1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
17 REPORTER’S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
19 MONDAY, APRIL 11, 2005
21 8:30 A.M.
23 (PAGES 5579 THROUGH 5770)
27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 5579
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A.
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067
15 SANGER & SWYSEN
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C
17 Santa Barbara, California 93101
19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ.
20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs, California 90670
1 I N D E X
3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index. Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index.
6 Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index. Mr. Oxman is listed as “O” on index.
9 PLAINTIFF’S WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
10 BROWN, Stacy 5583-M 5593-A 5595-M
11 CHANDLER, June 5596-SN 5658-M 5727-SN 5734-M
12 SWINGLER, Dwayne 5736-A 5754-M 5765-A
1 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
2 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Thank you, Your Honor.
3 Q. Mr. Brown, where we left off, I was asking
4 you about this period of time when Mr. Jones started
5 to have some failure of recollection on the issue of
6 head licking.
7 When did that -- do you recall when that
8 began or when that started?
9 A. It’s been about a month or so now.
10 Q. Before that time, how many times had you
11 been involved in a conversation where Mr. Jones
12 talked about the head-licking incident?
13 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; relevance.
14 THE COURT: Overruled.
15 THE WITNESS: I can’t tell you exact number
16 of times, but it was more than a couple.
17 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Okay. And how would
18 you describe this change in his recollection, if you
20 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; vague.
21 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I can be more specific.
22 MR. MESEREAU: Relevance.
23 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: My question goes to,
24 was it an abrupt change, or was it something that
25 occurred over a period of time, or something in
27 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Vague; relevance;
28 foundation. 5582
1 THE COURT: Overruled.
2 You may answer.
3 THE WITNESS: I would say it was more abrupt
4 than anything else.
5 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Thank you, Mr. Brown. I
6 have no further questions.
7 THE COURT: Cross-examine?
8 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, please, Your Honor.
11 BY MR. MESEREAU:
12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Brown.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. How long have you known Bob Jones?
15 A. The year Princess Diana died. I think it
16 was ‘97.
17 Q. Okay. And approximately when did he tell
18 you he intended to write a book?
19 A. It was about January, a few months before he
20 was terminated.
21 Q. And you’ve been interviewed by the sheriffs
22 in this case, right?
23 A. That’s correct.
24 Q. And you told the sheriffs that Bob Jones
25 told you he’s broke and he needs to make some money,
27 A. That’s what --
28 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; hearsay. 5583
1 THE COURT: Sustained.
2 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you gone through
3 different drafts with Mr. Jones?
4 A. Yes, I have.
5 Q. On the issue of head licking, did Mr. Jones
6 tell you at one point he had to make money on this
7 book because he had financial problems?
8 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. Hearsay;
10 THE COURT: Overruled.
11 You may answer.
12 THE WITNESS: He didn’t -- Mr. Mesereau, he
13 didn’t tell me that in relation to the head licking.
14 That never came up in discussions of money.
15 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: But he told you he’s broke
16 and has to get paid for this book, correct?
17 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. Hearsay;
19 THE COURT: Overruled.
20 You may answer.
21 THE WITNESS: When we first started the book,
22 he said he needs the money. He was just fired.
23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: And he said he was broke,
25 A. Yes. That’s correct.
26 Q. You told the police you said he was broke,
28 A. That’s correct. 5584
1 Q. Okay. Now, how did -- how did the -- let me
2 rephrase that.
3 Obviously at some point you met with Bob
4 Jones about writing a book, correct?
5 A. That’s correct.
6 Q. And where did you meet with him?
7 A. Well, as I said earlier, he first approached
8 me here at the court, back during the arraignment.
9 Q. And did he tell you then he wanted to write
11 A. That’s correct.
12 Q. And that’s before he --
13 A. That’s before his termination.
14 Q. Okay. And how long before his termination
15 was that, do you think?
16 A. Well, it was January, so -- the termination
17 was in June. So four, five months.
18 Q. And did he tell you he was doing it
20 A. Well, he didn’t say secretly, but he said --
21 obviously any process with a book, you don’t want
22 everyone to know this is what you are doing.
