4899
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
5
6
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
13
14
15
16
17 REPORTER’S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
18
19 TUESDAY, APRIL 5, 2005
20
21 8:30 A.M.
22
23 (PAGES 4899 THROUGH 4960)
24
25
26
27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 4899
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
9
10
11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A.
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067
14 -and-
15 SANGER & SWYSEN
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C
17 Santa Barbara, California 93101
18 -and-
19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ.
20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs, California 90670
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 4900
1 I N D E X
2
3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Nicola is listed as “N” on index. Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index.
6 Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index. Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index.
7 Mr. Oxman is listed as “O” on index.
8
9 PLAINTIFF’S
10 WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
11 FRANCIA, Jason 4902-M 4944-Z
12 (Cont’d)
13 KALLMAN, Kris 4949-SN
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 4901
1 Santa Maria, California
2 Tuesday, April 5, 2005
3 8:30 a.m.
4
5 THE COURT: Good morning.
6 THE JURY: (In unison) Good morning.
7 THE COURT: Mr. Mesereau?
8 MR. MESEREAU: Yes. Thank you, Your Honor.
9
10 JASON FRANCIA
11 Having been previously sworn, resumed the
12 stand and testified further as follows:
13
14 CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued)
15 BY MR. MESEREAU:
16 Q. Mr. Francia, we were discussing yesterday
17 your first interview with two police detectives
18 which took place on November 3rd, 1993, okay?
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. That’s where we left off.
21 Now, did you discuss your testimony
22 yesterday with anyone after you left the courthouse?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Who did you discuss it with?
25 A. My wife.
26 Q. Anyone else?
27 A. No.
28 Q. Did you discuss it with any prosecutor? 4902
1 A. No, I was kind of nervous. I said, “How’d
2 it go?” And they smiled and they said, “It went
3 well.”
4 Q. And which prosecutor told you that?
5 A. I can’t specifically remember, but it was
6 one of them.
7 Q. Okay. Did you discuss anything else with
8 one of them?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you talk with any sheriff about your
11 testimony?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Were you on the phone last night with anyone
14 about your testimony?
15 A. No. I did tell my pastor this morning that
16 I was on the stand, and if he could pray for me.
17 But other than that, that was it.
18 Q. Anyone else?
19 A. Nope.
20 Q. Okay. Now, yesterday you told the jury that
21 Mr. Jackson had given you some money, correct?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. And you told them he had given you
24 hundred-dollar bills, right?
25 A. Right.
26 Q. Isn’t it true that when you were originally
27 interviewed by the police, you told them that Mr.
28 Jackson would give you money each time you read a 4903
1 book?
2 A. Yeah, he also said that, as well. Yeah,
3 he’d give me $20, I think it was.
4 Q. And you told the police that you remember
5 him having a room full of books, and you said every
6 time you complete a book, he’ll pay you some money,
7 right?
8 A. I don’t remember that, but I remember
9 listening to it on the tape.
10 Q. But that was your voice on the tape,
11 correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. You also told the police that Mr.
14 Jackson told you one time that if you got A’s in
15 school, he would also pay you every time you got an
16 A, correct?
17 A. Yes. That is correct. I remember -- I
18 don’t remember him saying that, but I remember it on
19 the tape.
20 Q. And that was your voice on the tape?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Telling it to the police, correct?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Okay. When you met with the prosecutors
25 before you testified, did anyone tell you not to
26 mention that when you talked about money?
27 A. No.
28 Q. Okay. You just forgot? 4904
1 A. I’m sorry?
2 Q. You just forgot yesterday?
3 MR. ZONEN: Objection; argumentative.
4 THE COURT: Overruled.
5 You may answer.
6 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you were responding
7 the prosecutor’s questions --
8 THE COURT: Wait. He has a question pending.
9 MR. MESEREAU: Oh, I’m sorry.
10 THE COURT: I overruled the objection.
11 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the question?
12 THE COURT: The question was, “You just
13 forgot yesterday?”
14 THE WITNESS: I have no idea what you’re
15 referring to. I just forgot about what?
16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: About Mr. Jackson paying
17 you money for, one, reading a book --
18 A. No --
19 Q. -- and, two, getting A’s.
20 A. I didn’t remember that, but I remember
21 saying that on the tape.
22 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, following your interview
23 with two police officers in November of 1993, to
24 your knowledge, Mr. Jackson was never charged with a
25 crime involving anything you said, correct?
26 A. I don’t know.
27 Q. Okay. Did you ever hear anything about
28 that? 4905
1 A. I -- no.
2 Q. Okay. To this day, you’re not sure if Mr.
3 Jackson was ever charged with any crime involving --
4 A. I don’t know.
5 Q. -- what you claim happened?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. You also were interviewed a second
8 time.
9 A. There’s a hand being raised behind you guys
10 over there.
11 Q. You were interviewed a second time on March
12 24th, 1994. Do you remember that?
13 A. Again, I personally don’t remember, and I
14 didn’t even really listen to that tape, so -- and I
15 didn’t get a transcript for it either, so I didn’t
16 even review it.
17 Q. You were given a tape of your second
18 interview?
19 A. I was, but I did not listen to it.
20 Q. And who gave you that tape?
21 A. It came in the same packet as tape one and
22 with the transcript.
23 Q. Do you remember present at that interview
24 was Tom Sneddon?
25 A. I remember saying that yesterday, yeah. And
26 I also remember saying that I was unsure if he was
27 there or not.
28 Q. Okay. But you do remember now he was there, 4906
1 right?
2 A. I did not say that.
3 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just
4 show you a transcript?
5 A. Sure.
6 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
7 THE COURT: Yes.
8 THE WITNESS: Is this a transcript of ‘94?
9 MR. MESEREAU: (Nods head up and down.)
10 THE WITNESS: So these are the people that
11 were there? I -- I can’t ask that.
12 THE COURT: He’s asking you to look at that
13 and see if that refreshes your memory to see --
14 THE WITNESS: No, it does not refresh my
15 memory.
16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: So you don’t remember if
17 you were interviewed by Tom Sneddon and two district
18 attorneys in ‘94?
19 A. I remember Mike Craft being there. That was
20 the only person. And a woman being there. Other
21 than that, I cannot -- because I think that was the
22 first time I told a woman what happened.
23 Q. Do you remember someone named Lauren Weis
24 from the Los Angeles District Attorney’s Office
25 being there --
26 A. I don’t. I’m really bad at names.
27 Q. I have to complete the question. Thank you.
28 Do you remember someone named Lauren Weis 4907
1 from the Los Angeles District Attorney’s Office
2 being present at that interview?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you remember someone named Bill Hodgeman
5 from the Los Angeles District Attorney’s Office
6 being at that interview?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And you don’t remember whether or not Mr.
9 Sneddon was there, right?
10 A. I -- correct.
11 Q. Are you saying he wasn’t there, or you just
12 don’t remember?
13 A. I don’t remember whether he was there or
14 not.
15 Q. Do you remember Russ Birchim being there?
16 A. I do not.
17 Q. Do you remember your own lawyer, Terry
18 Cannon, being there?
19 A. I do not.
20 Q. Do you remember stating in that interview,
21 “They made me come out with a lot more stuff I
22 didn’t want to say. They kept pushing. I wanted to
23 get up and hit them in the head”? Do you remember
24 that?
