1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And Neverland seems to run even when Michael
3 isn’t there, right.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Even when Michael is there, there are
6 periods where he seems to be off alone doing
7 whatever he’s doing, right.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When you said that he’s a detail person, you
10 weren’t trying to suggest that Michael spends 15
11 hours a day supervising everybody’s tasks, did you.
12 A. No.
13 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; argumentative.
14 THE COURT: Overruled. The answer was “No.”
15 Next question.
16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: In fact, most of the
17 discussion about what people are going to do on a
18 daily basis is not with Michael, right.
19 A. No.
20 Q. Now, once in a while, because he’s the
21 owner, he does directly tell someone his wishes,
22 right.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Because that’s where -- he lives there and
25 his family lives there, right.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. But most of the time, wouldn’t you discuss
28 your daily responsibilities and obligations with 2580
1 people other than Michael.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. Now, how many employees, would you
4 say, are assigned to the main house.
5 A. When I was there, nd when I left in
6 September, there was five.
7 Q. Okay. And during the many years that you’ve
8 worked at Neverland, do people’s responsibilities
9 typically remain or do people shift into other types
10 of jobs from time to time.
11 A. They shift from time to time.
12 Q. Now, have you shifted a little bit.
13 A. A little bit sometimes, yes.
14 Q. What kind of shifting have you done.
15 A. I helped with the kids a little bit. But
16 very little.
17 Q. Do you mean Michael’s children.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could you tell the jury their names.
20 A. Prince and Paris and Blanket.
21 Q. Okay. And their ages.
22 A. I think Prince is about eight, and Paris is
23 about seven. And the little one is two now, I
24 think.
25 Q. Okay. And what have your responsibilities
26 been with the three children.
27 A. Well, I would just watch them briefly, you
28 know, when the nanny was busy doing something. 2581
1 And -- you know, or take them out to the zoo. One
2 time I did, you know, so -- and watch Paris when she
3 was little for one night.
4 Q. Okay. The prosecutor for the government
5 asked you a question about children not staying in
6 their assigned rooms. Remember that.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you said something to the effect that
9 sometimes a child would have a room, I imagine in
10 the guest units, right.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you would see the bed not made, right.
13 A. Do you mean not used or not made.
14 Q. Pardon me, not made. Let me strike that.
15 Wrong choice of words.
16 You would sometimes come in and see a room
17 that just didn’t appear to be used, right.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And I think what the government prosecutor
20 was suggesting was the kids must have been somewhere
21 during the evening, right.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. But I’m curious. You also said that you
24 looked at Gavin’s room and it often was a mess,
25 right.
26 A. Toward the end, yes.
27 Q. Suggesting that Gavin was staying in the
28 room, right. 2582
1 A. I believe it was he and his brother that
2 were staying in there.
3 Q. And they made a real mess out of that room,
4 didn’t they.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Quite often, didn’t they.
7 A. Toward the end, yes.
8 Q. And they were known -- they had a reputation
9 at Neverland for having disciplinary issues with the
10 staff, didn’t they.
11 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. Calls for
12 hearsay and calls for a conclusion; improper
13 characterization of the evidence.
14 THE COURT: Overruled.
15 You may answer.
16 THE WITNESS: Not really with me. I mean,
17 Gavin was always respectful with me. Always. Star
18 could be a little bit ornery. And Davellin, we’d
19 talk every once in a while. But I never experienced
20 any problems.
21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: But you knew other
22 employees did, didn’t you.
23 A. Well, I knew that they were becoming
24 demanding, yeah, but I don’t really remember a
25 specific incident.
26 Q. Now, when you say you learned that they were
27 becoming demanding, could you tell the jury what you
28 mean. 2583
1 A. Well, every night we’d make dinner, and he
2 always wanted something other than what was made for
3 dinner.
4 Q. Who was this, now.
5 A. Star.
6 Q. Would make demands on you personally.
7 A. Yeah. They’d want certain kinds of foods
8 made at certain times. And usually it was chicken
9 noodle soup, which wasn’t that difficult, but --
10 Q. Would you get upset at those demands.
11 A. Honestly, I got irritated sometimes because
12 of the demand. There was so much to do. There was
13 so much to do, and I -- when the kids got a little
14 ornery, it was -- it was a lot. It really was. It
15 was -- and I felt like there was no respect.
16 Q. And they seemed to sort of get very spoiled
17 there at some point, didn’t they.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And weren’t there complaints about their
20 throwing candy.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. There were complaints about their throwing
23 objects from the amusement rides.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. There were complaints from other employees
26 that they were almost acting like they owned the
27 place.
28 A. I don’t remember that one, but I know that 2584
1 they were getting a little ornery.
2 Q. Do you remember their crashing carts.
3 A. All of them crashed the carts. I don’t
4 remember specifically if they did or not.
5 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, did you ever learn that
6 they were caught with adult material.
7 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: 403 ruling.
8 MR. MESEREAU: I think the Court said I
9 could ask.
10 THE COURT: Overruled.
11 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever learn that.
12 A. No, I don’t remember that.
13 Q. Did you ever learn that they were caught
14 masturbating in the unit.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay. Okay. You never had any discussion
17 with anyone about that.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. Okay. Do you recall learning that
20 they had driven off the property at one point into
21 town.
22 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection.
23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever hear about
24 that.
25 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; foundation.
26 THE COURT: Overruled.
27 You may answer.
28 THE WITNESS: I know that they left with 2585
1 Chris Carter one time.
2 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You don’t have any
3 knowledge of their going into town on their own, do
4 you.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay. Did you ever see the Arvizo family
7 riding around in a limousine.
8 A. I know that they were taken in the --
9 Mr. Jackson’s vehicles sometimes, so --
10 Q. And when you say “Mr. Jackson’s vehicles,”
11 please tell the jury what kind of vehicles you’re
12 talking about.
13 A. A lot.
14 Q. Okay. No, what -- describe the vehicles, if
15 you would.
16 A. Rolls Royces. I know that he owns a
17 limousine. There’s a black Navigator. So just
18 different cars.
19 Q. And it was -- was it your understanding that
20 these kids would demand that they be taken places in
21 those vehicles.
22 A. I didn’t know about that.
23 Q. Okay. Did you see their mother very much.
24 A. No, not that much. She pretty much stayed
25 in her guest unit.
26 Q. Did you ever see her walking on the
27 premises.
28 A. Not really, no. 2586
1 Q. Ever see her at the theater.
2 A. Can’t remember if I’ve seen her at the
3 theater or not.
4 Q. How about in the main house.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You’ve seen her in the main house a lot,
7 right.
8 A. Yeah, she would come in there and eat dinner
9 in there sometimes.
10 Q. And she’d be in there in the morning also,
11 wasn’t she.
12 A. Usually I wasn’t there that much in the
13 morning.
14 Q. Okay. Now, you’ve indicated, I think -
15 correct me if I’m wrong - that there were times you
16 cooked for the Arvizo family, right.
17 A. Did I cook for them. I don’t remember.
18 Q. Do you remember Star pulling a knife on you
19 in the kitchen.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Approximately when did Star pull a knife on
22 you in the kitchen.
