5891
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
5
6
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
13
14
15
16
17 REPORTER’S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
18
19 WEDNESDAY, APRIL 13, 2005
20
21 8:30 A.M.
22
23 (PAGES 5891 THROUGH 5948)
24
25
26
27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 5891
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
9
10
11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A.
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067
14 -and-
15 SANGER & SWYSEN
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C
17 Santa Barbara, California 93101
18 -and-
19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ.
20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs, California 90670
21 (Not Present)
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 5892
1 I N D E X
2
3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index. Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index.
6 Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index. Mr. Oxman is listed as “O” on index.
7
8
9 PLAINTIFF’S WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
10
11 JACKSON, Jay D. 5894-M 5915-Z 5927-M
12 5934-Z 5940-M
13 (Further) (Further)
14 JACKSON, Janet 5942-Z
15 (Nonjury)
16
17
18
19
20 E X H I B I T S
21 FOR IN
22 PLAINTIFF’S NO. DESCRIPTION I.D. EVID.
23
26 Photo 5939 5940
24
25
26
27
28 5893
1 Santa Maria, California
2 Wednesday, April 13, 2005
3 8:30 a.m.
4
5 THE COURT: Good morning, everyone.
6 COUNSEL AT COUNSEL TABLE: (In unison)
7 Good morning, Your Honor.
8 THE JURY: Good morning.
9 THE COURT: Counsel, you may proceed.
10 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.
11
12 JAY D. JACKSON
13 Having been previously sworn, resumed the
14 stand and testified further as follows:
15
16 CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued)
17 BY MR. MESEREAU:
18 Q. Major Jackson, you testified that at one
19 point you met Janet at a salon in Brentwood,
20 correct?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Were you in uniform?
23 A. Yes, sir, I was.
24 Q. Were you on active duty at that point?
25 A. Yes, sir.
26 Q. And were you working during the time period
27 that you visited Janet at the salon in uniform?
28 A. I had just left my job for the day. 5894
1 Q. Okay. Now, Janet began to live with you on
2 a regular basis during what month and year?
3 A. Regular basis would have been sometime after
4 November of ‘0 -- let’s see here. ‘02, I believe.
5 Q. And she certainly was living with you from
6 January through June of 2003, correct?
7 A. That is correct, less the period of time
8 between February and March where she was gone to
9 Neverland.
10 Q. Okay. But when she wasn’t visiting
11 Neverland, it was your belief that Janet and the
12 children were living with you, correct?
13 A. They were living between my house -- my
14 apartment and the Soto Street apartment.
15 Q. And most of the week, I believe you said
16 approximately five days, they would live with you,
17 correct?
18 A. Three to five days. It depended.
19 Q. Okay. And did you ever tell any
20 interviewing sheriff in this case that you were
21 supporting Janet and the children during that period
22 of time?
23 A. I don’t recollect that. You’d have to --
24 Q. Were you doing that?
25 A. There was probably in some ways I was.
26 Q. In what way were you supporting Janet and
27 the children during the period from January through
28 June of 2003? 5895
1 A. Well, of course they were sometimes staying
2 in my house, my apartment. There was food. And she
3 used my car sometimes. That’s -- you know, that’s
4 the best I can think.
5 Q. Did you ever pay her rent?
6 A. I did pay her rent for her based on the
7 money that she received.
8 Q. And the money that she received was through
9 welfare, correct?
10 A. I believe -- assistance of some form.
11 Q. And you were allowing her to deposit her
12 public assistance checks into your bank account at
13 Bank of America, correct?
14 A. Two times that occurred, I believe.
15 Q. It actually occurred more than two, did it
16 not?
17 A. Two is what I remember. But if you say it
18 was three, okay, fine, I’m not -- you know, I’m not
19 going to argue with that.
20 Q. Now, she received a welfare check from the
21 County of Los Angeles in the amount of $769 on
22 January 2nd, 2003. Do you remember that?
23 A. I remember a couple of welfare checks. I
24 don’t remember the dates, sir.
25 Q. Would it refresh your recollection to just
26 see that check?
27 A. Sure.
28 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor? 5896
1 THE COURT: Yes.
2 THE WITNESS: And that was the deposit.
3 It shows it being a deposit, correct? Not just
4 cashing?
5 MR. MESEREAU: I’m not allowed to talk.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay. I see it went into the
7 Bank of America.
8 Q. BY MR MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
9 look at the documents I just showed you?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. And did you see a check from the County of
12 Los Angeles addressed to Janet Arvizo dated January
13 2nd, 2003, in the amount of $769?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. And isn’t it true that you took that check,
16 endorsed it, and deposited it into your Bank of
17 America account? Right?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Now, your Bank of America account lists your
20 home address at 450 South St. Andrews Place, No.
21 307, in Los Angeles, correct?
22 A. That would be correct.
23 Q. And that was the address that you described
24 as being in Korea Town area of Los Angeles, true?
25 A. That is correct.
26 Q. The welfare checks going to Janet Arvizo
27 were addressed to her address at 802 North Soto
28 Street, correct? 5897
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Okay. So you did that in January. You also
3 did that -- excuse me. Let me rephrase.
4 She received a welfare check in -- on
5 February 15th, 2003, that you also endorsed and
6 deposited into your Bank of America account,
7 correct?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. And that check was in the amount of $769,
10 true?
11 A. Excuse me, yes, sir.
12 Q. That check also was addressed to Janet
13 Arvizo at 807 -- excuse me, I said 802 before --
14 807 North Soto Street, Los Angeles, true?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Now, at some point, Janet became a signatory
17 to your bank account, correct?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. She wasn’t a signatory to your bank account
20 in January and February of 2003, right?
21 A. I don’t believe she was. I’m really not
22 sure when she actually did become a signatory. I
23 know she did.
24 Q. Now, in January and February the account was
25 strictly in your name, true?
26 A. That would -- I believe that would be
27 correct, yes, sir.
28 Q. Okay. Now, on May 19th of 2003, Janet 5898
1 received a welfare check in the amount of $528.61
2 that you also appear to have deposited into your
3 account. Do you remember that?
4 A. I don’t.
5 Q. Okay. Would it refresh your recollection
6 just to see that check?
7 A. Sure.
8 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
9 THE COURT: Yes.
10 MR. ZONEN: May I see that, please?
11 THE WITNESS: Okay.
12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
13 look at that document?
14 A. Yes, I have.
15 Q. And that is a check addressed to Janet
16 Arvizo by the County of Los Angeles dated May 19th,
17 2003, correct?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. And you appear to have endorsed that check,
20 correct?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. And on that check, Janet Arvizo’s address is
23 12643 Raymer Street, El Monte, California 91723. Do
24 you see that?
25 A. Yes, sir. I would believe that that’s not a
26 welfare check. I believe it’s maybe some type of
27 public assistance. But I don’t believe it’s
28 welfare. 5899
1 Q. Was it a disability check?
2 A. I don’t know. But I don’t believe that was
3 welfare. I believe she cut that off after the
4 Jackson people closed her apartment.
5 Q. Okay. Now, approximately -- let’s see.
6 Well, on May 5th, 2003, she also got a check from
7 the County of Los Angeles for $203.54. Do you
8 remember that?
