1 Jackson’s room.
2 A. I don’t think so.
3 Q. You don’t think you ever asked them that
4 question again.
5 A. I think it was like we only stood there that
6 one night, and then after that, we stood in our
7 units or something. Because I think that’s the only
8 night I slept in his room, the first night.
9 Q. Okay. You said after that, you had stayed
10 in the guest units.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And are the guest units where your mother
13 was staying.
14 A. Well, there’s a lot of guest units, so I
15 think me and my brother had a room. Me and my
16 brother and my sister had a room, and my mom and my
17 dad had another room.
18 Q. Okay. And you and your brother would stay
19 in those guest units, right.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And approximately how many of those trips to
22 Neverland do you think you and your brother stayed
23 in the guest units.
24 A. After that first night we would stay in
25 there every night we would go there, every time, or
26 sometimes we would go to the train house and sleep
27 up there.
28 Q. You’d sleep in the train house. 1917
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Please tell the jury where the train house
3 is.
4 A. It’s on top of a -- like you come -- like
5 the guest units are right here, and you go up the
6 side of this hill, and then up there there’s like
7 this train station. And then you can sleep in
8 there, because there’s, like, couches, and you can
9 roll out a bed, and then there’s a T.V. there and
10 stuff. It was pretty cool.
11 Q. How many times do you think you and your
12 brother stayed in the train house.
13 A. A few nights, I guess.
14 Q. When you visited Neverland with Chris
15 Tucker, did you stay in the train house.
16 A. Yeah. I think so. I think that’s the time
17 that we stood in the train house.
18 Q. Do you know where Chris Tucker stayed when
19 you visited Neverland with Chris Tucker.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you ever go into his room.
22 A. I think we might have. I don’t know. I
23 mean, I don’t know where he stood right as of now.
24 I mean, I don’t remember, but I don’t -- I think we
25 went into his room to, like, say, “Let’s go do
26 this,” or something like that.
27 Q. Let me ask you this: After the first night
28 your family was at Neverland, when do you next 1918
1 remember your mother visiting Neverland.
2 A. Not until after we came back from Miami.
3 Q. So you don’t think your mother ever visited
4 Neverland between your first visit in the year 2000
5 and right after the Miami trip.
6 A. Yes. I don’t think she did.
7 Q. Okay. You don’t recall her being there at
8 all.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. And you recall your father being
11 there once or twice.
12 A. No, I recall my father being there every
13 time I went up there.
14 Q. And how many times was that.
15 A. When I had cancer, it was -- well, he went
16 up there every time that I had cancer. And he
17 was -- I’m not sure how many times I stood there.
18 That was -- because I think I stopped going out
19 there after my fourth chemotherapy round. And so it
20 was -- probably we went there, like, four or five
21 times, or something like that, yeah.
22 Q. At some point you learned about the Bashir
23 documentary by watching television, right.
24 A. Well, I didn’t really know it was the Bashir
25 documentary until I -- we started talking about it
26 more with Chris, and stuff like that.
27 And I just remember watching the news and
28 they were talking about kids and Michael, but I 1919
1 didn’t really know they were talking about the
2 Martin Bashir documentary.
3 Q. Well, you were watching CNN, correct.
4 A. I think I was. I don’t know.
5 Q. And at some point you saw a reference to
6 yourself being in the Bashir documentary, right. Is
7 that true.
8 A. I didn’t know it was the Bashir documentary,
9 but they said -- I personally thought it was some
10 guy that was saying stuff about Michael. And they
11 were talking -- I thought they mentioned my name
12 when they were talking about Michael. But I didn’t
13 know it was the Martin Bashir documentary until,
14 like, we started talking to Chris and stuff.
15 Q. But you told the Santa Barbara Sheriffs your
16 name was mentioned a lot, correct.
17 A. No, I think I only told them my name was
18 mentioned maybe -- I don’t think “a lot.” But, I
19 mean, I did think my name was mentioned.
20 Q. You told the sheriffs, “Because on, like,
21 CNN and stuff, they started saying, like, Gavin --
22 Gavin this and Gavin that, right.
23 A. I don’t remember. I mean, I guess I did,
24 because it’s in the transcript.
25 Q. Were they really mentioning your name on the
26 newscasts.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. How many times did you hear your name 1920
1 mentioned on the newscasts.
2 A. Three or four times. I don’t know.
3 Q. Did you -- were you watching that with your
4 mom.
5 A. Yes. Our whole family was watching it.
6 Q. And generally speaking, would you say your
7 family was upset.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. And do you recall your mother ever
10 calling up Michael Jackson to talk about it.
11 A. No. I remember Michael calling us.
12 Q. Do you recall your mother ever discussing
13 the fact that you had legal rights regarding that
14 show.
15 A. No. I mean -- the Martin Bashir thing.
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you recall your mother ever discussing
19 her claim that she never gave permission for you to
20 be on a show.
21 A. Oh, yes. I remember that.
22 Q. Okay. And when is the first time you heard
23 your mother complain about her not giving proper
24 permission for you to be on the show.
25 A. I don’t remember.
26 Q. Do you recall ever going to a lawyer with
27 your mother to discuss your legal rights in that
28 regard. 1921
1 A. Hmm, I’m not sure.
2 Q. Do you remember discussing that with
3 Attorney Bill Dickerman.
4 A. Oh, yeah, yeah. We went to The Laugh
5 Factory and we talked to Bill. My mom was talking
6 to him. I mean, I was, like, playing around or
7 something. I was -- like, with the microphone.
8 Q. And the discussion concerned, among other
9 things, the fact that you had legal rights in that
10 documentary, right.
11 A. I guess. I mean, I wasn’t really paying
12 attention. I was kind of bored.
13 Q. Okay. Do you recall -- do you remember the
14 rebuttal video.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you remember you went to Hamid’s home to
17 film the rebuttal video.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you remember discussions before you
20 filmed that video about whether or not your mother
21 was going to sign a release.
22 A. Not too sure.
23 Q. Do you remember anything like that.
24 A. No.
25 Q. You claim that Michael Jackson called you on
26 the phone and said there’s going to be a press
27 conference in Florida, right.
28 A. Yes. 1922
1 Q. Did you want to be in a press conference.
2 A. Yeah. I wanted to, like, say that Michael
3 was a good guy and stuff.
4 Q. And you were disappointed when you got to
5 Florida and no press conference took place, right.
6 A. I guess. But, I mean, I was still kind of
7 having fun, so it wasn’t that big of a deal to me.
8 Q. I couldn’t hear what you said.
9 A. I was still having fun, so it wasn’t really
10 that big of a deal to me.
11 Q. Well, you thought that you were going to
12 Florida to appear in a press conference with Michael
13 Jackson, correct.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You flew on Chris Tucker’s plane to Florida,
16 right.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You stayed at a luxury hotel, right.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You came back a couple of days later, right.
21 A. We went right to Neverland after we came
22 back.
23 Q. And there never was a press conference that
24 you appeared at in Florida, right.