25 A. No.
26 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
27 you the transcript of that?
28 A. Probably not. But you can show it to me 4908
1 anyway.
2 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
3 THE COURT: Yes.
4 MR. ZONEN: What page, Counsel?
5 MR. MESEREAU: 30.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
8 look at that page of the transcript?
9 A. I have.
10 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what
11 you’ve said?
12 A. No, it does not.
13 Q. Do you remember anything you said in that
14 interview at the moment?
15 A. Not really.
16 Q. Okay. All right. Do you remember in that
17 interview telling the people who were present that
18 at one point a woman came into a room where you and
19 Michael were present?
20 A. No, I do not.
21 Q. Do you remember seeing Janet Jackson on one
22 occasion?
23 A. I remember saying that, or do I remember
24 seeing her?
25 Q. Do you remember seeing her?
26 A. I think I did meet her once.
27 Q. Do you remember where you met her?
28 A. I think it was at the mansion in Encino. 4909
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. But I really -- like, I think that’s where
3 it was.
4 Q. Okay. Do you remember telling the sheriffs
5 that the first time you were tickled by Mr. Jackson
6 you think it lasted about 30 seconds?
7 A. Are we talking the first interview, second
8 interview?
9 Q. Either one.
10 A. I do not remember.
11 Q. Okay. You do remember giving more
12 information the second time, correct?
13 MR. ZONEN: “Second time?” Objection;
14 vague.
15 MR. MESEREAU: Excuse me. He’s correct.
16 I’ll withdraw it.
17 Q. You do recall giving more information during
18 your second interview than you did in your first,
19 right?
20 A. I do not recall.
21 Q. Okay. How did you meet Attorney Terry
22 Cannon?
23 A. I can’t -- I think I met them at Mike
24 Craft’s office.
25 Q. Excuse me, at whose office?
26 A. Mike Craft’s, my counselor.
27 Q. Okay. And does Terry Cannon still represent
28 you? 4910
1 A. I don’t think so, no.
2 Q. Well, you gave an interview with Mr. Zonen
3 in December of 2004, correct?
4 A. Yes. That was the first time I think I met
5 them.
6 Q. And Terry Cannon was present, correct?
7 A. You’re right.
8 Q. And Terry Cannon at that time was working
9 for the District Attorney’s Office in San Diego,
10 correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. But he still came up to act like your
13 lawyer, didn’t he?
14 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object to the expression,
15 “act like your lawyer”; vague. Or argumentative.
16 THE COURT: Well, I guess instead of “like,”
17 it might be “as.”
18 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase it, Your Honor.
19 Q. Mr. Cannon was present at your interview
20 with Ron Zonen on December 6th, 2004, right?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. At that interview, he was serving as your
23 lawyer, correct?
24 A. I don’t know.
25 Q. Do you know why he was there?
26 A. I didn’t really know. I was asked by --
27 actually, I didn’t even know how I met you guys. I
28 was asked to be there, I think, and he was there. 4911
1 Q. Okay. Did he give you any legal advice
2 before that meeting?
3 A. Actually, he said, “You don’t have to answer
4 things if you don’t want to,” but I think that was
5 just a -- man advice.
6 Q. So he was giving legal advice?
7 A. I don’t know if that’s legal advice or not.
8 Q. Did he discuss with you what you were going
9 to say in that interview?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you remember when that interview began,
12 you requested that your interview not be
13 tape-recorded?
14 A. I don’t remember that.
15 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
16 you a report on that interview?
17 A. Okay. Sure.
18 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 THE WITNESS: Okay.
21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
22 look at that report?
23 A. I read the first paragraph.
24 Q. And does it refresh your recollection that
25 you requested that your interview not be
26 tape-recorded?
27 A. It does not, but I probably said that.
28 Q. Okay. You don’t know for sure, though? 4912
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. And you had requested that Mr. Cannon
3 be present at the interview, right?
4 A. You’re going to have to show me the paper
5 probably.
6 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
7 THE COURT: Yes.
8 THE WITNESS: (Nods head up and down.)
9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
10 look at the report?
11 A. I did.
12 Q. Does it refresh your recollection that you
13 wanted Mr. Cannon present?
14 A. It does not refresh my recollection.
15 Q. Let me just try and get this straight. You
16 don’t know why Mr. Cannon was there, correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. You didn’t ask him to be there, right?
19 A. I don’t remember whether I asked for him to
20 be there or not. I probably did, only because he
21 was a friend of mine and he knows more legal stuff
22 than I do.
23 Q. Okay. Did you know he was working for a
24 District Attorney’s Office at the time?
25 A. I believe I did, because we kept in touch --
26 Q. Okay.
27 A. -- after I was 18.
28 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Zonen began that 4913
1 interview by telling you about the current case
2 involving Mr. Jackson, right?
3 A. I didn’t understand the question.
4 Q. Well, let me try and rephrase it.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. At the beginning of that interview, Mr.
7 Zonen gave you his summary of the current case
8 against Mr. Jackson, right?
9 A. I believe so.
10 Q. And he told you about a family named
11 “Arvizo,” right?
12 A. Really bad at names. If that’s -- he told
13 me about a child molestation.
14 Q. Okay. That these were the charges against
15 Mr. Jackson, right?
16 A. I believe so.
17 Q. Okay. Have you ever met Janet Arvizo?
18 A. I don’t know who that is.
19 Q. Ever met David Arvizo?
20 A. I don’t know who that is.
21 Q. Ever met Gavin Arvizo?
22 A. Oh, that -- I do know who that is. No, I
23 have not met him.
24 Q. Have you ever met Star Arvizo?
25 A. I have never met an Arvizo I don’t think.
26 Q. Never met Davellin Arvizo, correct?
27 A. Right.
28 Q. Have you ever talked to any of the Arvizo 4914
1 family on the telephone?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. But Mr. Zonen was telling you about
4 the Arvizo family, was he not?
5 A. If that’s the child’s parents, then yes.
6 Q. Incidentally, after your second interview,
7 which you don’t remember a lot about, to your
8 knowledge, no criminal charges were ever filed
9 against Mr. Jackson involving anything you had told
10 anybody, right?
11 A. I don’t know.
12 Q. You still don’t know?
13 A. I -- are you talking about ‘94, the ‘94
14 interview?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. Okay. And you’re asking if there was
17 criminal charges pressed against Michael?
18 Q. I’m asking you what you know, okay? You’ve
19 already indicated that after your ‘93 interview, no
20 criminal charges were ever filed against Mr. Jackson
21 involving anything you said, right?
22 A. I don’t know much. I don’t watch the news.
23 Q. And -- okay. And after your ‘94 interview,
24 again, no criminal charges were ever filed against
25 Mr. Jackson involving anything you said, right?
26 A. I don’t know.
27 Q. Okay. But at your ‘94 interview, you do
28 remember Terry Cannon being present, right? 4915
1 A. I don’t know. I don’t know who was present
2 other than Michael Craft in ‘94.
3 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, was it your mom’s
4 idea for you to have an attorney at that meeting?
5 A. To my knowledge, I don’t know.
6 Q. Okay. And again, just for the record, how
7 old were you --
8 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as vague as to which
9 meeting.