23 A. Do you mean about what month it was.
24 Q. Month or year, if you remember.
25 A. Well, it was during that time period
26 between -- I want to say it’s, like, February. I
27 think.
28 Q. And when Star pulled a knife on you in the 2587
1 kitchen, were you preparing food.
2 A. I was doing the dishes.
3 Q. Okay. And was he trying to cook in the
4 kitchen.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That was against the rules, wasn’t it.
7 A. Well, it’s just not really wise to have a
8 child in there cooking with everybody, because it’s
9 kind of -- plus, you know, you’ve got things that
10 you have to do, so you have to work also.
11 Q. Uh-huh.
12 A. So --
13 Q. Now, the prosecutor for the government asked
14 you questions about where the key to the wine cellar
15 was supposed to be, right.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And I believe you indicated it was supposed
18 to be in a safe.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But you don’t know if there were periods of
21 time when it was out of that safe, do you.
22 A. No.
23 Q. Were you often in the wine cellar.
24 A. Not often, but I’ve been down there.
25 Q. Okay. And could you please describe for the
26 jury what the wine cellar looks like.
27 A. It’s kind of like a cave in some ways, I
28 want to say. It’s got rock walls. And it’s kind of 2588
1 like walking into, like, a basement or a cellar.
2 And it’s got a main room, and there used to be a
3 table in there. And they have -- there’s wine on
4 the wall. And there’s like another area with, like,
5 a little sink and a refrigerator and a freezer in
6 there, too. And there’s hard liquor in the cabinet
7 in the wine cellar where the kitchen is.
8 Q. Sometimes that wine cellar was open, wasn’t
9 it.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You found it open, didn’t you.
12 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; vague as to
13 time.
14 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: During the time you worked
17 at Neverland, you sometimes found that wine cellar
18 open, didn’t you.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, it wasn’t your responsibility to keep
21 it locked, was it.
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay. And isn’t alcohol kept in the
24 kitchen.
25 A. Yes. But on the wine cellar, it wasn’t our
26 responsibility to keep it locked. But when we left,
27 you know, we locked it. We didn’t leave it open, I
28 mean, if we went down there for a purpose. 2589
1 Q. But there certainly were many times, for
2 whatever reason you happened to be in that area, and
3 saw that it was open, right.
4 A. Yes. If you went down there and checked the
5 door, yeah.
6 Q. Yes. Okay. Were you at -- excuse me. Let
7 me rephrase that.
8 Were you working at Neverland during the
9 period of, say, February 1st, 2003, to March 12th,
10 2003.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were you working full time.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Were you going to college then.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And during that period of time how often
17 would you go to college.
18 A. I think it was three days a week.
19 Q. So would you be following the schedule that
20 you defined a little earlier in our questioning.
21 A. The radical schedule. Yeah, I would come in
22 later. I would come in late because that way I
23 could get my kids off to school and sleep a little
24 bit, too, so that way I could do the late shift
25 again.
26 Q. And it was a 45-minute drive into town to go
27 to school.
28 A. Uh-huh. 2590
1 Q. And a couple hours at school and then 45
2 minutes back, right.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. And then you would do your homework
5 during the schedule you talked about earlier, right.
6 A. Yeah, here and there.
7 Q. Okay. Okay. You have people at Neverland
8 who were in charge of security, right.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And about how many people are employed at
11 Neverland who are involved in security.
12 A. There used to be a lot more. But I don’t
13 know. Like when I left, I want to say like seven,
14 eight, something like that.
15 Q. Okay. Now, at one point you said that
16 towards the end of their stay at Neverland -- excuse
17 me, let me rephrase that.
18 Toward the end of the Arvizos’ stay at
19 Neverland, you noticed that Gavin and Star’s room
20 was consistently messy, right.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And that’s the room in the guest quarters,
23 right.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When you say “towards the end,” what do you
26 mean.
27 A. Before they didn’t come back, really.
28 Q. Would that have been, say, a week before 2591
1 they didn’t come back. Two weeks.
2 A. Two weeks probably.
3 Q. So approximately two weeks before the
4 Arvizos left for good, you noticed that Gavin and
5 Star’s room was consistently messy, right.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And that indicated to you that they were
8 staying in that room, right.
9 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; calls for a
10 conclusion.
11 THE COURT: Overruled.
12 You may answer.
13 THE WITNESS: I thought they were. But I
14 don’t know if they were or not.
15 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: But there was a period
16 where you would often not see their rooms a mess,
17 right.
18 A. Yes. I mean, they were sloppy. But towards
19 the end, their room was just -- things were broken
20 and it was -- it was a mess.
21 Q. Now, during this last couple of weeks that
22 they were at Neverland, when you say their room was
23 a mess, what did you do when you discovered this.
24 A. I was with Maria one time and -- when we
25 discovered it, and we decided to talk to the house
26 manager and let him know, because it was getting
27 really bad.
28 Q. And during those last two weeks that the 2592
1 Arvizos were at Neverland, what specifically did you
2 notice about Gavin and Star’s room.
3 A. That it was just torn apart.
4 Q. They really trashed it.
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Please tell the jury how they trashed it, if
7 you know.
8 A. I can’t say for sure what had happened, but
9 there was things spilled. There was glasses broken.
10 The refrigerator was a mess, too. Every unit has
11 its own refrigerator, and it was -- it just looked
12 like somebody had just gone in there like a tornado
13 and -- like a whirlwind.
14 Q. Did you ever talk to Gavin or Star about
15 that.
16 A. No, I don’t think I did.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. Because it wasn’t my place to.
19 Q. Was it your responsibility simply to clean
20 it.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you said you made a complaint to
23 somebody.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Who did you make a complaint to.
26 A. The house manager.
27 Q. And who was that.
28 A. Jesus Salas. 2593
1 Q. Okay. Did you tell Jesus Salas that they
2 had broken things in the guest unit.
3 A. Maria was with me, and I think he even came
4 in and saw the mess. I can’t remember for sure.
5 But I know that he -- somehow he knew about it.
6 Q. And was their bedroom a complete mess.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was the bed a mess.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What was broken.
11 A. There was some glasses in the rooms that
12 they have. Every room has a couple of glasses in
13 it, and some wine glasses and that kind of thing,
14 and the glasses were broken.
15 So I don’t remember which glass in specific
16 it was, but there was broken glass, and there was no
17 attempt to clean up the mess.
18 Q. Was anything else wrong with their room
19 during those last two weeks the Arvizos were at
20 Neverland.
21 A. Not anything else that I can think of. Just
22 about how -- how it was just -- there was no care as
23 to how the room was kept. It was like that.
24 Q. So the bed was a mess, right.
25 A. I remember -- if memory serves me correct,
26 yes.
27 Q. The chairs were a mess.
28 A. The furniture was moved, yes. 2594
1 Q. Was there garbage around.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Broken glass around.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did it look like furniture had been damaged
6 to you.
7 A. I don’t know if it had been damaged, but it
8 had been moved.
9 Q. Was there food around.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did it look like they’d spilled drinks
12 around.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How about the bathroom. Did they make a
15 mess out of the bathroom.
16 A. I think the door was shut.
17 Q. Okay. All right. Did you ever mention any
18 of this to their mother Janet.