25 A. No.
26 Q. And that upset you, didn’t it.
27 A. Um, as I said, not really. Because it
28 wasn’t -- I mean, I thought we were. I mean -- and 1923
1 then he said that we’re not going to. Well, he
2 didn’t really say that we’re not going to. I mean,
3 it never really happened, so it’s like -- I was
4 like, “Okay, whatever.” I mean -- and I was still
5 having fun playing around and stuff, playing video
6 games and stuff.
7 Q. When you were in Miami, you stayed with your
8 mom in a room, right.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That was at the Turnberry Hotel, right.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That was a floor below Michael Jackson’s
13 suite, true.
14 A. I don’t know.
15 Q. It wasn’t a floor below.
16 A. I said that I don’t know.
17 Q. Do you remember your mother ever complaining
18 that she wanted to be in Michael Jackson’s suite.
19 A. No.
20 Q. Never heard anything like that.
21 A. No.
22 Q. And you say you never stayed overnight in
23 Mr. Jackson’s room at the Turnberry in Miami, right.
24 A. No. I never stood in his room.
25 Q. Do you remember telling the Santa Barbara
26 Sheriffs that Michael Jackson first touched you
27 inappropriately during your last days at Neverland.
28 A. Yes. 1924
1 Q. Were you telling the truth.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. This was shortly before Vinnie drove your
4 family to your grandparents’, right.
5 A. Not -- well, it was like a week or --
6 probably two weeks before Vinnie drove us back.
7 Q. Well, you said to the sheriffs it was during
8 the last days at Neverland, right.
9 A. Well, days equals -- seven days equals a
10 week, so it could be days. So, I mean, it was more
11 like a week or two.
12 Q. We’ll get to that.
13 Did you discuss over the weekend with
14 Prosecutor Sneddon exactly when you say this
15 inappropriate touching took place.
16 A. No. Not over this -- no.
17 Q. Did you have any discussion at all with the
18 prosecutors last night about when you say the
19 inappropriate touching took place.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. Now, when you claim you were
22 masturbated, were you wearing pajamas.
23 A. Yes, I was wearing Michael’s pajamas.
24 Q. Okay. Now, clearly during the last days at
25 Neverland, you and your family, from what you say,
26 wanted to leave, right.
27 A. Well, my mom always wanted to leave. I
28 wanted to stay, because I was having lots of fun, 1925
1 but my mom was always really worried.
2 Q. Well, at some point you say you escaped from
3 Neverland, right.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You’ve told the jury you escaped a couple of
6 times before the final escape, which was when you
7 left for good --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So what you are telling this jury is that
12 after a couple of escapes, and following your return
13 from those escapes, you claim you were
14 inappropriately touched. That’s what you’re saying,
15 right.
16 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your
17 Honor.
18 THE COURT: Overruled.
19 You may answer. Do you want the question
20 read back.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 (Record read.)
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, you told the sheriffs
25 that after Miami, you slept in Michael Jackson’s
26 room every night, right.
27 A. I slept in his room every night that Michael
28 was there. 1926
1 Q. And this would include visits when your
2 mother was staying at Neverland, correct.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are you telling the jury that you never
5 discussed your staying in Michael’s room with your
6 mother.
7 A. Not really, because my mom was always in her
8 unit. She was never outside or with us really. I
9 mean, so we would just go into Michael’s room.
10 Q. Are you telling the jury that your mother
11 never asked you, during any of those visits, “Where
12 are you spending the night.”
13 A. Not really, because I think she thought we
14 were sleeping in our unit. I mean, because she was
15 always in her unit.
16 Q. Are you telling the jury your mother never
17 left her unit at any time after the Miami trip.
18 A. She probably left a few times, but, I mean,
19 mainly she was always in her unit.
20 Q. And how many nights do you think you spent
21 in Michael Jackson’s room after the Miami trip.
22 A. I’m not sure because, I mean, every time
23 that Michael was there, me and my brother would be
24 in his room.
25 Q. And you never had one discussion with your
26 mom at any time after Miami about where you were
27 staying at night.
28 A. I might have. I don’t think I did. I’m 1927
1 pretty sure that I didn’t, because she was never
2 really involved in what we were doing at Neverland.
3 Q. And you’ve told the jury that you and your
4 brother were drinking every single night, right.
5 A. Every night that Michael was there.
6 Q. You were drinking alcohol every single night
7 that Michael was there; is that what you’re saying.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. How about the nights that Michael
10 wasn’t there.
11 A. We wouldn’t drink. I mean --
12 Q. Well, you and your brother were caught by
13 employees at Neverland drinking when Michael wasn’t
14 there, weren’t you.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Never happened.
17 A. No.
18 Q. No one ever walked in the wine cellar at
19 Neverland and caught you and your brother drinking
20 when Michael wasn’t there.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you know where the key was to the wine
23 cellar.
24 A. No.
25 Q. To your knowledge, did your brother know
26 where the key was to the wine cellar.
27 A. I don’t think he ever knew. He was always
28 with me everywhere we went. 1928
1 Q. Did you ever learn where the key was to the
2 wine cellar.
3 A. No.
4 Q. To this day, you don’t know.
5 A. To this day, I don’t know.
6 Q. Never discussed it with your brother.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. Now, correct me if I’m wrong, you’ve
9 told the jury -- excuse me, let me rephrase that.
10 You’ve told the sheriffs that Michael
11 Jackson would give you and your brother Bacardi,
12 right.
13 A. That was one of the things he gave us, yes.
14 Q. That was rum, right.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you also said he’d give you Skyy Vodka,
17 right.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Jim Beam, which was bourbon, right.
20 A. I don’t know what it is, but, yes.
21 Q. And red and white wine, right.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you drink all this stuff at once.
24 A. No, it was over the whole period of time
25 that we were over there.
26 Q. Okay. But never once did you taste any of
27 this stuff when Michael wasn’t there.
28 A. No. 1929
1 Q. Okay. Never took any alcohol out of the
2 refrigerator in the kitchen, right.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Never got caught taking alcohol out of the
5 refrigerator in the kitchen, right.
6 A. I never took any alcohol out of the
7 refrigerator in the kitchen.
8 Q. To your knowledge, was your brother ever
9 caught taking alcohol out of the refrigerator in the
10 kitchen.
11 A. I was always with him during the day, so no,
12 he didn’t.
13 Q. Okay. Now, you told the sheriffs at some
14 point your mother was scared and wanted to leave
15 Neverland, right.
16 A. My mom was scared, like, the whole time.
17 Q. Did you discuss your mother being scared
18 with your mother at Neverland.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you have talks with her about it.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And at no time during any of those
23 discussions did where you and Star were sleeping at
24 night come up.
25 MR. SNEDDON: Object as asked and answered,
26 Your Honor.
27 THE COURT: Sustained.
28 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You talked about a black 1930
1 suitcase. Do you remember that.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When did you first see the black suitcase.
4 A. The same night that we came back from Miami.
5 Q. And this is right after the Miami trip.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The first night you’re back.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And when did you first see it.
10 A. In Michael’s, like, bathroom room, and,
11 like, he had all this stuff. Like he had, like, a
12 sink and a bathtub and a mirror and stuff.
13 Q. Before I explore that subject, you’ve talked
14 to the jury about Michael Jackson giving you a watch
15 that you claim he said was worth $75,000, right.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And that’s the watch you claim that others
18 wanted to get back from you, right.