23 I did, however, myself, tell members of the
24 family, to get their thoughts on it, because that
25 was my concern, what their thoughts may be with me
26 doing a book with Bob Jones with -- chiefly it had
27 to be about Michael Jackson.
28 Q. Okay. Now, did Mr. Jones tell you he was 5585
1 talking to anyone from the sheriff’s department?
2 A. Not at that time, no.
3 Q. When did you first learn that he had spoken
4 to anyone from the sheriff’s department?
5 A. I believe they first contacted him in
6 December of last year.
7 Q. And based on the prosecutor’s questions to
8 you, you must have learned at some point that Bob
9 Jones was saying he couldn’t really remember seeing
10 any head licking, right?
11 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; hearsay.
12 THE COURT: I’m sorry, I can’t read the --
13 THE REPORTER: “Learned” instead of
15 THE COURT: All right. The objection is
17 You may answer.
18 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat it, sir?
19 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll have it read back. May
20 it be read back, Your Honor?
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 (Record read.)
23 THE WITNESS: Oh, I wouldn’t say it was
24 based on the prosecutor’s -- that. I think it was
25 simply when I spoke with him, he got a little
26 nervous about that particular vein. I think he
27 realized that it was going to become a part of this
28 -- 5586
1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Well, did you and Mr.
2 Jones discuss the fact that the Arvizos went to
3 Larry Feldman, the same lawyer who represented the
5 A. The --
6 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. Relevance;
7 beyond the scope; and argumentative.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Has the name Larry Feldman
10 come up in the book you’re writing?
11 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Same objection.
12 THE COURT: Overruled.
13 You may answer.
14 THE WITNESS: Not by name, but certainly by
15 title and by inference. Bob did say, based on his
16 notes back in --
17 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Well, just -- you just
18 have to answer the question, okay? I’ll get into
19 that --
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. -- okay?
22 Does the book concern this case in any
24 A. I would think in some respects.
25 Q. And is it your plan to market the book while
26 this trial is going on?
27 A. Well, it all depends on when it’s finished.
28 Q. Has he ever talked to you about when he 5587
1 plans to complete the book?
2 A. Well, I have a lot of say in that, so we’ve
3 talked about that, and we’ve always said we don’t
4 want it to be a rush job, and a lot of people want
5 it to be a rush job. The publisher wants it to be a
6 rush job.
7 Q. The publisher wants it to be a rough job --
8 A. Rush job.
9 Q. -- rush job because you can sell it better
10 while the trial is going on, right?
11 A. Obviously, if it comes out now, it would
12 probably pique some interest because it’s Bob Jones,
13 who, you know, has worked for Michael for so long,
14 and it’s Michael.
15 Q. Now, have you discussed the amount of money
16 he might make on the book?
17 A. No, you know, we -- we’ve been made promises
18 in the past. We don’t listen to that. We don’t
19 even speculate on what can be made.
20 Personally, I just enjoy writing, so, you
21 know, the money aspect -- I think I do pretty well.
22 It’s not a big deal to me.
23 Q. Do you remember you were interviewed by a
24 Santa Barbara sheriff on December 7th, 2004?
25 A. Around about, yeah.
26 Q. And you were approached by Sergeant Robel,
28 A. Uh-huh. Yes, that’s correct. I’m sorry. 5588
1 Q. And the purpose of the interview was to talk
2 to you about this alleged head-licking event, right?
3 A. I’m not sure if that was the purpose of the
4 interview. We talked about various things back in
5 December, but I’m not sure that was the purpose of
7 Q. And do you remember Sergeant Robel wanted to
8 know why you had said that Mr. Jones told you he saw
9 Michael Jackson kiss Jordie, not lick his head?
10 A. Well, that’s not exactly what -- that I
11 remember Sergeant Robel putting to me. There was a
12 question another investigator had had about whether
13 I said he -- Bob said he licked or kissed him, and
14 he wanted me to clarify that.
15 Q. And you had told the investigator that based
16 on your discussions with Bob Jones, he had said that
17 Michael Jackson kissed Jordie one time, didn’t lick
18 his head, right?