10 MR. MESEREAU: He’s correct. I’ll withdraw
11 it.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: To your knowledge, was it
14 your mother’s idea to have an attorney be present at
15 the March 24th, 1994, interview?
16 A. To my knowledge, I have no clue.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. When I was 13, I was really protected by my
19 mom, so I didn’t know much --
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. -- about anything.
22 Q. And certainly when you were 13, you didn’t
23 hire an attorney, someone else did, right?
24 A. I didn’t -- probably.
25 Q. Okay. Okay. Do you remember meeting with
26 Attorney Terry Cannon, with your mother, in 1994?
27 A. I do not remember, but I’m sure we did.
28 Q. Okay. All right. Do you remember meeting 4916
1 with any other attorneys that your mother had
2 retained in 1994?
3 A. Other than Terry Cannon?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. I don’t remember. But there was another
6 attorney, which is Kris Kallman.
7 Q. Okay. And Kris Kallman is the attorney who
8 represented you in a settlement with Mr. Jackson,
9 right?
10 A. I don’t know whether it was Kris or Terry.
11 Q. And Kris also represented your mother, who
12 wanted a settlement with Mr. Jackson, correct?
13 A. I don’t know.
14 Q. Now, do you know whether or not your mother
15 went to these attorneys after she learned that Mr.
16 Jackson had settled with someone named Chandler?
17 A. I do not.
18 MR. ZONEN: Objection; lack of foundation.
19 THE COURT: Court reporter, was that an
20 answer on there?
21 THE REPORTER: Yes.
22 THE COURT: I’ll overrule the objection. The
23 answer was, “I do not.”
24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Why didn’t you want your
25 interview in December of 2004 with the prosecutors
26 tape-recorded?
27 A. I don’t know.
28 Q. You don’t have any idea why you made that 4917
1 request?
2 A. Tape-recording is weird. I don’t know. No,
3 I don’t.
4 Q. Okay. Do you remember telling Prosecutor
5 Zonen in the December 2004 interview regarding the
6 first incident you described - okay? - that you and
7 Mr. Jackson were in a tickle contest? Do you
8 remember that?
9 A. I do not. I don’t know whether it was the
10 first interview or the second interview that we
11 talked about Michael molesting me.
12 Q. Well, actually, in the December interview,
13 you told Prosecutor Zonen that, in all three
14 instances that you described where you claim you
15 were inappropriately touched, every incident was
16 preceded by a tickling contest between you and Mr.
17 Jackson, right?
18 A. I don’t know.
19 Q. Would it refresh your recollection just to
20 show you the report?
21 A. You can show it to me, but I don’t know
22 whether it was the first or the second.
23 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: Okay.
26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
27 review that page of the report?
28 A. I didn’t read the whole page. I read that 4918
1 paragraph.
2 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what
3 you told Prosecutor Zonen in that December 6th,
4 2004, interview?
5 A. It doesn’t -- I don’t -- it doesn’t help
6 remembering, but --
7 Q. Well, you told him that all three events
8 that you described were preceded by a tickling
9 contest, correct?
10 A. I don’t remember.
11 Q. You and Mr. Jackson were in a contest as to
12 who could tickle the most, correct?
13 A. I just said I don’t remember that. I don’t
14 mean to sound like I’m wasting your time, but this
15 is kind of hard being up here, and --
16 Q. No, please don’t. Just respond to my
17 questions, if you would, please.
18 A. Okay. Sorry.
19 Q. Now, on November 19th, 2004, Prosecutor
20 Zonen and Auchincloss interviewed your mother at the
21 District Attorney’s Office, right?
22 A. I don’t know. Me and my mother don’t talk
23 about that stuff much.
24 Q. Well, you were present, weren’t you?
25 A. Now I remember, yes.
26 Q. Now you remember?
27 A. Yeah. I was present there.
28 Q. You not only were present, but you also 4919
1 requested that that not be tape-recorded, correct?
2 A. Probably.
3 Q. You don’t know?
4 A. I don’t know.
5 Q. Would it refresh your recollection to look
6 at that report?
7 A. No. But bring it on up.
8 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
9 THE COURT: No, he said it wouldn’t.
10 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You’re not willing to look
11 at it?
12 A. It’s not about me willing. I’m willing to
13 look at it, but it’s not going to help.
14 Q. Well, that was last November you had that
15 interview with your mom and these prosecutors,
16 correct?
17 A. Again, this is all difficult.
18 Q. I know it’s difficult, but you’re saying you
19 don’t remember that interview?
20 A. You just said I met with my mom and I was
21 there, and I didn’t remember until you said that,
22 and then I remembered.
23 Q. Do you remember you and your mom both
24 requested that the interview not be tape-recorded?
25 A. I do not.
26 Q. Would it refresh your recollection to see
27 what it says in the report about that?
28 A. Bring it over. It -- yeah. Bring it over. 4920
1 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
4 look at the page of that report?
5 A. Yeah, I read the first paragraph.
6 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about you
7 and your mother both requesting no tape-recording?
8 A. No, it does not.
9 Q. Okay. You don’t remember one way or the
10 other about that?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, on that particular day,
13 and I’m referring to November 19th, 2004, you were
14 interviewed as well, correct?
15 A. Was this when my mother was present?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Do you remember you were interviewed on that
19 day?
20 A. I think I was just there for my mom.
21 Q. Well, actually, they interviewed your mom
22 first and then they interviewed you second, correct?
23 A. I don’t remember that.
24 Q. Okay. They interviewed you for about an
25 hour, didn’t they?
26 A. They may have.
27 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
28 you the report about that? 4921
1 A. No.
2 Q. You’re not willing to look at it?
3 A. I’ll look at it. I’ll look at it, but no,
4 it probably won’t.
5 Q. You don’t remember an hour interview on
6 November 19th, 2004?
7 A. Again, the issue is it’s all kind of
8 blending in together.
9 Q. You do remember the December interview with
10 Prosecutor Zonen, right?
11 A. You asked me that --
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Go ahead, ask it again. Do I remember the
14 December interview?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. I remember it taking place. I don’t
17 remember what specific was asked.
18 Q. Actually, let me clarify the date.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Okay. I’m talking about the report. You
21 were interviewed on October 18th, 2004, by
22 prosecutors, right?
23 A. I’m sorry?
24 Q. You were interviewed on October 18th by
25 prosecutors, correct?
26 A. Of 2004?
27 Q. Yes.
28 A. I believe that was the first time that I met 4922
1 these guys, but I don’t know.
2 Q. And then you were interviewed approximately
3 a month later on November 19th, right?
4 A. You got a bunch of hands raised behind you.
5 THE BAILIFF: Mr. Mesereau, could you check
6 if it’s on? I guess they can’t hear you back there.
7 THE WITNESS: Sorry, that’s what was kind of
8 distracting me.
9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: I had mentioned a December
10 date. Actually, you were interviewed in October and
11 November of 2004, right?
12 A. October, November, December. I don’t know.
13 Q. Okay. Do you remember having Terry
14 Cannon --
15 A. They’re raising their hands again.
16 THE COURT: Quit hitting my microphone.
17 MR. MESEREAU: Oh. Okay.
18 THE COURT: Beat the poor thing -- you know,
19 what’s happening, you have a book that’s hitting the
20 “off” button. I can see from here that you can’t
21 see, maybe.