19 A. Oh, yes. Like the -- I think Frank wanted
20 me to give it back or something like that.
21 Q. So after the Miami trip, you had the watch,
22 right.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You claimed that Mr. Jackson told you it was
25 worth $75,000, right.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Were you wearing it.
28 A. Yes. I believe so, yes. 1931
1 Q. And did Frank or someone else notice the
2 watch, to your knowledge.
3 A. Yeah. Yes.
4 Q. Did you discuss the watch with Frank.
5 A. Not really in -- I think Chris -- I mean,
6 Frank wanted me to give it back. And then I told
7 Michael, and Michael was like, “No, no, that’s your
8 watch. I gave it to you.”
9 Q. And did you have a discussion with Frank
10 about whether you should return it.
11 A. Frank, I think, wanted me to return it, and
12 Michael told me not to.
13 Q. At some point, did you ever complain to
14 anyone that that watch was not worth $75,000.
15 A. No. I always thought it was worth $75,000.
16 Q. Did you ever learn at some point it wasn’t.
17 A. No.
18 Q. To this day, is that what you think.
19 A. I’m pretty sure that’s how much it’s worth.
20 Q. Okay. Do you recall the Make a Wish
21 Foundation.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you have experience with them.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What is your experiences with Make a Wish
26 Foundation.
27 A. They called me up because I have cancer.
28 They do it for everybody that has -- every child 1932
1 that has cancer. And then they call you up and say
2 that, “You have one wish,” and they tell you that,
3 “Pretend I’m the genie, and you have one wish that
4 you can have.”
5 And then I asked them -- first I asked -- I
6 wanted a dog, like a little puppy, a beagle, but my,
7 like, dad -- my parents said that I can’t have a
8 beagle because it can get me sick. So I ended up
9 just asking for a vacation.
10 Q. And did you obtain any benefits from that
11 foundation; do you know.
12 A. Just a vacation.
13 Q. They paid for a vacation.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And approximately when was that.
16 A. Well, the doctor said to not go, because I
17 would have -- because I had -- like, it was such a
18 big amount of chemotherapy, that it would wipe out
19 every single one of the blood cells that I had. So
20 I would -- it would be bad if I get a fever, because
21 I was getting lots of fevers, because my white blood
22 cells can’t fight it because they’re so little. And
23 I would have to go in the hospital, and then they’d
24 have to give me antibiotics.
25 And if I was over in Hawaii, and I got a
26 fever because of some bacteria or something that was
27 in me, I -- I wouldn’t be able to go back, and then
28 I would get really sick. 1933
1 Q. Did Michael Jackson ever help you make
2 contact with that foundation.
3 A. No, I don’t believe so. I believe the
4 hospital social worker did.
5 Q. Do you recall ever discussing with Mr.
6 Jackson the Make a Wish Foundation.
7 A. I think I asked him if he donated money to
8 the Make a Wish Foundation.
9 Q. Do you recall what he said.
10 A. He said that he did.
11 Q. Okay. Do you know when you discussed that
12 with him.
13 A. I think it was like when he was doing the
14 rebuttal thing, when he was getting ready to do the
15 rebuttal. He was writing down all the foundations
16 that he ever donated to.
17 Q. And did you have a discussion with him about
18 that.
19 A. Not really. I mean, I saw him -- I mean, we
20 were talking about it, or whatever, and then we were
21 like, “Okay, okay,” and then we left and we were
22 playing some more.
23 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned on your first day
24 of testimony that when you showed up for the Bashir
25 filming, there was some discussion about a burn
26 victim.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Tell the jury what that was about. 1934
1 A. Well, there was a boy there that had gotten
2 burned really bad, and then Michael said that he
3 helped him or something. And then that he was going
4 to -- that he was going to film him, too. So --
5 Q. Were you supposed to be in the same film.
6 A. Yeah. Yes.
7 Q. And did you have a discussion with Michael
8 about that subject.
9 A. About me being in there.
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Did you ever meet this person who was
13 burned.
14 A. Yeah, I think Michael introduced me to him.
15 Q. And when was this.
16 A. Around the same time as the Martin Bashir
17 thing.
18 Q. Was it at Neverland.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you talk to this person.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you remember the person’s name.
23 A. I think his name might have been David.
24 Q. Was it Rothenberg.
25 A. I don’t know.
26 Q. Was this a young man that you learned’s
27 father had poured gasoline on him and set him on
28 fire. 1935
1 A. I don’t know.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. I think that’s what happened.
4 Q. And he was supposed to be in the film with
5 you, right.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. And correct me if I’m wrong, you
8 discussed with Michael the fact that Michael had
9 helped this young boy, right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. Did you talk to this young boy about
12 what he had experienced.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. Did you ever see him.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And please describe for the jury what he
17 looked like.
18 A. He looked like he was really badly burned
19 and he had like -- he was like a rocker. He was
20 wearing, like, rocker stuff. And he was burned.
21 And he had like only a few hairs on his head because
22 I guess it covered all the pores when he was burned.
23 Q. Did you and he appear in the film, if you
24 know.
25 A. Later I watched it, and then -- well, I
26 watched my part, and then I don’t think he was in
27 there.
28 Q. Okay. But was he at Neverland the day you 1936
1 were filmed.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. Did you meet him shortly after you
4 arrived.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Did you and he walk around Neverland.
7 A. No. I don’t think so.
8 Q. How much time did you spend with him.
9 A. Michael introduced me to him and he was
10 older than me, so I mean -- I was pretty young. I
11 mean -- I don’t know. We just didn’t really have
12 that much in common that much.
13 Q. Okay. Were you ever personally threatened
14 by anyone associated with Mr. Jackson.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay.
17 THE COURT: Let’s take our morning break.
18 (Recess taken.)
19 THE COURT: All right. You may proceed.
20 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.
21 Q. Mr. Arvizo, do you recall being interviewed
22 by the Santa Barbara Sheriffs about drinking in the
23 arcade.
24 THE COURT: They can’t hear you in the back
25 of the room.
26 THE BAILIFF: Do you still have your
27 microphone on.
28 MR. MESEREAU: It’s on. 1937
1 Q. Mr. Arvizo, do you recall discussing with
2 the Santa Barbara Sheriffs your claim that you were
3 drinking in the arcade with Michael Jackson.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you recall telling them the following:
6 “We didn’t drink a lot”.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
9 you a transcript from that interview.
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Yes.
13 MR. SNEDDON: I’m sorry, Counsel, what page
14 was that.
15 MR. MESEREAU: 26.
16 Q. Mr. Arvizo, have you had a chance to look at
17 that page.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what
20 you told the Santa Barbara Sheriffs.
21 A. Not really.
22 Q. You told them, “We didn’t drink a lot,”
23 right.
24 A. I don’t know. It says it on there.
25 Q. Do you recall saying that.
26 A. No.
27 Q. Pardon me.
28 A. No. 1938
1 Q. Do you deny saying that.
2 A. I don’t know if I ever said that.
3 Q. Would you agree that every time you were
4 interviewed, your stories of drinking got worse and
5 worse, correct.