9 A. No, I don’t. It may be -- it may be child
10 support. I’m not sure.
11 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
12 it to you?
13 A. Sure.
14 Yes, sir. I believe that’s child support.
15 Q. You’ve had a chance to look at that
16 document, correct?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. The document is -- it’s a check from the
19 County of Los Angeles in the amount of $203.54,
20 right?
21 A. That’s correct.
22 Q. It’s addressed to Janet Arvizo at 12643
23 Raymer Street in El Monte, correct?
24 A. That would be correct.
25 Q. And you did endorse that check as well?
26 A. Yes, sir.
27 Q. Okay. On May 5th, 2003, Janet Arvizo
28 received a check in the amount of $268.48. Are you 5900
1 aware of that?
2 A. I’m sure it is, if you’ve got it there. I’m
3 sure it’s child support.
4 Q. And you endorsed that check as well --
5 A. Okay, sir.
6 Q. -- true?
7 Okay. Now, at some point did you learn that
8 Janet Arvizo wrote to the Los Angeles County welfare
9 authorities and said, “Stop sending me welfare”?
10 A. I believe she did, yes.
11 Q. Did you actually see the note she wrote?
12 A. No, I don’t think I did. But I believe that
13 she did. I think she told me she did.
14 Q. Now, you would agree that you were providing
15 some financial support during January and February
16 of 2003 to Janet and the family, correct?
17 A. You know what? She was depositing those
18 checks into my account and that was probably what
19 she was using for support.
20 Q. Okay. You were paying utility bills also
21 for Janet, were you not?
22 A. Was I paying utility bills?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. I may have paid a utility bill.
25 Q. Did you help the family out financially
26 during -- excuse me, let me rephrase. During
27 January and February of 2003, were you providing any
28 financial assistance to Janet Arvizo and her 5901
1 children?
2 A. If I provided support to them during that
3 period, it would have been from that welfare check.
4 Q. So let me get this straight. You know Janet
5 had a bank account at that point, didn’t she?
6 A. No, sir, I did not.
7 Q. Did she have an account anywhere, to your
8 knowledge?
9 A. Not that I’m aware of. In fact, she was
10 cashing her checks that she was receiving at one of
11 these check cashing -- and that’s the reason it
12 costs 6 or 8 or 10 percent to cash it.
13 So I asked her, I said, “Let’s cash it
14 through my account and that way you don’t lose that
15 money.”
16 Q. Okay. Okay. Do you recall writing any
17 checks on your own to Janet during those first two
18 months?
19 A. I don’t, sir.
20 Q. Do you know -- do you recall writing checks
21 to Janet at all during the early part of 2003?
22 A. I don’t.
23 Q. Okay. Did you ever provide any financial
24 assistance to the children during January, February
25 or March of 2003?
26 A. I don’t recall. If I did, I would have
27 thought it was from the welfare money.
28 Q. So your position is that the only money you 5902
1 gave Janet during January and February of 2003 was
2 welfare money she had given you?
3 A. That would be my impression. I was not -- I
4 don’t know any rules with regards to welfare. I
5 wasn’t concerned about that. She was my girlfriend,
6 they were her children. If I gave them any money it
7 was because it was out of the goodness of my heart.
8 Q. I understand that. My question to you is,
9 Janet deposited welfare checks and then child
10 support checks into your bank account at Bank of
11 America in Los Angeles, correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. And this was starting in approximately
14 January of 2003, true?
15 A. That would probably be true.
16 Q. And are you saying under oath, Major
17 Jackson, that the only money you took out of that
18 account and ever gave to Janet and the children was
19 Janet’s own money?
20 A. Could you restate the question, please, a
21 different way?
22 Q. Sure. If it’s not clear, I’ll --
23 A. Please.
24 Q. -- rephrase it.
25 Are you saying under oath that between
26 January 2003 and May of 2003, the only money you
27 gave Janet Arvizo out of your bank account was money
28 she had put into your account? 5903
1 A. Sir, I think I answered that, and that is,
2 is that I don’t know that answer. And that if I did
3 give her money that would have been above and beyond
4 what she was receiving, that would have been coming
5 from me out of the goodness of my heart. Because
6 she was my girlfriend and I did love her children.
7 Q. Okay. And did she tell you at some point,
8 “I want to deposit welfare checks into you, Major
9 Jay Jackson’s back account”?
10 A. No, sir. I’m the one that said, “Why don’t
11 we put it into my account because it’s -- it will
12 save you a little bit of money, from what little bit
13 of money you do get.”
14 Q. Okay. Did you ever look at any of Janet
15 Arvizo’s welfare applications to Los Angeles County?
16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. Did she ever ask you to prepare one of those
18 applications?
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. Do you know whether or not she was honest on
21 any application she sent to Los Angeles County
22 involving requests for public assistance?
23 A. Janet’s pretty honest, but I don’t know that
24 to be a fact.
25 Q. Okay. Now, during --
26 May I take just one second, Your Honor, to
27 look through --
28 THE COURT: Yes. 5904
1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: During the time that Janet
2 Arvizo was living at your home --
3 A. My apartment.
4 Q. Your apartment. That was your home, right?
5 A. It’s where I lived.
6 Q. Okay. And we’re talking about the period
7 starting in January of 2003, you were being paid by
8 the United States Government, correct?
9 A. That would be correct.
10 Q. And your base pay was $5,310.60, correct?
11 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as irrelevant.
12 THE COURT: Overruled.
13 THE WITNESS: Sir, I don’t have that in
14 front of me. But if that’s what my LES says, then
15 that’s correct.
16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Would it refresh your
17 recollection if I just show you the document we
18 subpoenaed from the Army?
19 A. Sure.
20 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes. Okay.
23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
24 look at that document?
25 A. Yes, sir.
26 Q. Have you seen that document before?
27 A. I see my LES monthly.
28 Q. Okay. And let me restate the amount. The 5905
1 amount went up.
2 Well, the amount of base pay you were
3 receiving effective January of 2003 was $5,528.40
4 per month, correct?
5 A. That would be correct.
6 Q. Okay. The amount of base pay you received
7 in February of 2003 from the United States
8 Government was also $5,528.40 per month, correct?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. And the amount of base pay you received from
11 the United States Government in March of 2003 was
12 $5,528.40 per month, correct?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. And the amount of base pay you received in
15 April of 2003 from the United States Government was
16 $5,528.40 per month, correct?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether or not you ever
19 requested any type of housing allowance or
20 assistance from the United States Government because
21 Janet Arvizo and her three children were living with
22 you?
23 A. It would not matter. I could not request
24 assistance from the government unless I married her.
25 Q. Okay.
26 A. So that would have occurred in May of ‘04.
27 Q. Okay. So you didn’t do it anytime in 2003?
28 A. No, sir, I wouldn’t have been able to. It 5906
1 wouldn’t have mattered if I did it, and I wouldn’t
2 have done it.
3 Q. Okay. Okay. Was it your understanding
4 Janet Arvizo had no other bank accounts on her
5 own -- excuse me, that’s a poor question. Let me
6 rephrase.
7 Was it your understanding, Major Jackson,
8 that in the months of January, February, March and
9 April of 2003, Janet Arvizo did not have any bank
10 account?
