9679
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
5
6
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
13
14
15
16
17 REPORTER’S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
18
19 TUESDAY, MAY 10, 2005
20
21 8:30 A.M.
22
23 (PAGES 9679 THROUGH 9735)
24
25
26
27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 9679
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
9
10
11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A.
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067
14 -and-
15 SANGER & SWYSEN
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C
17 Santa Barbara, California 93101
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 9680
1 I N D E X
2
3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index. Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index.
6 Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index.
7
8
9 DEFENDANT’S
10 WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
11 MARCUS, Joseph 9682-SA 9713-A
12 (Contd.)
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 9681
1 Santa Maria, California
2 Tuesday, May 10, 2005
3 8:30 a.m.
4
5 THE COURT: Good morning, everyone.
6 Counsel?
7 MR. SANGER: Good morning.
8
9 JOSEPH MARCUS
10 Having been previously sworn, resumed the
11 stand and testified further as follows:
12
13 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
14
15 BY MR. SANGER:
16 Q. Okay. Mr. Marcus, when we left off
17 yesterday, we were talking about the trip to Dr.
18 Seamont’s office. Do you recall that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. All right. You went and picked the family
21 up and you stayed there while they were in the
22 dental office, right?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. All right. Now, at that time, was there a
25 film crew following the family into the dental
26 office?
27 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’ll object. Asked and
28 answered. 9682
1 THE COURT: Sustained.
2 MR. SANGER: Didn’t I ask about the shopping
3 trip and not this? Maybe I did. I apologize if I
4 did.
5 THE COURT: Now you’re testing my memory?
6 I’ll let you ask the question.
7 MR. SANGER: Okay. And I apologize, Your
8 Honor. Maybe I did ask it.
9 Q. But in any event, was there a film crew
10 following anybody into the dentist’s office?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And was there -- if I didn’t ask it, let me
13 ask this, so I cover both of them. Was there any
14 film crew following the shopping trip to Solvang?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And those were two separate occasions; is
17 that correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. All right. Now, you are familiar with the
20 gate logs; is that correct?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And I believe I asked you about this, but
23 just to be certain as well, when you -- are the gate
24 logs kept in the ordinary course of business?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. That’s something that you rely on on a
27 regular basis, you and the security staff and
28 others, on a regular basis to run the business at 9683
1 Neverland Ranch?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. All right. I’m going to ask you to look at
4 a couple of different entries.
5 Before I do that, let me just ask you if you
6 know off the top of your head what date the trip to
7 Dr. Seamont was.
8 A. I do not recall.
9 Q. And do you recall roughly when it was in
10 the -- the year, first of all, I think you said, was
11 2003, right?
12 A. It was.
13 Q. Do you recall roughly when it was in the
14 stay of the Arvizos? Was it towards the beginning?
15 Towards the end?
16 A. I honestly don’t recall.
17 MR SANGER: All right. Okay. With the
18 Court’s permission, I would like to approach the
19 witness with the gate logbook.
20 THE COURT: You may.
21 MR. SANGER: I’ll tell you what, let’s do
22 this, if it’s all right with the Court, why don’t I
23 just put them up on the screen. That might be
24 easier. If that’s all right.
25 And I’m going to refer to Exhibit 334. And
26 this is page MJ00171. And I’ll slide it up so we
27 can see the bottom there.
28 Q. First of all, this is for 2-24-03. Does 9684
1 that appear to be correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. Now, the trick is to look over your
4 shoulder and then turn around and talk in the
5 microphone, just as you did. That was perfect.
6 All right. Now, you notice that it says at
7 the bottom there, “Joe Marcus,” and it looks like it
8 was “Gray van.”
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What does that represent?
11 A. It represents that I left the property at
12 1759 and returned at 2005 in the gray van.
13 Q. All right. And right above it, it appears
14 that there’s a reference there that I think says,
15 “Vinnie,” comma, “Arvizos, 4, Pontiac.”
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. What does that tell us about that particular
18 transaction?
19 A. That Vinnie departed the property at 1634
20 and returned at 1855.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. With four passengers.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. I believe.
25 Q. So it looks like he left at 1634 and came
26 back -- he left at 1634 with four passengers and he
27 came back at 1855 hours. Looks like you left in a
28 gray van, 1759, came back at 2005, correct? 9685
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And then if we look up here at the Arvizos,
3 there’s a reference to Gavin, Star, Davellin and
4 Janet, correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And it appears that they stayed overnight;
7 is that right?
8 A. That’s correct.
9 Q. And then it looks like they all left at 1634
10 hours?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. That would be the same time as Vinnie?
13 A. That’s correct.
14 Q. And it looks like one of them, Davellin,
15 came back at 1855?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Is that the same time as anybody else you
18 see on the list there?
19 A. I believe they came back with Vinnie.
20 Q. And then it looks like the others, the two
21 boys and Janet, came back at 2005?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Now, does that refresh your recollection as
24 to when you took this trip to the dental office?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Does that appear to be the date that that
27 occurred?
28 A. That appears to be. 9686
1 Q. All right. In any event, looking at this,
2 it appears that you, in fact, picked up the mother
3 and the two children somewhere and brought them back
4 to the ranch, correct?
5 A. That’s correct.
6 Q. All right. Now, I’m going to take that off
7 and once again make an effort to keep the book in
8 order. Let me ask you about another entry in the
9 book.
10 And with the Court’s permission, this is
11 Exhibit 334 and it’s page MJ00154. We’ve had that
12 up before. May I put it up?
13 THE COURT: Yes.
14 MR. SANGER: Thank you.
15 Q. So we’ll just show at the bottom here, for
16 the record, for everybody’s reference, that is the
17 Bates stamp number, and I’m going to put this one up
18 here. And there’s a reference here that says,
19 “1752.” It appears to say, “The kids are not to
20 leave per Joe. ‘Kids’ meaning like Gavin, Star, et
21 cetera.”
22 Do you see that reference?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And that’s on 2-19-03; is that correct?
25 A. That’s correct.
26 Q. Now, you’ve been asked about this incident
27 both by the defense and by the prosecution, is that
28 correct, by police officers? 9687
1 A. I don’t --
2 Q. Let’s put it this way. Not this particular
3 log entry, but you were asked about whether or not
4 you had ever given instructions that the Arvizo
5 children were not to leave the ranch; is that
6 correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What was the reason that you recall for the
9 Arvizo children not to be leaving the ranch?
10 Before you look at that, I’m sorry, I should
11 have started the other way. I don’t want to
12 distract you with that yet. Go ahead.
13 A. The main reason on this particular situation
14 was that the children had been known to pull up to
15 the gate in vehicles, by themselves without an
16 adult, driving one of Mr. Jackson’s vehicles. So I
17 didn’t want the guards to allow them off property in
18 a vehicle. That was one situation.
19 There was also a situation where there was
20 a --
21 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’m going to object as to
22 foundation. Move to strike.
23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, I’d like to not
25 offer that for the truth of the matter, but offer it
26 for his state of mind as to why he gave this
27 instruction.