6 A. No.
7 Q. You initially told them you didn’t drink a
8 lot.
9 A. That’s true.
10 Q. Then you started telling them you drank a
11 lot, and then you started telling them, “We drank
12 every night,” correct.
13 A. Well, “a lot” would be every night, so it
14 would really --
15 Q. Pardon me.
16 A. “A lot” would be every night.
17 Q. And you’re saying after Miami that you
18 basically were drinking every single evening at
19 Neverland, correct.
20 A. No, I told him that every single evening
21 that Michael was there. In those transcripts,
22 probably when -- I still -- I don’t know.
23 Q. Isn’t it true that every time you were
24 interviewed, your stories of drinking got bigger and
25 bigger and bigger.
26 A. No.
27 Q. Are you saying your stories to the sheriffs
28 were always consistent when it came to drinking. 1939
1 A. I’m pretty sure they are. I mean, it
2 doesn’t really matter whether I said that or not.
3 I’m saying the fact is that we drank every night
4 that Michael was there.
5 Q. Did you ever discuss your drinking with your
6 mother when she was at Neverland.
7 A. I think I called her up at night -- yeah, I
8 called her up at night once.
9 Q. You called her up.
10 A. Called her on Michael’s phone.
11 Q. You called her from Michael’s room to say
12 you were drinking.
13 A. No.
14 Q. During the nights after Miami, when your
15 mother was staying at Neverland, are you saying you
16 never discussed your drinking with her.
17 A. No. I -- there was one -- I’m talking about
18 the one night that I told Michael that -- I told
19 Michael about the test that I had to take, and I
20 called my mom up. That’s what I was talking about.
21 Q. Okay. So not only did you never have a
22 discussion with your mother about where you were
23 staying at night, but you never had a discussion
24 with her about drinking alcohol; is that correct.
25 A. Yes.
26 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your
27 Honor.
28 THE COURT: Sustained. 1940
1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you were at the
2 Calabasas Inn, was there a phone in your room.
3 A. I’m pretty sure there was.
4 Q. Did you ever see anybody call the police.
5 A. No.
6 Q. When you were shopping near the Calabasas
7 Inn, to your knowledge, did anyone ever scream
8 “help”.
9 A. No, I don’t think so.
10 Q. Ever see your mother do it.
11 A. No.
12 Q. Ever see Star do it.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Ever see your sister do it.
15 A. No.
16 Q. You didn’t do it either, correct.
17 A. No.
18 Q. After you escaped from Neverland the first
19 time, where did you go.
20 A. I think we went to my grandmother’s house.
21 Q. To your knowledge, did anybody call the
22 police and say, “We’ve been” --
23 A. No, because the thing was, like I --
24 Q. Let me just finish my question.
25 A. Okay.
26 Q. After you say you escaped from Neverland the
27 first time, you went to your grandparents’, correct.
28 A. Yes. 1941
1 Q. And how did you get there.
2 A. Jesus Salas drove us there.
3 Q. Do you recall anyone ever calling the police
4 and saying, “We’ve just been held against our will”.
5 A. No. Because like I -- my mom was --
6 Q. Let me just ask you the questions. Okay.
7 Nobody did, right.
8 A. No.
9 Q. A few days later, you went back to
10 Neverland, right.
11 A. I believe -- yes.
12 Q. And then you say you escaped a second time,
13 correct.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And when you escaped the second time, how
16 did you get out of Neverland.
17 A. I don’t know.
18 Q. Someone drove you somewhere, right.
19 A. Yeah, probably.
20 Q. Did you go to your grandparents’ again.
21 A. Probably.
22 Q. Nobody called the police from your
23 grandparents’ when you say you escaped the second
24 time, right.
25 A. No.
26 Q. And then you claim you returned, right.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And you say you finally escaped for good, 1942
1 right.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And when you got back after finally escaping
4 for good to your grandparents’, nobody called the
5 police, correct.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Now, when you say Mr. Jackson masturbated
8 you, you’ve indicated that was sometime between
9 Jesus Salas driving your family to your
10 grandparents’ and your final trip out of Neverland,
11 correct.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. And that’s at a time when you say
14 your mother was being threatened, correct.
15 A. My mother said that she felt -- that she was
16 being threatened, she felt. And Frank also told me
17 once that -- because he was angry about my mom
18 always wanting to leave and stuff.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. And --
21 Q. But basically what you’re saying is that the
22 inappropriate touching by Michael Jackson happened
23 after you’d escaped a few times, correct.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. After you’d gone back a few times after your
26 escapes, right.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And after you claim you knew your mother was 1943
1 being threatened by Frank, correct.
2 A. Frank was angry at my mom once and he told
3 me, “Hey, Gavin, you know I could have your mother
4 killed.”
5 Q. Okay. And you believed him, correct.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you believe Frank.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. And you knew about the Brazil
10 planning at this point, correct.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Because you’d been to an agency, a federal
13 office to get a visa, right.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you remember driving down to that federal
16 office.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you remember going into the federal
19 office.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And while you were in that federal office,
22 nobody screamed for help, right.
23 A. No.
24 Q. And this was after you had the interview
25 with the three social workers at Jay Jackson’s home,
26 right.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And during the interview with the social 1944
1 workers at Jay Jackson’s home, nobody screamed for
2 help; true.
3 A. No.
4 Q. And that was after you went to Hamid’s home
5 for the rebuttal video, right.
6 A. I think it was. I don’t know.
7 Q. Right.
8 A. I think it was.
9 Q. And what you’re saying is that after your
10 interview with the social workers, where you were
11 asked questions about Michael Jackson, you’re saying
12 it was after that that inappropriate touching began,
13 correct.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. While Mr. Jackson is being investigated by
16 Los Angeles County, true.
17 A. It -- it didn’t happen until the last few
18 weeks before I left. Or two weeks, somewhere around
19 there.
20 Q. Let me ask the question again.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. The three social workers were from Los
23 Angeles County, true.
24 A. I think they were.
25 Q. And they were asking you questions about
26 whether Mr. Jackson had ever inappropriately touched
27 you, correct.
28 A. Yes. 1945
1 Q. And you said “No,” right.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You knew they were investigating Mr.
4 Jackson, right.
5 A. No, I thought they were just going to try to
6 ask me, and that was it. I didn’t know --
7 Q. But what you’re telling the jury is that
8 after this investigation starts and after you and
9 your family are questioned, Mr. Jackson supposedly
10 starts touching you inappropriately, right.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Now, you indicated to the jury last
13 week that the first time Mr. Jackson inappropriately
14 touched you, you weren’t looking at him, right.
15 A. Well, it’s like I would turn over to him
16 sometimes. I glanced over at him a couple times.
17 Q. You said you weren’t really looking at him,
18 right.
19 A. Not really.
20 Q. Okay. You said you weren’t looking at him,
21 but you could somehow feel him moving, correct.
22 A. I could feel his leg like moving up
23 against --
24 Q. Okay. After that, did you complain to your
25 mother that you had been inappropriately touched.
26 A. No. I never discussed it with my mom. I
27 never discussed it with my mom at all.