19 A. No, I didn’t say that.
20 Q. Do you remember you apologized?
21 A. No, no. What happened -- I apologized if it
22 was confused. But what happened was, I think the
23 investigator had misunderstood and that’s what he
24 was calling to clarify. That’s one of the reasons
25 why he called, to clarify exactly what I said. He
26 said he didn’t remember if I said “licking” or
28 Q. Let me ask you if this is correct. 5589
1 A. Sure.
2 Q. “Brown apologized for the mistake. Said he
3 had not realized that he told me he was kissing as
4 opposed to licking.” Does that sound accurate to
6 A. It’s probably accurate. But again, as I’m
7 explaining to you, I explained to Sergeant Robel
8 when he asked the question, when he asked me about
9 that, I had told the other investigator, I think it
10 was Zelis, I’m -- I’m not sure, but I think it was
11 Paul Zelis, the investigator’s name, and I think he
12 was the one who had actually made the mistake or --
13 I won’t even say “mistake.” He wanted to clarify,
14 is that what I said.
15 Q. Why did you apologize to him?
16 A. Well, I apologized for being polite. I
17 mean, it’s just a polite thing to do, you know. If
18 I was wrong, I have no problems apologizing.
19 Q. Now, you’re aware that Mr. Jones has
20 indicated he doesn’t remember head licking and has
21 said he’d be lying to say that he did. Are you
22 aware of that?
23 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; misstates the
25 THE COURT: Sustained.
26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You’re in the process of
27 writing the section of the book that deals with this
28 trip to Monaco, aren’t you? 5590
1 A. No. No, we’re long since past that.
2 Q. Well, Mr. Jones has indicated that he has
3 not approved --
4 A. Everything that has --
5 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. Argumentative;
6 hearsay as to what Mr. Jones said; and misstates the
8 THE COURT: It’s an incomplete question, too.
9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Jones has final
10 approval over what’s in that book, doesn’t he?
11 A. Absolutely.
12 Q. Would you agree that the more sensational
13 the book, the better the chance of making money on
15 A. Well, obviously. I mean, we’ve been told
16 things that nothing surprises them about Michael
17 Jackson, so -- but it’s not our intentions to write
18 a book of scandal, if that’s what you’re inferring.
19 It’s certainly not mine, and I have to write it.
20 And I have people in his family who I happen to love
21 very much who I’m not going to disappoint.
22 Q. They’re not getting any money from the book,
23 are they?
24 A. The family?
25 Q. Yes.
26 A. Why should they?
27 Q. They’re not getting any money from the book,
28 are they? 5591
1 A. I’m sorry to respond in that way. No.
2 Q. The one who is going to make money is Bob
3 Jones, who’s broke, right?
4 A. We both will.
5 Q. You’re aware that Bob Jones was very upset
6 when he was terminated, aren’t you?
7 A. You know what? To be honest with you, he
8 wasn’t upset that he was terminated. He was upset
9 in which the way Randy terminated him.
10 Q. I’m not sure what that means.
11 A. Well, Bob had --
12 Q. Referring to Randy Jackson, right?
13 A. Randy Jackson, I’m sorry.
14 Bob had felt he’d been loyal to Michael for
15 basically half of Michael’s life, or most of
16 Michael’s life, I should say. And to get fired by a
17 messenger, you know, I felt bad, too. In fact, I
18 had spoke to someone in Michael’s family about that.
19 I said, “That’s horrible.”
20 But he was just upset in the method. He
21 knew that eventually his time was going to be up
22 just like everyone else’s.
23 Q. In the draft that you and Mr. Jones have
24 written, Mr. Jones says on at least two occasions
25 that he’s never seen Michael Jackson act
26 inappropriately with children, right?
27 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; hearsay.
28 THE COURT: Overruled. 5592
1 You may answer.
2 THE WITNESS: Well, if it was the exact --
3 well, I don’t remember the exact wording, but to say
4 that he saw him molest anybody, no, it does not say
5 he saw him molest anybody.