22 MR. MESEREAU: I think it’s on, but --
23 THE COURT: Gently.
24 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it’s bad to hit mikes.
25 THE BAILIFF: Actually, it’s -- when you
26 step back and are at a far distance, it’s hard to
27 hear.
28 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. 4923
1 Q. In your interview with the prosecutors on
2 October 18th --
3 A. This is the first one?
4 Q. Well, first we have ‘93. Then we have ‘94.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. Then we have October of 2004, and then
7 November of 2004. Okay?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. In your interview in October of 2004, you
10 were asked about the third incident where you claim
11 Mr. Jackson tickled your testicles, right?
12 A. I was probably asked that, yes.
13 Q. Do you remember you told the prosecutors it
14 lasted for more than ten seconds, but you don’t know
15 how much longer after that?
16 A. I don’t remember saying that.
17 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I
18 showed you your report?
19 A. My report? No, it wouldn’t.
20 Q. Well, the police reports.
21 A. The police report. I’ll look at it, but
22 it’s probably not going to help.
23 Q. Are you willing to give it a chance?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Think it might help?
26 A. No. I’m sorry. But you can -- I’ll give it
27 a shot.
28 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. May I approach, Your 4924
1 Honor?
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: Okay.
4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
5 look at the page of that report?
6 A. I have.
7 Q. Does it refresh your recollection that you
8 told the prosecutors it lasted more than ten
9 seconds?
10 A. It does not help me remember.
11 Q. Don’t remember that at all?
12 A. No, but I could probably agree with it if it
13 was in the report.
14 Q. Okay. Before either the October interview
15 or the November interview with prosecutors, did you
16 discuss what you were going to say in any of those
17 interviews with your mother?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You would agree that Attorney Terry Cannon
20 was present at both the October interview, 2004, and
21 the November interview, 2004, right?
22 A. I can’t remember whether he was there on the
23 November one with me and my mom.
24 Q. Did you discuss what you were going to say
25 at either interview in advance with Attorney Terry
26 Cannon?
27 A. I don’t think so.
28 Q. How did he end up showing up for any of 4925
1 those interviews, if you know?
2 A. I think he called me and said I might be
3 subpoenaed for this. I can’t -- I think Kris called
4 me and said I might be subpoenaed up here.
5 Q. Correct me if I’m wrong, I think you said
6 yesterday that you never knew that your mother had
7 gotten $20,000 from the television show Hard Copy to
8 give an interview.
9 A. I think you’re wrong.
10 Q. Okay. Did you know that before you
11 testified yesterday?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And when did you first learn that your
14 mother got $20,000 to give an interview with Hard
15 Copy in the early ‘90s?
16 A. I think it was last Sunday.
17 Q. Okay. And I guess she told you that?
18 A. No.
19 Q. She’s never told you that?
20 A. That she received $20,000? She has never
21 told me that.
22 Q. Did you know before last week that your
23 mother had been paid to go on the television show
24 Hard Copy?
25 A. I think I assumed it.
26 Q. Okay. But you didn’t know for sure?
27 A. I didn’t know for sure.
28 Q. Never discussed it with her? 4926
1 A. I don’t think I did, no.
2 Q. Okay. All right. Now, you admitted that at
3 the beginning of your first interview with sheriffs
4 in ‘93, you said that Mr. Jackson had not touched
5 your genital area, right?
6 A. I said that at the very beginning.
7 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: It was only after you were
10 pushed real hard by the sheriffs that you began to
11 say anything like that, true?
12 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.
13 THE COURT: Sustained.
14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: And at one point a sheriff
15 actually used a curse word to get you to say
16 something, correct?
17 A. I don’t remember that, but you could show me
18 the thing.
19 Q. Okay. But as you sit here today, you don’t
20 remember, right?
21 A. I don’t remember the four-letter word.
22 Everybody in junior high cussed.
23 Q. How about the word “bullshit”?
24 A. What about it?
25 Q. Do you remember a sheriff telling you that?
26 A. I don’t, but I think I remember listening to
27 it on the tape.
28 Q. Do you remember in that interview one 4927
1 sheriff telling you, “Mr. Jackson is a molester,”
2 and the other saying, “He makes great music, he’s a
3 great guy, bullshit”? Do you remember that?
4 A. I don’t remember that specifically, but I
5 think I remember hearing it on the tape, which was
6 my voice, or his voice.
7 Q. You do remember a sheriff’s voice saying
8 that, right?
9 A. I don’t remember right now of ‘93, but I
10 remember listening to the tape.
11 Q. Okay. And a sheriff said that to you,
12 correct?
13 A. I believe so.
14 Q. And the sheriffs complained that, “Mr.
15 Jackson has a lot of money” in that interview,
16 right?
17 A. I believe he did say that, but can I look at
18 the paper?
19 Q. Sure.
20 May I approach, Your Honor?
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay.
23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
24 look at the transcript?
25 A. I did.
26 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what
27 the sheriffs said to you about Mr. Jackson in the
28 interview? 4928
1 A. I don’t remember that specifically, but
2 reading it in the transcript, I remember reading
3 that in the transcript when I read it on Sunday,
4 when I reviewed the tape.
5 Q. And even after sheriffs said to you, “He’s a
6 molester, he’s a great guy, makes great music,
7 bullshit, he has lots of money,” you still said he
8 had never touched your genital area, right?
9 A. I believe so. Probably towards the
10 beginning again.
11 Q. Do you remember the sheriff interviewing you
12 wanted to know whether Mr. Jackson went under your
13 pants or on top of your underwear, and you said, “I
14 don’t know”?
15 A. I’m sorry?
16 Q. Do you remember the interviewing sheriff
17 asked you, “Have you ever been touched under your
18 pants or on top of your underwear?” And you said,
19 “I don’t know”?
20 A. Were we talking about a specific incident?
21 Q. I’m just asking about the interview.
22 A. Oh. Then --
23 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as vague, Your
24 Honor.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.
26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember in that
27 interview, when you first said in response to the
28 sheriffs questions, “Mr. Jackson touched me,” you 4929
1 had no idea how long he had ever touched you?
2 MR. ZONEN: Objection; vague. Which
3 incident?
4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: During any incident?
5 THE COURT: Do you want to rephrase the whole
6 question?
7 MR. MESEREAU: Sure.
8 Q. Do you remember in your first interview with
9 the sheriffs when, after repeated questioning, you
10 finally said, “Mr. Jackson touched me,” do you
11 remember not knowing how long he had ever touched
12 you at any time?
13 A. I don’t remember.
14 Q. Okay. Do you remember telling the sheriffs
15 that Mr. Jackson, during your tickle games, used to
16 pinch you in the stomach?
17 A. Tickling, pinching. Same thing.
18 Q. Okay. You did tell the sheriffs in your
19 first interview you had never spent the night with
20 Mr. Jackson, right?
21 A. I never slept in his bed with him.
22 Q. Okay. When did you last talk to Attorney
23 Terry Cannon?
24 A. Yesterday.
25 Q. Did you talk about your testimony?
26 A. No.
27 Q. Did you talk about the case?
28 A. Nope. 4930
1 Q. Did he call you --
2 A. Wait, actually, I’m sorry, I didn’t talk
3 about the case, but I talked about I was being
4 nervous up here.