28 Q. Did you complain to Star that you had been 1946
1 inappropriately touched.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you complain to your sister that you had
4 been inappropriately touched.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you complain to Jay Jackson that you had
7 been inappropriately touched.
8 A. No.
9 Q. Were you upset when you say you were
10 inappropriately touched.
11 A. If I was upset.
12 Q. Yes. Were you upset.
13 A. Yeah. Because, I mean, something happened
14 to where, like, it’s not like I can go back and
15 change it; you know what I mean. It’s like
16 something that I have, like, no control of.
17 Q. Well, at this point, in your mind, your
18 mother’s been threatened and you’ve been
19 inappropriately touched, correct.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you remained at Neverland, true.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you claim you continued to stay in his
24 bedroom, right.
25 A. Well, I think he left after the second time.
26 Q. You think Michael Jackson left after the
27 second time.
28 A. Yeah, a few days after the second time. 1947
1 That’s why I’m pretty sure that it happened a few --
2 two weeks before, because I know I’m pretty sure
3 that Michael left like a day after the second time.
4 Q. Well, but you told the jury last week it was
5 a couple of days before you left for good. Do you
6 remember that.
7 A. No. You kept on saying that.
8 Q. Pardon me.
9 A. No. You kept on saying that.
10 Q. Well, let’s look at this.
11 You said that maybe a few days before you
12 left Neverland for good you were inappropriately
13 touched, right.
14 MR. SNEDDON: Judge, I’m going to object as
15 asked and answered. He was asked this morning.
16 THE COURT: Sustained.
17 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember saying
18 last week, Mr. Arvizo, when I asked you when it
19 happened, you said, “No, it was more toward the end,
20 toward when we were already about to leave, after we
21 had been drinking alcohol and all that stuff. It
22 wasn’t directly after the DCSF. It was more toward
23 the end of the” -- a few days before you left
24 Neverland, right.
25 MR. SNEDDON: Same objection, Your Honor.
26 Asked and answered.
27 THE COURT: Sustained.
28 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You then changed it later 1948
1 on in that examination to say, “It was a week before
2 we left,” right.
3 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
4 object to counsel. He’s just trying to read this in
5 after the objection.
6 THE COURT: Sustained.
7 Counsel, you’re -- be quiet. You’re arguing
8 your case. Stop it. Start asking questions.
9 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor.
10 Q. Do you know when you first saw Attorney
11 Larry Feldman.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. When was that.
14 A. It was after all the stuff was done.
15 Q. And approximately when.
16 A. I don’t know.
17 Q. Have you discussed your meeting with Larry
18 Feldman with any prosecutor.
19 A. I don’t think so.
20 Q. At any time.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Pardon me.
23 A. No. I don’t think I ever talked to anyone.
24 Q. So you’ve never talked to any prosecutor
25 about your meeting with Attorney Feldman. Is that
26 what you’re saying.
27 A. I don’t think I did.
28 Q. Okay. Did you ever discuss your meeting 1949
1 with Attorney Larry Feldman with any sheriff.
2 A. I don’t think I did.
3 Q. Do you know for sure.
4 A. No.
5 Q. You eventually spoke to a psychologist named
6 Stanley Katz, correct.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know about when that was.
9 A. No.
10 Q. You told Stanley Katz that chemotherapy had
11 messed up your head. Do you remember that.
12 A. Yeah, it -- for a while it was hard for me
13 to do schoolwork in school because of the
14 chemotherapy.
15 Q. And you told Stanley Katz that, correct.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you tell him you had memory problems.
18 A. Yeah, for a while I had memory problems.
19 Q. And that was from chemotherapy, correct.
20 A. I believe so.
21 Q. Were you taking any medications at the time
22 you returned to Neverland from Miami.
23 A. I had -- I have to take, even now, the 500
24 milligrams of Amoxicillin, and five milligrams of
25 Lycinopril for my kidney and because I don’t have a
26 spleen.
27 Q. Do you remember telling Psychologist Stanley
28 Katz you thought a crazy fan of Michael Jackson will 1950
1 kill you.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You never told that to the sheriffs,
4 correct.
5 A. I’m pretty sure I discussed it with them.
6 Q. Well, it never appears in your interviews,
7 right.
8 A. Yeah, I guess it didn’t. But, I mean, it
9 doesn’t mean I didn’t tell them that.
10 Q. The only time that you used the word “kill”
11 was when you told the sheriffs that Frank had
12 threatened to kill your mom, right.
13 A. Uh-huh. In an interview.
14 Q. When did you start thinking that a crazy fan
15 of Michael Jackson will kill you.
16 A. When Frank kept on telling us that people --
17 there was death threats on us.
18 Q. What were the death threats.
19 A. I don’t know. Frank just told us that.
20 Q. Well, when you discussed that with Stanley
21 Katz, you didn’t tell him that came from Frank. You
22 told him you personally were frightened, right.
23 A. Yeah. Be -- but I mean --
24 Q. Is that right.
25 A. Yes. Frank was the one that really made me
26 realize that that could happen.
27 Q. Okay. Now, did you ever discuss with
28 Michael Jackson your fear that a fan might hurt you. 1951
1 A. I don’t know.
2 Q. Did you ever discuss with Michael Jackson
3 what Frank was telling you that you thought was
4 threatening.
5 A. I don’t think I did.
6 Q. Okay. So based on your experiences, Michael
7 Jackson knew nothing about what Frank was saying to
8 you, correct.
9 MR. SNEDDON: Object. It calls for
10 speculation.
11 THE COURT: Sustained.
12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you were at the
13 Calabasas Inn, you never spoke to Michael Jackson,
14 right.
15 A. No, I don’t think so.
16 Q. The night before you did the rebuttal video,
17 you never spoke to Michael Jackson, right.
18 A. I might have. I don’t know.
19 Q. The day you did the rebuttal video, you
20 never spoke to Michael Jackson, right.
21 A. No. Michael was telling me that I’m going
22 to do a rebuttal for him.
23 THE REPORTER: What was the last part.
24 THE WITNESS: Michael was telling me before
25 we went that we were going to do the rebuttal for
26 him.
27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Approximately when was
28 that. 1952
1 A. Maybe right before the rebuttal.
2 Q. When you spoke on that rebuttal video, were
3 you telling the truth.
4 A. No.
5 Q. Were you lying.
6 A. Dieter had us pretty much -- yeah, Dieter
7 had us lie.
8 Q. Were you lying throughout that rebuttal
9 video.
10 A. There was probably a few things that were
11 true, but, I mean, a lot of it was what Dieter told
12 us to say.
13 Q. Was it your understanding that your mother
14 was lying.
15 A. She was saying what Dieter told her to say.
16 Q. Was it your understanding she was lying.
17 A. Yes, she was lying, because Dieter told her
18 to say it.
19 Q. Was it your understanding that Star was
20 lying in that rebuttal video.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And was it your understanding that your
23 sister lied on that rebuttal video.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you were lying about Mr. Jackson helping
26 you with cancer; is that correct.
27 A. No, because Michael did help me a little
28 bit, but, I mean, he -- for me, what I felt as a 1953
1 little kid, I mean, besides the fact of all this
2 money and who paid for this and who paid for that,
3 who -- I felt who really helped me was my other
4 friends.