19 A. No.
20 Q. All right.
21 A. It wasn’t my place.
22 Q. Okay. So you didn’t think it was your
23 responsibility to talk to them about this, right.
24 A. No.
25 Q. You just felt it was your responsibility to
26 clean it, and report it, right.
27 A. I just thought it might be good for somebody
28 to know what was happening. 2595
1 Q. Okay. And you didn’t ever directly report
2 this to Michael Jackson, right.
3 A. No.
4 Q. You just reported it to the person in the
5 chain of employment that you were supposed to report
6 to.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Did you discuss it with anyone else
9 besides Jesus Salas.
10 A. Maria.
11 Q. And who is Maria.
12 A. Maria Gomez, another housekeeper.
13 Q. And do you know if she did anything about
14 it.
15 A. Well, like I said, I think that it was she
16 and I together that went and told Jesus.
17 Q. Okay. Together you did that.
18 A. Yeah, I believe it was together, because I
19 remember being in the room with her also when -- I
20 think we went to go clean it together.
21 Q. Okay. Was your complaint an oral complaint,
22 or was it in writing.
23 A. No, it was verbal.
24 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, did Jesus Salas do
25 anything about it.
26 A. I don’t know what he did.
27 Q. Okay. Did you just make one complaint.
28 A. Yes. 2596
1 Q. All right. Now, I mentioned security at
2 Neverland. There was a lot of concern about
3 security at Neverland, wasn’t there.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You yourself, for example, were worried
6 about Michael Jackson’s fans, right.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You told the sheriffs you were worried about
9 his sicko fans coming onto the property and being a
10 threat to people, right.
11 A. Only some of them.
12 Q. Only some of them.
13 A. Yes. Not all fans are sicko.
14 Q. No, I didn’t mean that.
15 (Laughter.)
16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: But you were worried about
17 the fact that Mr. Jackson is so popular around the
18 world that, as you described it, sicko fans could
19 provide a security threat, right.
20 A. Well, yeah, there was one incident that
21 stood out in my mind about a fan that was quite
22 unstable, would seem to me. And people like that
23 don’t really make me feel comfortable.
24 Q. And did this person try to get on the
25 property.
26 A. Many of them have, yes. Actually, one of
27 them did. A couple of them did.
28 Q. And what happened. 2597
1 A. Well --
2 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’ll object as to
3 relevancy and time.
4 THE COURT: Sustained.
5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: The property at Neverland
6 is approximately 2800 acres, right.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You have fence around the property for the
9 most part, don’t you.
10 A. Split rail fence, I think it’s called.
11 Q. Split rail fences that actually a child
12 could almost get in and out if they wanted, right.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When you say “split rail,” you mean
15 essentially a wooden post and a couple of wooden
16 rails, right.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Adults or children typically could go in or
19 out if they wanted, right.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And very close to those split rail fences
22 are roads, right.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Roads where cars speed back and forth,
25 right.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. You’ve got houses on Figueroa Road right
28 across from Neverland, don’t you. 2598
1 A. A school is, yes.
2 Q. There’s a school. And the school isn’t far
3 from those split rail fences, is it.
4 A. No.
5 Q. And would it be fair to say that children at
6 Neverland could easily go through a fence onto a
7 road where cars are speeding.
8 A. Well, it’s a long ways from the main house,
9 but --
10 Q. It could happen, couldn’t it.
11 A. If you kept walking, yes.
12 Q. Are you aware of any moments when children
13 from the school tried to get into Neverland.
14 A. No, I’m not familiar with any of those.
15 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, do the security
16 people sort of travel around the perimeter of
17 Neverland once in a while, just to make sure
18 nobody’s on the property when they shouldn’t be.
19 A. Well, I know that they make perimeter
20 checks, and they would check around the property and
21 make sure that there’s no parked cars or that kind
22 of thing out on the property, and then go all
23 throughout the whole property, too.
24 Q. But typically when somebody enters
25 Neverland, they go to a closed gate, right.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And they stick their arm out of the car and
28 push a button, right. 2599
1 A. Oh, to get into the front gate.
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And they then hear, through an intercom, a
5 voice asking who they are, right.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And then if they’re permitted in, these
8 wooden gates open and they can drive in, right.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. But wouldn’t you agree that not too far away
11 from that entrance are those split rail fences.
12 A. Well, it’s right next to it, yes.
13 Q. And realistically, if children wanted to go
14 in or out, or run across the road or dart across the
15 road, there’s always a danger of that, isn’t there.
16 A. Yeah, if they wanted to get out from the
17 fence, they can. There’s no question of that.
18 Q. How many children go to the school across
19 the street, if you know.
20 A. I think a couple hundred.
21 Q. And has that school been there during the
22 time that you’ve worked at Neverland.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Do you remember Michael Jackson
25 having a blood drive at Neverland in approximately
26 December of 2002.
27 A. I remember there was a blood drive for
28 Gavin, but I don’t remember when. 2600
1 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just
2 show you a police report on that with a date.
3 A. Sure.
4 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Yes, you may.
6 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: May I see it, Counsel.
7 THE WITNESS: I think it was donated, but I
8 don’t remember right now. I probably guessed right
9 there, around about, but I can’t say for sure right
10 now.
11 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
12 Q. I have to ask you a few questions that I’m
13 required to ask.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. Have you had a chance to review that page of
16 the police report.
17 A. Yes, that section.
18 Q. And does it refresh your recollection about
19 when this blood drive may have occurred.
20 A. No, I’m sorry.
21 Q. Do you think it was 2002.
22 A. No, I don’t, because Gavin came back, and
23 when he came back, I hardly recognized him, because
24 he looked so much better. Because before, he was so
25 thin and so frail. So I joked around about that
26 with him, but I don’t think it was in December of
27 2002 when the blood drive was.
28 Q. When do you think it was, if -- if you know. 2601
1 A. I don’t remember. I really don’t.
2 Q. Were you involved in that blood drive.
3 A. No. They needed O negative blood, not AB.
4 I thought it was O negative.
5 Q. But your understanding was that Michael
6 Jackson had organized a blood drive for Gavin at
7 Neverland, right.
8 A. Yeah, he did.
9 Q. Were you involved in helping set that up.
10 A. No. I remember I had school at that time,
11 too, so I couldn’t be there for that.
12 Q. Were you there for any of that blood drive.
13 A. No.
14 Q. To your knowledge, were other employees at
15 Neverland participating in helping set up a blood
16 drive.
17 A. I don’t know if the employees did or not,
18 but, I mean, I’m sure they probably made food for
19 the people to eat, and the employees would have
20 helped that way, and set up the tent and got
21 utensils to eat and that kind of thing.
22 Q. So there was a tent set up for the blood
23 drive for Gavin.
24 A. I believe so, if I remember correctly. Not
25 that I saw it, but I heard.
26 THE COURT: Counsel, let’s take our break.
27 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor.
28 (Recess taken.) 2602
1 THE COURT: Counsel.
2 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor. Oops.
3 Thank you, Your Honor.
4 Q. Are you enjoying this.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. We’ll keep going, then.
7 All right. When you first started working
8 at Neverland, did you go through a training-type
9 program.
