1 THE COURT: Well, now the time to object to
2 the question is long gone, but I’ll sustain the
3 objection to the last part of the answer.
4 Next question.
5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you work with someone
6 named Grace at the blood drive for Gavin?
7 A. No, I didn’t work there. All I had done was
8 ask Grace if she could ask permission, because like,
9 remember, that’s another indicator that I didn’t
10 talk to Michael himself.
11 MR. ZONEN: Objection; nonresponsive.
12 THE COURT: Sustained.
13 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember
14 complaining to the sheriffs in an interview about
15 Michael Jackson, “Here’s a man that has so much
16 wealth, and yet did not even hire my children a
17 single tutor when they’re supposed to be in school.”
18 Do you remember complaining about that?
19 A. I didn’t complain to him. I was trying to
20 point out to the police that these were the things
21 that now I’m aware of that he really didn’t care
22 about children. He just cared about what he was
23 doing with the children.
24 Q. Do you remember saying that to the sheriffs?
25 A. Like I said, I gave him information.
26 Everything possible that I could possibly do to let
27 them know that the children -- all this time had
28 passed, and they were not educated. 6662
1 Q. Now, how much time are we talking about
2 where you think Michael Jackson should have hired a
3 tutor for your kids?
4 A. No, I don’t think he should have tutored --
5 hired a tutor. I think -- I think he should have
6 just let me and my kids go.
7 Q. When you said to the sheriffs, “Here’s a man
8 who has so much wealth, and yet did not even hire my
9 children a single tutor when they’re supposed to be
10 in school,” what were you referring to?
11 A. That he’s managed to fool the world, and I
12 was one woman inside there. That’s what I was
13 communicating; that what he puts out in the world is
14 not who he really is. Now, because of this criminal
15 case proceedings, now people know who he really is.
16 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.
17 THE COURT: Denied.
18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you done any
19 investigation into Michael Jackson’s actions around
20 the world for children?
21 MR. ZONEN: Objection; argumentative.
22 THE COURT: It’s not argumentative, but it’s
23 not material.
24 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
25 THE COURT: We’ll take our morning recess.
26 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
27 (Recess taken.)
28 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Mesereau, you may 6663
1 proceed.
2 THE BAILIFF: Turn your microphone on,
3 please.
4 MR. MESEREAU: Oh, I’m sorry.
5 Q. Miss Arvizo, when the prosecutor was asking
6 you questions about the Brazil trip, he showed you
7 an itinerary, which is in evidence. Do you remember
8 that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. It’s a typed itinerary giving departure and
11 arrival times, correct?
12 A. This is correct.
13 Q. And he showed it to you. Do you remember
14 that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you identified it as something you were
17 aware of, right?
18 A. I came to find out after.
19 Q. Well, the itinerary says you’re leaving Los
20 Angeles for Sao Paulo, Brazil, on March 1st, 2003,
21 right?
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. It says you’re returning from Sao Paulo,
24 Brazil, to Miami on March 6th, 2003, correct?
25 A. Uh-huh.
26 Q. And it says you’re leaving Miami for Los
27 Angeles on March 7th, 2003, correct?
28 A. Uh-huh. 6664
1 Q. That was the itinerary you were shown about
2 the trip, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you ever see any plane tickets that were
5 actually purchased for the trip?
6 A. No. Just like my visa and passports.
7 Q. And you never discussed that trip with
8 anyone other than who, Frank and Vinnie?
9 A. This is correct. Frank, Vinnie, and the
10 initial meeting, in that 45-minute meeting where
11 Michael said if things got so bad we would have to
12 leave the country.
13 Q. And you never told Jay Jackson about the
14 Brazil trip?
15 A. I didn’t tell Jay anything until when I
16 permanently left Neverland. That’s when I told Jay.
17 Q. Okay. Did you tell Jay Jackson you had
18 gotten passports?
19 A. I told Jay everything after we came out
20 of -- permanently out of Neverland.
21 Q. Did you tell Jay Jackson you’d gotten a
22 visa?
23 A. I told Jay everything after we had left
24 permanently out of Neverland. That’s the best I can
25 remember.
26 Q. Now, at some point, you must have met with,
27 it appears to be Vinnie, and filled out some of
28 those documents, correct? 6665
1 A. Vinnie never left our side the majority of
2 the time.
3 Q. Excuse me?
4 A. The majority of the time, Vinnie never left
5 our side.
6 Q. And did you sit down with him and fill out
7 the documents so you could apply for a visa?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you know where he got the information
10 that went onto those forms?
11 A. They had already studied me. They already
12 had acquired all the information they wanted,
13 needed.
14 Q. Did you ever sign any forms; do you know?
15 A. Yes, I did. Yes, I signed them.
16 Q. And where did you sign those forms?
17 A. I think -- the best I can remember, I think
18 actually there at the facility.
19 Q. Which facility is this?
20 A. Where they were doing the -- where they were
21 doing the -- processing it.
22 Q. Is that a federal facility, to your
23 knowledge?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. Did you sit down and do -- work that out
26 with Vinnie? Is that how it worked?
27 A. It was already filled out by Vinnie.
28 Q. And did you and your children sit down with 6666
1 him and sign anything, to your knowledge?
2 A. No, we didn’t sit down.
3 Q. Okay. But you -- what I think you’re
4 saying, and correct me if I’m wrong, you completed
5 those documents at the federal facility, right?
6 A. Incorrect.
7 Q. Is that incorrect?
8 A. That’s incorrect.
9 Q. All right. Where did you just tell the jury
10 you sat down to finish those forms?
11 A. Never sat down. Vinnie had already all that
12 information pre filled out. All I did was sign it.
13 And that’s the best I can remember.
14 Q. Okay. And then you took a trip to the --
15 was it a consulate you went to?
16 A. No.
17 Q. What buildings did you go to to get your
18 passport, visa, and all the documents you needed to
19 take this trip to Brazil?
20 A. Everything was done in steps. First it was
21 the birth certificate. Then the passport. And then
22 the visa.
23 Q. Do you know how many buildings you went to
24 to get all this done?
25 A. Three different buildings.
26 Q. And which -- identify those buildings, if
27 you can remember.
28 A. The birth certificate, the passport and the 6667
1 visa place.
2 Q. And was it always you, Vinnie and your
3 children?
4 A. Yes, plus the people that were following us.
5 They never left our side.
6 Q. Did these people that you have not
7 identified who were following you ever enter the
8 buildings?
9 A. Yes, they did.
10 Q. So they were just mixing in with the crowds
11 in the buildings?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And is that what prevented you from ever
14 telling any officer or employee, “Help us, we’re
15 being kidnapped”?
16 A. Mostly because my parents’ life were now in
17 danger.
18 Q. Now, you told the sheriffs at one point you
19 thought your family might disappear in a hot air
20 balloon from Neverland, correct?
21 A. He’s taking it out of context. I had
22 informed the police that -- that Frank and Vinnie
23 had expressed to me that they had many ways to --
24 and also Ronald and Dieter, remember, and Ronald and
25 Dieter were replaced by Frank and Vinnie, and that
26 they had many various ways to make my children
27 disappear. And I was expressing it, but he’s
28 minimizing it. 6668
1 Q. Did you tell the sheriffs that you thought
2 your family might disappear in a hot air balloon
3 from Neverland?
4 A. Again, he’s minimizing it. I told him what
5 I told the police what Ronald and Dieter, Frank and
6 Vinnie had said; that they had various ways to
7 make -- transporting my children and making them
8 disappear. And what was most terrifying is when it
9 was towards the end, now they had the passport, plus
10 visa.