5 Because Michael, at the time when he was
6 calling me and talking to me and stuff, I felt like
7 he was my best friend. But, I mean, when he -- when
8 I would call his phone numbers and a little
9 operating lady would say, “This phone is no longer
10 in service.” I mean, I never called Chris and his
11 phone was never in service. I never called George
12 and his phone wasn’t in service.
13 Q. Do you recall being caught at Neverland with
14 girlie magazines when you were not around Michael
15 Jackson.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Are you saying that never happened.
18 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, 403 hearing.
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 I’ll -- that’s sort of a -- you know what
21 he’s talking about on the 403 hearing, right.
22 MR. MESEREAU: I thought I was able to get
23 into these areas on cross.
24 THE COURT: Yes. That’s why I’m looking at
25 you, because I don’t want to discuss it. I just
26 want to make sure we understand each other.
27 MR. MESEREAU: Yeah, I won’t go further than
28 that on this one. 1954
1 There’s another area, too, I think the Court
2 gave me permission.
3 THE COURT: That’s correct.
4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Arvizo, you were
5 caught masturbating at Neverland when Michael
6 Jackson wasn’t even around, weren’t you.
7 A. No.
8 Q. You were caught masturbating in a guest
9 quarters, weren’t you.
10 A. No.
11 Q. No one ever saw you do that.
12 A. No.
13 Q. No one ever talked to you about that.
14 A. No one ever talked to me about it.
15 Q. Okay. Long after you did the rebuttal
16 video, you had written numerous letters and cards to
17 Michael Jackson thanking him for what he did for
18 your cancer, true.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Long before you did the rebuttal video, you
21 had written numerous cards and letters to Michael
22 Jackson referring to him as your father, true.
23 A. Yes. Because I missed him. I mean, I
24 wanted to know what happened, why he wasn’t calling
25 anymore. And that’s the only real way I had
26 connection with him was through mail, because I had
27 Evvy’s -- I knew where Evvy was, so I could send it
28 to her. 1955
1 Q. And long before you did the rebuttal video,
2 you sent cards and letters to Michael Jackson
3 referring to yourself as his son, true.
4 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
5 object. This has all been asked and answered.
6 MR. MESEREAU: I don’t think it has.
7 THE COURT: Well, there wasn’t a time frame.
8 You have covered the cards and letters. Is there a
9 specific time frame you’re concerned about.
10 MR. MESEREAU: Any time before the rebuttal
11 video, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: I think you’ve covered that. The
13 objection is sustained.
14 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Okay.
15 Q. We’re going to go through the rebuttal
16 video. And I’m just going to ask you some questions
17 about what you said and how you said it. Okay.
18 A. Okay.
19 MR. MESEREAU: All right. Your Honor, at
20 this time we’d like to play the rebuttal video.
21 THE COURT: What is that. “Input 4”.
22 MR. SANGER: Yes. Your Honor, for the
23 record, it’s Exhibit 340.
24 THE COURT: Exhibit 340.
25 Ready.
26 I’d like one of those whistles just before I
27 make a ruling.
28 MR. SANGER: Tell me to queue it up, Your 1956
1 Honor.
2 Just for the record, I turned the sound off
3 on this so we wouldn’t....
4 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
5 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
6 jury.)
7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, you heard what your
8 mother just said, right.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And is it your belief your mother is lying.
11 A. Um, right there, not really, because I had a
12 pretty good relationship with him, you know, right
13 at the beginning.
14 Q. So you don’t think your mother is lying when
15 she makes that statement, correct.
16 A. Well, not really, because, I mean, he was
17 like really close to me in the beginning. I mean, I
18 guess, I thought I was close to him; you know what I
19 mean.
20 Q. Okay.
21 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
22 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
23 jury.)
24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Arvizo, when you made
25 those statements, were you lying.
26 A. Statements about the first night.
27 Q. What you just said, yes.
28 A. The sleeping arrangements. 1957
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. No, I wasn’t lying about that.
3 Q. Have you told any lies so far in this
4 rebuttal tape.
5 A. I don’t -- I remember I said something
6 that -- oh, yeah, because Michael told me in the
7 office, in his office, to ask my parents if I could
8 sleep in his room. So it wasn’t -- he told me to
9 ask in front of my parents.
10 Q. So are you saying this is a lie you just
11 told.
12 A. I’m just saying that -- about how I asked my
13 parents.
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. That’s a lie.
16 Q. That’s a lie.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. Is that the first lie you’ve told in
19 this rebuttal tape, as far as you can see.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay.
22 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
23 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
24 jury.)
25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Arvizo, you heard what
26 you just said. Is that a lie.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Was everything you said there truthful. 1958
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay.
3 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
4 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
5 jury.)
6 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Arvizo, you’ve heard
7 what your mother just said. Was it your belief that
8 she was lying.
9 A. There’s a part in there, like, that there
10 was no way to cure me. Dieter told us to say that.
11 Q. Okay. So that was not true.
12 A. Yeah, because they did do radiation and
13 chemotherapy.
14 Q. The truth was, you had needed radiation and
15 chemo to cure you, and what your mother said was a
16 lie, correct.
17 A. About there was no way to cure me, that
18 Michael was the only person that could cure me.
19 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
20 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
21 jury.)
22 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Arvizo, is what you
23 said there the truth.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Have you told any lies in this particular
26 segment.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Okay. 1959
1 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
2 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
3 jury.)
4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Gavin, is your mother
5 telling the truth.
6 A. Yes, because I remember -- I think Michael
7 did, like, a blood drive or something. Yeah, a lot
8 of my other friends were also helping, thank God,
9 because, I mean, it’s such a rare blood that I
10 needed.
11 Q. But is your mother telling the truth in the
12 statements she makes.
13 A. Yes. About Michael, yes.
14 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
15 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
16 jury.)
17 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Gavin, is your sister
18 telling the truth when she makes that statement.
19 A. Not really, because she was saying that --
20 well, she was saying that people were always turning
21 us away. And that’s not true, because, I mean,
22 Jamie Masada was helping us, Louise Palanker was
23 helping us, George Lopez was helping us. I’m pretty
24 sure -- I’m not too sure, but I’m pretty sure Dieter
25 told her to say that also, that no one else was
26 helping us but Michael.
27 Q. And Chris Tucker was helping you, correct.
28 A. Yes, Chris Tucker was helping us, yes. 1960
1 Q. Okay. And this is the rebuttal video that
2 you did before the meeting with the three social
3 workers, correct.
4 A. I don’t know. I’m pretty sure I did it
5 before the social workers.
6 Q. You went the next morning to interview with
7 the social workers, didn’t you.
8 A. I think I did.
9 Q. Okay. Let me ask you a question: You said
10 repeatedly in this trial that Mr. Jackson did not
11 inappropriately touch you until after this video was
12 done, correct.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And repeatedly in this video, you make
15 statements about what a wonderful person Mr. Jackson
16 is, right.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you remember telling Mr. Sneddon and the
19 sheriffs on one occasion that you were molested
20 before the video was done.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
23 you a transcript of that interview.