10 A. My supervisor trained me.
11 Q. And who was that.
12 A. Gayle Goforth.
13 Q. Okay. And what did the training consist of.
14 A. Just taking me around and showing me what my
15 duties would be.
16 Q. Okay.
17 BAILIFF CORTEZ: They can’t hear.
18 THE WITNESS: Is that better.
19 MR. MESEREAU: Pardon me.
20 BAILIFF CORTEZ: That’s fine.
21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. And has your job
22 changed during the time you were working at
23 Neverland.
24 A. Basically stayed the same.
25 Q. Okay. Did you go through any other training
26 programs while you were at Neverland.
27 A. We did CPR training.
28 Q. Okay. 2603
1 A. Otherwise not for the job, no, not that I
2 can think of.
3 Q. Okay. You were interviewed by the Santa
4 Barbara sheriffs a couple of times, right.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And they asked you if you were aware of the
7 Arvizos feeling that they were confined at Neverland
8 and couldn’t leave. Do you remember that
9 discussion.
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; hearsay.
12 THE COURT: I don’t remember that discussion.
13 You asked her, but -- I’ll sustain the objection.
14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you recall, in your
15 interview with the Santa Barbara Sheriffs,
16 discussing the question of whether or not the
17 Arvizos were free to leave Neverland.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. But you basically laughed at the idea,
20 didn’t you.
21 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. Calls for a
22 conclusion; no foundation
23 THE COURT: Argumentative. It’s sustained.
24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Didn’t you tell the
25 sheriffs, “How hard is it to leave. Just walk”.
26 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. It’s
27 argumentative; calls for a conclusion.
28 THE COURT: Overruled. 2604
1 You may answer. Do you want that question
2 read back.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, please.
4 (Record read.)
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, something along those
6 lines.
7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. And in your
8 opinion, the idea that they would be confined,
9 confined at Neverland, is ridiculous, right.
10 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. Argumentative;
11 calls for a conclusion; no foundation.
12 THE COURT: Sustained.
13 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: In your police interview,
14 or, excuse me, one of them -- actually, it’s the
15 sheriffs. In your sheriffs’ interview, you
16 described the Arvizo children as destructive, didn’t
17 you.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You were asked questions about Mr. Jackson’s
20 relationship with the Cascio family in your
21 sheriffs’ interview, right.
22 A. I can’t remember, but I’m sure you’ll tell
23 me if I did.
24 Q. And you indicated that Michael was a close
25 friend of the entire family, right.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Including the parents and the children, the
28 boys and the girl, right. 2605
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Now, the prosecutor for the
3 government asked you some questions about other
4 young boys, as he put it, that Mr. Jackson knew
5 through the years, right.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And would you agree that, like most people,
8 Mr. Jackson sometimes became a closer friend of some
9 families rather than others, correct.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the so-called “young boys” the
12 prosecutor referred to would come with their
13 families, correct.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In fact, Jimmy Safechuck was married at
16 Neverland, wasn’t he. Do you remember that.
17 A. I didn’t even know he was married.
18 Q. Okay. McCaulay Culkin’s family would come,
19 right.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did it seem -- let me rephrase that.
22 You’ve said that during the time you’ve
23 worked at Neverland, thousands of children have
24 visited, right.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. But certainly there are families that
27 Michael Jackson, in your opinion, was closer to --
28 A. Yes. 2606
1 Q. -- than others, right.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. There are friendships he’s developed through
4 the years which seem to have lasted for many years,
5 correct.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And like any other human being, some
8 families would visit periodically, rather than
9 others, right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. There would be many celebrity-type visitors
12 to Neverland from time to time, right.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You would see the Brandos.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who else would you see.
17 A. Elizabeth Taylor. Chris Tucker. I think
18 Chris Rock was there. I don’t know the names of the
19 basketball players.
20 Q. And did the people you just identified seem
21 to be close friends of Michael Jackson.
22 A. I wouldn’t -- as far as I could say, I don’t
23 think that all of them were close friends, but some
24 of them were, I think.
25 Q. And from time to time, there would be
26 various functions at Neverland, right.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And, for example, you would see tents put up 2607
1 for a special event, right.
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Please tell the jury what special events you
4 recall seeing at Neverland.
5 A. Weddings, birthday parties, that kind of
6 things.
7 Q. Would you get involved in those events.
8 A. Serving and cleaning, yes.
9 Q. Okay. Okay. Is that something you looked
10 forward to.
11 A. No. I still don’t.
12 Q. All right.
13 (Laughter.)
14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Would it typically vary
15 from month to month how many functions, as you
16 described, would take place.
17 A. Yes, it would vary.
18 Q. And sometimes you would have hundreds of
19 visitors for these functions, right.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And where would all these people park.
22 A. They would park down by the amusement park.
23 It depends on where the tent was set up. Or they
24 would park in front of the gates that are inside
25 Neverland with a big sign that says “Neverland” over
26 it. There’s a new parking lot there.
27 Q. And would you agree that most people who
28 visit Neverland like to walk through the main house, 2608
1 don’t they.
2 A. Walk through the main house.
3 Q. If they can.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. They like to see all the artwork and the
6 antiques and the way Michael Jackson has decorated
7 his home, correct.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And isn’t it typical that visitors will make
10 a request, “Can we see the main house.”
11 A. Sometimes they have, yes.
12 Q. And is it your understanding that quite
13 often Mr. Jackson will allow someone to take them
14 through.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. He allows that a lot, doesn’t he.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Sounds like you don’t think he should,
19 right.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you think he’s too nice to a lot of
22 people who visit Neverland.
23 A. Sometimes, yes, I -- sometimes I got a
24 little concerned, but it’s not my place.
25 Q. Okay. You thought he was being too generous
26 and nice to visitors, right.
27 A. Yes. And sometimes -- yes.
28 Q. Okay. When did you notice the Arvizo 2609
1 children becoming so destructive.
2 A. Towards the end of their stay, in the
3 beginning of 2003.
4 Q. The beginning of 2003.
5 A. Yeah, towards the end of their stay in the
6 beginning, 2003.
7 Q. Did you make any complaints other than the
8 one you just described.
9 A. Not that I can remember, no.
10 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, I was asking you a
11 question, and I think I got sidetracked a little
12 bit. It had to do with the availability of alcohol
13 in the kitchen. Remember that question.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And isn’t alcohol found in the kitchen from
16 time to time.
17 A. Yeah, I think by the sink to the left, there
18 was a cabinet that did have some alcohol in it.
19 Q. And that generally wasn’t locked, right.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Would you find alcohol once in a while in
22 the refrigerator unit, you know, with the
23 see-through glass.
24 A. Yes. We would put that in there.
25 Q. Going back to these functions that go on at
26 Neverland, sometimes Mr. Jackson isn’t even there,
27 right.
28 A. Yes, sometimes he’s not there. 2610
1 Q. So there will be a function for hundreds of
2 people, there will be a tent, there will be staff,
3 there will be food, there will be parking
4 privileges, and Mr. Jackson won’t even be at
5 Neverland, right.
6 A. Yeah, that’s right.
7 Q. Now, you never saw Mr. Jackson give alcohol
8 to a minor, did you.
9 A. No.
10 Q. And when you said that you saw three kids at
11 the table one time that you were concerned might be
12 intoxicated, you never saw Mr. Jackson give them
13 anything.