11 Q. Did you ever mention a disappearance in a
12 hot air balloon? Yes or no.
13 A. I made them aware that they had a variety of
14 ways of getting my children out and that was one of
15 them. This isn’t me. This is what your Frank and
16 Vinnie said, plus your Ronald and Dieter. So I’m
17 just communicating to the police what I was told.
18 Q. And some of them -- somebody mentioned to
19 you disappearance in a hot air balloon, right?
20 A. This is one of a variety of ways.
21 Q. Okay. Now, you said you went to the child
22 support hearing, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Your lawyer, Michael Manning, was there,
25 right?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And the night before, you stayed at Major
28 Jackson’s, correct? 6669
1 A. This is correct.
2 Q. And the night after the hearing you stayed
3 at Major Jackson’s, correct?
4 A. The night of the hearing, yes.
5 Q. And you never complained to anyone at the
6 courthouse about these problems you’ve identified,
7 right?
8 A. This is correct.
9 Q. And I think you told the jury, correct me if
10 I’m wrong, that you never told Jay Jackson about
11 these problems either the night before the support
12 hearing or the night after it, right?
13 A. The night of March 10th.
14 Q. Is that correct?
15 A. This is correct. I told him that night
16 everything.
17 Q. You told him the night of the hearing?
18 A. The March 10th, which was the day before the
19 hearing.
20 Q. Okay.
21 THE COURT: You know, Counsel, I’m going to
22 ask you to refrain from saying, “You told the jury.
23 You told the jury.” Everything that she says here
24 she told the jury.
25 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
26 THE COURT: It’s just an improper reference
27 on your behalf. You ask her for the facts, and
28 they’ll listen to it. 6670
1 MR. MESEREAU: I will do that, Your Honor.
2 Q. You appeared at a hearing in this courthouse
3 on September 17th, 2004. Do you remember that?
4 A. Yes, this is correct.
5 Q. And at that point in time, you were
6 represented by Attorney Larry Feldman, true?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just
9 show you the transcript?
10 A. I think what I’m clear on, he was helping us
11 every time something was happening.
12 Q. I asked you, “You are represented currently
13 by Mr. Feldman, correct?” And you said, “Yes,”
14 right?
15 A. Yes. Yes.
16 Q. Now, when you first hired Attorney
17 Dickerman, one of the things you wanted him to do
18 was stop any use of your children’s likeness or
19 photos in any media-type event, correct?
20 A. Yes. This is correct.
21 Q. And did you say earlier that you were
22 involved in a proceeding in England against Bashir
23 that you didn’t know about?
24 A. This is correct. Mr. Dickerman came to find
25 out afterwards.
26 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as nonresponsive
27 beyond, “This is correct.”
28 THE COURT: Sustained. 6671
1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Are you saying that you
2 were a party to a lawsuit in England that you knew
3 nothing about?
4 MR. ZONEN: Objection. Speculative; lack of
5 foundation.
6 THE COURT: Overruled.
7 THE WITNESS: This is correct.
8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: And when did you find out
9 that you were represented by a lawyer in England in
10 a lawsuit against Bashir and his company?
11 A. That Michael was involved in.
12 Q. I’m sorry, excuse me?
13 A. That Michael was involved in. I came to
14 find out this.
15 THE COURT: The question was when. When did
16 you find out?
17 THE WITNESS: Oh. Summer. In about the
18 summer.
19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: And what summer was that?
20 A. 2003.
21 Q. Okay. And did you come to learn that some
22 statements had been attributed to you in some
23 British newspapers about the Bashir documentary?
24 A. Yes, I came -- I came to find out a lot of
25 things through this investigation, what they were
26 doing.
27 Q. Did you ever see a document that was titled
28 “Recommended Statement by Janet Ventura to the UK 6672
1 Sunday Telegraph”?
2 A. I don’t know what you’re talking about. But
3 I know that Ronald and Dieter were heavy at work.
4 Q. Okay. Do you know if they were preparing
5 any statement to be released quoting you?
6 A. I came to find out that Ronald and Dieter
7 were using my children, like Michael was using my
8 children. Everybody was exploiting and using my
9 children. Now I’ve came to find out many things.
10 Q. Okay. And let me rephrase the question.
11 Did you ever find out that anybody had
12 prepared a statement attributed to you to be
13 released to a British newspaper?
14 A. I gave no authority, no interviews, no
15 nothing.
16 THE COURT: Just a minute. He’s asked
17 you --
18 THE WITNESS: Okay.
19 THE COURT: -- two or three times if you know
20 about a statement. That’s the only question he’s
21 asked you. Do you or not?
22 THE WITNESS: No.
23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you have any
24 communication during the first three months of 2003
25 with an attorney named David LeGrand?
26 A. No, I didn’t.
27 Q. Okay. Did you ever even hear his name
28 during that period? 6673
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. And when did you first learn about an
3 attorney named David LeGrand?
4 A. Okay. Michael had called over the
5 60 Minutes, Ed Bradley. This was all part of the
6 choreography. And Dieter pointed this out, and
7 Ronald over the telephone, that this interview was
8 never going to take place. It was just per
9 Michael’s choreography. And that Ed Bradley was a
10 dishonest man and they were using him for their
11 choreography.
12 And David LeGrand’s purpose -- Michael’s
13 attorney was there as part of their choreography, to
14 let them know that this interview was not going to
15 take place. He was used. That’s what happened.
16 Q. Did you -- I’m sorry, go ahead.
17 A. No, it’s okay.
18 Q. Did you ever tell anyone to include the
19 following words in a recommended statement by you to
20 the Sunday Telegraph newspaper in England --
21 A. No.
22 Q. -- “The relationship that Michael has with
23 Gavin, Star and Davellin is a beautiful, loving
24 father, son and daughter. He is their Daddy
25 Michael. And to me and my children, he is our
26 family. He cares for them as a good, loving father.
27 Michael is their only father figure who loves and
28 cares about them. They are not fatherless, because 6674
1 they have their Daddy Michael. My family consists
2 of unconditional love.”
3 Did you ever tell anyone to use those words?
4 MR. ZONEN: May I see the document, please,
5 Your Honor?
6 MR. MESEREAU: Sure.
7 MR. ZONEN: Go ahead.
8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever give words to
9 that effect to anyone to be used in a statement by
10 you?
11 A. I think I’m recalling something. Remember
12 how they put those two -- that page that had, like,
13 two signatures on there? And I told you that one of
14 my -- them, one of them was my signature, but it had
15 been moved, I can tell, because of where it was.
16 MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object as
17 nonresponsive to the question of whether or not she
18 used those words.
19 THE COURT: I’ll sustain that objection. But
20 I’m going to ask counsel to simplify the question a
21 little bit. It’s a little cumbersome the way it
22 stands.
23 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. May I approach, Your
24 Honor?
25 THE COURT: Yes.
26 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you.
27 THE WITNESS: Here it is. There it is.
28 Uh-huh. 6675
1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
2 look at that document?
3 A. Yes. Yes, I have.
4 Q. Have you had a chance to read those words?
5 A. This is where they took my signature from.
6 Q. Okay. Have you had a chance to look at it?
7 THE COURT: Just a minute. Just look at the
8 words that counsel wants you to look at.
9 Would you show her which paragraph you’re --
10 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, yes.
12 THE COURT: You’re showing her two
13 paragraphs?
14 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor. I am.
15 Well, I’m showing her --
16 THE COURT: Which one are you going to ask
17 her the question about?
18 MR. MESEREAU: I’m showing her one sentence
19 in one paragraph and a -- well, it’s really one, but
20 there’s some handwritten stuff that I’m asking her
21 to look at.
