10548
Subject: May 16, 2005 
Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:15 am