11 A. Yes, sir. That would be my recollection.
12 Q. Okay. Do you know if she ever had an
13 account at a bank called Providian?
14 A. No, sir.
15 Q. Okay. Did you ever discuss with Janet
16 Arvizo whether or not she had ever obtained any
17 money from a J.C. Penney settlement?
18 A. She -- no, sir, she did not talk about it.
19 I started learning about it through the news.
20 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not, during
21 January, February, March or April of 2003, Janet
22 Arvizo was making any deposits in her mother’s
23 account at Sanwa Bank?
24 A. I’m not aware of that, sir.
25 Q. Were you ever aware of any account that
26 Janet Arvizo had set up at any bank involving moneys
27 she had obtained for the benefit of Gavin?
28 A. No, sir. 5907
1 Q. Okay. And were you ever involved in any
2 fund-raising efforts for Gavin?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. Okay. Now, are you saying that the money
5 you received every month during January, February,
6 March or April was not used for the benefit of Janet
7 or the children?
8 MR. ZONEN: Objection; vague. His paycheck?
9 MR. MESEREAU: Yes.
10 I’ll rephrase it. Counsel’s correct.
11 THE WITNESS: Please.
12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: The base pay you earned
13 from the United States Government in January,
14 February, March and April of 2003 was never used
15 directly or indirectly for the benefit of Janet or
16 the children, correct?
17 A. Cannot answer that question with accuracy.
18 Q. Okay. You testified yesterday that at one
19 point Janet Arvizo went to court in downtown Los
20 Angeles to deal with her domestic issues involving
21 her ex-husband David, correct?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Do you know approximately when that was?
24 A. That would have been right around the time
25 of -- it would have been in the middle of March.
26 Q. Okay. Would that be March of 2003?
27 A. Yes, sir.
28 Q. Did you know -- excuse me. Did you know 5908
1 whether or not Janet Arvizo filed an income and
2 expense declaration in that court case that you’ve
3 just described?
4 A. No, sir, I do not.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. I did not. I’m not even sure what that is.
7 Q. Was any of the welfare money or child
8 support money that was deposited into your bank
9 account during January, February, March, April of
10 2003 ever used for your benefit?
11 A. No, sir.
12 Q. Okay. And do you know whether or not Janet
13 Arvizo ever disclosed to welfare authorities and the
14 County of Los Angeles that you were helping her pay
15 rent?
16 A. I do not know. I just know that when the
17 apartment got taken away from her by Michael
18 Jackson’s assistants, she apparently at that time
19 wrote a letter to them and just cancelled her
20 welfare.
21 Q. That’s not really answering my question,
22 now, is it? That’s something that you just wanted
23 to tell the jury, correct?
24 A. Okay.
25 MR. ZONEN: Objection; argumentative.
26 THE COURT: Counsel --
27 MR. MESEREAU: I withdraw it.
28 Q. Let’s talk about the checks you wrote to 5909
1 Mr. Trujillo when you were paying her rent at her
2 apartment.
3 A. All right.
4 Q. Do you know whether or not Janet Arvizo ever
5 disclosed the rental payments you were making on her
6 behalf to welfare authorities in Los Angeles?
7 A. Sir, I believe that those checks that I
8 wrote to Mr. Trujillo for her apartment on Soto
9 Street were in relations to the welfare checks that
10 she was receiving in the January, February time
11 frame.
12 Q. So what you’re saying, Major Jackson, under
13 oath to this jury, is that you can guarantee that
14 the rent checks you wrote to Mr. Trujillo on behalf
15 of Janet Arvizo to pay rent came directly from her
16 welfare checks; is that true?
17 A. I remember -- you need a “yes” or “no”?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Okay. I can’t answer that “yes” or “no.”
20 Q. Okay. All right. Do you know whether Janet
21 Arvizo ever disclosed the financial assistance you
22 were giving her on her income and expense
23 declaration that she filed in her domestic case --
24 domestic relations case with David?
25 A. Did I not answer that already, sir? I said
26 I don’t even know what that document is, so I did
27 not know that.
28 Q. Okay. And you didn’t help her ever prepare 5910
1 a document like that, correct?
2 A. No, sir, I did not.
3 Q. Okay. Do you recall during January,
4 February, and March of 2003 whether or not Janet
5 Arvizo was depositing any checks into your account
6 other than welfare and child support?
7 A. Well, she probably -- the child support
8 began at some point after that, but I’m not sure.
9 I’m not clear when that started, so I don’t want to
10 say it started in March. But it was soon
11 thereafter, I think.
12 Q. Do you recall, during January, February,
13 March and April of 2003, endorsing for deposit any
14 checks written to Janet Arvizo that were other than
15 welfare and child support?
16 A. Not that I’m aware of.
17 Q. Okay. During January, February, March and
18 April of 2003, were you aware of any bank account
19 Janet had set up at a bank called Washington Mutual
20 in Los Angeles?
21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. During January, February, March and April of
23 2003, to your knowledge, was Janet Arvizo driving an
24 automobile?
25 A. No, sir, she was not.
26 Q. Did you ever learn at some point that she
27 had purchased an automobile?
28 A. I -- I believe at some point she later told 5911
1 me that she had put some money down on a car and
2 then opted out of it.
3 Q. Do you know when that was?
4 A. I don’t.
5 Q. Okay. During January, February, March and
6 April of 2003, to your knowledge, did Janet Arvizo
7 ever obtain any disability assistance from the
8 state?
9 A. Not that I’m aware of.
10 Q. Okay. And during January, February, March
11 and April of 2003, to your knowledge, did Janet
12 Arvizo ever obtain any food stamp assistance?
13 A. I did see food stamps, yes, sir.
14 Q. Okay. And was that during the time she was
15 living with you?
16 A. That was the time that she was visiting me
17 at Bundy, and that was prior to November of ‘02.
18 And I’m not sure exactly when that stopped.
19 Q. Okay. Were you -- excuse me. Did you know
20 Janet Arvizo in November of 2001?
21 A. No, sir, I did not.
22 Q. Okay. When did you first meet her?
23 A. July of 2002.
24 Q. Now, in January, February, March and April
25 of 2003, were Davellin, Gavin and Star living at
26 your apartment at least part of the week?
27 A. Well, during -- of course in February and
28 March they were gone almost the entire time. At 5912
1 least through the middle of March. But January,
2 some of February and March, Davellin was not living
3 with us, and Star and Gavin were living with us when
4 they were -- when Janet was there.
5 Q. Okay. All right. And what I think you’ve
6 told the jury is that Janet wanted to keep the Soto
7 Street apartment but Mr. Jackson’s people prevented
8 that; is that what you’re saying?
9 A. I know that -- I believed that we wanted to
10 keep the apartment, so that is what I say, is that
11 before she was whisked off to Miami, our intention
12 was for her to keep the Soto Street apartment.
13 Q. Okay. When the Soto Street apartment was no
14 longer rented by Janet, did she and the children
15 live with you full time?
16 A. When the Jackson people shut down the
17 apartment, she moved into my apartment after she
18 left Neverland.
19 Q. Okay. Did you ever wonder why someone on
20 welfare wanted two residences?