22 THE COURT: Well, you need to address with
23 her what you’re trying to show her so that she can
24 answer any questions.
25 MR. ZONEN: Your Honor, could we mark this
26 item as an exhibit?
27 THE COURT: No. He was refreshing her memory
28 with it. 6676
1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Ms. Arvizo, I’m just
2 asking you if you know where the following words
3 came from.
4 A. Yes, from Dieter.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. Dieter had -- they added that second
7 paragraph right now. But all it was was --
8 THE COURT: Just a minute. There’s no
9 question pending.
10 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay.
11 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay? Do you remember the
12 words I read?
13 A. No, you didn’t read any.
14 Q. Okay. Let me just read them and see if you
15 know where those words came from.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Okay? “The relationship that Michael has
18 with Gavin, Star and Davellin is a beautiful, loving
19 father, son and daughter. He is their Daddy
20 Michael. And to me and my children, he is our
21 family. He cares for them as a good, loving father.
22 Michael is their only father figure, who loves and
23 cares about them. They are not fatherless, because
24 they have their Daddy Michael. My family consists
25 of unconditional love.”
26 Have you heard those words before?
27 A. Yes. This is when -- when Mr. Zonen was
28 doing his -- when he was speaking with me, I had 6677
1 told you that my signature had been moved, because
2 Dieter had a pre -- preprinted paragraph, and then
3 in my -- in my own writing, he had me write
4 something. So, yes, that is right before we left
5 Miami.
6 Q. Well, if you knew about this, did you know
7 about the lawsuit?
8 A. No.
9 Q. So you did know about a statement that was
10 supposed to be attributed to you to appear in a
11 British newspaper, right?
12 A. No. No, no, no.
13 Q. Do you know whose writing that is that I
14 just showed you?
15 A. This is my writing that I’ve already told
16 the jurors.
17 Q. So you wrote those words, correct?
18 A. Yes, per Dieter’s dictation.
19 Q. You wrote those words on a statement to be
20 released Friday, February 7th, 2003, correct?
21 A. No. It wasn’t a statement that was going to
22 be released. What Ronald had done -- Dieter had
23 told me that what Ronald had done did not work to
24 appease the killers. And there’s that phrase, and
25 that’s a quote.
26 Q. And there’s a heart that’s written in
27 between the printing, and that’s a heart that you
28 wrote, correct? 6678
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And then you see “XOXOXO,” meaning “Love,”
3 right?
4 A. Yes. That’s --
5 Q. And that’s your writing, correct?
6 A. Yeah. That’s correct. I used to be that
7 kind of person. Now I’m like this (indicating) hold
8 up. I’m putting one hand over my heart.
9 Q. And your writing is inserted into a printed
10 statement, right?
11 A. Yes. They have -- by the way, he’s shown me
12 the paper. That bottom paragraph was not there.
13 Q. Are you saying that you wrote these words
14 and put a heart and put “XOXOXO” in Florida?
15 A. Yes. This is correct.
16 Q. And does the date February 7th, 2003, sound
17 right to you?
18 A. It must be right.
19 Q. Okay. And the printed portion of the
20 statement says, “I am appalled at the way in which
21 my son has been exploited by Martin Bashir and
22 Granada Television,” correct?
23 A. That’s what Dieter had written.
24 Q. And that’s the way you felt, right?
25 A. No. They had told me that this would --
26 what Ronald had did does not work and this would
27 appease the killers. So I was fooled.
28 Q. Well, are you saying you didn’t know this 6679
1 was to be released in England?
2 A. Exactly.
3 Q. And you’re saying you didn’t know that there
4 was going to be a lawsuit in England in which you,
5 your children, and Mr. Jackson were going to sue
6 Bashir and Granada Television?
7 A. This is correct. Money doesn’t buy
8 happiness. That’s why when I found out through Mr.
9 Dickerman --
10 MR. ZONEN: Objection; nonresponsive.
11 THE WITNESS: -- I put a stop to it.
12 THE COURT: Sustained. There’s no question
13 pending.
14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever see an
15 article that appeared in a British newspaper the
16 next day, February 8th, 2003, that quoted you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you ever talk to anyone who claimed to
19 represent a British newspaper at any time?
20 A. I think -- I think when those two people
21 that had came before we left to Miami that had
22 scared my parents, and they kept saying, “Gavin,
23 cancer; Gavin, cancer.”
24 Q. Ms. Arvizo -- oh, sorry.
25 Miss Arvizo, did you ever tell anyone that
26 you were living in a stable with hay and horses in
27 Bakersfield?
28 A. No. 6680
1 Q. Ever say anything to that effect to anyone?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you ever hear or learn that you were
4 quoted as saying that?
5 A. Yeah. I came to find out a lot of things.
6 Q. When did you find out that you were quoted
7 as saying that you and your family were so poor you
8 were living in a stable with hay in Bakersfield?
9 A. Just recently. I’ve never lived in
10 Bakersfield.
11 Q. Did you ever learn that Jamie Masada had
12 quoted you as saying that?
13 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as lack of
14 foundation and assumes facts not in evidence that
15 Jamie Masada said she lived in Bakersfield.
16 THE COURT: Sustained; foundation.
17 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, the document that you
18 just admitted adding language to, was that presented
19 to you at the hotel in Florida?
20 A. Yes, it was.
21 Q. And you read that before you inserted all
22 these words?
23 A. No, I didn’t. I completely trusted them.
24 Q. Did you know it was supposed to be a
25 recommended statement by you?
26 A. What?
27 Q. Did you know the document you were inserting
28 words into was titled “A Recommended Statement” by 6681
1 you?
2 A. No. I didn’t read it. I completely trusted
3 them.
4 Q. Well, why would you add language to an
5 already existing paragraph if you didn’t know what
6 was in the paragraph?
7 A. Because Dieter dictated that. Everything
8 was -- at that point was like a state of panic.
9 That’s how Ronald and Dieter were behaving.
10 Q. So you just filled out what you were told to
11 fill out and never read a thing, correct?
12 A. Yes, I completely trusted them. I did.
13 Q. Let me get back to what you told the social
14 workers on the 20th, okay? You told them, “My
15 children are never solely alone with Michael
16 Jackson,” true?
17 A. Incorrect.
18 Q. You didn’t tell that to them?
19 A. That’s correct.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. And let me remind you --
22 MR. ZONEN: Objection; no question pending.
23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You told the social
25 workers, Mrs. Arvizo, “There’s always someone
26 around,” right?
27 A. Incorrect.
28 Q. You told them, “When we go to Neverland, we 6682
1 are always around people,” right?
2 A. Incorrect.
3 Q. You said, “Sometimes I stay in the visitors’
4 quarters, but mostly I am in the main house,” right?
5 A. Incorrect.
6 Q. You said, “Gavin, Star and Davellin have all
7 been in Michael’s room,” right?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. You said, “Yes, Gavin and Star have been
10 with Michael on his bed watching T.V.,” right?
11 A. Incorrect.
12 Q. You told the social workers, “As to the
13 allegations that they share a bed, it is no”?
14 A. What?
15 Q. Did you tell that to the social workers?
16 A. Repeat that, please.
17 Q. The words are, “As to the allegations that
18 they share a bed, it is no.”
19 A. Incorrect. These social workers, all they
20 were interested was not being sued by Michael
21 Jackson.
22 MR. ZONEN: Objection; nonresponsive.
23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 THE WITNESS: They didn’t have --
25 THE COURT: Just a minute. There’s no
26 question pending.