24 A. Yes. Please.
25 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
26 THE COURT: Yes.
27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
28 look at that transcript. 1961
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Does it refresh your recollection that
3 Mr. Sneddon was interviewing you about when these
4 acts of molestation allegedly occurred.
5 A. Yes. But the thing was, I don’t -- even to
6 this day, I don’t remember exactly when everything
7 happened exactly, so I mean --
8 Q. Well, do you remember being asked, “The acts
9 of molestation, had they already begun by the time
10 you did this video, do you know.” And you said, “I
11 think so.”
12 And then Mr. Sneddon said to you, “So, in
13 your mind, one of the things that you’re thinking
14 is, they’re doing this video that they want you guys
15 to do so that if you ever told them the truth about
16 being molested, nobody would believe you,” and you
17 say, “Yeah,” right.
18 A. Well, I --
19 Q. Do you remember saying that to Mr. Sneddon.
20 A. That’s more of my opinion - you know what I
21 mean. - right there. That last statement you just
22 said on that transcript, it’s more of my opinion
23 than a state of fact.
24 Q. Well, Mr. Sneddon asked you last week when
25 this inappropriate touching supposedly occurred, and
26 you said it was after the rebuttal video was made,
27 correct.
28 A. Yes. 1962
1 Q. But in an interview with Mr. Sneddon before
2 this trial ever began, you told him differently,
3 correct.
4 A. That’s what it says right there. But it
5 happened after.
6 Q. Did someone ever say to you, “You have to
7 say it happened after, because on the rebuttal video
8 you deny he’s ever done anything wrong”.
9 A. No. No one’s ever told me that.
10 Q. Then why does your story change.
11 A. I don’t know. It happened after. I mean --
12 Q. Well, at some point did you go to Mr.
13 Sneddon and say, “I’m changing my story about when
14 this inappropriate touching happened”.
15 A. No.
16 Q. At some point did you go to the sheriffs and
17 say, “I’m changing my story about when this
18 inappropriate touching happened”.
19 A. No.
20 Q. You just suddenly got on the stand and
21 changed it.
22 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your
23 Honor.
24 THE COURT: Sustained.
25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you ever had any
26 discussion at any time with Mr. Sneddon where you
27 used words to the effect, “I’m changing my story
28 about the time this molestation happened”. 1963
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. When Mr. Sneddon asked you questions
3 last week about when this molestation supposedly
4 occurred, was that the first time you said to Mr.
5 Sneddon it happened after the rebuttal video.
6 A. I don’t think so.
7 Q. You don’t think so.
8 A. I don’t think that was the first time I ever
9 told him that it happened after the rebuttal video.
10 Q. So are you saying that at different times
11 you gave Mr. Sneddon different accounts of when the
12 molestation supposedly happened.
13 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
14 object to that question. Assumes facts not in
15 evidence, and it’s argumentative and speculative.
16 THE COURT: Overruled.
17 Do you want the question read back.
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 (Record read.)
20 THE WITNESS: Sometimes I would talk to
21 Mr. Sneddon without having like an interview -- or,
22 like, have a recorder or something. And I would
23 talk -- like, Mr. Sneddon was being really nice to
24 me. Like he was helping me, and he was making me
25 feel better about what happened and stuff. So he’s
26 been really nice to me.
27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember telling
28 the Santa Barbara Grand Jury that after the Miami 1964
1 trip, your brother stayed in Michael’s room with you
2 every night until the last few days.
3 A. Yeah, he stood in my room -- he stood in the
4 room with me and Michael pretty much every day.
5 Some days he wouldn’t stay there.
6 Q. Do you remember telling the grand jury that
7 until the last few days, your brother Star stayed
8 with you in Michael’s room all the time.
9 A. He stood with us -- well, he -- the last --
10 the last week or two, or a few days, or something
11 like that, he didn’t. Well, because my brother
12 wasn’t there when it happened, so I’m pretty sure it
13 wasn’t -- he stopped staying there the last few
14 weeks.
15 Q. Do you remember telling the Santa Barbara
16 Grand Jury:
17 “Q. Was your brother staying in the room
18 with you during that time.
19 “A. Well, the last few times he didn’t, but
20 he was, like, when Michael was there -- when
21 Michael was there --
22 “Q. Uh-huh.
23 “A. -- he stood with me for all the time
24 when Michael was there. But, like, toward the
25 end, toward the last few days, he wasn’t staying
26 with me no more.”
27 Do you remember that.
28 A. Uh-huh. 1965
1 Q. And you’ve also told this jury that the two
2 times you claim Michael Jackson inappropriately
3 touched you Star wasn’t there, correct.
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. MESEREAU: We can continue.
6 MR. SANGER: Are you ready. Your Honor, we
7 need the....
8 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
9 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
10 jury.)
11 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you think your sister
12 is lying when she made those statements.
13 A. No. Because, I mean, people on the news
14 media were -- might have been saying something,
15 probably. I don’t know.
16 Q. So you think she’s telling the truth when
17 she says what she just said.
18 A. Probably. I mean, I looked at her, and
19 she’s crying and stuff, so....
20 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Go ahead.
21 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
22 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
23 jury.)
24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Is what your mother just
25 said correct.
26 A. No. Because we could have at any time stood
27 at my grandmother’s house. I mean, it’s not like --
28 Q. In your opinion, was your mother lying when 1966
1 she made that statement.
2 A. I remember hearing Dieter talk to her, so
3 I’m pretty sure Dieter told her to say that.
4 Q. Well, that --
5 A. We can stay at my grandmother’s house. We
6 could stay at one of our family members’ house; you
7 know what I mean. It’s not like we were spit on and
8 all this other stuff; you know what I mean.
9 Q. My question to you is, did your mother just
10 lie, in your opinion.
11 A. She’s saying what Dieter told her to say.
12 Q. Did she lie. Yes or no.
13 A. She -- well, only because --
14 MR. SNEDDON: Argumentative, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Overruled.
16 You may answer.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Go ahead.
19 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
20 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
21 jury.)
22 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You just heard your
23 sister’s statement; is that true.
24 A. A little bit of it is true.
25 Q. Did she lie in part of that.
26 A. I mean, because we would talk about girls at
27 times, and -- like all my friends that were females
28 and stuff like that. But I mean -- 1967
1 Q. You would talk with Michael Jackson about
2 your female friends.
3 A. Yeah. He would talk to me about girls and
4 how to, like, handle them; you know what I mean.
5 Like how to talk to a girl or something like that.
6 Q. So that statement’s true.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And anything else you just heard that’s not
9 true.
10 A. No, not really. No.
11 Q. Okay.
12 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
13 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
14 jury.)
15 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Was the statement you just
16 made true.
17 A. No. Because I didn’t really have a phone
18 number to call him.
19 Q. So were you lying.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. Was your mother lying also.
22 A. No, not really.
23 Q. Was she telling the truth.
24 A. Pretty much, yeah.
25 Q. After the Miami trip, were you able to call
26 Michael Jackson.
27 A. Michael would -- I was at Neverland.
28 Q. Were you able to call him after the Miami 1968
1 trip.
2 A. I would talk to him when he was at
3 Neverland. I mean, I didn’t really call him.
4 Q. Did you ever call him at Neverland on any
5 phone.