14 A. No.
15 Q. Now, are you aware -- excuse me. Let me
16 just limit this to a time period. Let’s say 2002,
17 2003. You were aware that Mr. Jackson had some
18 medical problems from time to time, correct.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you would see his doctor, for example,
21 come to Neverland once in a while, right.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you were aware that he needed
24 injections.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And he would, at times, have a reaction to
27 those injections; do you remember that.
28 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; foundation. 2611
1 THE COURT: Sustained.
2 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you said -- you used
3 the term “Pinnochio’s Pleasure Island” in response
4 to the government prosecutor. Were you suggesting
5 that you thought Michael Jackson himself should
6 supervise kids more personally.
7 A. No, I don’t think that he should. I mean,
8 how could he supervise that many children. There
9 needed to be more people to supervise them, or their
10 parents.
11 Q. So were you -- excuse me. Let me rephrase
12 it. Were you meaning to be a little more critical
13 of their parents when you talked about kids being
14 out of control.
15 A. Well, yes, that too. Because some kids --
16 I mean, well, some parents won’t discipline even
17 their own children, so sometimes the parents didn’t
18 even help. But I think it’s just sometimes the
19 character of the person, too, because some of them
20 were just crazy.
21 Q. Yeah. Did you ever voice your concerns that
22 parents should be paying more attention to their
23 kids at Neverland.
24 A. I might have, over the years, to some of my
25 co-workers. But I can’t think of anything right
26 now.
27 The thing that really worried me that I can
28 say that I thought about, too, is that there’s a 2612
1 lake there. And I worried more about the lake than
2 I did about the pool. If you leave these children
3 unsupervised, I mean, they could fall in the lake.
4 And that’s just always what concerned me more.
5 Q. And you would see lots of children that you
6 thought should be better supervised at Neverland
7 during periods when Michael wasn’t even there,
8 right.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And your understanding was he had allowed
11 people to bring children to Neverland, enjoy the
12 premises, and when he wasn’t even around, right.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When that would happen, was it your
15 understanding that Mr. Jackson was relying on the
16 Neverland personnel to try and supervise or keep
17 control.
18 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. Foundation.
19 Personal knowledge as to what Mr. Jackson knew.
20 THE COURT: Overruled.
21 You may answer.
22 THE WITNESS: I’m sorry, could you say that
23 again.
24 MR. MESEREAU: Yes.
25 Q. When large numbers of children would visit
26 Neverland with whoever came with them --
27 A. Uh-huh.
28 Q. -- and Mr. Jackson was not there, was it 2613
1 your understanding that Neverland staff or employees
2 were supposed to supervise.
3 A. Yes, to some degree. And sometimes there
4 was some children that got really out of control.
5 Like, for instance, I think sometimes we would put
6 the golf carts away or put the quads away, because
7 some of them just -- they would probably have been a
8 danger to themselves. So in that way, we did take a
9 little bit more authority, probably, than we should
10 have sometimes, but --
11 Q. When you say you would take authority, do
12 you mean that you would sort of, in your mind,
13 substitute for a parent almost.
14 A. Yeah. Sometimes, I think, yes.
15 Q. And are you talking about situations where,
16 say, a lot of kids would come on buses, say, from
17 the inner city, and in your opinion there would be
18 too few adults taking care of them.
19 A. Typically those seemed to be better
20 supervised than the kids that were left at Neverland
21 without their parents.
22 Q. Right.
23 A. Because if Mr. Jackson wasn’t there and
24 their parents weren’t there, it kind of would fall
25 on us, and --
26 Q. Okay. Were there rules and procedures in
27 effect at Neverland.
28 A. Somewhat, yes. 2614
1 Q. And were they written up, to your knowledge.
2 A. As far as -- well, there was an employee
3 handbook.
4 Q. And to your knowledge, did the employee
5 handbook discuss what to do in situations where you
6 had visitors.
7 A. I can’t remember. Sorry.
8 Q. When is the last time you looked at that
9 handbook.
10 A. Probably ‘92, ‘93.
11 Q. Okay. That was quite a while ago. All
12 right.
13 Now, in your interviews with the Santa
14 Barbara Sheriffs, you often described Mr. Jackson as
15 acting like a big kid.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But he seemed to enjoy playing with kids,
18 right.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. He seemed to enjoy the whole spirit of
21 Neverland being to have fun with kids, right.
22 A. Yes, the whole thing of eating too much
23 candy and riding the rides to get sick.
24 Q. Did you see Mr. Jackson do that.
25 A. No, I’m not saying that he did that, but I’m
26 saying that’s the idea.
27 Q. Did you see Mr. Jackson eat a lot of candy.
28 A. Sometimes. 2615
1 Q. How about on the rides.
2 A. No, I didn’t see that.
3 Q. When did you last work at Neverland.
4 A. September of 2003.
5 Q. Okay. So you worked for, what, 12 years or
6 so.
7 A. Off and on, yeah.
8 Q. Off and on.
9 A. Off and on.
10 Q. Okay. You never saw the Arvizo kids look
11 like they were intoxicated, did you.
12 A. No. I don’t remember them specifically
13 being intoxicated. I don’t.
14 Q. You don’t remember you looking at their
15 behavior and saying to yourself, “They look
16 intoxicated to me,” right.
17 A. Yeah, no, they --
18 Q. That never happened, right.
19 A. No, I didn’t really ever pay attention.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. So I don’t know.
22 Q. But just based on the times you were there,
23 and the work you did and what you saw, you don’t
24 recall ever seeing Gavin Arvizo, Star Arvizo, or
25 Davellin Arvizo intoxicated, right.
26 A. Well, like when Star put the knife in my
27 back, I mean, was he intoxicated. I don’t know.
28 Was he just playing around. I don’t know. So -- 2616
1 Q. Let me just rephrase it, then.
2 To the best of your knowledge, during the
3 time you observed the Arvizo children at Neverland,
4 you never thought they were intoxicated, right.
5 A. I didn’t think so, no.
6 Q. Okay. Did you ever, in your mind, smell
7 alcohol on the Arvizo kids.
8 A. No. I never paid attention.
9 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned a party in August
10 of 2003, right.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And that had something to do with Schaffel,
13 right.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was it your understanding that Schaffel
16 hired special staff for that party.
17 A. I knew that he was doing something with it.
18 If he hired somebody, I don’t remember. But I know
19 that there was a lot of volunteers working there.
20 Q. People that normally didn’t work at
21 Neverland.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. And was it your understanding that
24 Schaffel was trying to promote a particular artist.
25 A. I don’t know that.
26 Q. You don’t know what the purpose of the party
27 was, right.
28 A. It was a birthday party, and I didn’t quite 2617
1 ever figure it out.
2 Q. Okay. You don’t know if Schaffel, for
3 example, was promoting tickets on radio stations in
4 Los Angeles, do you.
5 A. No. But I remember a radio station being
6 there, I think, yeah. But I don’t know what the
7 whole purpose was.
8 Q. Was it a Los Angeles radio station, if you
9 know.
10 A. I can’t remember.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. I think it was, though, when I think back.
13 I want to say it was KISS FM, but I’m not sure.
14 Q. Was it your understanding that more people
15 showed for that party than the staff at Neverland
16 anticipated.