5 Q. Did you call him or did he call you?
6 A. He called me.
7 Q. When did you last talk to Attorney Terry
8 Cannon before yesterday?
9 A. Um -- um, um, um, um. I really cannot
10 remember the specific date.
11 Q. Now, in your interview of March 24th, 1994,
12 you didn’t remember what cartoons you were watching
13 when you claim you were improperly touched, right?
14 A. I don’t know.
15 Q. Did you know you were being tape-recorded in
16 that interview?
17 A. You know what? I don’t know. Typically I’d
18 remember that.
19 Q. And do you remember telling the interviewers
20 that Michael Jackson tickled you in your stomach?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You don’t remember that?
23 A. No. Can I review that?
24 Q. Sure.
25 A. Is that -- it was being taped then? Or you
26 can’t say. Okay, yeah.
27 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
28 THE COURT: Yes. 4931
1 MR. ZONEN: What page, Counsel?
2 MR. MESEREAU: 58.
3 THE WITNESS: Okay.
4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You remember telling the
5 people interviewing you that Mr. Jackson did tickle
6 you in your stomach, right?
7 A. I do not remember saying that, but I
8 probably said that.
9 Q. Okay. Do you remember in that interview
10 when you finally said Mr. Jackson had touched your
11 penis, that you told the interviewers, “He tickled
12 me there”? Right?
13 A. I don’t know.
14 Q. Do you remember you were asked, “What did he
15 do with his hands?” And you said, “He tickled me.”
16 Do you remember that?
17 A. “What did he do with his hands?” And I
18 said, “He tickled me”?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. That’s kind of vague. Like overall he
21 tickled me, or what are you talking about?
22 Q. You were asked what Mr. Jackson did with
23 your penis. Do you remember that? And you said,
24 “He tickled me.” Do you remember that?
25 A. He did tickle me.
26 Q. Okay. You were asked to describe what Mr.
27 Jackson did with his hands, and your response was,
28 “He tickled me,” true? 4932
1 A. I don’t know. I was probably crying then.
2 Q. Would you like to review the transcript, see
3 if it refreshes your recollection?
4 A. Sure.
5 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. May I approach, Your
6 Honor?
7 THE COURT: Yes.
8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: By the way, if you don’t
9 remember the interview, how do you know you were
10 crying?
11 A. Because I usually cry when we’re talking
12 about the molestation.
13 Q. Okay. Okay. Again, do you remember saying
14 to the police officers in response to their
15 question, “What did he do with your penis?” You
16 said, “He tickled me”?
17 A. I thought you were going to bring me that
18 thing.
19 Q. Would you like to see it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. Do you remember describing what Mr. Jackson
24 did as tickling?
25 A. Do I remember describing what Michael
26 Jackson did as tickling?
27 Q. Yes.
28 A. Like tickling my penis or -- 4933
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Are we talking the first or second or third
3 incident?
4 Q. I don’t know.
5 MR. ZONEN: Well, I’m going to object as
6 vague.
7 THE COURT: The objection is sustained.
8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember telling
9 the interviewers in that second interview in 1994,
10 when they asked you what Mr. Jackson did with your
11 penis, you said, “He didn’t really touch it, he was
12 above my shorts”? Do you remember that?
13 A. Are we talking first or second or third?
14 Q. I believe you were just answering their
15 questions.
16 MR. ZONEN: Objection; vague.
17 THE COURT: Sustained.
18 Counsel, you’re going to have to direct --
19 if you’re going to question in this manner, you’re
20 going to have to direct it to specific times. There
21 were three interviews.
22 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. I’m sorry, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: And you’re being unfair to the
24 witness in my opinion.
25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Directing you to
26 the second interview that you ever gave about these
27 events, okay? And that was the interview --
28 A. In ‘94? 4934
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Yes. Okay?
4 A. I thought we were talking about 2004. I’m
5 sorry.
6 Q. Okay. That’s my mistake, I apologize.
7 Let’s talk about the 1994 interview.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. All right? Do you remember being asked the
10 question, “Did Mr. Jackson touch your penis?” And
11 you said, “He didn’t really touch it, he was above
12 my shorts”?
13 A. I do not --
14 THE COURT: Wait. Just a minute.
15 THE WITNESS: I’m sorry.
16 THE COURT: I want you to approach.
17 MR. MESEREAU: Sure.
18 (Discussion held off the record at sidebar.)
19 THE COURT: All right. You may proceed.
20 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. I’m going to try
21 and direct my questions to a particular interview,
22 one of the four that you had, and direct them to one
23 of the three events that you have described when you
24 claim Mr. Jackson improperly touched you, okay?
25 Now, directing your attention to the second
26 interview, which is in 1994 - okay? - and directing
27 your attention to the first event that you have
28 described where you claim Mr. Jackson improperly 4935
1 touched you - okay? - do you remember -- excuse me.
2 Isn’t it true that, when asked about the first event
3 in that second interview, you said Mr. Jackson
4 didn’t really touch your penis?
5 A. I don’t --
6 MR. ZONEN: What page?
7 MR. MESEREAU: 60.
8 THE WITNESS: No, I don’t remember.
9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Would it refresh your
10 recollection if I show you a page of that
11 transcript?
12 A. Bring it over.
13 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach?
14 THE COURT: Yes.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
17 look at that page?
18 A. I have. Well, not the tape. I’ve read
19 those two little sentences there.
20 Q. Does it refresh your recollection of what
21 you told the people who were interviewing you about
22 that first event during the interview in 1994?
23 A. It does not refresh my memory. But in
24 reading it --
25 THE COURT: Wait. That’s the end of your
26 answer.
27 THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry.
28 THE COURT: Listen to the question and just 4936
1 answer the question asked.
2 THE WITNESS: Okay.
3 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You just don’t recall
4 saying that, right?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Could you please describe, to the extent you
7 remember, the sleeping bag in the apartment that you
8 called the hideout?
9 A. Describe the bag itself?
10 Q. Yes. If you remember. How big it was,
11 where it was, et cetera.
12 A. Near a window. If you’re looking at the
13 T.V., to the right of the T.V.
14 Q. And there was no furniture in the apartment
15 that you remember?
16 A. I did not say that.
17 Q. Okay. What did you say?
18 A. I said that there was an L-shaped couch in
19 the hideout somewhere, in the living room, I
20 believe.
21 Q. Okay. And at any time when you claim you
22 were improperly touched, were you sitting on the
23 couch?
24 A. No, I never said that either.
25 Q. During the events that you’ve described at
26 the hideout --
27 A. Okay.
28 Q. -- where you say you were improperly 4937
1 tickled - okay? --
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. -- were you always on top of the sleeping
4 bag?
5 A. No. The first time I was on a chair.
6 Q. Okay. The second time you were on a
7 sleeping bag, right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Okay. Did both of those instances start out
10 as tickle contests?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Okay. And in both of those incidences that
13 you’ve described, you recall it starting out as
14 innocent sort of tickling and leading to an improper
15 touching, right?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Okay. Now, you’ve admitted that Mr. Jackson
18 said he would pay you money for completing a book
19 and also for getting A’s in school, right?