27 THE WITNESS: Okay. Okay.
28 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: In that interview with the 6683
1 social workers, you said, “There are always children
2 in Michael’s room,” right?
3 A. Incorrect.
4 Q. You told the social workers, “On or about
5 September 15th, 2002, the day in question, Gavin and
6 Star were in Michael’s room watching T.V. and they
7 made s’mores in a fireplace in Michael’s room”?
8 A. Incorrect.
9 Q. Never said anything like that to the social
10 workers?
11 A. No, no. They didn’t even have no pad or pen
12 with them when they were sitting at the kitchen
13 table.
14 Q. You told the Los Angeles social workers, all
15 three of them, that, “Michael slept on the floor
16 with blankets and a sleeping bag while Gavin and
17 Star slept in the bed,” right?
18 A. Incorrect.
19 Q. You told the social workers, “I’m usually up
20 walking around the house all night long,” right?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You told the social workers, “The room is
23 open and there are no doors to shut,” correct?
24 A. Incorrect.
25 Q. You told the social workers, “It makes me
26 sick that someone would accuse Michael of doing harm
27 to my son and other children when he has never been
28 anything but wonderful.” 6684
1 You said that, didn’t you?
2 A. Incorrect.
3 Q. You told the social workers, “He has been
4 like a father to them,” right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Told the social workers, “My children have
7 never felt uncomfortable in his presence,” right?
8 A. Incorrect.
9 Q. You told the social workers, “Michael has
10 been a blessing,” right?
11 A. Huh-uh.
12 Q. You told the social workers, “I was not
13 aware that the taping with Mr. Bashir would be
14 aired”?
15 A. That I did.
16 Q. You told them, “We did not sign any consent
17 to have my children on this interview,” right?
18 A. This is correct.
19 Q. You further told them, “When my children
20 would go to visit Neverland, there was always
21 somebody present,” right?
22 A. Incorrect.
23 Q. You told them, “On several occasions,
24 Michael’s friend, Chris Tucker, and his family were
25 there,” right?
26 A. I informed them that my children had been
27 there, had had that visit that I’ve already
28 expressed to you over and over. 6685
1 Q. You told the social workers, “In September
2 of 2002, Chris Tucker accompanied Gavin, Star and
3 Davellin in Neverland Ranch,” right?
4 A. That’s the birthday party that I was talking
5 to you about.
6 Q. You told them, “Our last visit to Neverland
7 together was on February 19th, 2003”; is that right?
8 A. Incorrect.
9 Q. You said, “The children are welcome there
10 any time,” right?
11 A. Incorrect.
12 Q. You said, “I do not always go to Neverland
13 with the children,” right?
14 A. This is correct.
15 Q. You told them, “Michael is like a father to
16 my children,” right?
17 A. This is correct.
18 Q. You said, “He’s like family,” correct?
19 A. This is correct.
20 Q. You said, “He gives advice to my children,
21 and that is something they never had with their
22 father,” right?
23 A. That is correct, because of the initial
24 meeting.
25 Q. You said, “He loves them and I trust them
26 with him,” right?
27 A. Yes. What a fool I was.
28 Q. You said, “Michael is so kind and I feel 6686
1 that he is misunderstood,” right?
2 A. “So kind,” but I didn’t say “misunderstood.”
3 Q. You further said, “Michael was an important
4 part of Gavin’s recovery from cancer,” right?
5 A. Incorrect.
6 Q. You said, “Gavin met Jamie Masada at The
7 Laugh Factory about three years ago and made a wish
8 to meet Michael Jackson,” true?
9 A. No. I said Gavin had spoke to Jamie and
10 said he was one of three people that he wanted to
11 meet.
12 Q. Did you tell them you felt that the paternal
13 grandparents had deserted your children?
14 A. Does that mean like David’s family? I’m
15 asking you if that’s what it means. Unless you want
16 to clear -- can you make it clearer, please?
17 Q. All I can ask you is, did you say, “Mother
18 feels that the paternal grandparents have deserted
19 the children”?
20 A. Oh.
21 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as vague.
22 THE COURT: She’s asked for a definition of
23 “paternal.”
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 THE COURT: She didn’t use the word. It’s
26 not suggested she used the word. That’s a
27 conclusion of one of the social workers. So would
28 you help her? 6687
1 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, I will, Your Honor.
2 Q. Yes, I think the way you’ve defined it would
3 be correct.
4 A. Yes. Yes. David’s family didn’t want
5 nothing to do with my kids.
6 Q. Do you remember telling those social workers
7 the media has been taking everything out of context
8 and you’re appalled at the negative attention your
9 children have been receiving?
10 A. No. What I told her is that -- told them
11 that I didn’t understand what was happening.
12 Q. Did you tell them that you’ve been having a
13 difficult time personally and financially?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You told them about your prior involvement
16 with the DCFS, right?
17 A. Oh, yes. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Your children were interviewed on that day,
19 right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Were you there when they were interviewed?
22 A. Yes, I was.
23 Q. And just in summary, you heard them say
24 glowing things about Michael Jackson, right?
25 A. Yes, they did. Yes.
26 Q. And at some point, you learned that this
27 investigation was closed, right?
28 A. Yes, I came to find out. 6688
1 Q. Approximately when did you find out the
2 investigation was closed?
3 A. Well, when Jay and me paged Karen Walker
4 after the Family Court day and we asked her for
5 help. And she said, “It’s out of my hands. It’s
6 out of my hands. We’ve already done the report. Go
7 get legal help. I can’t help you.”
8 When I told her that my son had been given
9 alcohol, that we were being held, that they were
10 taped, gave her all this information, and she said,
11 “It’s out of my hands,” that’s when I found out the
12 report was done.
13 Q. And approximately what date was that?
14 A. That was the 11th, March 11th.
15 Q. And did you call her?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. Okay. Did you file a report?
18 A. Well, I spoke to the supervisor. She was
19 the supervisor, Karen Walker.
20 Q. Were you being represented by Attorney
21 William Dickerman at that point?
22 A. No.
23 Q. When did you first start being represented
24 by Attorney William Dickerman?
25 A. After she didn’t help me.
26 Q. He didn’t write to the DCFS at any time, did
27 he?
28 A. No, he didn’t. But Mr. Feldman did. 6689
1 Q. And that was, what, months later? To your
2 knowledge.
3 A. I can’t....
4 Q. Okay. Did you ever read any of the letters
5 Attorney Dickerman was sending to Attorney Mark
6 Geragos?
7 A. Yes, some of them I did.
8 Q. And did you assist Mr. Dickerman in
9 preparing those letters?
10 A. I didn’t assist him. I told him what was
11 happening. He wrote them himself.
12 Q. And was it your belief that Mr. Dickerman
13 was writing Mr. Geragos to complain about injustices
14 that had been done to you and your family?
15 A. What Mr. Dickerman was doing was giving us
16 help, as retrieving our visa, our passports,
17 everything that belonged to us. Where is my
18 storage? Where is my items? Things that belonged
19 to me. Requesting that my children’s clothing be
20 returned.
21 Because when Frank rummaged through the
22 children’s clothing, he took all the new clothing
23 that they had purchased. But when they were doing
24 that, they also took my children’s own clothing and
25 kept all of Gavin’s clothing. And Frank said that
26 if they wanted them, they needed to come back to
27 Neverland.
28 Just different things like that. And for 6690
1 your people to stop following us, and to make you
2 aware that we wanted nothing to do with you anymore.
3 Q. In none of his letters did he ever mention
4 anything about alcohol or child molestation, true?
5 A. Because that was information for these guys
6 right here, for the police.