21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. Did you ever discuss with any prosecutor
23 before you testified in this trial your having
24 deposited Janet’s welfare checks into your account
25 at Bank of America?
26 A. No, sir. It wouldn’t have been an issue.
27 Q. How do you know?
28 A. It’s not an issue. 5913
1 MR. ZONEN: Objection; argumentative.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 THE WITNESS: What does that have to do with
4 anything?
5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you ever discussed
6 with any prosecutor before you testified in this
7 trial anything about Janet’s obtaining welfare
8 assistance while she lived with you?
9 A. Wasn’t my concern, sir.
10 Q. Has any prosecutor or sheriff ever showed
11 you before you testified in this trial any documents
12 relating to any kind of public assistance Janet
13 Arvizo was receiving at any time from the County of
14 Los Angeles?
15 A. No, sir, not that I recall.
16 Q. And has anyone associated with any
17 prosecutor ever spoke to you on the phone about
18 Janet Arvizo’s receiving public assistance while
19 associated with you?
20 A. Not that I can remember, no.
21 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, was Janet Arvizo
22 receiving any welfare checks in the year 2002?
23 A. I don’t know, sir.
24 Q. Do you recall depositing any of Janet
25 Arvizo’s welfare checks into your bank account
26 during the year 2002?
27 A. If you have that, then I guess I did. I
28 just don’t remember. 5914
1 Q. Okay. Did you have any discussion with
2 Janet at any time about why welfare checks were
3 going through your sole account?
4 A. Please restate the question.
5 Q. Sure. Did you ever have any discussions
6 with Janet Arvizo at any time as to why welfare
7 checks were being deposited into your sole account?
8 A. Any check that would have been deposited in
9 my account would have been to save her money from
10 putting it through one of those check cashing places
11 that charge 6 to 8 to 10 percent.
12 Q. Did you ever wonder why Janet didn’t have
13 her own bank account, to your knowledge?
14 A. No, sir, I didn’t.
15 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions at this
16 time.
17 THE COURT: All right. Redirect?
18
19 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. ZONEN:
21 Q. Mr. Jackson, Major Jackson, good morning.
22 A. Good morning, Mr. Zonen.
23 Q. Do you recall the phone number that you had
24 when you were living at the St. Andrews apartment?
25 This is a challenge, isn’t it?
26 A. Yes, it is.
27 Q. Would it help you to recall that phone
28 number if I were to show you a phone bill? 5915
1 A. Yes, sir, it would.
2 MR. ZONEN: May I approach the witness?
3 I’m just going to show you something.
4 THE WITNESS: Okay. Yes, sir. That is.
5 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Tell us what that phone
6 number is.
7 A. Oh, great. (213) -- (213) 739-9279.
8 Q. You now remember that?
9 A. Yes, sir, I do. But don’t walk away and ask
10 me again.
11 Q. Mr. Mesereau had asked you questions about
12 checks that you deposited into your account. Do you
13 know where your wife, then your girlfriend, Janet
14 Arvizo, was depositing checks that she was receiving
15 for public assistance at that time?
16 A. She wasn’t. She wasn’t depositing them, as
17 far as I know. She was cashing them at check
18 cashing places.
19 Q. Do you know which places she was going to?
20 A. Not always. Sometimes we’d be going down
21 the road and we’d stop at one of them on the side of
22 the road.
23 Q. Did you have a discussion with her about the
24 cost of doing that?
25 A. Yes, I did. That was the whole issue. I
26 said, “They’re charging you 6 or 8 percent to do
27 that. Why don’t you just deposit it into my account
28 and I’ll either write the check for your bills or 5916
1 I’ll give you the money.” I’m not sure which one I
2 did.
3 Q. Mr. Mesereau asked you about paying her
4 rent.
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. How were you doing that? Where was the
7 money coming from that you were writing checks?
8 A. From my Bank of America account.
9 Q. All right. And then the money that was
10 coming into your account from the welfare check?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Was that covering it?
13 A. Yes, sir. I believe the check was like 425.
14 Q. Give us a sense. The rent was about how
15 much per month?
16 A. 425.
17 Q. And the public assistance check was about
18 how much?
19 A. 700-some.
20 Q. And then did you write checks for utilities
21 as well?
22 A. I believe I did. But I’m not absolutely
23 positive.
24 Q. Was that covered as well by the amount of
25 the welfare checks?
26 A. Yes, sir, it was.
27 Q. Do you know how she was paying her utility
28 bills before? 5917
1 A. I don’t.
2 Q. Did you ever see a checking account in her
3 name?
4 A. No, sir, I did not.
5 Q. Did you ever see her sit down and write a
6 check?
7 A. No, sir, I didn’t.
8 Q. Did you ever see her with her own car during
9 the time that you were dating her?
10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. Do you know how she was getting back and
12 forth?
13 A. Bus.
14 Q. When you met her -- you met her at a -- one
15 of the kid’s military events, is that correct?
16 A. That’s correct. Where I worked.
17 Q. And where you were working at that time was
18 where?
19 A. It’s at 311 COS-COM in Los Angeles, West Los
20 Angeles, in the Sea Cadet Command and located within
21 the building.
22 Q. And what would be involved in taking a bus
23 from where she was living at that location?
24 A. You know what? I don’t know how long it
25 would take. But it was quite a long distance, so
26 probably several hours to get there.
27 Q. At any time during the time that you were
28 dating, did you see her drive her own car? 5918
1 A. No, sir, she never had her own car.
2 Q. You said that both of you wanted to maintain
3 the Soto Street apartment in East Los Angeles?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. Tell us why.
6 A. Primarily it gave her a good place to go to
7 when she was visiting her mother. She had some
8 stuff that she had in the apartment that she was
9 storing. And basically she just didn’t want to give
10 that apartment up because she really didn’t feel
11 that she was living with me. She was living there.
12 But she was visiting me.
13 Q. Do you know when it was that she sent a
14 letter that discontinued her welfare?
15 A. I don’t, sir. I don’t know exactly. I just
16 heard about it.
17 Q. If I were to show you a copy of that letter,
18 would that refresh your recollection?
19 A. It may. I’m not sure.
20 MR. ZONEN: May I approach the witness?
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: Actually, I have seen that
23 letter.
24 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Does that letter refresh your
25 recollection?
26 A. Yes, sir.
27 Q. And what is your recollection?
28 A. You know, just -- I remember the letter, but 5919
1 I’m not even sure when I saw it.
2 Q. Do you remember when you stopped depositing
3 welfare checks into your account?
4 A. I don’t know exactly when I stopped, because
5 there were -- the child support payments coming in,
6 so I was not concerned about it. I didn’t know
7 there was an issue with a welfare check versus a
8 child support check versus anything else.
9 Q. Were the child support checks of a different
10 amount than the welfare check?
11 A. Yes, sir, they were.
12 Q. Was the welfare check pretty consistently in
13 the seven hundred --
14 THE COURT: They’re not hearing you, Counsel.
15 MR. ZONEN: I’m sorry.
16 Q. The question previously was --
17 THE BAILIFF: Is your microphone on?
18 THE COURT: He had his book on it.
19 MR. ZONEN: I had the book on it, I’m sorry.
20 I apologize.
21 Q. The welfare check, was that a fairly
22 consistent amount every month?