28 THE COURT: You can do that. But that’s not 9688
1 what you did either. So I’ll strike that answer and
2 you can go back and develop that foundation.
3 MR. SANGER: Let me do that.
4 Q. Okay. As of February the 19th, 2003, were
5 you aware -- were you aware of any incidents
6 involving the Arvizo children using vehicles in an
7 unauthorized fashion?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And what were you aware of?
10 A. That they had used the vehicles of Mr.
11 Jackson’s to drive around the property.
12 Q. All right. Did that cause you any concern
13 as the ranch manager?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And what was your concern?
16 A. Number one, their safety. Number two, the
17 safety of the employees and the property. And
18 number three, the vehicle itself.
19 Q. All right. And what was your frame of mind
20 as far as allowing the Arvizos to leave the property
21 on any vehicles, whether it be automobiles, vans or
22 even ATVs?
23 A. It was not to happen.
24 Q. Were the Arvizo children supervised by a
25 parent at all times during February and March of
26 2003?
27 A. No.
28 Q. Were there times when Janet Arvizo was not 9689
1 there?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, was there something else -- you started
4 to respond. Let me go back and ask you, was there
5 something else in your mind around this time with
6 regard to whether or not the Arvizo children should
7 be allowed to leave the ranch?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What was that?
10 A. There was a film documentary that was --
11 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’m going to object. No
12 foundation.
13 MR. SANGER: Not offered for the truth.
14 THE COURT: All right. I’ll overrule the
15 objection.
16 THE WITNESS: There was a film documentary
17 that was going to be happening on or off the
18 property, and I do not believe that that had been
19 decided where exactly it was going to happen.
20 Q. BY MR. SANGER: And who was involved in that
21 documentary?
22 A. I believe Hamid Moslehi.
23 Q. Did you know Mr. Moslehi?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How did you know him, or how long had you
26 known him?
27 A. For a few years.
28 Q. And you knew him to be an employee of -- or 9690
1 a contract employee of Mr. Jackson; is that correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. And did you see him on or around February
4 the 19th, 2003?
5 A. I believe so.
6 Q. Okay. And what was he doing there?
7 A. I believe he was coming to do the
8 documentary.
9 Q. And what was your understanding when he
10 first arrived as to where the documentary would be
11 occurring?
12 A. I believe it was undecided at that point.
13 Q. At some point was it determined that the
14 documentary would be done somewhere else?
15 A. I believe so.
16 Q. During that period of time, did you discuss
17 with anybody whether or not the children should
18 leave the ranch? During that particular -- on that
19 particular afternoon.
20 Was there a period of time when you were
21 trying to decide whether or not they should be
22 allowed to leave without their mother?
23 A. Yes, I needed, obviously, some guidance on
24 that.
25 Q. All right. At some point, did you receive
26 guidance?
27 A. I believe so.
28 Q. And did you authorize the children to leave 9691
1 with Mr. Moslehi?
2 A. I believe they did leave.
3 Q. All right. And now when you look at that
4 entry, 00154 of Exhibit 334, does that seem to
5 reflect an instruction that you gave that particular
6 afternoon at about 5:52?
7 A. That’s correct.
8 Q. Did that -- did you ever give any
9 instruction to anybody to hold any of the Arvizos
10 against their will?
11 A. Never.
12 MR. SANGER: I would like to, with the
13 Court’s permission, put up two exhibits. I’ll ask
14 at once to do both in succession. 308 and 309, if I
15 could. May I?
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 MR. SANGER: Thank you. Exhibit 308 has
18 already been received into evidence --
19 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: May I see that?
20 MR. SANGER: Yes.
21 Exhibit 308 is a one-page exhibit. I’ll put
22 it up so we can see the exhibit number there. And
23 then I’m going to pull it down, and see if we can do
24 a little bit of a wide angle. There we go.
25 Q. Okay. Up at the top, it says, “Neverland
26 Valley Ranch Security Clearance and Guest
27 Information.” Are you familiar with this kind of
28 document? 9692
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And in the course and scope of your duties
3 at the ranch, excuse me, is this the kind of
4 document that is kept in the ordinary course of
5 business?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And what is the purpose of this document?
8 A. Number one, to authorize access onto the
9 property. And number two, to advise the proper
10 people what the guests have access to.
11 Q. All right. Now, at this time, this appears
12 to be for an arrival date of 6-21-02; is that
13 correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And the arrival is expected sometime in the
16 afternoon, right?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Who were the people who were coming in this
19 particular group?
20 A. I believe Chris Tucker, Gavin, Star Arvizo,
21 Adrian, Kelly, Davellin, and Aubrey, I believe.
22 Q. Okay. Now, it said “Gavellin” there, but
23 you take that to -- it should have been “Davellin”;
24 is that right?
25 A. I believe so.
26 Q. All right. This particular group -- do you
27 recall, in June of 2002, if this is one of the times
28 that the Arvizos did, in fact, come with Chris 9693
1 Tucker?
2 A. I believe so.
3 Q. Okay. Now, at the bottom there it says,
4 “Special Instructions” -- or, “Special Instruction,”
5 I guess, “General Comment.” Do you see that
6 section?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what does this tell you? What is this
9 supposed to tell the staff that -- both yourself and
10 all the people that work for you there at the ranch,
11 what does this tell you all about --
12 A. Tells me that the guests have full access to
13 pretty much anything that they would like to enjoy
14 at the property.
15 Q. Do you know if Mr. Jackson was even on the
16 property at that time?
17 A. I don’t know.
18 Q. All right. Now, when it says, “Full
19 Access,” that’s what it says there, and then there’s
20 some boxes checked. They aren’t boxes, and they
21 aren’t checks for that matter. There’s some lines
22 with “Xs” on them, correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. And that outlines the different kinds of
25 activities, right?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And I see on there “quadrunners.” And I’m
28 pointing to it. You might take a quick look. Is 9694
1 that right?
2 A. That’s correct.
3 Q. That means this entire group, including the
4 Arvizo children, were authorized to take out the
5 quadrunners; is that correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Now, does that mean they could do anything
8 they wanted with them?
9 A. Unfortunately, within reason.
10 Q. All right. So they could use them, they had
11 full access to them, but they were supposed to use
12 them within reason?
13 A. Within reason.
14 Q. Okay. What do you mean by “within reason”?
15 A. Number one, they should wear helmets,
16 goggles, gloves. That was at times an issue to
17 enforce. Security would try to enforce that, of
18 course.
19 Q. They were supposed to use them safely?
20 A. Exactly.
21 Q. All right. And then I want to make sure I
22 go over the head of the court reporter here, so I
23 don’t shine this in her eyes.
24 There’s golf cars, jet skis. All of that’s
25 okay; is that right?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. So that was on 6-21-02?
28 A. Correct. 9695
1 Q. Now I’m going to take down 308, Exhibit 308.
2 Put it back in the book here. Okay. And I’m going
3 to put up 309. And again, I’ll just put that up for
4 everybody’s reference so we can see at the bottom
5 “309,” and show you the top.
6 This, again, appears to be the same type of
7 document; is that correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And this appears to be for 6-28; is that
10 correct?