7 Q. How many months later?
8 A. Because I didn’t want Geragos to know that
9 we were headed towards -- straight to the police.
10 Q. Do you know when you first met with
11 Dickerman?
12 A. I believe -- I think it was the 25th of
13 February.
14 Q. Pardon me?
15 A. I believe I met him, but he was not my
16 attorney, February 25th. Just met him for minutes.
17 Minutes. That’s it.
18 Q. How many meetings did you have with Mr.
19 Dickerman?
20 A. Prior to leaving out of Neverland, once.
21 Q. How about after you left Neverland?
22 A. After I left Neverland? Well, all these --
23 in order to -- I think -- the best I can believe, I
24 think it was two. It was two. That’s the best I
25 can remember.
26 Q. How long did Mr. Dickerman represent you?
27 A. Well, until Mr. Feldman and Mr. Dickerman
28 kicked me to the curb because I didn’t want to tell 6691
1 them all the information that I was telling the
2 police. Because the police told me not to tell them
3 because that would compromise the investigation.
4 And so I didn’t tell them nothing. Mr. Feldman was
5 clueless, and so was Mr. Dickerman.
6 Q. But you weren’t speaking to the police until
7 long after you met Larry Feldman, true?
8 A. Yes, because I wanted to ensure that these
9 people weren’t following us anymore.
10 Q. You didn’t go to the police until months
11 after you first started meeting with Attorney Larry
12 Feldman?
13 A. This is correct. I wanted to just
14 hopefully -- maybe we could have the ability to
15 just -- maybe it would disappear. But the more
16 things were happening, the more I was becoming
17 aware.
18 Q. So you had gone to at least two lawyers
19 about your alleged problems with Mr. Jackson for
20 months before you ever spoke to anyone with the
21 Santa Barbara Sheriff’s Department, right, Ms.
22 Arvizo?
23 A. Yes, this is correct.
24 Q. And the first report of any allegation of
25 child molestation to the sheriffs came from Mr.
26 Feldman, did it not?
27 A. Let me see. Well, actually -- actually,
28 Mr. -- my husband, Jay Jackson, tried to reach the 6692
1 police. And then when me and -- me and Jay both
2 contacted the supervisor, Karen Walker, then -- and
3 she said to go get legal help. And also, as things
4 are moving in dates, I’m starting to find out more
5 and more. Now I know why he had a criminal defense
6 attorney, but I didn’t know because there was no
7 investigation underway.
8 Q. There had been an investigation since
9 February that was publicly announced by Santa
10 Barbara, right?
11 A. Well, I wasn’t aware of that.
12 Q. You’re claiming that in the middle of all of
13 these efforts to falsely imprison your family,
14 restrain your family, get you to Brazil, deal with
15 the media, all of a sudden child molestation starts,
16 right?
17 MR. ZONEN: Objection. Argumentative and
18 compound.
19 THE COURT: Sustained on compound.
20 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember meeting
21 with someone named “Bowen” from the DCFS?
22 A. No. Is she the one, or he, that leaked all
23 the information from the DCFS to everybody?
24 Q. You remember meeting with three women from
25 the DCFS on the 20th, right?
26 A. Yes, I do.
27 Q. And there was Karen Walker, right?
28 A. Yes. 6693
1 Q. Was there -- Irene Peters one of the ladies?
2 A. That sounds familiar.
3 Q. How about Jacqueline Bowen?
4 A. I don’t -- I don’t remember the -- all I
5 remember is Miss Karen Walker, Jackie and someone
6 named Yvonne. So I don’t know.
7 Q. And you complained to Miss Peters about the
8 Bashir documentary, right?
9 A. No, I didn’t. I told them that there was no
10 consent. That’s all.
11 Q. And you were upset about that, right?
12 A. No, I said there was no consent.
13 Q. Do you remember complaining that you could
14 not get any assistance from Michael Jackson
15 regarding tutoring or home schooling because of all
16 the media attention?
17 A. No. That’s incorrect.
18 Q. Do you remember saying you were having a
19 difficult time schooling your kids because of the
20 media attention?
21 A. That’s incorrect. Because I reenrolled my
22 children back into that school the second we finally
23 got to leave Neverland permanently.
24 Q. Do you remember telling Miss Bowen you were
25 having a hard time contacting Michael Jackson in
26 regards to helping with the tutoring due to the
27 problems the children were having at school?
28 A. That’s incorrect. 6694
1 Q. You never said that to Ms. Bowen of the
2 DCFS?
3 A. No, the meeting was so small with them, that
4 I remember all they were interested was not being
5 sued by Michael Jackson.
6 Q. And how long was that meeting, if you
7 remember?
8 A. Okay. Well, let me see. Here we go.
9 Twenty minutes -- about 20 minutes of Asaf taping
10 it. So about maybe after that, maybe about ten
11 minutes sitting with them. 10, 15 minutes. 15
12 minutes would be generous. So about a total of --
13 altogether maybe 30, 35 minutes, 40 minutes. 40
14 minutes would be a stretch. That would be making it
15 generous.
16 They came in there for one thing only. You
17 know, one thing: Not to be sued by Michael Jackson.
18 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as nonresponsive.
19 THE COURT: The last two sentences are
20 stricken.
21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember asking
22 Karen Walker if she could talk to Michael’s people
23 to see if they could provide schooling for your
24 kids?
25 A. No.
26 Q. Do you remember asking Miss Walker if she
27 would write a letter on your behalf so your kids
28 could get schooling? 6695
1 A. No.
2 Q. And do you remember telling Ms. Walker
3 you’re not going to take a trip to Brazil?
4 A. Do I?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. I made no mention to them of leaving the
7 country. I made her aware afterwards, when Jay and
8 I paged her, what they were trying to do.
9 Q. Now, at some point, did you sign any
10 documents which suggested your children should be
11 taken out of their school?
12 A. I -- not suggested. It was. I didn’t sign
13 the one for Davellin, which they had done before
14 they had taken the children out. The one for the
15 boys I did sign, because that was afterwards.
16 Q. And the document you signed was designed to
17 give your permission to take your sons out of
18 school, correct?
19 A. This is correct.
20 Q. And what school did you think they were
21 leaving?
22 A. I didn’t know. I just did what they said.
23 That’s it. At that point, the end point, I was
24 doing what they were saying. That’s it.
25 MR. ZONEN: Objection; nonresponsive to the
26 question.
27 THE COURT: I’ll strike after, “I didn’t
28 know.” 6696
1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: During the point in time
2 when you signed that document authorizing your sons
3 to be taken out of school, did you talk to anyone at
4 the school?
5 A. At that time, no. I wasn’t even present.
6 Q. But clearly you knew your children were
7 going to be leaving their school, right?
8 A. This is correct.
9 Q. And what school did you believe Gavin was
10 leaving?
11 A. They were going to be nowhere. We were
12 headed out -- out of the country. This was for
13 their purpose of no one being able to trace my
14 children nor me. We were headed out.
15 Q. What school did you believe Gavin was
16 leaving when you signed that document?
17 A. Well, if it was up to them, they were going
18 to be in no school.
19 MR. ZONEN: Your Honor, I don’t believe the
20 witness understands the question.
21 MR. MESEREAU: I can try to rephrase it,
22 Your Honor, if it’s unclear.
23 THE COURT: We’ll just have the court
24 reporter read it back. She hasn’t said she doesn’t
25 understand.
26 Read it back.
27 (Record read.)
28 THE WITNESS: Zero. 6697
1 MR. ZONEN: I don’t believe the witness
2 understands the question.
3 THE WITNESS: I don’t understand.
4 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll try to rephrase it.