23 A. Yes, sir. I believe it was 700-something
24 dollars a month.
25 Q. The child support check, would that vary or
26 was that consistent as well?
27 A. That varied. Always low.
28 Q. The amount -- the check that Mr. Mesereau 5920
1 showed you that was in May --
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. -- did you believe that was a child support
4 check?
5 A. I’m sure it’s a child support check.
6 MR. ZONEN: Your Honor, I’m going to ask
7 the Court take judicial notice of the fact that
8 February 15, 2003, is a Saturday, February 16, 2003,
9 is a Sunday. And I have a copy of the calendar to
10 furnish the Court.
11 MR. MESEREAU: Sure. Sure.
12 THE COURT: No objection?
13 MR. MESEREAU: No objection, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: All right. I’ll take judicial
15 notice of those dates and days.
16 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: You were asked yesterday by
17 Mr. Mesereau whether or not the children went to
18 school on February 15 and February 16 of 2003. Did
19 the children traditionally attend school on Saturday
20 and Sunday?
21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. I’d like to ask you questions about your
23 discussion with Frank, wherein he offered you a
24 house, and he offered you children’s education,
25 subsequently then asked if you were still waiting
26 for a house.
27 A. Right.
28 Q. Tell me about your view of that offering of 5921
1 a house. How did you take it at the time he offered
2 it?
3 A. The time -- the way I took it was, he wasn’t
4 offering to show me the contract. The bottom line
5 was I really did not believe him. I did not believe
6 that he was going to give us a house. I did not
7 believe that he was going to give a college
8 education. All of this was just -- just talk.
9 That’s the way I felt about it at the time.
10 Q. Why did you want to see the contract?
11 A. I wanted to see what it is -- what it was
12 that the family was being required to do, and what
13 rights they were signing away.
14 Q. You had the opportunity to listen to the
15 tape of the Miller interview, that interview that
16 took place in your home on presumably the 16th of
17 February?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. At the very beginning everybody introduced
20 themselves and you were not one of them; is that
21 correct?
22 A. That’s correct.
23 Q. Were you a witness to that particular event?
24 A. I did watch parts of it.
25 Q. Were you not asked to introduce yourself?
26 A. No, sir, I was not.
27 Q. Were you still in the room at that time?
28 A. Yes, sir, I was in the room. 5922
1 Q. Did you leave the room at different times?
2 A. I did, sir.
3 Q. At one point you were asked by Mr. Mesereau
4 whether or not you stated to the grand jury that you
5 watched the entire proceedings?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. At another time he said, “Did you state to
8 the grand jury whether you had listened to the
9 entire proceedings?”
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Did you listen to the entire proceedings?
12 A. No, sir. In fact, when they played, I
13 didn’t really know much of anything was on there.
14 I don’t recall.
15 Q. I’m sorry. Is there anything that you heard
16 on that tape that you do recall?
17 A. The only thing that I do recall is
18 something -- they were praising Michael Jackson,
19 saying he didn’t touch them, something to that
20 effect.
21 Q. At any time did you make an attempt to
22 discuss with Janet Arvizo at the time, during this
23 February and March period when she was at Neverland,
24 what was going on?
25 A. Janet did not talk much. She would not
26 explain to me why she was emotional, why she was
27 crying. She wouldn’t tell me what was going on
28 during this period. 5923
1 Q. Did you make an attempt to contact police
2 during that time?
3 A. Yes, sir, I did.
4 Q. Who did you call?
5 A. After a short phone call with Janet where
6 she appeared to be under duress, I made a phone call
7 to the Santa Barbara Police Department. It was late
8 at night. And they transferred me to the Santa
9 Barbara Sheriff’s Department.
10 Q. And did you talk with a deputy at the
11 sheriff’s department?
12 A. I talked to a sergeant.
13 Q. Do you know his name?
14 A. McCadden, I think. McCadden or something
15 like that.
16 Q. Did you tell him about what was going on?
17 A. I was confused. I did not know what was
18 happening. I talked to him. I initially tried to
19 explain to him that I had a family that was at
20 Neverland, and they appeared to be under duress.
21 He didn’t want to believe -- you know, “Is
22 this a crank phone call? What was going on?” You
23 know, I tried to say, “Look, I’m in the military.
24 I’m not playing. This is” -- “They are” -- “They
25 were on T.V.”
26 Basically he finally said, “Well, why didn’t
27 she call 9-1-1?” And I said, “Well, I don’t know
28 why she didn’t call 9-1-1, because she kind of hung 5924
1 up on me, and she made some kind of statement like,
2 ‘Oh, my gosh, here he comes,’ and she hangs up on
3 me.”
4 Q. Major Jackson, the next day, did they call
5 you back, from the sheriff’s office?
6 A. Yes, sir, they did.
7 Q. And was Janet home at that point?
8 A. Janet was back in El Monte.
9 Q. And did you indicate to him that everything
10 was under control?
11 A. I did. He said, “Is she back?” I said,
12 “Yes, she is.” And that ended the conversation.
13 Q. On a couple of occasions Mr. Mesereau
14 referred to your house in West Los Angeles?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Did you have a house in West L.A.?
17 A. No, sir. I had a two-bedroom apartment.
18 Q. Was this an apartment that you lived in with
19 Janet Arvizo?
20 A. Yes, sir, I did.
21 Q. And how many of her children?
22 A. Two of her children. Gavin and Star.
23 Q. And where was Davellin living at that time?
24 A. She was living with her grandmother.
25 Q. Did she visit?
26 A. Yes, she did. Pretty much every weekend.
27 Q. So she was there for the weekend?
28 A. Yes, sir. 5925
1 Q. You indicated just now that -- or earlier
2 this morning, that at some point, Janet Arvizo
3 became a signatory to your account?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Do you know when that was? Were you already
6 married?
7 A. You know, I’m not clear on that. It may
8 have been after we got married. But I’m just not
9 sure.
10 Q. Mr. Mesereau asked you about amounts of
11 money that you were making and described it as base
12 pay. What does that mean, base pay?
13 A. Base pay is -- in the military, you’re given
14 base pay, which is your -- basically your salary,
15 which is taxable. And then you’re given a housing
16 allowance, which is nontaxable. And you’re also
17 given a food allowance, which is nontaxable.
18 Q. The base pay that was described, was that
19 the amount of money that you received before or
20 after taxes?
21 A. Before taxes.
22 Q. So taxes are deducted from that amount of
23 money?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Mr. Mesereau asked you about a Washington
26 Mutual account established in 2003. Are you aware
27 of any such account?
28 A. No, sir. 5926
1 Q. Did Janet ever mention to you a Washington
2 Mutual account?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. Did she ever write a check on it in your
5 presence?
6 A. No, sir. I never saw a checkbook.
7 Q. I’m sorry?
8 A. I never saw a checkbook.
9 Q. You never saw a checkbook.
10 A. So I know nothing about it.
11 MR. ZONEN: Thank you. I have no further
12 questions.
13
14 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. MESEREAU:
16 Q. Major Jackson, you called the police on
17 Tuesday, February 11th, 2003, correct?
18 A. I don’t have the specific date in front of
19 me, but I believe it was right around that time,
20 yes, sir.