6 MR. MESEREAU: I have no further questions,
7 Your Honor.
9 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS:
11 Q. Mr. Jones (sic), I previously showed you
12 People’s Exhibit 803. Did Mr. Jones approve those
13 two passages?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Ask to move 803 into
17 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Hearsay;
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 MR. MESEREAU: Relevance.
21 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Offered as a prior
22 inconsistent statement as to the first passage and a
23 prior consistent statement as to the second.
24 MR. MESEREAU: Same objection.
25 THE COURT: The ruling remains the same.
26 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: All right. Ask at this
27 time to admit the two e-mails, Your Honor, Exhibits
28 804 and 805, into evidence at this time. 5593
1 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Hearsay;
2 foundation; authenticity; relevance.
3 THE COURT: I’ll take that up later.
4 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Okay.
5 Q. Mr. Brown, you said that Mr. Jones was
6 complaining about his finances on cross-examination.
7 A. Uh-huh. Yes.
8 Q. Is this a frequent complaint?
9 A. Yeah, he’s -- well, yeah, he’s made a few
10 complaints about that.
11 Q. Was there a time when he stopped complaining
12 about his finances during this period of
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was what -- when -- when he stopped
16 complaining about finances, tell me, was there any
17 relationship in time to that point and the time in
18 which he started to have this failure of
20 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Relevance; vague;
22 THE COURT: I’ll sustain vague.
23 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Can you tell me
24 approximately when in time Mr. Jones stopped
25 complaining about his finances?
26 A. It’s been about a month or so.
27 Q. And when in time did he start to have his
28 failure of recollection? 5594
1 A. About a month or so.
2 Q. Did they -- did both of those coincide in
4 A. I would say so, yes.
5 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Thank you. I have no
6 further questions.
9 BY MR. MESEREAU:
10 Q. Mr. Brown, what I think the prosecutor just
11 elicited is the following: When he was broke, he
12 said there was licking. And when he didn’t have
13 financial problems, he said there wasn’t any, right?
14 A. Well, if that’s how you --
15 Q. Right?
16 A. -- break it down, yeah, I guess.
17 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you.
18 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: No further questions.
19 THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down.
20 Would you give me Exhibits 804 and 805?
21 Call your next witness.
22 MR. SNEDDON: June Chandler, Your Honor.
23 THE BAILIFF: She’s on her way, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: 804 and 805 are not admitted.
25 Come forward, please. When you get to the
26 witness stand here, remain standing.
27 Face the clerk here and raise your right
28 hand. 5595
1 JUNE CHANDLER
2 Having been sworn, testified as follows:
4 THE WITNESS: I do.
5 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and
6 spell your name for the record.
7 THE WITNESS: June Chandler. J-u-n-e;
9 THE CLERK: Thank you.
10 THE WITNESS: You’re welcome.
12 DIRECT EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. SNEDDON:
14 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Chandler.
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. I want to go back in time a little bit to
17 around 1992 and ‘93, okay?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And are you related in some fashion to
20 Jordan Chandler?
21 A. Yes. He is my son.
22 Q. Okay. And we’re going -- you know, I should
23 have done this before we started.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You have to lean right into that microphone
26 so everybody can hear what you have to say. We’ve
27 had the same problem with everybody, so it’s not
28 just you. 5596
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. You have a very soft voice, so you keep it
3 up, all right?
4 A. Okay. I will.
5 Q. Let me start all over again and ask you
6 again. Are you related to Jordan Chandler?
7 A. Yes, I am. He is my son.
8 Q. Do you have any other sons or daughters?
9 A. Yes, I have a daughter.
10 Q. And her name?
11 A. Lily Chandler.
12 Q. And how old is Lily right now?
13 A. 17 years old.
14 Q. Now, in 1992 and 1993, were you married?
15 A. Yes, I was.
16 Q. And to whom were you married?
17 A. To David Schwartz.
18 Q. And is David Schwartz the father of either
19 of your children?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Which one?
22 A. Lily Chandler.
23 Q. And prior to your marriage with David
24 Schwartz, you were married to Evan Chandler,
26 A. Correct.
27 Q. And Evan Chandler is the father of Jordan
28 Chandler? 5597
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. What is Jordan’s date of birth?