5 Q. You signed a document --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- authorizing the school to release Gavin
8 as a student, right?
9 A. Gavin and Star. The boys.
10 Q. Which school were you talking about?
11 A. That they were attending?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. They were attending John Burroughs.
14 Q. And you knew that a document was prepared to
15 allow Davellin to leave school, right?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you know that Davellin was going to
18 leave school?
19 A. No. Davellin, I had no knowledge of.
20 Q. So you thought you were going to Brazil, but
21 you only thought Gavin and Star were leaving school?
22 A. No, no. I signed that paper because they
23 had me sign it.
24 Q. To your knowledge, did Gavin and Star
25 actually leave that school?
26 A. Well, they were checked out by Vinnie. I
27 wasn’t there. When I finally got permanently out of
28 Neverland, I reenrolled them immediately into the 6698
1 same school.
2 Q. Well, when you got out of Neverland at that
3 point, you knew you were not going to be involved
4 with Mr. Jackson ever again, correct?
5 A. He gave my son alcohol. Please.
6 Q. Did you know that?
7 A. He gave my son alcohol. That was enough for
8 me. But as time progressed, I found out more and
9 more and more. So no way, no way.
10 Q. Well, as time went on, the story just kept
11 getting bigger and bigger, didn’t it?
12 MR. ZONEN: Objection. Argumentative;
13 asked and answered.
14 THE COURT: It’s argumentative. Sustained.
15 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you know that Major
16 Jay Jackson had asked for monetary compensation for
17 your family from Frank?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you know that Jay Jackson had said words
20 to the effect, “You guys are making millions. And
21 this family should get their proper piece of the
22 action”?
23 MR. ZONEN: Objection; misstatement of the
24 evidence.
25 THE COURT: Overruled.
26 You may answer.
27 THE WITNESS: Okay. I’ve come to find out
28 now. But, no, I didn’t then. 6699
1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: So at that point in time,
2 you never discussed with Major Jay Jackson your
3 family’s right to have any compensation if they
4 appeared in a rebuttal video?
5 A. This is correct. There was a new
6 relationship with Jay.
7 Q. And based on the fact that you now are aware
8 of this, do you believe he kept you silent on that
9 issue?
10 A. I don’t understand your question.
11 Q. You’re saying that Jay Jackson never told
12 you that he approached Frank and said, “How much is
13 the family going to get?”
14 A. I’m aware now, because of the
15 investigations, but I didn’t know then. And that’s
16 it.
17 Q. Did you know at any time that Major Jackson
18 was discussing the possibility of selling a story to
19 a British tabloid?
20 A. I think you’re saying it incorrect. I
21 barely found out as I’ve been up here.
22 But the way he’s saying it isn’t the way
23 it’s been said to me by the D.A.’s Office.
24 Q. Did you know at any time that Major Jackson
25 was in discussions with representatives of a British
26 tabloid about the possibility of selling a story?
27 A. No.
28 Q. He never discussed that with you at any 6700
1 time?
2 A. No. Not at all. Till this day he still
3 hasn’t.
4 Q. Did you ever have a discussion with Frank
5 about your getting any home in the Hollywood Hills?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you ever have a discussion with Frank
8 about the possibility of a college education for
9 Gavin being paid for by Michael Jackson?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Now, you believe your signature was forged
12 on some documents making you a party to a lawsuit in
13 Britain, right?
14 A. My signature, per their investigation, is
15 accurate. I signed a blank piece of paper in Miami
16 that Ronald had presented to me. But that signature
17 is mine.
18 Q. Did you ever receive any communications from
19 any lawyer regarding the lawsuit in England?
20 A. After we were permanently out, Mr. Dickerman
21 communicated to me that this was going on. And they
22 even offered me money to stay in it, and I said no.
23 Q. When you left the apartment on Soto Street,
24 did you personally sign any documents that say
25 you’re going to leave?
26 A. No.
27 Q. Did you ever sign any documents involving
28 rent that was owed or not owed? 6701
1 A. No, I did not.
2 Q. Did you ever talk to the landlord and say
3 you were leaving?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. And was that Yolanda?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. And I -- this is another person that I tried
9 to slip something in --
10 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.
11 THE WITNESS: -- leaving -- that I told her
12 I was leaving the country.
13 THE COURT: Just a moment. Just a moment,
14 please.
15 Stricken.
16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Was that Yolanda Lazalde?
17 A. Yes. That’s where I slipped in “I’m leaving
18 the country.” This is another one of the people
19 that I was trying to reach out to.
20 Q. This was another one of your clues that you
21 were leaving?
22 A. Pardon me? Yes. Yes, it was.
23 Q. Now, was Ramon Trujillo also the landlord?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Did you communicate with Ramon
26 Trujillo that you were leaving the apartment?
27 A. No, I had no communication with him.
28 Q. Okay. You told Miss Lazalde that you were 6702
1 leaving the apartment, but gave no reason?
2 A. I did not tell her that. I told her I was
3 leaving the country, but that’s it. Jay Jackson had
4 went and paid my current rent.
5 Q. To your knowledge, did anyone other than Jay
6 Jackson pay rent that you owed?
7 A. No. It was from my funds that he went and
8 did me the favor to go pay the rent, because I
9 couldn’t.
10 Q. My question is, and it may not have been
11 clear, are you aware of anyone other than Jay
12 Jackson paying rent that you owed on that apartment?
13 A. I came to find out, through that, what Mr.
14 Zonen submitted into evidence, that they had done
15 that. And then I also came to find out that Frank
16 and Vinnie had said that this was a way for no one
17 to start searching for where me and the kids might
18 be.
19 Q. Now, at this point in time, you thought that
20 Mr. Jackson, one of the best known people in the
21 world, was trying to just kidnap your whole family,
22 right?
23 MR. ZONEN: Object as argumentative.
24 THE COURT: Sustained.
25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: At this point in time, you
26 thought Michael Jackson was arranging to kidnap your
27 entire family, right?
28 MR. ZONEN: Objection to the use of 6703
1 “kidnap”; leading.
2 THE COURT: Overruled.
3 You may answer.
4 THE WITNESS: All I know is what I saw and
5 what I knew. They were making me, my children leave
6 the country. That’s all I knew.
7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You were leaving the
8 country for one week, right?
9 A. No. Till they decided when. And as long as
10 I did what they told me.
11 Q. Do you know someone named Katie Bernard who
12 worked at Neverland?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Now, are you aware of Katie Bernard driving
15 you to the spa in Los Olivos when you had the wax?
16 A. That was Chris Carter.
17 Q. You don’t recall Katie Bernard doing that?
18 A. No, it was Chris.
19 Q. Are you aware of a Katie Bernard ever
20 dropping you off the next day to have your hair
21 done?
22 A. Never happened.
23 Q. Do you remember telling Katie Bernard how
24 good Michael Jackson had been to your family and
25 what a great guy he was?
26 A. No, I don’t even know Katie Bernard.
27 Q. Okay. Are you aware of Katie Bernard paying
28 for your spa treatment? 6704
1 A. No. And it was a leg wax.
2 Q. Did you ever call Katie Bernard and ask her
3 to arrange for Gavin and Star’s braces to be removed
4 by a dentist?
5 A. No. That was taken care of by Frank and
6 Vinnie.
7 Q. Did you ever tell Katie Bernard that you
8 were being hassled by a Los Angeles dentist for
9 payment and you wanted her to arrange to have your
10 two sons’ braces removed?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you ever tell Katie Bernard you wanted
13 her to return the braces to the L.A. dentist because
14 you couldn’t afford to pay for them?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you remember ever calling Katie Bernard
17 and saying you wanted to go shopping for clothes
18 while you were at Neverland?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you ever know someone at Neverland named
21 Rafael Camacho?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you recall Rafael Camacho occasionally
24 driving you to places off the ranch property while
25 you were staying at Neverland?