21 Q. You told the police your girlfriend had
22 flown to Florida with her children, right?
23 A. Miami, correct.
24 Q. Okay. You told the police that you’d
25 received several telephone calls from her during the
26 last few days, right?
27 A. Correct.
28 Q. Okay. And you were concerned about her 5927
1 welfare, correct?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. You then -- after discussing the situation
4 with the police, you and the police officer
5 concluded that Janet appeared to have unfettered
6 access to a phone, true?
7 A. That she had called me, absolutely, yes,
8 sir.
9 Q. Okay. And after your initial call, you
10 received a call back from the police, true?
11 A. After talking to the police, Janet called me
12 back and I told the police officer to call me back.
13 Q. Okay. And a police officer called you back,
14 correct?
15 A. He did.
16 Q. You told the police officer in that
17 conversation that Janet didn’t think a 9-1-1 call
18 was needed, true?
19 A. I did not tell him that.
20 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
21 you a copy of the police report?
22 A. I’ve seen the police report.
23 Q. You’re aware of what the police officer says
24 you said, correct?
25 A. I am.
26 Q. And you’re saying you never told the police
27 officer, “Ventura does not think a 9-1-1 call is
28 needed at this time”? 5928
1 A. I told the police officer that Janet said
2 she was going to be leaving the property in a
3 vehicle at twelve o’clock, and that could the police
4 intercept the vehicle. And his response was, is,
5 “We cannot intercept a vehicle.”
6 Q. Do you remember telling the police officer
7 in that second conversation, “Jackson said he did
8 not think Ventura was in any danger”?
9 A. No, sir, I don’t.
10 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
11 you the police report?
12 A. I’ve seen -- I’ve seen the police report.
13 Q. You’ve seen the words he wrote about what
14 you told him?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. So you know the police officer claims you
17 said, “Ventura is not in any danger,” correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And you’re denying saying that, true?
20 A. I’m denying saying that.
21 Q. Okay. Now, you told the jury at one point
22 Janet left the property, correct?
23 A. Please repeat the question.
24 Q. Yes. At one point, after your call to the
25 police, Janet left the property, right?
26 A. That is correct.
27 Q. And when was that?
28 A. She called me early in the morning, so it 5929
1 was sometime that night.
2 Q. Okay. And is that the night of the day you
3 made the phone call?
4 A. I made the phone call late at night, so it
5 was early that morning.
6 Q. And -- okay. So early that morning, she
7 left Neverland?
8 A. She left Neverland.
9 Q. And how did she leave Neverland; do you
10 know?
11 A. I don’t know for sure. I know she went to
12 El Monte.
13 Q. And you also learned that shortly after
14 that, she went back to Neverland, right?
15 A. After that she came back to my apartment.
16 Q. And did she then go back to Neverland again?
17 A. She received a bunch of phone calls from
18 Frank.
19 Q. Please answer my question, Major.
20 A. Yes, sir, she did go back to Neverland.
21 Q. Okay. And approximately when did she go
22 back to Neverland again?
23 A. It was probably a couple of days. I don’t
24 have a specific -- it was probably two days.
25 Q. Okay. So you call the police. They don’t
26 do anything?
27 A. Correct.
28 Q. You deny what they claim you said to them, 5930
1 that she wasn’t in danger, correct?
2 MR. ZONEN: Objection. Argumentative and
3 asked and answered.
4 THE COURT: Sustained; asked and answered.
5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: She leaves the next day
6 from Neverland, right?
7 A. She leaves in the middle of the night.
8 Q. Okay. And goes to El Monte?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And then to your place, right?
11 A. Not that day, the next day.
12 Q. And then goes back to Neverland, right?
13 A. Bunch of phone calls, and she --
14 Q. Goes back?
15 A. Goes back to Neverland.
16 Q. And then when does she leave Neverland
17 again, to your knowledge?
18 A. She leaves Neverland that same day, same
19 night. She comes back late at night, by herself.
20 Q. And does she ever go back to Neverland
21 again?
22 A. After some phone calls, about every 15
23 minutes getting phone calls from Frank --
24 Q. I’m just asking you the question, Major, did
25 she ever go back to Neverland again?
26 A. Yes, sir, she did.
27 Q. After your calls to the police, she leaves
28 Neverland and goes back three times; is that 5931
1 correct?
2 A. She left Neverland -- I’d have to count it
3 up.
4 Q. Sound like three times to you?
5 MR. ZONEN: Objection. Asked and answered;
6 argumentative.
7 THE COURT: Overruled.
8 You may answer.
9 THE WITNESS: Okay. I believe it was two
10 times. One time she returned with her family. The
11 same night she showed back up, and then she returned
12 again to Neverland.
13 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: How many times after your
14 call to the police do you believe Janet left
15 Neverland?
16 A. The night that she -- that I made the phone
17 call to the police, she left that night. Came back
18 to my apartment. Went back to Neverland, and came
19 back again that night, so there was two times.
20 Q. Did she ever go back a third time, to your
21 knowledge?
22 A. She did go back.
23 Q. So then she then left a third time?
24 A. You’re giving me the numbers here. Let’s
25 see. She -- she came back, she left Neverland, went
26 to El Monte. All right. So that’s leaving
27 Neverland once.
28 Q. Right. 5932
1 A. She came to my apartment.
2 Q. Right.
3 A. Lots of phone calls. Went back to
4 Neverland. Came back that night. Okay. Again,
5 bunch of phone calls, and she returned back to
6 Neverland. So that would be three times, yes.
7 Q. Okay. And every time she left Neverland,
8 how was she transported? Do you have any idea?
9 A. How she left Neverland?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. I don’t have any idea, no, sir.
12 Q. Do you know who drove her every time she
13 left Neverland?
14 A. I think I learned this after the fact, but I
15 think Chris Carter brought her to my apartment when
16 she came by herself.
17 Q. Every time she left Neverland someone
18 employed by Mr. Jackson drove her, correct?
19 A. I -- I’m not clear on that, but I think
20 that’s probably true.
21 MR. ZONEN: Objection; speculative.
22 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. No further questions.
23 MR. ZONEN: I’d ask to reopen on an area that
24 is beyond the scope of the redirect examination,
25 very briefly.
26 THE COURT: All right.
27 //
28 // 5933
1 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. ZONEN:
3 Q. Major Jackson, following Janet’s return to
4 your home on the final occasion --
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. -- in March at this point, were you witness
7 to any contacts from anybody by the name of Johnny?
8 A. Johnny, yes, sir, I was.
9 Q. All right. And who do you understand Johnny
10 to be?
11 A. Johnny was supposedly either a security
12 detail for Michael Jackson or somebody -- somebody
13 that worked for Michael Jackson.
14 Q. And where did you see him?
15 A. I saw him on several occasions.
16 Q. And where was the first one?
17 A. The first time, I believe, is once the
18 family returned back to my apartment on St. Andrews
19 Place, Johnny apparently was showing up at the
20 apartment and banging on the door, and the family
21 was scared.