3 A. January 11th, 1980.
4 Q. And to your knowledge, had -- by the time of
5 the events in 1992 and ‘93, had Evan Chandler
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And do you know his wife or did you know his
9 wife at that time?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. And her name is?
12 A. Natalie Chandler.
13 Q. And did they have any other children?
14 A. Yes, they did.
15 Q. And the child’s name?
16 A. Nicky Chandler. And Emmanuelle Chandler.
17 Q. And at the time of 1992 and 1993, can you
18 give us the approximate ages of those children?
19 A. As best as I can recall, seven and four.
20 Q. And who is the oldest?
21 A. Nicky Chandler, the son.
22 Q. Okay. Now, I want to show you some
23 photographs. The first photograph we have that’s
24 marked is 793, the next one is 794, and the next one
25 is 795, okay?
26 The first one, 793, I’ll ask you if you
27 recognize the person depicted in that photograph?
28 A. No, I do not. 5598
1 Q. Have you ever seen that person before?
2 A. Not that I recall.
3 Q. And I want to show you a photograph marked
4 as 794, or Exhibit 794. Do you recognize the people
5 depicted in that photograph?
6 A. Not that I recall.
7 Q. Neither the top nor the bottom?
8 A. He might look familiar.
9 Q. Okay. And the bottom photograph?
10 A. I don’t recall.
11 Q. And with regard to Exhibit No. 795, do you
12 recognize any of the people depicted in that
14 A. I recall this boy and Michael Jackson.
15 Q. All right. “This boy” meaning the person on
16 the far left-hand side of the Exhibit 795?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And do you recall the boy’s name?
19 A. Brett Barnes.
20 Q. Do you recall where you saw Mr. Barnes, or
21 the child Barnes?
22 A. At Neverland.
23 Q. Okay. So with regard to the Photographs
24 793, 794 and 795, none of those photographs are
25 pictures of your son, correct?
26 A. No. No.
27 Q. I want to show you 776; ask you if you
28 recognize that photograph? 5599
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. And who is that?
3 A. That’s my son.
4 Q. Your son?
5 A. Jordan.
6 Q. All right. Thank you.
7 Your Honor, with the Court’s permission, I’d
8 like to publish these just so the jury knows what
9 the witness has testified to.
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 MR. SNEDDON: And we’re going to do it on
12 the Elmo, Your Honor. So if we could have that.
13 All right, Gordon?
14 Q. All right. The photograph that’s on the
15 board that’s 793 is an exhibit of the child with the
16 long black hair. And that is not your son, Jordan
18 A. No, it’s not.
19 Q. All right. And the next exhibit would be
20 794. And specifically I’m going to direct your
21 attention to the child sitting on the floor with the
22 arrow drawn up to him. Do you recognize that child?
23 A. Barely.
24 Q. Who do you think that -- when you say
25 “barely,” who do you recognize --
26 A. I would say it’s probably a younger photo of
27 the boy above.
28 Q. And do you recognize who the boy above in 5600
1 that photograph is?
2 A. I think that’s Brett Barnes.
3 Q. Okay. And the last photo is 795. And you
4 indicated the child on the far left-hand side of the
5 photograph; is that correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. The child with the hat next to Mr. Jackson?
8 A. Correct. That’s Brett Barnes.
9 Q. That’s Brett Barnes. All right. Thank you.
10 And lastly, the photograph marked as 776,
11 you’ve identified that as your child, Jordan,
13 A. My son Jordan.
14 Q. Your son Jordan?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right. Thank you.
17 We can have the lights again, Your Honor.
18 Now, Mrs. Chandler, do you recognize the
19 defendant in this case, Michael Jackson?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. And have you been in Mr. Jackson’s presence
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, your son Jordan, did you have -- let me
25 go back in time. Did you have an occasion where you
26 actually met Michael Jackson?
27 A. Yes, I had an occasion.
28 Q. For the first time? 5601
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of
3 the jury, where did that occur?