26 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as lack of
27 familiarity by the witness. She says no, she
28 doesn’t know him. 6705
1 THE COURT: Sustained.
2 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you know whether or not
3 anyone who worked at Neverland ever drove you to
4 various places off the ranch property while you
5 stayed at Neverland?
6 A. No. They even made me miss Ash Wednesday,
7 and I had never missed it before.
8 Q. Who’s “they”?
9 A. Michael’s people.
10 Q. Okay. Did you ask for someone to drive you
11 to church on Ash Wednesday?
12 A. They knew I wanted to go to church. But at
13 that point, that was it.
14 Q. But did you actually ask for someone to
15 drive you to a local church on Ash Wednesday?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. Who did you ask?
18 A. I asked Frank and I asked Vinnie, and they
19 said no.
20 Q. Did you ever know someone named Modesto
21 Camarena at Neverland?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you ever know someone at Neverland named
24 Hector Elenes?
25 A. No.
26 Q. Did you know someone at Neverland named
27 Francisco Fuentes?
28 A. No. 6706
1 Q. Ever complain to Francisco Fuentes that you
2 were struggling financially?
3 A. I don’t even know Francisco Fuentes.
4 MR. ZONEN: I’ll so object as lack of
5 foundation.
6 THE COURT: Lack of foundation; sustained.
7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Ever know someone at
8 Neverland named Tammy Gewehr, G-e-w-e-h-r?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Ever know someone at Neverland named Gayle
11 Goforth?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Ever know someone who worked at Neverland
14 named Maria Gomez?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Ever tell Maria Gomez that you thought Frank
17 and Vinnie were separating you from Michael Jackson?
18 MR. ZONEN: Objection. Lack of foundation,
19 that she knows this person.
20 THE COURT: Sustained.
21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever tell anyone
22 at Neverland that Frank and Vinnie were separating
23 you from Michael Jackson?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you ever tell anyone at Neverland that
26 you had financial problems?
27 A. No.
28 Q. Did you ever know someone who worked at 6707
1 Neverland named Curtis Gordon?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you ever know someone at Neverland named
4 Patty Hankins?
5 A. No.
6 Q. How about Chris Hernandez?
7 A. No.
8 Q. How about Ryan Hester?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Ever know someone who worked at Neverland
11 named Anthony Hudley?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you ever know someone who worked at
14 Neverland named Charlie Kirchhoff?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Ever know someone who worked at Neverland
17 named Julio Magana?
18 A. No, I don’t. But I remember when I had
19 called to Neverland to make contact with my kids,
20 because I was already out, I asked him his name and
21 he said his name was Julio. So that was it. But
22 that’s the name. It sounds familiar.
23 Q. Do you know someone who worked at Neverland
24 named Christy Mann?
25 A. No.
26 Q. Did you ever know someone named Shane
27 Meredith?
28 A. No. 6708
1 Q. During any of your trips to Neverland, did
2 you ever meet someone named Samuel Moreno?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you ever meet someone named Jonathan
5 Bruce Richards?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you ever meet someone named Manuel
8 Rivera during your trips to Neverland?
9 A. No.
10 Q. During your trips to Neverland, did you ever
11 compliment Michael Jackson?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Ever complain to anyone that you wanted your
14 children on television with Michael Jackson?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Now, you did argue with Ronald Konitzer at
17 Neverland, right?
18 A. I didn’t argue with him.
19 Q. Did you ever argue with Dieter?
20 A. I didn’t argue with them.
21 Q. Did you ever know someone at Neverland named
22 Brian Salce, S-a-l-c-e?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Ever know an employee at Neverland named
25 James Silva?
26 A. No.
27 Q. While you were visiting Neverland, did you
28 ever meet Javier Velasco? 6709
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you ever tell anyone at Neverland that
3 your children loved Michael Jackson like a father?
4 A. No. Once at Neverland, all that stopped.
5 Especially when he’s running around like crazy with
6 my kids.
7 Q. Did you ever complain to Javier Velasco that
8 Michael Jackson had promised to take care of you,
9 and you knew now it wasn’t going to happen?
10 MR. ZONEN: Lack of foundation that she ever
11 knew Javier Velasco.
12 THE COURT: Sustained.
13 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever complain to
14 anyone at Neverland that Michael Jackson had
15 promised to take care of you, and now you knew it
16 wasn’t going to happen?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Ever meet someone named Angel Vivanco?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you ever know someone named Jason
21 Wolcott at Neverland?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you ever meet someone named Christian
24 Robinson?
25 A. Yes. He’s the one that did the -- the
26 rebuttal video. He’s the one that had the scripted
27 questions and you could even see him holding it.
28 And he’s the one that also picked up mine and my 6710
1 children’s birth certificate.
2 Q. Now, when you say “scripted questions,” do
3 you mean he had the questions in advance that he was
4 going to ask you on the rebuttal video?
5 A. Yes. That’s my understanding. I may be
6 wrong.
7 Q. And were they the questions you believe he
8 was asking you when you filmed the rebuttal video?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Where did you first meet him?
11 A. Right there.
12 Q. Was that at Hamid’s house?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was that the first time you had ever seen
15 him?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And that would have been the -- what, the
18 day of the 20th?
19 A. The day of the 19th, going into the 20th.
20 From 19th, about 11-something, till like a.m. hours
21 of the 20th.
22 Q. And approximately what time do you think you
23 met Christian Robinson?
24 A. Oh, well, when I got there.
25 Q. Now, did someone tell you whose house you
26 were going to?
27 A. Yes. Vinnie.
28 Q. Okay. So you knew it was owned by someone 6711
1 named Hamid, right?
2 A. Yes. And also Frank on the phone.
3 Q. Your understanding was that the purpose of
4 that video was to make Michael Jackson look good,
5 right?
6 A. That’s correct.
7 Q. And you knew for quite a while that efforts
8 were being made to put together a television show in
9 response to the Bashir documentary, right?
10 A. That’s what I came to find out. And I
11 wanted no part of it, and that’s why I left with
12 Jesus, me and my children.
13 Q. Did you ever hear your sons say to Mr.
14 Robinson they wanted to be famous on the T.V. show?
15 A. I don’t think so.
16 Q. When is the last time you saw Christian
17 Robinson?
18 A. It was just that day. That’s it.
19 Q. Okay. Now, do you remember when you
20 testified before the grand jury, you were shown a
21 number of documents involving expenditures that were
22 made for you and your family at one point by Frank
23 and Vinnie?
24 A. Yes, this is correct.
25 Q. And when you were in the grand jury room,
26 you did acknowledge that what was on those documents
27 had been spent for you, Gavin, Star and Davellin,
28 true? 6712
1 A. He’s taking it out of context. Another
2 thing: What applied to me and my kids was pretty
3 accurate, but what applied to Frank and Vinnie,
4 you’re going to have to talk to them about it.
5 Q. When you stayed at Neverland, it was your
6 understanding that any costs involved were paid for
7 by Michael Jackson, true?
8 A. We were on his --
9 MR. ZONEN: Objection; vague. Costs
10 involved with what?
11 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll be happy to rephrase it.
12 Q. When you and your family visited Neverland,
13 you were often transported back and forth by someone
14 that you thought was hired by Mr. Jackson, correct?
15 A. We were not often transferred back and
16 forth.