20 A. I remember hearing that on the tape.
21 Q. Do you recall Mr. Jackson saying that to
22 you?
23 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.
24 THE COURT: Sustained.
25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you recall being paid
26 for reading a book?
27 A. I wasn’t a reader.
28 Q. Did you ever tell Mr. Jackson, if you 4938
1 remember, “I’ve completed a book”?
2 A. If I did, I don’t know.
3 Q. Okay. Do you remember telling Mr. Jackson
4 you got A’s in school?
5 A. If I did get an A, it was probably in P.E.
6 Q. And do you remember telling that to Mr.
7 Jackson?
8 A. I don’t think I ever did. I don’t know.
9 Q. Okay. Now, without going into any amounts,
10 when did you ever receive any money?
11 A. From Michael?
12 Q. From a settlement --
13 A. Oh.
14 Q. -- in your case.
15 A. From the settlement?
16 Q. Without going into any amounts, just when
17 did you first receive any money?
18 A. When I turned 18.
19 Q. Okay. Without going into any amounts, do
20 you know if your mother has received any money from
21 Mr. Jackson?
22 A. She has.
23 Q. Do you know approximately when she received
24 money from a settlement?
25 A. I don’t.
26 Q. Okay. Do you know if it was before you did?
27 A. I think it was.
28 Q. Okay. Have you ever been approached by 4939
1 anyone in the media who wanted to talk to you about
2 anything involving Mr. Jackson?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And when did that happen?
5 A. Geez. When I was in junior high; when I
6 was -- shoot, in ‘93 -- in ‘93, ‘94 I think.
7 Recently. Well, actually, not recently. A couple
8 years ago. They -- yeah, the media.
9 Q. Do you know how the media ever heard about
10 you?
11 A. I don’t.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Actually, I talked to a media guy once.
14 Q. Who was that?
15 A. I don’t remember. He had a British accent.
16 But I did not say anything about the case, or
17 anything about Michael. What --
18 Q. And when did this happen?
19 MR. ZONEN: I’m not sure the witness had
20 completed his answer.
21 MR. MESEREAU: Oh, I’m sorry, I thought he
22 had.
23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Were you finished?
24 A. No, I wasn’t.
25 Q. My mistake.
26 THE COURT: Let’s just stop. There wasn’t
27 any question pending. He was in a narrative for
28 some reason. Next question. 4940
1 THE WITNESS: Okay.
2 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you know approximately
3 when you spoke to a representative of the media?
4 A. I don’t. I know I was late to class, but I
5 don’t. I was in -- probably ‘92 or ‘93.
6 Q. How about in recent -- the last couple
7 years, anyone approach you, to your knowledge?
8 A. Well, to my knowledge, no. They tried to,
9 but I somehow always evade them. Not on purpose.
10 It just happens.
11 Q. In your second interview in 1994, you were
12 asked, “Did you ever have any discussion with
13 Michael Jackson about whether you should tell
14 anybody about the things you described?” Remember
15 that?
16 A. (Shakes head from side to side.)
17 Q. You don’t? Okay.
18 A. No, I don’t.
19 Q. Okay. Do you remember telling the
20 interviewers, when you were asked do you remember
21 anything that he said, you said, “No, I’m working on
22 that”?
23 A. No.
24 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as to which
25 interview; vague.
26 MR. MESEREAU: In the second interview, I’m
27 sorry.
28 Q. In the second interview -- let me rephrase 4941
1 the question. I’ll withdraw it.
2 In the second interview in 1994 - okay? --
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. -- that was recorded - all right? - when
5 asked if Mr. Jackson said anything to you about
6 whether you should discuss what happened, do you
7 remember telling the interviewers, “No, but I’m
8 working on that”?
9 A. I do not remember that.
10 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
11 you the transcript?
12 A. No. But -- you could bring it over.
13 Q. Well, I can’t unless you’re willing to see
14 if it refreshes your recollection.
15 A. Okay. Bring it over. I’ll give it a shot.
16 I’ll read it just to see if it refreshes my memory.
17 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach?
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 MR. ZONEN: Page, Counsel?
20 MR. MESEREAU: Yes. Pages 105, 106.
21 THE WITNESS: Okay.
22 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
23 review those pages --
24 A. I have.
25 Q. -- of your transcript?
26 Do they refresh your recollection about what
27 you said on that subject?
28 A. No, it does not. 4942
1 Q. It doesn’t.
2 A. Sorry.
3 Q. Now, in that interview you indicated that
4 you were aware that another boy had sued Mr. Jackson
5 seeking money, right?
6 MR. ZONEN: I’m sorry, which interview?
7 Objection.
8 MR. MESEREAU: I’m sorry, the second -- let
9 me rephrase it.
10 Q. In the second interview that you gave in
11 1994 - okay? --
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. -- you indicated that you were aware that
14 someone else had sued Mr. Jackson for money,
15 correct?
16 A. I don’t remember.
17 Q. Would it refresh your recollection to look
18 at the transcript?
19 A. Probably not.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. Both of them are really blurry. It was just
22 hard for me at the time.
23 Q. Well, let me ask you this.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. Looking back, when is the first time you
26 recall you knew someone else had sued Mr. Jackson
27 looking for money?
28 A. Probably 16. 4943
1 Q. Excuse me?
2 A. I was probably 16. Because that’s when
3 money started being an issue for me.
4 Q. Okay. Now, in your last interview with
5 Prosecutor Zonen - and I’m talking about an
6 interview on November 19th, 2004, okay? - Mr. Cannon
7 was present, right?
8 A. I don’t know.
9 Q. Do you recall Mr. Cannon not wanting a
10 defense investigator present?
11 A. No, I don’t recall.
12 Q. Did you know anything about that?
13 A. No.
14 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. At this time, I have
15 no further questions, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: All right. Redirect?
17
18 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. ZONEN:
20 Q. Mr. Francia, did you get any money from Mr.
21 Jackson for reading a book?
22 A. I don’t think so.
23 Q. Did you ever get any money from Mr. Jackson
24 for getting A’s?
25 A. I don’t think so.
26 Q. Were grades a problem for you when you were
27 in school about that time?
28 A. Shoot, through all my whole life, grades 4944
1 were a problem.
2 Q. Did you -- do you sometimes have difficulty
3 with reading?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. At this time even?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. All right. A lot of questions were asked of
8 you by Mr. Mesereau that dealt with that first
9 interview that took place in 1993, the first time
10 that there was a disclosure. And you indicated, I
11 believe, that what you said toward the end of the
12 interview was very different than what you said at
13 the beginning of the interview. Would you explain
14 that for us, please? Why is that?
15 A. Why there was a difference in the beginning
16 and --
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. Because in the beginning, I thought I could
19 hold them off and make them go away. And they
20 didn’t go away. At all. It’s kind of an issue when
21 I was 13. I didn’t want to tell anybody that I’d
22 been molested; that I didn’t want to tell anybody
23 that anything ever happened to me. That’s weird.
24 Q. Why?
25 A. Because you’re 13. That’s weird.
26 Q. What were the issues that you were dealing
27 with at that time about that?