11 A. That’s correct.
12 Q. If you were to look in the logs, could you
13 determine what year that was?
14 A. If I were to look in the logs, possibly.
15 Q. So for right now, it says, “6-28.” All
16 right. Do you know what year it was without looking
17 at the logs?
18 A. No.
19 Q. In any event, if we look farther down here,
20 it appears that -- well, I’m sorry, up at the top it
21 says, “Gavin, brother and sister,” correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. You took that to pertain to the Arvizos?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Okay. And then if we look down here - I’ll
26 do it this way - it looks like, “Quadrunners and” --
27 A. “Jet skis.”
28 Q. “Jet skis,” it says, “No.” 9696
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. So apparently the Arvizo children were not
3 authorized to use the quadrunners and the jet skis
4 on that visit, the 6-28 visit; is that correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 MR. SANGER: We could have the lights again,
7 if that’s all right, Your Honor.
8 Thank you.
9 Q. All right. Now, on February the 11th, early
10 morning of the 12th, do you recall Janet Arvizo
11 leaving the ranch with her children? In the early
12 morning hours of the 12th, actually. Do you recall
13 that?
14 A. What was the date?
15 Q. February 12th of 2003.
16 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’ll object. Foundation.
17 MR. SANGER: I’m asking if he recalls
18 personally right now.
19 THE COURT: All right. You may answer.
20 THE WITNESS: I do not recall.
21 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Okay. Do you recall an
22 instance where Jesus Salas took the family to Los
23 Angeles in the middle of the night?
24 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’ll object. Foundation.
25 MR. SANGER: Does he personally know about
26 it.
27 THE COURT: You may answer.
28 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9697
1 Q. BY MR. SANGER: And were you personally
2 contacted with regard to that trip?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who contacted you?
5 A. I believe it was either --
6 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’ll object as hearsay.
7 THE COURT: Overruled.
8 You may answer. The question was, “Who
9 contacted you?”
10 THE WITNESS: I believe it was Jesus.
11 Q. BY MR. SANGER: All right. Were you there
12 on the ranch that night, into the next day?
13 A. No.
14 MR. SANGER: What I’m going do, with the
15 Court’s permission, I’m going to ask to approach the
16 witness to show him some gate logs.
17 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’m going to object and
18 move to strike his testimony in this area. He has
19 no personal knowledge.
20 MR. SANGER: There’s no question.
21 THE COURT: You may approach. The objection
22 is overruled.
23 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Okay. I’m going to ask you
24 to take a moment and take a look at the gate logs.
25 And you’re welcome to look at whatever you want in
26 there that might help refresh your recollection of
27 whether you were on the property the night of
28 February 11th, onto the early morning hours of 9698
1 February the 12th.
2 A. Okay. I believe that’s a possibility. But
3 I didn’t spend the night there. That’s what I
4 thought you were asking.
5 Q. All right. So as you look -- so as you look
6 at the gate logs, does that help refresh your
7 recollection? Either it does or doesn’t. If it
8 doesn’t, that’s okay.
9 Does that help you refresh your recollection
10 as to whether or not you were there into the early
11 morning hours of the 12th?
12 A. Yes, I left at 1:15 a.m.
13 Q. All right. Now, at the time that you
14 were -- let me withdraw that.
15 Do you recall where you were when you were
16 contacted by Jesus Salas?
17 A. I believe I was home.
18 Q. So you think you were actually home by that
19 time?
20 And where do you live, generally? You don’t
21 have to give your address, but --
22 A. I live here in town.
23 Q. In Santa Maria?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Now, by reviewing the gate logs, the
26 records of the ranch, can you determine what kind of
27 a vehicle Mr. Salas used to transport this family on
28 that night? You might need to look forward on 9699
1 the -- to the next date.
2 A. I’m sorry, I don’t see it here.
3 Q. Okay. Okay. Do you know off the top of
4 your head, or do you --
5 A. I believe it was a limo.
6 Q. All right. In any event, whatever kind of a
7 vehicle it was, do you remember -- do you have a
8 Rolls Royce there on the property?
9 A. Yes. We have a few Rolls Royces.
10 Q. Okay. Whatever kind of a vehicle it was,
11 was it your understanding that it was a vehicle that
12 belonged to Neverland Ranch?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And did Mr. Salas take that, with your
15 permission?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. And he, I take it, returned with it
18 the next day; is that right?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. All right. All right. We’re getting close
21 to the end here, which is a lot of good news for you
22 and everybody else.
23 Let me ask about some of the employees. You
24 had mentioned that you were the ranch manager and
25 therefore in charge of the various departments
26 through the chain of command through the department
27 heads, correct?
28 A. Correct. 9700
1 Q. We have had some testimony from Brian
2 Barron, and you may have mentioned already, you know
3 Brian Barron was a police officer; is that correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Were there other people who were former
6 police officers or -- well, let’s start with police
7 officers.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you recall during the time you were
10 there how many people had actual peace officer/law
11 enforcement experience?
12 A. Probably five to ten.
13 Q. Can you give us the names and associations
14 of some of them, as best you can remember?
15 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’m going to object,
16 relevancy, as to this applicable time frame.
17 MR. SANGER: I can --
18 THE COURT: Just a moment.
19 MR. SANGER: I’m sorry.
20 THE COURT: Objection is overruled.
21 MR. SANGER: Very well.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes. There was Retired Herman
23 Stubblefield, who I believe worked for Santa Barbara
24 County Sheriffs. James Wade, who I believe worked
25 for Santa Barbara County Sheriffs. There was a
26 gentleman from Santa Maria Police Department, Rudy
27 Salinas, I believe. He was also retired Santa Maria
28 P.D. There was a gentleman from Grover -- Kelly 9701
1 Cook from Grover -- Grover Beach, I believe. And
2 that’s really all that comes to mind at the moment.
3 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Was there a retired military
4 police officer?
5 A. We currently still employ a gentleman that
6 was a military police.
7 Q. Okay. Who is that?
8 A. Curtis Gordon.
9 Q. Okay. Where was Mr. Gordon at the time of
10 the search on November 18th, 2003?
11 A. He was at the front gate.
12 Q. So he would have been the gentleman wearing
13 a security uniform at the front gate?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And he would have been the gentleman who was
16 greeted by, or greeted, such as it was, the
17 sheriff’s officers coming through the gate with
18 their search warrants?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. Now, all of these people you mentioned, I
21 don’t want to go through each one unnecessarily, but
22 did they -- did each of the people you mentioned
23 work there over a period of time? I mean, they
24 weren’t there for a day or two.
25 A. Correct.
26 Q. How long did -- let’s take the longest one.
27 How long did the longest one work there, the one who
28 worked there the longest? 9702
1 A. Probably Curtis Gordon. He’s still employed
2 with us.
3 Q. About how many years has he been there?
4 A. Eight, ten years. I’m not exactly sure.
5 Q. Okay. Now, in addition to police officers,
6 did you also have people who worked at the ranch who
7 were fire -- fire personnel from fire departments?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And can you give us an idea of roughly how
10 many over the period of time you worked there?