17 Q. Well, how many visits do you think your
18 family made to Neverland in total?
19 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.
20 THE COURT: Sustained.
21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: How did you get to
22 Neverland the first time your family went?
23 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.
24 THE COURT: Overruled.
25 THE WITNESS: How did we get there the first
26 time?
27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Yes.
28 A. Which time? 6713
1 Q. Let me rephrase the question.
2 Most of the time when you or your family
3 went back and forth to Neverland, the transportation
4 was arranged by someone at Neverland, true?
5 A. Yes. This is correct.
6 Q. And it was your belief that this
7 transportation was paid for by Mr. Jackson, correct?
8 A. Yes, this is correct.
9 Q. And you mentioned someone named Evvy Tavasci
10 whom you knew, right?
11 A. Yes, I never met her. It was only solely
12 per the telephone.
13 Q. You used to call her sometimes, didn’t you?
14 A. No, she called us.
15 Q. Did you ever call her yourself?
16 A. In returning her phone message.
17 Q. Did you ever ask Evvy Tavasci to do anything
18 for you or your family?
19 A. Never.
20 Q. Okay. Ever give her any ideas about ways
21 Michael Jackson could help you or your family?
22 A. Never. I had friends. If I wanted some
23 help I could ask my own friends, and yet I never
24 did.
25 Q. Ever ask Evvy Tavasci to arrange any trip
26 for you or your family?
27 A. Never.
28 Q. To your knowledge, did she ever do anything 6714
1 like that?
2 A. Well, she -- when Michael had contacted us
3 for the Miami stuff.
4 Q. Well, you traveled to Miami on Chris
5 Tucker’s plane, right?
6 A. No, not Chris Tucker’s plane.
7 Q. Did you travel to Miami with Chris Tucker?
8 A. Yes, I did. And that was per Evvy’s
9 arrangement. Evvy and Michael had called Chris and
10 got him pulled into this mess.
11 Q. Did you hear -- did you watch Michael
12 Jackson call Chris?
13 A. No, I didn’t.
14 MR. ZONEN: Objection; argumentative.
15 THE COURT: Sustained.
16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever observe Mr.
17 Jackson calling Chris Tucker at any time?
18 A. Well, it’s my understanding in Miami, and
19 Chris had told me there at his house, that Evvy and
20 Michael had contacted him. This is why I became
21 aware.
22 Q. Did you ever request to travel to Florida
23 with Chris Tucker?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you ever meet anyone at Neverland named
26 Julio Avila?
27 A. I think I already said this.
28 Q. You did not. 6715
1 A. They -- when I had called and I was already
2 out of Neverland, I called wanting to speak to my
3 kids. And the person that I was speaking to, I
4 asked them what their name was, and they said their
5 name was Julio. I think that’s --
6 Q. Did you ever speak with anyone named Alex
7 Byrne?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you know who Alex Byrne is?
10 A. No.
11 Q. How about Nancy Catullo?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you ever speak to Nancy Catullo about
14 setting up a bank account for Gavin?
15 A. No.
16 MR. ZONEN: Objection. No foundation she
17 knows a Nancy Catullo.
18 THE COURT: Sustained.
19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever seek advice
20 from anyone about setting up a bank account for the
21 benefit of Gavin?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Now, you spoke to Dr. Alex Farshshian, did
24 you not?
25 A. No, I didn’t.
26 Q. Did you ever meet him?
27 A. Yes, I did. But we weren’t introduced. I
28 just knew because I heard them calling him that. 6716
1 Q. He was the physician who was on the plane --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- on the flight back from Miami, true?
4 A. Yes, I am aware of that.
5 Q. Did you exchange any words with him at all?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Ever meet someone at Neverland named Romero
8 Ruvalcaba Garcia?
9 A. No.
10 Q. How about Gary Hearn?
11 A. Gary Hearn, the extent of my conversations
12 with him was when he would pick up the kids, and
13 when he told us, “Guys, there’s been a change of
14 plans,” and he took us to Chris’s house. So it’s
15 just -- he was a driver.
16 Q. Do you remember him driving your family from
17 Neverland and making various stops to buy things for
18 you and your family?
19 A. No.
20 Q. That never happened?
21 A. That never happened.
22 Q. Ever meet someone related to Mr. Jackson
23 named Rio?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you ever meet someone related to Mr.
26 Jackson named Simone?
27 A. No. But I did see other children there.
28 Q. Do you know Arlene Kennedy? 6717
1 A. Yes, I know Miss Kennedy.
2 Q. And who is she?
3 A. Miss Kennedy is someone that I got to meet.
4 She’s the owner of the tap dance school where my
5 children had attended tap dances. I think my
6 children only attended there for less than -- I’m
7 being generous if I say five months. It was only
8 months.
9 But my relationship with Miss Kennedy and
10 Mr. Kennedy continued. She’d come and pick me up
11 and take me to like, for example, a Christian
12 crusade to the Anaheim Convention Center. She’d
13 come and pick me up and take me to a variety of
14 churches in South Central.
15 We’d pray a lot on the phone. She’d
16 continuously come and pray for Gavin in the church.
17 I mean, at -- at the hospital. And then we’d
18 request churches to pray for Gavin.
19 She took a trip to another country and she
20 inscribed Gavin’s name on somewhere where they could
21 pray continuously. It’s a place where they pray 24
22 hours. So my relationship with Miss Kennedy was
23 mostly that of spiritual.
24 Q. And she ran the dance school your children
25 attended, right?
26 A. Yes, for less -- my children -- for about
27 five months, that’s all. And that’s the best I can
28 recall. No more than five months. But my 6718
1 relationship with Miss Kennedy went on for years,
2 and Mr. Kennedy.
3 Q. And your children did attend the school on a
4 scholarship --
5 A. No.
6 Q. -- because they didn’t have funds, right?
7 A. No.
8 Q. That never happened?
9 A. That never happened.
10 Q. Okay. Now, you called her from Neverland
11 Ranch, did you not?
12 A. Yes, I did. This was another person that I
13 tried to reach.
14 Q. You called her after the airing of the
15 Bashir video and said you were at the ranch because
16 the press was causing problems, right?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You told Miss Kennedy that you wanted to get
19 out of the country, correct?
20 A. No. She would know, too, that there’s no
21 way, because she knows the extent of my son’s
22 medical needs. He needs medical care. I know he
23 looks, on the surface, healthy, but he does have
24 some serious medical issues.
25 Q. You complained to Miss Kennedy that people
26 around Michael Jackson keep everything from him and
27 he doesn’t have a clue about anything, correct?
28 A. No. 6719
1 Q. Never said that?
2 A. Never said that.
3 Q. Did you ever tell Miss Kennedy that the
4 people around Michael Jackson keep him in the dark?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you recall Miss Kennedy telling you, “Go
7 to Michael Jackson directly with these concerns”?
8 A. No.
9 Q. How many times do you think you called
10 Arlene Kennedy from Neverland Ranch?
11 A. I think maybe once.
12 Q. Are you sure about that?
13 A. Yeah. I think it was only once.
14 Q. Only one time?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. You called her many times and never
17 indicated your calls are being monitored, right?
18 A. No, I called -- I think I called her once.
19 And when I knew that they were listening, I wouldn’t
20 be able to say that, when I felt -- but, yes, I did
21 tell everybody possible when I could.
22 Q. Now --
23 A. Because I knew I was being monitored. I
24 knew it.
25 Q. I understand.
26 You mentioned that you knew Carol Lamir,
27 right?
28 A. Yes. That’s David’s girlfriend and part of 6720
Subject: April 18, 2005 
Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:23 am