17 A. Yes. That was typical.
18 Q. Typical of parties.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, when you’re planning a party -- excuse
21 me, let me rephrase that.
22 When a party is going to take place at
23 Neverland, how does the word get out to the staff.
24 A. It depends on how big it is or if there’s
25 going to be a caterer. I mean, there’s -- there’s
26 different ways that we would find out.
27 Q. Is a memorandum, for example, a memo --
28 A. Yes. 2618
1 Q. -- typically generated.
2 A. Not -- I don’t want to say “typically,” but
3 it has been, or else it was communicated verbally
4 from a supervisor.
5 Q. And would a supervisor typically come to
6 someone like you and say there’s going to be a big
7 event on such and such a date at such and such a
8 time.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And would you be asked to contribute in some
11 way.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And were your jobs at these events typically
14 the same or did you have different things to do,
15 depending on the event.
16 A. Cleaning and serving.
17 Q. Okay. And where would all the food
18 typically be cooked.
19 A. It depends on if there was a caterer or not.
20 Sometimes it could be done at the barbecue area.
21 Sometimes in the kitchen. Or if there’s a caterer,
22 they could cook it outside. Or there was a barbecue
23 out by the theater. So there was different places.
24 Q. Do you remember, in February of 2003, a
25 number of entertainment executives from New York
26 visited Neverland.
27 A. Oh, guy, I remember there was some special
28 guests, but I don’t remember who. 2619
1 Q. Do you remember Ed Bradley from --
2 A. 60 Minutes.
3 Q. Yeah.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You do remember him coming.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know approximately when that was.
8 A. No. I can’t say. I think it was after the
9 documentary aired.
10 Q. Do you know if the Arvizos were visiting at
11 that point in time.
12 A. I think they were.
13 My stomach’s growling. I’m sorry.
14 (Laughter.)
15 JUROR NO. 8: Do you want some candy. Do
16 you want some.
17 THE WITNESS: I have some. Thank you.
18 BAILIFF NARRON: You can’t do that, ma’am.
19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you speak to Mr.
20 Bradley.
21 A. No, I don’t think he spoke directly to me.
22 Q. Okay. Do you remember who he was with.
23 A. Other camera people. The crew. I think
24 there was some other -- somebody else from
25 60 Minutes that was there, too.
26 Q. Did you ever meet a Mr. Jack Sussman, for
27 example.
28 A. I can’t remember. 2620
1 Q. Okay. Did you see Mr. Bradley walking
2 around the property.
3 A. I remember him being in the kitchen. And I
4 remember serving him lunch or setting out the food,
5 a buffet for them.
6 Q. And where was the buffet.
7 A. In the kitchen, on the -- what do you call
8 it. A bar.
9 Q. So Mr. Bradley and whoever he was with were
10 in the main house, right.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you don’t know what time of day they
13 were in there, do you.
14 A. No, but I want to say it was 11:00, 12
15 o’clock, something like that, 1:00.
16 Q. Okay. And one of your responsibilities was
17 to prepare a meal for them.
18 A. No, I didn’t have to cook it. I would just
19 have to help serve it and -- yeah.
20 Q. And were they eating at the main dining
21 table.
22 A. Um, I think -- I know they ate in the
23 kitchen. And they might have eaten at the dining
24 table also, but I don’t remember.
25 Q. Okay. Do you recall Gavin and Star Arvizo
26 visiting Neverland with their father David.
27 A. You know, in the back of my mind, I do. But
28 I don’t remember anything specific about them being 2621
1 there.
2 Q. Okay. Do you have more of a memory of their
3 being there with their mother.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And your memory of the Arvizo children being
6 at Neverland with their mother is in primarily 2003;
7 is that right.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you recall if you observed Janet Arvizo
10 supervising her children while they were staying at
11 Neverland.
12 A. What do you mean by “supervising”.
13 Q. Well, do you recall if Janet was -- appeared
14 to be keeping tabs on her children at Neverland.
15 A. She stayed in her room a lot.
16 Q. But you said you would see her in the main
17 house, right.
18 A. Yeah, when she went to go eat, or pick up
19 her clothes from the laundry room, or --
20 Q. Would you see her in the main house with her
21 children.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you see her in the main house with her
24 children often.
25 A. In the evenings she would mostly be there.
26 Q. In the main house.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Okay. And what would you see Janet Arvizo 2622
1 doing in the main house in the evenings at Neverland
2 during 2003.
3 A. Eating dinner. Sitting with the kids.
4 Playing a game that was on the counter in the
5 kitchen. Just being with the kids.
6 Q. As best you can recall, would you see her
7 spend hours in the main house at night.
8 A. I don’t want to say “hours,” but she’d
9 probably spend a couple hours there. I was always
10 so busy working, I didn’t really pay attention to
11 what really the guests were doing.
12 Q. Did Janet Arvizo, in your opinion, tend to
13 have her evening meal in the main house.
14 A. As far as I can remember, yes, is what I
15 would say, yes.
16 Q. And would she typically eat with her
17 children.
18 A. I don’t want to say typically eat with them,
19 because they might eat at different times.
20 Q. But I guess what you’re saying is, you
21 served her quite often, didn’t you.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, in the main house, when a guest comes
24 to eat, there often is a menu on a blackboard,
25 right.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And the menu will say what’s being served
28 that day, right. 2623
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And it could be breakfast, lunch or dinner,
3 right.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And was it your understanding that Janet
6 Arvizo would decide each day what type of food she
7 wanted.
8 A. Well, if it wasn’t written on the
9 blackboard, you know, the chefs or we would tell
10 them what we had for dinner that night.
11 Q. And while the Arvizos were there, they would
12 essentially give you their order, right.
13 A. Yes, I remember taking the order from the
14 Arvizo kids at the dining room table. More often
15 than not, they would eat in there. For a while,
16 anyway.
17 Q. When you saw the Arvizo kids eating with
18 their mother, was there often anyone else at the
19 dining -- excuse me. Let me rephrase that.
20 When you would observe the Arvizo children
21 eating with their mother in the main dining room,
22 did you often see Michael there.
23 A. No, not typically.
24 Q. Would you typically see someone else having
25 dinner with them.
26 A. With the Arvizo kids.
27 Q. Yes.
28 A. Well, the Cascio kids were there for a while 2624
1 when the Arvizos were there, and they would all eat
2 dinner at the dining room table. And Gavin’s mom
3 wouldn’t be at the dinner table, and neither would
4 Mr. Jackson, for a while there.
5 Q. And where would you -- excuse me. Where
6 would Janet Arvizo typically eat if she wasn’t at
7 the dining room table.
8 A. At the table in the kitchen area, or like at
9 the bar.
10 Q. Would you please describe for the jury what
11 you mean by “the bar” area.
12 A. It’s just a place where you have like
13 barstools, where you have the long counter, and
14 there’s just barstools sitting there. And it has an
15 arch with bricks over it, and it’s right there by
16 the kitchen.
17 Q. That bar area is not far from the main
18 dining room, right.
19 A. No, it’s not too far.
20 Q. And typically if you go there any time of
21 day, you see some seats at the bar area, right.