11 A. At least 20.
12 Q. Okay. Can you give us the names and
13 affiliations, if you can remember some of them?
14 A. Currently we have two officers that work at
15 Taft City Fire. One that works at Grover Beach.
16 One that’s full time at Lompoc Fire Department. And
17 there was many more that have left the property over
18 the years and moved on to bigger and better things.
19 Q. All right. So when you say “bigger and
20 better things,” you didn’t really mean that with Mr.
21 Jackson sitting here, did you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay. But as far as law enforcement or fire
24 careers, sometimes this is a jumping-off point; is
25 that right?
26 A. It’s a stepping stone for them, yes.
27 Q. And sometimes this is a retirement job?
28 A. Exactly. 9703
1 Q. All right. Now, with regard to the police
2 officers, other than Brian Barron, were there any
3 others who were moonlighting currently, they were
4 police officers who are currently moonlighting? Let
5 me withdraw that phrase, “currently.”
6 Were there other people other than Brian
7 Barron who, during this period of time, were
8 concurrently working as peace officers actively and
9 moonlighting at the ranch?
10 A. Not to my knowledge.
11 Q. The others were retired police officers,
12 correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And with regard to the fire department
15 people, apparently there were a number of people
16 concurrently working for fire departments and
17 working at the ranch, correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Was it your understanding that all of these
20 people understood the need to abide by the law?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. All right. And if they observed anything
23 illegal or improper, was it their duty to report it
24 to the staff, to their supervisors?
25 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; leading.
26 THE COURT: Overruled.
27 You may answer.
28 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9704
1 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Did you have, as the
2 owner -- as the ranch manager, did you have an
3 expectation that former police officers, former and
4 current firefighters would also report any unlawful
5 activities to the civilian authorities?
6 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; leading.
7 THE COURT: Sustained.
8 Q. BY MR. SANGER: The people that you have
9 just mentioned, was there any secret made of their
10 backgrounds?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Based on your discussions with Mr. Jackson,
13 was Mr. Jackson aware that some or all of these
14 people were either prior or current employees of
15 police or fire departments?
16 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; hearsay.
17 THE COURT: Sustained.
18 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Was there any effort made to
19 keep any of this secret from Mr. Jackson?
20 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Same objection.
21 THE COURT: Sustained.
22 MR. SANGER: All right.
23 Q. Now, do you recall the Bashir documentary?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The Bashir television program?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Did you see it when it was aired originally
28 in February of 2003? 9705
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you hear about it --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- around that time?
5 Did it create a certain amount of buzz
6 around the ranch?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, you’ve been there during this entire
9 period of time. Are there times when there is more
10 media attention to Mr. Jackson at the ranch than
11 other times?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you recall back in ‘93, was there a lot
14 of media attention?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were there vehicles on Figueroa Mountain
17 Road by the gate on a regular basis?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did that subside after ‘93 for a while?
20 A. For a while, yes.
21 Q. Now, you do tend to have people up at the
22 gate sort of on a regular basis; is that right?
23 A. That’s correct.
24 Q. What kind of people tend to congregate up
25 around the gate?
26 A. All different types of people, from all
27 different walks of life.
28 Q. People from other countries? 9706
1 A. Other countries, here in this country.
2 Q. What’s their interest in Mr. Jackson, would
3 you tell us that? Are they fans? Are they --
4 A. Some are fans, some just want to come and
5 see where Neverland is.
6 Q. All right. Now, in early 2003, did there --
7 was there an increase in the media attention at the
8 ranch?
9 A. I don’t recall.
10 Q. Do you recall at some point there were media
11 vans and whatnot coming to the front gate?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. When the Arvizos came to the ranch, was
14 there any particular concern with regard to the
15 Arvizos and the media?
16 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. Foundation;
17 hearsay.
18 THE COURT: Overruled.
19 You may answer.
20 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the question?
21 THE COURT: I’ll have it read back.
22 (Record read.)
23 THE WITNESS: “Concern,” I don’t -- I don’t
24 really understand the question.
25 MR. SANGER: Okay.
26 Q. Were you made aware that the media had
27 attempted to have contact with the Arvizos?
28 A. Not personally. 9707
1 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; leading.
2 MR. SANGER: Not personally --
3 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. Leading;
4 hearsay.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 THE WITNESS: Not personally.
7 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Were you advised that the
8 media was attempting to contact the Arvizos? In
9 general. I’m not talking about at the ranch gate,
10 but just in general.
11 A. Yes, in general.
12 Q. What was your understanding of why the media
13 was interested in the Arvizos?
14 A. Due to the documentary, the Bashir
15 documentary.
16 Q. Were you aware at some time, and I’m asking
17 now for your state of mind, that there was a
18 discussion regarding the Arvizos taking a trip to
19 Brazil?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Based on your personal contact with the
22 Arvizos, did the Arvizos ever voice any objection to
23 going to Brazil?
24 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; hearsay.
25 THE COURT: Foundation; sustained.
26 MR. SANGER: Okay.
27 Q. Did you have occasion to talk to the Arvizos
28 or be in the Arvizos’ presence when the Brazil issue 9708
1 arose?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did the Arvizos at that time voice any
4 objection to going to Brazil?
5 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’ll object. Vague as to
6 which Arvizo. Hearsay.
7 THE COURT: Sustained as to --
8 MR. SANGER: As to which one?
9 THE COURT: -- which one.
10 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Let’s take the children.
11 Did you have a discussion with the children, or did
12 they have a discussion, or was this discussed in
13 your presence?
14 A. There was no objection at that point that I
15 know of.
16 Q. Okay. What about Janet, did you ever have a
17 discussion or overhear a discussion where Janet was
18 involved in some discussion, to use that word again,
19 about going to Brazil?
20 A. Only that they needed some assistance in
21 finding a spot to take a passport picture.
22 Q. Did Janet Arvizo discuss that in your
23 presence?
24 A. It was in the presence of Vinnie and Janet,
25 yes.
26 Q. Okay. And did she -- was she objecting to
27 having a passport picture?
28 A. No. 9709
1 Q. Was she -- what was she doing? What was she
2 saying?
3 A. They were asking for instructions on where
4 they could go to get their passport picture taken.
5 Q. And was Janet asking for those instructions
6 as well?
7 A. I don’t know if she asked personally, but
8 she was standing right next to Vinnie.
9 Q. And what was her demeanor at that point?
10 A. They were getting ready to get in the car to
11 head to Santa Maria to get a picture taken.
12 Q. All right. All right. And then one last
13 area here, for now.
14 Are you familiar with the kinds of fan mail
15 that Mr. Jackson gets?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And where is the fan mail delivered?
18 A. Some is delivered to the property.
19 Q. Okay. I’m sorry. Of the fan mail
20 delivered -- I take it you haven’t seen his fan mail
21 that goes elsewhere; is that right?
22 A. Exactly.
23 Q. So the fan mail that’s delivered to
24 Neverland Ranch is what I’m talking about --
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. -- where is that ultimately delivered?
27 A. It’s delivered to the Los Olivos post office
28 and then delivered to the property. 9710
1 Q. When it gets to the property, where does it
2 go?