6 A. I don’t know. I don’t think I did.
7 Q. You don’t remember.
8 A. I don’t remember.
9 Q. Well, there were phones you could use to try
10 to call Michael Jackson when you were at Neverland,
11 correct.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Where were the phones.
14 A. All over the house and stuff.
15 Q. You tried to call him often, didn’t you.
16 A. Well, why would I try to call him if I could
17 just go and talk to him at Neverland.
18 Q. Well, it’s a large ranch, correct.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You used to spend time in the theater,
21 correct.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you ever try and call Michael Jackson
24 from the phone in the theater.
25 A. No. Because I would just go over in my
26 little cart to see Michael.
27 Q. Did you ever try to call Michael Jackson
28 from the guest quarters. 1969
1 A. No, because I had the code to his room and I
2 would go up there when he -- when he was there.
3 Q. Ever try calling him from the amusement
4 area.
5 A. No. There’s not really any phones out
6 there.
7 Q. Ever try calling him from the zoo area.
8 A. No.
9 Q. When you made this rebuttal video, you could
10 get in contact with him almost any time, couldn’t
11 you.
12 A. I could drive over to where he was in my
13 cart at Neverland, but never had a phone number if
14 he left or something.
15 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
16 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
17 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
18 jury.)
19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Is what your brother Star
20 just said true.
21 A. Yeah, Michael let us call him --
22 Q. Pardon me.
23 A. Yes, Michael let us call him “Daddy
24 Michael.”
25 Q. So what he said was correct.
26 A. Yes.
27 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
28 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s 1970
1 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
2 jury.)
3 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Was the statement you just
4 made the truth.
5 A. Yeah. Yes.
6 Q. Is what your mother just said the truth.
7 A. I guess. I mean, I don’t know if Michael
8 was trying to teach us that or --
9 A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: We can’t hear.
10 THE WITNESS: I don’t know if Michael was
11 trying to teach us that or something.
12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Well, did your mother tell
13 the truth, in your opinion.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you tell the truth, in your opinion.
16 A. Yeah, we’d go on rides and watch movies.
17 Q. How about the other things you said, are
18 they true.
19 A. Yes.
20 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
21 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
22 jury.)
23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Is what your mother just
24 said the truth.
25 A. I kind of stopped paying attention for a
26 while.
27 Q. Excuse me. Huh.
28 A. I started looking at the roof and stuff. I 1971
1 wasn’t really paying attention.
2 MR. MESEREAU: Can we replay that, Your
3 Honor.
4 MR. SNEDDON: Well, Judge, it would call for
5 speculation on his part anyhow.
6 MR. MESEREAU: I’m asking for his opinion.
7 THE COURT: I guess you’ll have to.
8 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
9 THE COURT: Can you do it without --
10 MR. MESEREAU: This may take a while, Your
11 Honor.
12 I think we’ll just go forward, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Do you want to just go forward.
14 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
15 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
16 jury.)
17 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: In your opinion, is your
18 mother telling the truth.
19 A. Yes, we felt as if he was closest to us as a
20 father and family.
21 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
22 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
23 jury.)
24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Were you telling the truth
25 when you made that statement.
26 A. What I just said right now.
27 Q. Yes.
28 A. Well, I didn’t pray to meet Michael Jackson 1972
1 when I was little.
2 Q. Did you pray to meet Michael Jackson at any
3 time.
4 A. No.
5 Q. You made a statement about Michael Jackson’s
6 charitable acts. Did you hear that.
7 A. Yeah. I knew he donated to charities. I
8 knew about that.
9 Q. Was the statement you made true.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You just heard your mother make some
12 comments.
13 A. Um --
14 Q. In your opinion, were they true comments.
15 A. I don’t really remember what she just said.
16 I’m sorry. I just --
17 Q. Well, your mother praises Michael Jackson
18 throughout this video, true.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is she telling the truth.
21 A. Some parts she is; some parts she isn’t.
22 Depends on what she’s praising him about.
23 Q. Did you and your mother discuss that you
24 were going to lie before you did this video.
25 A. No. Dieter discussed it with us.
26 Q. Did you discuss that you were going to tell
27 lies with your mother at any time before this video.
28 A. No. Dieter discussed it with us. 1973
1 Q. Did you discuss with your brother or sister
2 at any time that you were going to lie in this
3 video.
4 A. No.
5 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
6 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
7 jury.)
8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: In your opinion, did
9 Michael ever claim you and your brother and sister
10 as his kids.
11 A. Well, he would call me “son” if -- depends
12 what she was trying to say, but -- I don’t know.
13 Q. In your opinion, did Michael Jackson ever
14 claim that you, your brother and sister were his
15 kids.
16 A. What do you mean by “claim”. Like claim on
17 T.V., or claim on his taxes, or --
18 Q. You don’t know what I’m asking you.
19 A. Well, he said -- as I said, he called us --
20 he said that, like, if he would call me “son”
21 sometimes - you know what I mean. - if that’s what
22 she’s trying to say.
23 Q. Did you ever think you were part of Michael
24 Jackson’s family.
25 A. I felt as if I was his family.
26 Q. In your opinion, did your mother think she
27 was part of Michael Jackson’s family at one point.
28 A. What did my mom believe. 1974
1 Q. No, in your opinion, did your mother think
2 she was part of Michael Jackson’s family at one
3 point.
4 A. Um, I don’t know. That’s what she believes.
5 Q. Do you know whether she felt that way or
6 not.
7 A. No. I don’t know whether she --
8 Q. In your opinion, did either your brother or
9 your sister ever think they were part of Michael
10 Jackson’s family.
11 A. I know my brother did, because my brother
12 was sad by my biological father leaving, as I was.
13 And he felt that, as I did, about Michael being
14 close to us as if he was a father because we didn’t
15 have one.
16 Q. You were looking for a family, correct.
17 A. I wasn’t really, like, going out and
18 looking; you know what I mean. I was just -- came
19 across as Michael being the only older male that was
20 close to me in my life; you know what I mean.
21 Q. And you wanted to be part of the Jackson
22 family, correct.
23 A. Not really Jackson family. But just Michael
24 was there and he was like a father figure to me; you
25 know what I mean.
26 Q. You think of Paris and Prince as your
27 brother and sister.
28 A. Yeah, we would talk about it and stuff. I 1975
1 would always play with them, and I would teach them
2 stuff, and we would go look at stuff together and
3 stuff like that.
4 Q. And in your opinion, did Star and your
5 sister think of Paris and Prince as their brother
6 and sister.
7 A. I don’t know.
8 Q. But you did, right.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay.
11 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
12 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
13 jury.)
14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Is what you just said the
15 truth.
16 A. What I had said.
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is what your mom just said the truth.
20 A. Which -- I can’t -- she said what she said.
21 Q. Did you think of Michael Jackson, when you
22 made this video, as honest.
23 A. Not really, because he said that I can call
24 him at any time, and I didn’t really have the phone
25 numbers before that.
26 Q. So because of that, you thought he was
27 dishonest.
28 A. Yes. 1976
Subject: March 14, 2005 
Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:14 am