22 She -- Janet called me at work. And I
23 rushed home, and I got into the apartment and -- I
24 mean, the kids were holding knives. They were
25 scared to death. And then all of a sudden we get a
26 knock on the door and I opened the door, it’s
27 Johnny. So I slammed the door behind us, because I
28 was concerned what he may do. And him and I were 5934
1 standing right nose to nose looking at each other,
2 and I’m like, “What do you want?” And he said, “I
3 just want to know how the children are.” I said,
4 “Well, the children are fine. Get off the
5 property.”
6 So he kind of looked at me and just walked
7 away, so he left that day.
8 Q. When’s the next time you saw him?
9 A. Again, my wife called me from -- at work,
10 and at that time I guess she was my girlfriend, and
11 said, “Johnny is back.”
12 So I came back home. Came home again, and
13 this was early evening. It was dusk. I pulled into
14 the -- into the carport, and the -- and the garage
15 door closes. It’s like a chain-link fence. And I
16 look out, and across the street is this guy trying
17 to hide behind a car. And from a distance, it looks
18 like Johnny. So of course --
19 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive and
20 narrative.
21 THE COURT: Narrative; sustained.
22 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did you go out to look at the
23 person behind the car?
24 A. Yes, sir, I did. I walked out towards him
25 and he immediately took off.
26 Q. Were you able to see him?
27 A. He had the same makeup and build of Johnny,
28 but I cannot say for a fact it was Johnny. 5935
1 Q. Did you see what kind of car he was driving?
2 A. No, sir, I did not. He ran behind a
3 building and took off.
4 Q. When was the next time you saw him?
5 A. The next time was, Janet was concerned about
6 the children going back to school because the
7 Jackson folks had her passports for the children.
8 So she did not want -- let me back up. She went to
9 the school. She was scared the children would be
10 taken.
11 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Objection; move
12 to strike.
13 THE COURT: Stricken.
14 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Tell us the next time you saw
15 Johnny.
16 A. I saw Johnny at John Burroughs Middle
17 School.
18 Q. About how long was this after Janet and the
19 children returned to your home?
20 A. Two or three days.
21 Q. Where did you see him at the school?
22 A. I pulled in with Janet, we parked. I walked
23 up to the breezeway where the children come out,
24 because we didn’t want them to be snatched, and --
25 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Move to strike;
26 nonresponsive.
27 THE COURT: Sustained. The last part’s
28 stricken. 5936
1 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: You walked up to the
2 breezeway. What did you see?
3 A. Okay. I was standing there waiting for the
4 children. Janet came running up to me and she said,
5 “Johnny is here.” So I immediately ran out back to
6 the car, grabbed a camera out of the car, because I
7 wanted to get some kind of documentation that this
8 guy was stalking this family.
9 And I ran up to his car, and he was in an
10 old 280Z or 280ZX. And I was -- I was kind of -- my
11 adrenaline was flowing, so I didn’t turn the camera
12 on, but I ran up to him and I acted like I was
13 taking pictures of him.
14 And, you know, John Burroughs, it’s a very
15 tight situation there. Once you get in, you can
16 hardly get out, and so he’s slinging the gears back
17 and forth, trying to get away, but he can’t get out,
18 because it’s all blocked up.
19 So I continued to take pictures of him, then
20 I ran back over to the school, and I saw one of the
21 counselors by the name of Mr. Davies. And I said,
22 “Mr. Davies, there is a guy out here who is stalking
23 Gavin and Star.” And I don’t know whether he saw
24 that guy or not.
25 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
26 narrative.
27 THE COURT: As to the last sentence, I’ll
28 strike it. 5937
1 THE WITNESS: Okay. So --
2 THE COURT: Ask the next question.
3 MR. ZONEN: Yes.
4 Q. Did you point out Johnny to Mr. Davies?
5 A. Yes, sir, I did.
6 Q. Were you actually in a position where you
7 could see Johnny at that time?
8 A. Let me back up. I did not point him out. I
9 said, “There is a guy out in the parking lot driving
10 a 280Z that is stalking the children.”
11 Q. Okay. Did you give him a description of
12 that vehicle?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Okay. Including the color of the vehicle?
15 A. And -- I’m sure I did. I can’t remember now
16 in my mind. And maybe it was a dirty gray or blue,
17 but that’s speculation at this point. I don’t
18 remember the color.
19 Q. Did you give him a description of Johnny at
20 all?
21 A. Yes, sir, I did.
22 Q. All right. Did you see Johnny again
23 thereafter?
24 A. I don’t think I saw Johnny again.
25 Q. Were you or Janet Arvizo receiving phone
26 calls during that period of time after the kids
27 finally and ultimately returned home?
28 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading. 5938
1 THE COURT: Overruled.
2 You may answer.
3 THE WITNESS: I know Janet was receiving some
4 phone calls.
5 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: All right. At which
6 residence?
7 A. At the St. Andrews apartment.
8 Q. That was your residence at the time?
9 A. That’s correct, sir.
10 Q. Were you answering any of those calls?
11 A. No, sir, I was not.
12 MR. ZONEN: Your Honor, if I could approach
13 the witness.
14 THE COURT: All right.
15 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: I’d like to show you Exhibit
16 No. 26 for identification not yet in evidence. Can
17 you tell us who this person is?
18 A. That looks like Johnny.
19 Q. Do you know his last name?
20 A. I don’t.
21 Q. How do you know his first name is “Johnny”?
22 A. Janet and the children said there’s this
23 guy, “That’s Johnny out there.”
24 Q. Is that, in fact, him?
25 A. That is.
26 Q. Does that photograph accurately depict the
27 subject matter contained -- in other words, is this
28 an accurate, although not terribly complimentary, 5939
1 photo of Johnny?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. ZONEN: Move 26 into evidence, please.
4 MR. MESEREAU: No objection.
5 THE COURT: It’s admitted.
6 MR. ZONEN: I have no further questions.
7 THE COURT: Mr. Mesereau?
8 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, thank you, Your Honor.
9
10 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. MESEREAU:
12 Q. Mr. Jackson, at some point you learned that
13 Johnny was an investigator hired by Attorney Mark
14 Geragos to see if your family and a bunch of lawyers
15 were trying to extort Michael Jackson, true?
16 A. That would be incorrect.
17 Q. You never called the police on Johnny, true?
18 A. No, sir, I did not.
19 Q. And how many times do you think you’ve seen
20 Johnny?
21 A. I have probably seen Johnny three times.
22 Q. When was the first time?
23 A. The first time would have been the night
24 that he showed up at the apartment and I confronted
25 him out in front of my apartment door.
26 Q. Okay. And then you say he took off?
27 A. He just walked away.
28 Q. Okay. 5940
1 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions.
2 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
3 MR. ZONEN: Your Honor, could I publish that
4 photograph, No. 26?
5 THE COURT: Yes.
6 THE BAILIFF: “Input 4,” please.
7 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: If you could turn around and
8 look behind you. Is that, in fact, Exhibit No. 26,
9 the person you identified as Johnny?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 MR. ZONEN: Thank you. No further
12 questions.
13 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions, Your
14 Honor.
15 THE COURT: You may step down.
16 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
17 THE COURT: Is your next witness --
18 MR. ZONEN: Yes, it is.
19 THE COURT: (To the jury) The next witness
20 that is going to be called is Janet Arvizo, and it’s
21 necessary that I have a hearing outside of the
22 presence of the jury before she starts her
23 testimony.