3 A. Sometimes it goes to Los Angeles, and
4 sometimes some of the nicer stuff we might keep at
5 the property.
6 Q. All right. Now, when you say “nicer
7 stuff” -- before we get to the distinction, what
8 volume of fan mail comes to the Los Olivos ranch?
9 A. Three boxes probably every other week.
10 Q. All right. And sometimes you’ll get big
11 packages; is that right?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Sometimes people will send artwork?
14 A. Artwork. Books. Clothing. Ties. Coffee
15 mugs. Gifts. Just lots -- lots of gifts.
16 Q. How about letters?
17 A. Letters. Lots of letters.
18 Q. Cards?
19 A. Cards, yes.
20 Q. Whose job is it to go through and screen
21 that, if anybody?
22 A. We don’t really have somebody doing that at
23 this point.
24 Q. In the past have you had somebody screen it
25 or does it just all go to Mr. Jackson, and say,
26 “Here. Read your mail”?
27 A. No.
28 Q. Does it end up sometimes in the 9711
1 administration building?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. And from there, you said
4 something about “the nicer stuff.” So going back to
5 that answer, how do you make the decision as to what
6 ought to go to Mr. Jackson himself to look at?
7 A. Memorabilia. Just some of the nicer --
8 nicer items that I think that he might be interested
9 in seeing what the fans have sent for him.
10 Q. Okay. And you mentioned there might be
11 paintings?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Books?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When you deliver this to Mr. Jackson, does
16 he tend to keep it or throw it away, or what does he
17 do with the stuff?
18 A. You would have to ask Mr. Jackson.
19 Q. Okay. Well, looking at his house -- you’ve
20 been inside his house and his room; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you’re here under oath and we’re not
23 here to, you know, either please or insult Mr.
24 Jackson one way or the other. Just tell it the way
25 it is. Does Mr. Jackson tend to keep a lot of stuff
26 all over the place?
27 A. Lots of stuff.
28 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; leading. 9712
1 THE COURT: Sustained.
2 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Does Mr. Jackson, based on
3 your observation of his premises, does he tend to
4 keep stuff that’s sent to him by fans or throw it
5 all away?
6 A. I believe he keeps everything.
7 MR. SANGER: All right. I have no further
8 questions at this time.
9 THE WITNESS: Do you want this back?
10 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Do you have the logbook up
11 there, Mr. Marcus?
12 If I may approach to retrieve that, Your
13 Honor.
14 THE COURT: You may.
15 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Thank you.
16
17 CROSS-EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS:
19 Q. All right. Good morning, Mr. Marcus.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. You have worked at Neverland since 1988 --
22 A. That’s correct.
23 Q. -- correct?
24 You’ve worked there the entire time that Mr.
25 Jackson has owned that property, true?
26 A. Correct.
27 Q. Is there anybody at Neverland Ranch who has
28 worked there as long as you have? 9713
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Who would that be?
3 A. There’s multiple employees that have been
4 there longer.
5 Q. All right. And you began in the maintenance
6 department?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. You’ve been the property manager three
9 years?
10 A. That’s correct.
11 Q. You have been a security officer at
12 Neverland Ranch?
13 A. That’s correct.
14 Q. Tell me what period of time that was.
15 A. I believe it was from ‘92, ‘93, through ‘96,
16 possibly.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. Maybe a little bit -- I might be off on the
19 dates.
20 Q. When you were a security officer there, were
21 you armed?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And at present, as a property manager, you
24 supervise everybody at Neverland; is that correct?
25 A. Correct.
26 Q. And you supervise the supervisors, true?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. How often do you interact with your boss, 9714
1 Mr. Jackson, when he’s on the property, let’s say?
2 A. Daily.
3 Q. Daily? And would you meet with him more
4 than once a day?
5 A. No. Might speak with him.
6 Q. Okay. Do you ever have meetings with Mr.
7 Jackson?
8 A. Once in a while, yes.
9 Q. Does he ever sit down with you and tell you
10 that he wants something changed at Neverland?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And if he wants something changed at
13 Neverland, does he typically talk to you or will he
14 talk to other employees, more of a direct route?
15 A. Sometimes he’ll use the direct route.
16 Q. Okay. So there’s not always a chain of
17 command at Neverland, is that fair to say, in terms
18 of Mr. Jackson’s interaction with his employees?
19 A. No, he’ll sometimes go directly to the
20 source if something needs to be done at that point.
21 Or if I’m not available.
22 Q. And I believe your testimony is nobody
23 outranks you at Neverland, true?
24 A. I didn’t say that.
25 Q. I mean other than Mr. Jackson. Is there
26 anybody above you at Neverland, other than your
27 boss, Mr. Jackson?
28 A. No. 9715
1 Q. Okay. So you answer only to Mr. Jackson in
2 terms of your job at Neverland Ranch?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And would it be fair to say that your job is
5 to make sure Mr. Jackson is happy?
6 A. “Happy”?
7 Q. Pleased. Pleased with everything at
8 Neverland. Isn’t that your job?
9 MR. SANGER: I’m going to object. That’s
10 argumentative.
11 THE COURT: Overruled.
12 You may answer.
13 THE WITNESS: That’s fair to say.
14 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Okay. In fact, that’s
15 everybody’s job at Neverland, is to make sure Mr.
16 Jackson -- everything that’s done at Neverland is
17 exactly the way Mr. Jackson wants it, true?
18 A. It’s mainly for him and his guests, correct.
19 Q. Yes. But he’s the one who decides what
20 guests will be on the property?
21 MR. SANGER: Objection. That’s
22 argumentative.
23 THE COURT: Overruled.
24 You may answer.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
26 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: And he decides what
27 people will not be allowed on that property, true?
28 A. Correct. 9716
1 Q. Doesn’t he sometimes make specific
2 directives to the security staff, “Do not let this
3 person on the property”?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And when he allows a guest on the property,
6 sometimes he will take privileges away from those
7 guests, true?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And he personally gets involved in deciding
10 what privileges individual guests will enjoy at
11 Neverland?
12 MR. SANGER: I’m going to object. That’s
13 vague as to time and subject matter.
14 THE COURT: Overruled.
15 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: You can answer.
16 A. Repeat the question.
17 Q. My question was that he gets personally
18 involved in deciding what privileges individuals
19 will have at Neverland.
20 A. I don’t know that to be true, but --
21 Q. Didn’t we just look at a log that said that
22 Mr. Jackson allows the Arvizos and Chris Tucker, et
23 cetera, to enjoy all the privileges at Neverland?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So he does at times get personally involved
26 in deciding whether they get to go horseback riding
27 or not, true?
28 A. Correct. 9717
1 Q. Would it be fair to say that you probably
2 know more about Neverland Ranch than anybody who
3 works there, being the manager that you are and
4 having your experience?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. Now, you know about the
7 telephone system there, right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And you know that it requires a three-button
10 code to get out, to get an outside line, right?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And if you don’t know that three-button
13 code, you can’t get an outside line, can you?
14 A. That’s not correct.
15 Q. Okay. Explain that to me. Why can’t --
16 how can you get out -- let’s say you’re at a phone,
17 and you previously testified that it requires a
18 three-button code to get an outside line, true?