28 A. In fifth grade, I told my friends that I 4945
1 knew Michael Jackson, and I thought it was cool. My
2 friends thought it was cool. They didn’t believe
3 me. But they thought it was cool.
4 In junior high, it’s no longer cool to know
5 somebody that had issues with kids, because then
6 they’re going to make fun of you.
7 And even at the church, they made fun of me.
8 At the church, worse than school, they made fun of
9 me.
10 Q. And you were actually teased?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. You said yesterday to one of Mr. Mesereau’s
13 questions that you told the detective, “No, I’m not
14 gay.” Did you make that statement to them?
15 A. I remember listening to it in the tape. I
16 don’t recall saying that. But I remember listening
17 to it on the tape.
18 Q. Do you recall whether or not that was an
19 issue for you during the course of that interview,
20 that that was one of your concerns, that people
21 would see you as that?
22 A. Yes. That was a concern of mine.
23 Q. You mentioned yesterday to one of Mr.
24 Mesereau’s questions that the defendant put the
25 money down your pants. Would you describe that for
26 us?
27 A. What do you want to know?
28 Q. Where did the money go? In other words, 4946
1 when he -- when he gave you money, did he hand it to
2 you, or did he do something else? And if so, tell
3 us what that is.
4 A. He put the money in my shorts, because I
5 pulled it out, and that’s when my mom saw -- noticed
6 that I had pulled money out of my shorts and she
7 asked me where I got it from.
8 Q. Do you remember which of the three occasions
9 this was?
10 A. I can’t remember whether it was the first or
11 the second.
12 Q. But this was back when you were young?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Seven or eight?
15 A. Seven or eight.
16 Q. You say in your shorts. What are we talking
17 about? In a pocket?
18 A. I don’t think my mom put pockets on the
19 shorts.
20 Q. That was a little more complicated?
21 A. She’s a good seamstress, but I don’t think
22 for shorts.
23 Q. Tell us as best you can recall where would
24 that money have been.
25 A. That would have been in my shorts.
26 Q. I’m sorry?
27 A. It would have been in my shorts.
28 Q. In the inside? 4947
1 A. In the inside.
2 Q. Do you know if the money was in your
3 underwear?
4 A. I don’t. I don’t know.
5 Q. Mr. Mesereau asked you yesterday questions
6 about whether you talked to your mother about what
7 had happened, and if so, to what extent.
8 Did you ever have a conversation with your
9 mother where you told her that you were molested?
10 A. I think I told her that I was molested in
11 counseling, because then she shared that she was
12 molested as well.
13 Q. Okay. Did you ever tell her the details of
14 the molestation?
15 A. No.
16 Q. What had happened, how it happened, how
17 often it happened, any of those types of details?
18 A. I don’t think so.
19 Q. To this day, have you ever?
20 A. To this day. My wife found out on the
21 stand.
22 Q. The details you had not yet told your wife?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. Have you ever told anybody the details other
25 than your therapist?
26 A. My pastor.
27 Q. Your pastor?
28 A. And I don’t think I told him the details. 4948
1 MR. ZONEN: Thank you. I have no further
2 questions.
3 THE COURT: Recross?
4 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions, Your
5 Honor.
6 THE COURT: All right. You may step down.
7 He needs to move away.
8 MR. SNEDDON: Don’t forget your jacket.
9 Call Kris Kallman, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Come forward to the witness
11 stand, please. When you get to the witness stand,
12 remain standing.
13 Face the clerk and raise your right hand.
14
15 KRIS KALLMAN
16 Having been sworn, testified as follows:
17
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and
20 spell your name for the record.
21 THE WITNESS: My name is Kris, K-r-i-s,
22 Kallman, K-a-l-l-m-a-n.
23 THE CLERK: Thank you.
24
25 DIRECT EXAMINATION
26 BY MR. SNEDDON:
27 Q. Good morning, Mr. Kallman.
28 A. Good morning, Mr. Sneddon. 4949
1 Q. You’re an attorney?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Licensed to practice in the State of
4 California?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. And what is your brief educational
7 background to prepare you for the practice of law in
8 the State of California?
9 A. Well, I graduated from Santa Barbara High
10 School. Went to Santa Barbara City College.
11 Graduated from Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. Went to
12 Pepperdine University Law School.
13 Q. Do you have a certain area of law that you
14 specialize in?
15 A. Yes. I am a civil trial lawyer, and for the
16 most part, I represent people that get injured due
17 to the fault of another person or company.
18 Q. How long have you been practicing law in the
19 State of California?
20 A. 29 years.
21 Q. And how long have you lived in Santa Barbara
22 County?
23 A. My whole life, except when I was away at
24 college.
25 Q. And where do you live in Santa Barbara
26 County?
27 A. I live in Santa Barbara, on the mesa, in the
28 city. 4950
1 Q. Now, during the time that you’ve practiced
2 law in Santa Barbara County, have you had associates
3 that have practiced with you in your firm?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Are you a sole practitioner?
6 A. Essentially. Although I currently have two
7 lawyers that office with me and they act as “of
8 counsel.” They’re not employees, but they help me
9 out on cases.
10 Q. Are you familiar with an attorney by the
11 name of Terry Cannon?
12 A. I sure am.
13 Q. And how long have you known Mr. Cannon?
14 A. Oh, I’ve known Mr. Cannon for at least 20
15 years.
16 Q. And at some point in time prior to today,
17 was Mr. Cannon one of the people who was associated
18 with you in the practice of -- your civil practice?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And during what period of time was that; do
21 you recall?
22 A. Well, the relevant period here would have
23 been in the early to mid ‘90s.
24 Q. And at that time Mr. Cannon was practicing
25 with you?
26 A. He was associating with me on certain cases.
27 Q. And do you recall where Mr. Cannon was
28 residing at that particular point in time? 4951
1 A. I believe he was living in Santa Barbara.
2 Q. Now, at some later time, did Mr. Cannon
3 leave your association and take up the practice of
4 law somewhere else?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. To your knowledge, where was that?
7 A. In Oregon.
8 Q. And then after that, did Mr. Cannon come
9 back?
10 A. He came back to San Luis Obispo County, and
11 then moved to San Diego County.
12 Q. And at this particular point in time, do you
13 know where Mr. Cannon is?
14 A. Not exactly this moment. But I happen to
15 know that he bought a condominium here in Orcutt.
16 Q. And is he, once again, associated with you
17 in the practice of law?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Now, did you have occasion to represent
20 Jason Francia in some litigation?
21 A. He and his mother, yes.
22 Q. And can you tell us, did you ever prepare a
23 lawsuit on behalf of Jason Francia?
24 A. We prepared a Complaint, which is a document
25 that’s the beginning of a lawsuit, yes.
26 Q. And when you say “we,” who’s “we”?
27 A. Mr. Cannon and myself.
28 Q. So Mr. Cannon was working with you on that 4952
1 particular case?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. And after the preparation of that
4 document -- well, with regard to that document, what
5 were the allegations set forth in the proposed
6 Complaint to be filed?
7 A. Well, it’s been --
8 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Hearsay;
9 relevance.
10 THE COURT: Sustained.
11 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Who was the individual that
12 the Complaint was directed towards?