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. And 24 hours a day, you’ll see glass dishes
24 with various buns and --
25 A. Oh, yeah.
26 Q. -- doughnuts that were made for the day,
27 right.
28 A. Yes. 2625
1 Q. And Mr. Jackson lets people go in there
2 anytime and pick up a doughnut and take it with
3 them, right.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that refrigerator area is typically
6 open, right.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Guests can walk in there and get juice or
9 water or whatever they want to, right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you would see Janet in that bar area
12 quite often; is that correct.
13 A. Yeah, that’s where I remember her eating,
14 would be there.
15 Q. Would she sometimes eat before her children
16 ate in the main dining room.
17 A. I can’t say if it was before or after. But
18 for a while there, she wasn’t eating with them.
19 Q. But you also saw her eat with them from time
20 to time, didn’t you.
21 A. Yes, she had, too. I think that the reason
22 why they were eating in the dining room, the kids,
23 was because the Cascio kids were with them, and they
24 were the ones that were eating in the dining room.
25 But later on, she would eat in the breakfast -- or
26 the breakfast nook or the bar with her kids.
27 Q. When you say “breakfast nook,” would you see
28 Janet eating breakfast in the main house. 2626
1 A. I really didn’t --
2 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’m going to object as
3 cumulative. Relevancy.
4 THE COURT: She already said she didn’t work
5 in the mornings. Next question.
6 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
7 Q. Would it be accurate to say that Mr. Jackson
8 seemed a lot closer to the Cascio children than the
9 Arvizo children.
10 A. He’s known them a lot longer, I think, so I
11 think that he’s formed more of a bonded relationship
12 with them.
13 Q. Did it appear that when the Cascio children
14 were at Neverland and the Arvizo children were at
15 Neverland, that Michael Jackson would spend more
16 time with the Cascio children than the Arvizo
17 children.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You indicated you remember the Cascio
20 children having food in Michael Jackson’s bedroom,
21 right.
22 A. If that’s what it was, yes.
23 Q. And when you say “bedroom,” you’re talking
24 about this part of the house that has two levels,
25 right.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. You go through a door and there’s a bottom
28 level -- 2627
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. -- right.
3 And then you can go up the stairs to an
4 upstairs level, right.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you’ve seen the Cascio children on both
7 levels, right.
8 A. Well, the only other time that I’ve really
9 been in his bedroom is when he wasn’t home, to help
10 move furniture or to put something in his room.
11 So I was only upstairs in his bedroom that
12 one time when the Cascio kids were there when I was
13 serving dinner, and that was the only time.
14 Q. And to your knowledge, they visited
15 Neverland for years, right.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. They’ve been visiting Neverland since you
18 first started work, right.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you know the father, Dominick.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Have you seen him there often.
23 A. Yes. Not as much as the children, but he
24 was there often.
25 Q. Did you meet with any prosecutor to talk
26 about what you were going to say today.
27 A. I spoke with them about coming here, yes.
28 Q. And when was that. 2628
1 A. Yesterday.
2 Q. Who did you speak with.
3 A. Mr. Auchincloss.
4 Q. Was it by phone.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you have a meeting with him.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And where did the meeting take place.
9 A. At my house.
10 Q. Okay. And did Mr. Auchincloss come to your
11 house.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you have a meeting with him.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How long was the meeting.
16 A. An hour or two. Two hours.
17 Q. Was anyone else there.
18 A. Detective Alvarez.
19 Q. Okay. Did Mr. Auchincloss give you anything
20 to read.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you talk about what you’d be asked
23 today.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And did he tell you what questions he was
26 going to ask.
27 A. Just kind of gave me a guideline about where
28 everything was going to go. 2629
1 Q. Did you discuss with him what your responses
2 to the questions might be.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did Mr. Auchincloss give you any
5 suggestions --
6 A. No.
7 Q. -- about how to phrase things or anything
8 like that.
9 A. No, no, no, no.
10 Q. So he would ask you questions and you would
11 just tell him what your answer was, right.
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. And it went an hour or two.
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Okay. How many meetings have you had with
16 Mr. Auchincloss.
17 A. Two.
18 Q. And when was the first meeting, other than
19 the one you just described.
20 A. Probably around January.
21 Q. Okay. And where did that take place.
22 A. My house.
23 Q. How long did that meeting last.
24 A. Two hours.
25 Q. Okay. Did Mr. Auchincloss give you anything
26 to read.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Have you ever been sent anything to read 2630
1 about this case from either the sheriffs or the
2 prosecution.
3 A. No. I think that I -- I don’t know if I saw
4 a copy of my testimony or something. I think I saw
5 that.
6 Q. Did you. Okay.
7 A. I think.
8 Q. Do you know where you got that. Did
9 somebody give it to you.
10 A. No, nobody gave it to me. I just saw it.
11 Q. Okay. We’re almost there.
12 A. Okay. Thanks.
13 THE COURT: From now on, on your subpoenas,
14 I want you to put “Bring an energy bar.”
15 (Laughter.)
16 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. All right. I think
17 we’re done.
18 THE WITNESS: Okay, great.
19 MR. MESEREAU: Just one second, if I can.
20 I’m going to backtrack for a second.
21 May I, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Go ahead.
23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Where is the ranch house.
24 A. Probably like a half a mile or a mile away
25 from the main house.
26 Q. And please describe for the jury what the
27 ranch house looks like.
28 A. It’s just an older home that I think was 2631
1 there before the main house was built. And it’s --
2 it has two bedrooms, and two bathrooms, and a living
3 room.
4 Q. And do guests sometimes stay at the ranch
5 house.
6 A. Certain guests, yes.
7 Q. Do employees sometimes stay at the ranch
8 house.
9 A. Yes, they have.
10 Q. You don’t often see Mr. Jackson at the ranch
11 house, do you.
12 A. No. He’s been there, but he doesn’t really
13 stay there.
14 Q. Did you ever see the Arvizos there.
15 A. Not that I can remember.
16 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Thank you.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay.
18 THE COURT: Counsel.
19
20 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS:
22 Q. Miss Fournier, did you ever deliver food to
23 Mr. Jackson at the ranch house.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. On how many occasions.
26 A. Well, I don’t know if he was there. I know
27 that Joey was there, and he called to get some food
28 to be delivered to the ranch house. 2632
1 Q. Okay. Did you take the call.
2 A. I don’t remember if I took the call or not,
3 but -- or somebody told me, but I brought the basket
4 of food down there.
5 Q. Do you know -- what were your instructions
6 as far as this basket of food goes.
7 A. To take some munchies down to the ranch
8 house.
9 Q. On that day that you took some munchies to
10 the ranch house, did you see Mr. Jackson in the
11 presence of children after that period.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did any of those children appear to be
14 intoxicated.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you remember which -- what their names
17 were.
18 A. I think Joey was there at the table.
19 Q. What’s -- do you know Joey’s last name.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. And there was -- I don’t remember their
23 names right now.
24 Q. Okay. Were any of these children local
25 children from the local community.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Do you know what town they’re from.