19 A. Not all phones require a three-button, but
20 some phones do.
21 Q. Tell me which phones require the
22 three-button code.
23 A. Mainly the outbuildings, the theater, the
24 zoo area, the employees’ areas. A few of the phones
25 in the main house, but not all of them. Some of the
26 phones are direct dial where you would pick them up.
27 And it’s any code. There’s no set code. It’s any
28 three digits. It could be 000. It could be 245. 9718
1 It’s not a set code.
2 Q. But if you don’t know there’s a code, you
3 can’t get out, true?
4 MR. SANGER: Objection; vague.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 You may answer.
7 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: If you just pick up the
8 phone and dial a number, you won’t get out?
9 A. That is correct.
10 MR. SANGER: Objection. Vague as to which
11 phones.
12 THE COURT: Sustained.
13 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: All right. Tell me
14 specifically which phones in the house do not
15 require a three-button code, specifically in the
16 main house.
17 A. In the living room of the main house, as
18 well as -- I believe that -- the library also. I
19 think those are the only two that are direct dial.
20 Q. Do you know if the library requires a
21 three-button code, or not?
22 A. I do not recall at the moment. I believe
23 it’s just the living room.
24 Q. What about Mr. Jackson’s personal phone in
25 his room?
26 A. I honestly don’t recall if it is -- I
27 believe it’s direct dial.
28 Q. Are you aware that he has a private line in 9719
1 his bathroom?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And the guest cottages. You neglected to
4 mention the guest cottages. They require a
5 three-button code out, don’t they?
6 MR. SANGER: Objection. That’s
7 argumentative.
8 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’ll rephrase.
9 Q. Did you neglect to mention the guesthouses
10 when you were telling us about phones that require a
11 three-button code to get out?
12 MR. SANGER: Objection; argumentative.
13 THE COURT: Overruled.
14 You may answer.
15 THE WITNESS: I actually didn’t go through
16 the whole list of phones. There’s multiple areas
17 with phones, as well as the train depot, the
18 theater, the guest units.
19 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I move to strike the
20 answer as nonresponsive.
21 THE COURT: Sustained. But I think what he’s
22 saying is that he wasn’t allowed to finish the
23 question where he was giving the list. And I think
24 that’s correct.
25 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: All right.
26 Q. So you would include the guest cottages as
27 being among the phones that require a three-button
28 code to get out, true? Yes? 9720
1 MR. SANGER: I’m going to object. That’s
2 confusing the way it’s phrased. It’s vague and
3 ambiguous.
4 THE COURT: Overruled.
5 You may answer.
6 THE WITNESS: I believe it’s direct dial.
7 But I could be wrong at this moment. But I believe
8 it’s pick up and go.
9 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: You believe so?
10 A. I believe so.
11 Q. A moment ago did you say that the
12 guesthouses were included in three-button dial-out
13 code?
14 MR. SANGER: Objection, misstates the
15 evidence and argumentative.
16 THE COURT: I think I’ll allow the question.
17 I think the District Attorney is inquiring if he
18 said that.
19 Go ahead.
20 THE WITNESS: I believe that they are direct
21 dial.
22 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: They do not require a
23 three-button code to get out, the guest cottages; is
24 that your testimony?
25 A. At this moment I don’t recall.
26 Q. All right. Now, you testified that Mr.
27 Jackson made a number of improvements to Neverland.
28 He added the amusement park while you were there? 9721
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The water fort? Yes?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Teepees, the trains? Yes?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Video arcade?
7 A. Yes. Actually, the video arcade was already
8 there.
9 Q. But he put in the video games?
10 A. There were some video games there before,
11 when he first purchased the property.
12 Q. But basically the improvements that Mr.
13 Jackson added were all attractions for children, is
14 that correct, in general?
15 MR. SANGER: Objection. As phrased, it’s
16 compound. All, or in general?
17 THE COURT: Sustained.
18 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: All right. I’ll strike
19 “all” in that question.
20 Q. In general --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- these improvements are for children,
23 designed to attract -- attractions for children,
24 correct?
25 A. Correct.
26 Q. And you’ve seen children when they arrive at
27 Neverland?
28 A. Correct. 9722
1 Q. They go crazy when they see all this, don’t
2 they?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I mean, they love it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Never seen anything like it, have they?
7 A. Some children have not.
8 Q. And there’s quads. Tell us what a quad is.
9 A. It’s a four-wheel, all-terrain vehicle.
10 Q. How fast will it go?
11 A. One or two of them will go in the excess of
12 70 miles an hour.
13 Q. They can be pretty dangerous, can’t they?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So generally, would it be fair to say that
16 quads are not allowed to be sent out with young boys
17 without any supervision? I mean, would you put an
18 11-year-old boy on a quad and say, “Go have a great
19 time,” that goes 70 miles an hour?
20 A. I didn’t say all of them go 70 miles an
21 hour. I said two of them do.
22 Q. Let’s back up. How fast do the slower quads
23 go?
24 A. We’re talking about a 50cc motor. They’re
25 very small. Not very fast. Maybe 25, 30 miles an
26 hour, tops.
27 Q. All right. And they can be dangerous?
28 A. Yes. 9723
1 Q. An 11-year-old boy could get hurt on such a
2 vehicle, couldn’t he?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And generally, you would not, for safety
5 reasons, send an 11-year-old boy out to ride one of
6 these quads even if they just go 30 miles an hour
7 without supervision, true?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Or a 13-year-old, without any adult
10 supervision, wouldn’t be allowed to ride the quads,
11 right?
12 A. No, that’s not true.
13 Q. Same thing with the jet skis. They can be
14 dangerous, can’t they?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. A child could drown using jet skis?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And typically you require some supervision
19 to send a kid out on the water with the jet skis,
20 true?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You mentioned a zoo. And I think you talked
23 a little bit about the animals. You mentioned that
24 they’re all well cared for.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Have you ever seen Mr. Jackson throw stones
27 at the lion?
28 A. No. 9724
1 Q. Tell me about the lion cage. What’s it look
2 like?
3 A. It’s a cage with a few toys in it for the
4 lions. Some logs. I mean, what exactly do you
5 want?
6 Q. What separates the lion from the people who
7 are looking at the lion?
8 A. Wires.
9 Q. Okay. What do they look like?
10 A. Did you want me to draw you a picture?
11 Q. No, I’m just curious. If you can describe
12 it.
13 A. Like a cage. Like --
14 Q. Is it like a bar? Bar or chicken wire, or
15 what?
16 A. No, it’s not chicken wire. It’s -- it’s
17 eighth-inch, I believe, wire that you would see at a
18 normal zoo to --
19 Q. Okay. Is it wire or bars?
20 A. It’s wire.
21 Q. Okay. And how is the wire configured, in
22 terms of is it configured in squares, in diamonds,
23 in rectangles?
24 A. Squares.
25 Q. How big are the squares?
26 A. I don’t know.
27 Q. Can you estimate?
28 A. I believe you probably couldn’t get two 9725
1 fingers through --
2 Q. All right.
3 A. -- the cage.
4 Q. All right. Now, have you ever seen any of
5 the other animals abused in any way?