13 A. Mr. Jackson.
14 Q. At some point in time, did you have contact
15 with individuals who were representing Mr. Jackson
16 over the proposed filing of the criminal -- of the
17 civil complaint?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And who did you make contact with?
20 A. Initially our contacts were with Johnnie
21 Cochran and his associate, Carl Douglas.
22 Q. Do you recall approximately when it was when
23 you first made contact with Mr. -- or when contact
24 was made between you and Mr. Cochran and Mr.
25 Douglas?
26 A. It was either late ‘94 or early ‘95.
27 Q. Did you, after your conversations with those
28 individuals, file the civil lawsuit? 4953
1 A. No.
2 Q. At some point in time later, were you then
3 dealing with other lawyers with regard to the
4 proposed filing of that civil lawsuit?
5 A. Yes. At some point, Mr. Jackson’s
6 representation was assumed by a lawyer named Zia
7 Modabber, and a lawyer named Howard Weitzman.
8 Q. And do you recall approximately when it was
9 that you then began contact with those particular
10 individuals?
11 A. I believe it was in mid 1995.
12 Q. And the purpose of those contacts?
13 A. Well, the --
14 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Vague;
15 foundation.
16 THE COURT: Overruled.
17 You may answer.
18 THE WITNESS: The purpose of the contacts
19 was that they knew that we had a Complaint that we
20 were about to file in Santa Barbara County Superior
21 Court, and they didn’t want us to do that.
22 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Hearsay;
23 foundation.
24 THE COURT: The answer is stricken.
25 Sustained.
26 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: As a result of the
27 conversations between these individuals, did you
28 pursue your lawsuit? 4954
1 A. Well, we never filed the lawsuit.
2 Q. Did you reach an agreement, a settlement
3 agreement?
4 A. Yes, we did.
5 Q. Did you reach a settlement agreement in
6 which Jason Francia received monetary compensation
7 from Mr. Jackson?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Did you receive -- did you reach an
10 agreement in which Blanca Francia received monetary
11 compensation from Mr. Jackson?
12 A. Yes, we did.
13 Q. During the time that you were
14 representing -- during the time that you had
15 prepared a Complaint ready to be filed and you were
16 in contact with attorneys representing Mr. Jackson,
17 can you give the ladies and gentlemen of the jury an
18 idea of how old Jason Francia was at that particular
19 point in time?
20 A. Well, he was about 14 years old. He’s 24
21 now, as I understand it, and we’re talking about
22 things that happened just about exactly ten years
23 ago.
24 Q. And in your position as a civil litigator,
25 at the time that an individual is of minority, at
26 the age of 14, how do you deal with representing a
27 person like that?
28 A. Well, a child -- 4955
1 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Vague;
2 foundation; relevance.
3 THE COURT: Overruled.
4 You may complete your answer.
5 THE WITNESS: A child, under California law,
6 under the age of 18, is not permitted to enter into
7 a contract. I suppose he or she could, but it
8 wouldn’t be enforceable. So the only way a child
9 can act legally is through a guardian ad litem. And
10 it’s normally the parent and normally the mother.
11 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Was that the case in this
12 particular instance?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, during the course of the time that you
15 were involved in obtaining a settlement from Mr.
16 Jackson on behalf of the Francias, did you deal
17 personally with Jason at any time?
18 A. Yeah. Sure.
19 Q. In what respect?
20 A. Well, I knew who he was, I met with him. I
21 met with he and his mom. He was a teenaged boy, and
22 a nice young man.
23 Q. Now, at some point in time was Jason
24 required to sign some kind of documents in
25 conjunction with the settlement?
26 A. Yes. When he turned 18, part of the
27 condition was that he sign a confidentiality
28 agreement. 4956
1 Q. Now, with regard to the confidentiality --
2 and to your knowledge, did he sign that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And with regard to the confidentiality
5 agreement, did it have a provision that required
6 notice to Mr. Jackson in the event that Jason
7 Francia talked to anybody?
8 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading; move to
9 strike.
10 THE COURT: Overruled.
11 You may answer.
12 THE WITNESS: I believe so, yes.
13 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: And what was the
14 requirement notice in the confidentiality agreement
15 with regard to notice to the defense?
16 A. I believe it’s five days.
17 Q. And were you at some point contacted by Mr.
18 Zonen of our department with regard to interviewing
19 your -- Jason Francia?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And in that particular case, did you
22 indicate to Mr. Zonen that you would have to do
23 something before you could agree with that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And what was that?
26 A. Well, I’d have to notify somebody on Mr.
27 Jackson’s legal staff that they wanted to talk to
28 him. 4957
1 Q. And did you do that?
2 A. Yeah. Yes. Excuse me.
3 Q. And did you then grant permission for Mr.
4 Zonen to have a conversation with your -- with Jason
5 Francia?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, were you present during the
8 conversations between Jason Francia and Mr. Zonen?
9 A. I don’t think so. I think I was there, and
10 then I think I had to go to another court or
11 something like that. I don’t remember being an
12 integral part of any of those -- if there was more
13 than one, I don’t even know.
14 Q. And I’m talking about the conversations that
15 occurred after you gave notice to the defense in
16 this case, or gave notice to Mr. Jackson. To your
17 knowledge, was Mr. Cannon present?
18 A. I believe so. At least for part of it.
19 Again, I’m not certain.
20 Q. Do you remember when it was that you
21 finally -- the year that you finally reached a
22 settlement agreement with Mr. Jackson?
23 A. Yes. It’s been a long time. But it was a
24 big deal. And I do remember --
25 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
26 move to strike.
27 THE COURT: The answer is stricken.
28 Nonresponsive. 4958
1 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Just --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what year was that, approximately?
4 A. It was either ‘95 or ‘96, I believe.
5 THE COURT: Counsel, we’ll take our break.
6 (Recess taken.)
7 --o0o--
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 4959
1 REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE
2
3
4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE )
5 OF CALIFORNIA, )
6 Plaintiff, )
7 -vs- ) No. 1133603
8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
9 Defendant. )
10
11
12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR,
13 CSR #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby
14 certify:
15 That the foregoing pages 4902 through 4959
16 contain a true and correct transcript of the
17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled
18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at
19 said proceedings on April 5, 2005, and thereafter
20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided
21 transcription under my direction.
22 DATED: Santa Maria, California,
23 April 5, 2005.
24
25
26
27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 4960
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
5
6
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
13
14
15
16
17 REPORTER’S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
18
19 TUESDAY, APRIL 5, 2005
20
21 8:30 A.M.
22
23 (PAGES 4961 THROUGH 5156)
24
25
26
27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 4961
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
9
10
11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A.
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067
14 -and-
15 SANGER & SWYSEN
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C
17 Santa Barbara, California 93101
18 -and-
19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ.
20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs, California 90670
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 4962
1 I N D E X
2
3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Nicola is listed as “N” on index. Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index.
6 Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index. Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index.
7 Mr. Oxman is listed as “O” on index.
8
9 PLAINTIFF’S
10 WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
11 KALLMAN, Kris 4966-M
12 FRANCIA, Blanca 4977-Z 5057-M 5130-Z 5154-M
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 4963
Subject: April 5, 2005 
Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:57 am