28 A. I think Los Olivos. 2633
1 Q. Do you remember any of their names.
2 A. I can’t think of any of them right now.
3 Q. All right. You talked about the fact that
4 there were certain -- there was a certain amount of
5 excess at Neverland with children.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How long did that go on during your period
8 of employment. How long was it that you felt that
9 children were allowed -- didn’t have boundaries.
10 A. Well, the first day that I got there, there
11 was silly string all over the inside of the house,
12 so I don’t know if you would consider that, but --
13 no boundaries, but just something like that.
14 Q. Have you ever seen Mr. Jackson intoxicated.
15 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; foundation.
16 THE COURT: Overruled.
17 You may answer.
18 THE WITNESS: I don’t know if he was
19 intoxicated or he was under a doctor’s orders taking
20 medication. I don’t know.
21 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: All right. My question
22 goes to intoxicated by any substance, regardless of
23 what. Did he ever appear to be under the influence
24 of some substance.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Did you ever see him where he appeared
27 intoxicated in the presence of children who appeared
28 intoxicated. 2634
1 A. I can’t say for sure on that one.
2 Q. If you have an opinion, I’d like to know it.
3 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; asked and
4 answered.
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: You said you can’t say
7 for sure. Why is that.
8 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; asked and
9 answered.
10 THE COURT: Overruled.
11 You may answer that.
12 THE WITNESS: Well, that one time at the
13 table, I remember him appearing like he might be
14 intoxicated when I was serving.
15 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: All right. When the
16 other children were also intoxicated.
17 A. I believe some of them were, yes.
18 Q. Yes. The three children that you mentioned.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did Janet Arvizo ever have food delivered in
21 her room.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. When the Cascio children were there, did
24 they spend time with the Arvizo children.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Would the Cascio and Arvizo children spend
27 time together with the defendant.
28 A. Yes. 2635
1 Q. Do you believe that Neverland is a healthy
2 place for children.
3 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; improper opinion.
4 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Based on every -- well, I
5 can finish the question, add a little to the
6 question.
7 THE COURT: You may finish your question.
8 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: All right.
9 Q. Based on everything you’ve seen there --
10 you’ve talked somewhat extensively on cross and
11 direct about these boundaries, and about children
12 misbehaving, and authority, that kind of thing.
13 Based on everything you’ve seen and know
14 about Neverland during your period of employment
15 there, do you believe this is a healthy place for
16 children, healthy environment.
17 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Improper opinion;
18 no foundation; relevance; 352.
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Would you allow your
21 own children to stay at Neverland.
22 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Relevance;
23 improper opinion; 352; foundation.
24 THE COURT: Relevance; sustained.
25 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: How far is it from the
26 main gate of Neverland to the main residence.
27 A. I’m really bad on distances, but a mile,
28 mile and a half maybe. 2636
1 Q. And how far is it from the main gate to the
2 nearest town.
3 A. Five miles.
4 Q. You mentioned that there were visitors that
5 Mr. Jackson would invite into his house, and that
6 was somewhat common; is that fair to say.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Would he invite these visitors who
9 came into the house, typically would he invite them
10 into his bedroom suite.
11 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; foundation.
12 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: If you know.
13 THE COURT: All right. Answer “yes” or “no”
14 if you know whether or not visitors were invited.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: You do know.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Would they spend time in his bedroom suite.
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Foundation; 1108.
21 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: That’s fine. I’ll move
22 on.
23 THE COURT: I’ll overrule the objection and
24 limit the questions in that area based on your
25 objection.
26 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Okay.
27 Q. You can go ahead and answer that question.
28 THE COURT: She did. 2637
1 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Thank you.
2 THE COURT: The answer was “Yes.”
3 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: You mentioned the
4 phrase “wild boys.” Can you tell me what you mean
5 by that.
6 A. When the children were unsupervised, they
7 frequently became wild.
8 Q. And this supervision issue or the fact that
9 children would become problematic in their behavior,
10 was that known to Mr. Jackson based upon -- well,
11 let me back up.
12 Did the children’s misbehavior occur in
13 Mr. Jackson’s presence.
14 A. No.
15 Q. Was he aware that they would destroy things
16 at Neverland.
17 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; calls for
18 speculation.
19 THE COURT: Foundation; sustained.
20 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Do you know if Mr.
21 Jackson was made aware of the destruction of golf
22 carts, things of that nature, at Neverland.
23 A. Sometimes I think he was, because he would
24 notice that things were broken or things were
25 missing. So sometimes, yes.
26 Q. The families of -- you mentioned on
27 cross-examination that the list of boys who were
28 special friends of Mr. Jackson, you said that their 2638
1 families would stay at Neverland; is that true.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Would any of those children on that list
4 stay at Neverland by themselves, without their
5 families.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you recall which ones.
8 A. Brett Barnes did. Elijah did. Little
9 Michael did. Is that enough.
10 Q. Well, I can just -- I can make this simple.
11 I can go down the list. Frank Cascio.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How about his brother Aldo.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. McCaulay Culkin.
16 A. Well, as an adult he was there alone. But
17 when he was a child, I pretty much remember his
18 parents being there when I was there.
19 Q. Brett Barnes.
20 A. He would come alone sometimes.
21 Q. Elijah.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Gavin.
24 A. I remember Gavin always having his mom.
25 Q. Okay. How about the Los Olivos boys that
26 you’ve talked about.
27 A. They would be there without their parents.
28 Q. Jimmy Safechuck. 2639
1 A. I think he did come a couple times without
2 his parents.
3 Q. Wade Robison.
4 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; 1108.
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I believe it’s a follow-up
7 to counsel’s question. But I’ll move on.
8 Q. You said that you had a conversation with
9 Frank about being an employee.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did he tell you who he was an employee of.
12 A. No. I just assumed it was Mr. Jackson.
13 Q. Was he working at Neverland Ranch at the
14 time.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What time period was this.
17 A. I don’t remember. I’m sorry.
18 Q. Okay. Do you know if it was in the 2003 --
19 the year 2003.
20 A. No, it was before that. I want to say about
21 like 2001 or 2002.
22 Q. You said that Frank and Vinnie had desks set
23 up in the video library.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When was that.
26 A. Oh, boy, I don’t remember. I don’t
27 remember.
28 Q. But it was the period of time -- do you know 2640
1 if it was the period of time when the Arvizos were
2 there.
3 A. Well, the desks were up there then, yes.
4 Q. Do you know if Frank and Vinnie were working
5 at those desks during the period of time that the
6 Arvizos were there.
7 A. I believe so, yes.
8 Q. Do you know who Frank was working for at
9 that time.
10 A. Like I said, I assume it was Mr. Jackson.
11 Q. You said that busloads of kids would come to
12 visit Mr. Jackson at Neverland, or visit Neverland,
13 I should say.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was Mr. Jackson there typically, when the
16 busloads of kids would be there.
17 A. Not typically, but sometimes he was.
18 Q. Would those children spend the night.
19 A. Not the busloads of kids, no.
20 Q. Okay. So was there a difference between the
21 kids that would be guests and children who would
22 just come up in a busload.
23 A. Somewhat, yes.
24 Q. Was there a difference in the behavior of
25 the children who were guests of Mr. Jackson than the
26 behavior of the kids in the busloads.
27 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; vague.
28 THE COURT: Sustained. 2641
Subject: March 17, 2005 
Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:39 pm