6 A. I’ve never seen any of the animals abused.
7 MR. SANGER: I’ll withdraw my -- the
8 beginning of my objection.
9 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: All right. So when
10 children come to Neverland, within the bounds of
11 safety, they get to do whatever they want; isn’t
12 that fair to say?
13 A. That is fair to say.
14 Q. They’re treated like royalty almost?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And kids being kids, getting into mischief
17 is kind of part of the program, isn’t it?
18 MR. SANGER: Objection. Vague; calls for
19 speculation.
20 THE COURT: Overruled.
21 You may answer. Do you understand the
22 question?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Would you agree with
25 that statement?
26 THE COURT: Let him answer it.
27 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’m sorry.
28 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9726
1 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: And in your assessment
2 of the Arvizo children, you described them as,
3 quote, “a little destructive”?
4 A. That’s correct.
5 Q. Okay. And you’ve seen other children there
6 be a little destructive as well?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. It’s common, isn’t it?
9 A. I don’t know if it’s common, but it does
10 happen.
11 Q. Now, during your 17 years at Neverland, you
12 had a firsthand opportunity to see a number of young
13 boys visit Neverland; is that true?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Have you had a chance to see a number
16 of these young boys who spent a lot of time with Mr.
17 Jackson?
18 A. Repeat the question, please.
19 Q. Have you had an opportunity to see a number
20 of these young boys that you just mentioned spend a
21 considerable amount of time with Mr. Jackson?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Mr. Jackson tends to form special bonds with
24 these -- some of these young boys, true?
25 MR. SANGER: I’m going to object. Lack of
26 foundation.
27 THE COURT: Overruled.
28 You may answer. 9727
1 THE WITNESS: Not just boys, but yes, I have
2 seen him have bonds with children.
3 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Okay. And one of the
4 young boys that Mr. Jackson had a special bond with
5 was Frank Cascio. While you were there, did you see
6 that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And Frank is now an adult. He’s about --
9 you said, I think, he’s in his twenties now?
10 A. I believe so.
11 Q. And when you were there in 2003, working,
12 you mentioned -- I believe you mentioned that Frank
13 was there during that time?
14 A. I believe he was.
15 Q. Okay. And in fact, he stayed there for
16 several months in early 2003, didn’t he?
17 A. I don’t know if he was there several months.
18 He was in and out, yes.
19 Q. But he was on the ranch for over a month?
20 A. That’s probably fair to say.
21 Q. And he was working for Mr. Jackson at that
22 time, doing something for him, wasn’t he?
23 MR. SANGER: Objection. Compound; vague;
24 and no foundation.
25 THE COURT: Sustained on compound.
26 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: He was working for Mr.
27 Jackson at that time, wasn’t he?
28 A. I have no knowledge of that. 9728
1 Q. Well, he had an office at Neverland, didn’t
2 he?
3 A. He had a space, yes.
4 Q. He had a desk?
5 A. I believe he did have a desk.
6 Q. He was working at that desk?
7 A. I don’t honestly know what he was doing.
8 Q. And this was at the same time that the
9 Arvizos were there, true?
10 A. True.
11 Q. And what he was doing had something to do
12 with the Arvizos, didn’t it?
13 MR. SANGER: Objection; foundation.
14 THE COURT: Overruled.
15 You may answer.
16 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge.
17 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Well, he had a friend
18 named Vinnie there, didn’t he?
19 A. I believe so.
20 Q. Do you know what Vinnie’s last name is?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And Vinnie stayed there for about the same
23 amount of time during that period as Frank did,
24 true? Over a month.
25 A. Not to my recollection.
26 Q. Okay. What is your recollection about
27 Vinnie, as far as the amount of time he spent at
28 Neverland? 9729
1 A. I recall him coming and going a lot.
2 Q. And when Vinnie would come and go, he would
3 come and go with the Arvizos, wouldn’t he?
4 A. Sometimes. Not always.
5 Q. But often?
6 A. Not always.
7 Q. And you saw Frank with the Arvizos at times,
8 didn’t you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You mentioned a time when Vinnie was
11 standing there and you witnessed a conversation with
12 Janet, something to do about getting pictures --
13 A. That’s correct.
14 Q. -- for the passports?
15 And it was Vinnie that wanted to -- was
16 concerned about getting these pictures for
17 passports, wasn’t it?
18 A. Vinnie and Janet were standing there asking
19 me for directions to a spot that they could get a
20 picture taken.
21 Q. Do you know a man named Marc Schaffel?
22 A. I’ve met him.
23 Q. Who is Marc Schaffel?
24 A. He was a guest on the property.
25 Q. A guest of Mr. Jackson’s?
26 A. Yes.
27 MR. SANGER: I’m going to object. This is
28 beyond the scope of direct. 9730
1 THE COURT: Sustained.
2 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Have you seen Mr.
3 Jackson form a special bond or special friendship
4 with Aldo Cascio?
5 MR. SANGER: Beyond the scope of direct.
6 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: He’s asked him about
7 his -- any improprieties.
8 MR. SANGER: Object to a speaking response.
9 THE COURT: I’ve looked to him to speak.
10 I’ll overrule the objection. Go ahead.
11 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Did you see Mr.
12 Jackson, observe it, form a special bond with Aldo
13 Cascio?
14 A. They were friends, yes.
15 Q. What about Brett Barnes?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Jason Francia, did you ever see him spend
18 time with Jason Francia?
19 A. No.
20 Q. What about Wade Robson?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Jordie Chandler?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Macaulay Culkin?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Gavin Arvizo?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Did you mention a Shane Brando? 9731
1 A. I didn’t mention him.
2 Q. What about Shane Brando?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Little Michael?
5 MR. SANGER: Objection, Your Honor. Beyond
6 the scope of direct and the Court’s ruling.
7 THE COURT: Overruled.
8 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Little Michael?
9 A. Do you have a full name?
10 Q. Omar Bhatti?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. SANGER: Renew my objection. Motion to
13 strike.
14 THE COURT: Overruled.
15 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Mr. Jackson is very
16 security conscious, isn’t he?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Are calls monitored at Neverland?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Doesn’t Mr. Jackson have a phone in his
21 private quarters where he can monitor phone calls?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So you don’t really know if Mr. Jackson
24 monitors phone calls?
25 A. No.
26 Q. Mr. Marcus, doesn’t it say in the policy and
27 procedures manual for Neverland Valley Ranch that
28 employees acknowledge that their calls from 9732
1 Neverland Ranch can be monitored?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And your testimony is that those calls are
4 not monitored?
5 A. Well, there’s only two phones that you can
6 actually monitor from. One is in my office. And
7 one is at the house. And I don’t monitor them. And
8 to my knowledge, he doesn’t monitor them.
9 Q. But you don’t know whether Mr. Jackson
10 monitors phone calls, do you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And didn’t that policy go into effect when
13 Violet Silva complained to you about Mr. Jackson
14 listening to her phone calls?
15 MR. SANGER: Objection; calls for hearsay.
16 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Offered as impeachment.