24 So I’m going to ask you to step out and
25 we’ll call you back in shortly. We will take our
26 normal break as it occurs. So I suspect you’ll have
27 over half an hour here.
28 // 5941
1 (The following proceedings were held in
2 open court outside the presence and hearing of the
3 jury:)
4
5 MR. ZONEN: Did you want the witness in the
6 courtroom?
7 THE COURT: Yes.
8 Come to the front of the courtroom, please.
9 When you get to the witness stand, please remain
10 standing. Face the clerk and raise your right hand.
11
12 JANET JACKSON
13 Having been sworn, testified as follows:
14
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and
17 spell your name for the record.
18 THE WITNESS: My name is Janet Jackson.
19 Spelled J-a-n-e-t, J-a-c-k-s-o-n.
20 THE CLERK: Thank you.
21
22 DIRECT EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. ZONEN:
24 Q. Mrs. Jackson, are you formerly known as
25 Janet Ventura and then Janet Arvizo?
26 A. Yes, sir.
27 Q. And you currently go by “Mrs. Jackson”?
28 A. Yes. 5942
1 Q. And you are married to Jay Jackson?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Based on advice of counsel, have you advised
4 the District Attorney’s Office that you will be
5 asserting the Fifth Amendment privilege as to any
6 question asked of you about welfare recipience or
7 applications for welfare during the period of time
8 that you were on welfare?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Up until the time that you discontinued
11 welfare?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. ZONEN: No further questions.
14 THE COURT: Have you consulted an attorney
15 regarding your claim of privilege here?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
17 THE COURT: Is your attorney going to be here
18 today?
19 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
20 THE COURT: Did you discuss the claim of
21 privilege at length with him?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
23 THE COURT: Do you believe you have
24 sufficient knowledge to make the claim?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
26 THE COURT: Do you feel you need any other
27 legal advice concerning your claim of privilege?
28 THE WITNESS: Pardon me? 5943
1 THE COURT: Do you need any other legal
2 advice?
3 THE WITNESS: No.
4 THE COURT: What’s the District Attorney’s
5 intention as to how to deal with this?
6 MR. ZONEN: Your Honor, my understanding is
7 that this witness will answer all questions put to
8 her other than questions of her welfare application,
9 questions that she answered in her welfare
10 application or in receipt of welfare benefits.
11 We intend on proceeding with our direct
12 examination. We’re not going to ask her any
13 questions about welfare recipience. And I’m
14 assuming that the assertion of the Fifth will be
15 done at this time. And I don’t believe that --
16 well, our position is stated thereafter in our
17 pleadings.
18 THE COURT: All right. Do you, in fact,
19 make a claim under the Fifth Amendment of the United
20 States Constitution against self-incrimination?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
22 THE COURT: And to what areas do you relate
23 that claim, are you making that claim?
24 THE WITNESS: To what he said.
25 THE COURT: I’d like to hear it from you.
26 THE WITNESS: Of everything to do with the
27 welfare; the application, the process.
28 THE COURT: During what time period? 5944
1 THE WITNESS: The period of when I began
2 till I ended.
3 THE COURT: But when was that?
4 THE WITNESS: Oh, I’m sorry. That was
5 approximately October -- approximately October 2001
6 to November 2000 -- no, apologize. March 2003.
7 THE COURT: So the claim would involve -- the
8 claim of privilege would involve claims made between
9 October of 2001 and March -- through March of 2003?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
11 THE COURT: Has the District Attorney
12 considered giving this witness immunity on that
13 issue?
14 MR. ZONEN: We have -- we’re not terribly
15 interested in giving a grant of immunity.
16 THE COURT: All right. We have -- points and
17 authorities have been filed. And my thought is
18 there’s no reason for you to ask her any questions.
19 But if you think there is, tell me why.
20 MR. SANGER: I don’t believe -- Mr. Mesereau
21 will be handling the witness, but I’m handling this
22 legal issue, if we can bifurcate that, Your Honor.
23 As far as the questions right now, I don’t
24 think there’s any point in asking additional
25 questions. The factual issue is set out.
26 THE COURT: All right. What I’m going to ask
27 you to do is to step down from the witness stand,
28 and just sit behind counsel while we have argument 5945
1 on this issue.
2 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
3 MR. ZONEN: Your Honor, before we proceed,
4 the Court will note that Detective Victor Alvarez is
5 currently in court. As the Court knows, Steve Robel
6 is out on -- Sergeant Robel is out on family
7 emergency for the week. And we’ve asked the Court’s
8 indulgence to allow us to have a separate
9 investigator here during the balance of the week.
10 And I believe the Court has said we could do that
11 subject to the consent of the defense, and they’ve
12 agreed.
13 MR. MESEREAU: We don’t object to that.
14 MR. SANGER: We didn’t object to that. But
15 we did talk to Mr. Zonen about this, and we do have
16 two investigators, one in Los Angeles, and one up
17 here. Neither one is going to be here routinely,
18 but we had asked their consent to allow those two
19 investigators to -- either one to come in just one
20 at a time. Mr. Zonen would not object to that, if
21 that’s all right with the Court.
22 THE COURT: All right. Your agreement is
23 fine with me.
24 MR. SANGER: Thank you, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Maybe -- knowing you, it’s not
26 likely you’re going to complete your argument in two
27 minutes, is it?
28 (Laughter.) 5946
1 MR. SANGER: Not with that kind of
2 encouragement, Your Honor.
3 (Laughter.)
4 THE COURT: Let’s take our break. And then
5 we’ll have our argument.
6 (Recess taken.)
7 --o0o--
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 5947
1 REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE
2
3
4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE )
5 OF CALIFORNIA, )
6 Plaintiff, )
7 -vs- ) No. 1133603
8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
9 Defendant. )
10
11
12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR,
13 CSR #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby
14 certify:
15 That the foregoing pages 5894 through 5947
16 contain a true and correct transcript of the
17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled
18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at
19 said proceedings on April 13, 2005, and thereafter
20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided
21 transcription under my direction.
22 DATED: Santa Maria, California,
23 April 13, 2005.
24
25
26
27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 5948
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
5
6
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
13
14
15
16
17 REPORTER’S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
18
19 WEDNESDAY, APRIL 13, 2005
20
21 8:30 A.M.
22
23 (PAGES 5949 THROUGH 6139)
24
25
26
27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 5949
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
9
10
11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A.
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067
14 -and-
15 SANGER & SWYSEN
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C
17 Santa Barbara, California 93101
18 -and-
19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ.
20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs, California 90670
21 (Not Present)
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 5950
1 I N D E X
2
3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index. Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index.
6 Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index. Mr. Oxman is listed as “O” on index.
7
8
9 PLAINTIFF’S WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
10
11 JACKSON, Janet 5977-Z
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 5951
1 E X H I B I T S
2
3 FOR IN PLAINTIFF’S NO. DESCRIPTION I.D. EVID.
4
5 807 Handwritten Document 6051 6052
6 808 Diagram of plane interior 6070 6073
7 809 CD of telephone conversations 6111
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 5952
Subject: April 13, 2005 
Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:51 am