17 THE COURT: Sustained.
18 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Did anybody at
19 Neverland Ranch complain to you that their calls
20 were being monitored by Mr. Jackson?
21 MR. SANGER: Objection; calls for hearsay.
22 THE COURT: You may answer.
23 THE WITNESS: Nobody told me specifically
24 that Mr. Jackson had been monitoring a call. But it
25 was brought to my attention that somebody had picked
26 up on a line and listened in on a phone call. But
27 it was never said that it was Michael Jackson.
28 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Well, his is the only 9733
1 phone that can do that other than yours, right?
2 MR. SANGER: Objection; argumentative.
3 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’ll strike that.
4 THE COURT: Sustained.
5 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: All right. So no
6 unauthorized people are allowed on the ranch.
7 You’ve said that, true?
8 A. That’s correct.
9 Q. And in order to drive into Neverland Valley
10 Ranch, someone has to open the gate, right?
11 A. That’s correct.
12 Q. And in order to drive out of Neverland
13 Ranch, a security guard has to manually push
14 something that opens a gate, true?
15 A. That is true.
16 Q. And the policy at Neverland is not to let
17 golf carts off the property, correct?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Same thing for quads, true?
20 A. There was a gray area, because security will
21 sometimes use a quad to go outside the front gate.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. But normally --
24 Q. Guests are not allowed to take quads out?
25 A. That is correct.
26 THE COURT: All right. Let’s take our break.
27 (Recess taken.)
28 --o0o-- 9734
1 REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE
2
3
4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE )
5 OF CALIFORNIA, )
6 Plaintiff, )
7 -vs- ) No. 1133603
8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
9 Defendant. )
10
11
12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR,
13 CSR #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby
14 certify:
15 That the foregoing pages 9682 through 9734
16 contain a true and correct transcript of the
17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled
18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at
19 said proceedings on May 10, 2005, and thereafter
20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided
21 transcription under my direction.
22 DATED: Santa Maria, California,
23 May 10, 2005.
24
25
26
27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 9735
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
5
6
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF. )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
13
14
15
16
17 REPORTER’S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
18
19 TUESDAY, MAY 10, 2005
20
21 8:30 A.M.
22
23 (PAGES 9736 THROUGH 9803)
24
25
26
27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 9736
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
9
10
11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A.
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067
14 -and-
15 SANGER & SWYSEN
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C
17 Santa Barbara, California 93101
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 9737
1 I N D E X
2
3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index. Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index.
6 Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index.
7
8
9 DEFENDANT’S
10 WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
11 MARCUS, Joseph 9763-SA 9797-A
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 9738
1 THE COURT: Go ahead, Counsel.
2 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Thank you, Your Honor.
3 Q. All right. Where we left off, I believe you
4 were telling us that the quads are generally --
5 THE BAILIFF: Turn your microphone on,
6 please.
7 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: The quads were
8 generally not allowed off the property when guests
9 were driving them; is that correct?
10 A. True.
11 Q. Now, you have been -- when you were a
12 security guard for Mr. Jackson, do you know if he
13 considered you one of his best security guards?
14 MR. SANGER: I would object. That calls for
15 speculation, without foundation.
16 THE COURT: The answer is obvious. All
17 right. Sustained.
18 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Did Mr. Jackson place
19 any special trust in you when you were a security
20 guard?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And one of the things that he did that
23 involved trust was that while he was on tour in ‘93,
24 he had you personally patrol the hallway to his
25 bedroom to make sure no one entered it; isn’t that
26 true?
27 A. I don’t recall that.
28 Q. You don’t remember that? 9739
1 A. Personally patrol inside --
2 Q. Inside the main house to make sure no one
3 went in his bedroom when he was not there.
4 A. I don’t recall that.
5 Q. When the ‘93 case was under investigation,
6 additional security was brought in to Neverland
7 Ranch. Are you aware of that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And they were known as “the OSS”; is that
10 correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were you the last security guard of the
13 previous staff of security, not including the OSS,
14 that turned his firearm over to -- or actually
15 stopped being armed?
16 MR. SANGER: I’m going to object to that
17 question as unintelligible.
18 THE COURT: Sustained.
19 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I can rephrase it.
20 Q. Were you the last armed security guard on
21 Mr. Jackson’s normal staff of security?
22 A. I don’t know if I was the last. I don’t
23 know.
24 Q. Well, didn’t you refuse to turn your gun
25 over at one time when you were asked to turn it over
26 to the head of security?
27 MR. SANGER: That’s argumentative the way
28 it’s phrased. 9740
1 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: It’s offered as
2 impeachment.
3 THE COURT: Overruled.
4 You may answer.
5 THE WITNESS: Do you know who the head of
6 security was?
7 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Zimmerman. I believe
8 he was your father.
9 A. I don’t recall.
10 Q. All right. Do you consider yourself a loyal
11 employee of Mr. Jackson?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you previously testified that he’s the
14 person who gives you your instructions for your job
15 at Neverland?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you take any orders from Dieter Weizner?
18 MR. SANGER: I’m going to object to the term
19 “orders” as vague.
20 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’ll rephrase that.
21 That’s fair.
22 Q. In terms of your duties as the ranch manager
23 of Neverland Ranch, do you take orders from Dieter
24 Weizner?
25 A. I would take requests from Dieter Weizner
26 and address them as needed.
27 Q. And those requests would be the normal
28 requests of a guest, true? 9741
1 A. True.
2 Q. But as far as policies and procedures at
3 Neverland Ranch, Dieter Weizner doesn’t tell you
4 what to do, true?
5 A. True.
6 Q. And neither does Marc Schaffel?
7 A. True.
8 Q. Neither does Frank Cascio?
9 A. True.
10 Q. Or Vinnie Amen?
11 A. True.
12 Q. Or Hamid Moslehi?
13 A. True.
14 Q. Ronald Konitzer?
15 A. True.
16 Q. That’s because Mr. Jackson is the only
17 person who can tell you how to handle policies and
18 procedures at Neverland Ranch, correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Have you reviewed any documents in this case
21 in your preparation for your testimony?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Which documents?
24 A. My -- the document the investigator let me
25 see before.
26 Q. I’m sorry?
27 A. It was a document of what I was to testify
28 to. 9742
1 Q. You were given a document regarding what you
2 were to testify to?
3 A. No, what I had testified -- what I had
4 stated in an interview with the investigator.
5 Q. An investigator who was working for Mr.
6 Jackson?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How many documents did you review?
9 A. It was just my statement. I think it was a
10 page and a half.
11 Q. Just one statement?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How many times have you been interviewed in
14 this case by Mr. Jackson’s investigators?
15 A. That was it.
16 Q. Just one time?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And was that in November of -- I’m sorry.
19 Was that in the early part of 2004?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Who was the investigator that interviewed
22 you?
23 A. Jesus Castillo.
24 Q. Was he the only investigator that has
25 interviewed you in relation to this case?
26 A. I believe so.
27 Q. Haven’t you been interviewed by Eric Mason?
28 A. No. 9743
Subject: May 10, 2005 
Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:50 pm