4 A. That occurred at my ex-husband’s employment,
6 Q. And where is that located?
7 A. In West L.A.
8 Q. And was -- do you remember about
9 approximately when that occurred?
10 A. It was in the summer of ‘92. Late summer.
11 Q. And were you actually at the -- your
12 husband’s place of business when Mr. Jackson showed
14 A. After he showed up, yes.
15 Q. Okay. You received a telephone call from
17 A. Yes, from my ex-husband.
18 Q. And by the way, your ex-husband’s name is
20 A. David Schwartz.
21 Q. Did you ever take Mr. Schwartz’s last name?
22 A. No, I did not.
23 Q. So you’ve always been June Chandler?
24 A. I’ve always been June Chandler.
25 Q. So you received a telephone call and then
26 you went down to his place of business?
27 A. Yes, I did.
28 Q. With regard to your son Jordan, did Jordan 5602
1 go with you?
2 A. Yes, he did.
3 Q. Was Mr. Jackson there?
4 A. Yes, he was.
5 Q. And do you recall how long you were with Mr.
6 Jackson and Jordan that day?
7 A. Briefly. Five minutes. Ten minutes.
8 Q. And did -- was there any information
9 exchanged between you and Mr. Jackson that day?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what was that?
12 A. I said, “If you would like to see Jordie or
13 if he could call you or if you’d like to speak to
14 him, here is our number, and you can give him a
16 Q. And you gave that to Mr. Jackson?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Now, let me go back in time. Before this
19 meeting that you had at your husband’s place of
20 business in 1992, had Jordan ever expressed, to your
21 knowledge, some admiration for Mr. Jackson?
22 A. Oh, very much so, yes.
23 Q. How did he display that admiration?
24 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
25 MR. SNEDDON: I didn’t ask for a statement,
26 Your Honor. I asked for a display.
27 THE COURT: All right.
28 He’s not asking for anything that was said. 5603
1 Do you understand the question?
2 THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the question,
4 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Yes.
5 How did your son Jordan, prior to this
6 meeting that occurred at David Schwartz’s place of
7 business, express -- display his admiration for Mr.
9 A. He had a little sparkly jacket that he would
10 wear to parties. He would have a glove like Michael
11 Jackson, and dance around like Michael Jackson.
12 Q. And this was all before he met Mr. Jackson?
13 A. Before he met Michael Jackson, yes.
14 Q. Now, after the incident occurred where there
15 was an exchange where you gave Mr. Jackson your
16 telephone number -- and let me go back and ask you a
17 question about that. Was the telephone number you
18 gave him your home number?
19 A. Yes, it was.
20 Q. Did -- to your knowledge, did Mr. Jackson
21 ever call your son Jordan?
22 A. Yes, he did.
23 Q. And do you recall, for the ladies and
24 gentlemen of the jury, approximately what the time
25 span was from the incident that occurred at your
26 ex-husband’s place of business to the time that Mr.
27 Jackson actually called your son?
28 A. To the best of my recollection, it could 5604
1 have been a month or two after our first meeting
2 with Michael Jackson at Rent-A-Wreck.
3 Q. Were you actually in the room when Mr.
4 Jackson called?
5 A. I don’t recall being in the room, but I
6 might have been.
7 Q. Do you recall at some time visiting
8 Neverland Ranch?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Do you recall approximately when that
12 A. I recall around February.
13 Q. Of?
14 A. 1993.
15 Q. 1993?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So what I want to ask you is, between the
18 time that Mr. Jackson started calling your son to
19 the time that you went to Neverland Ranch, can you
20 give the jury some idea of the number of times Mr.
21 Jackson called your son Jordan?
22 A. To the best of my recollection --
23 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; foundation.
24 THE COURT: Sustained.
25 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Were you present in the
26 house when these conversations occurred?
27 A. Yes, I was.
28 Q. Did you sometimes answer the phone? 5605
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And Mr. Jackson was on the line?
3 A. Yes, he was.
4 Q. And were you also present in the house
5 during the time to observe the length of the
6 conversations between your son and Mr. Jackson?
7 A. Yes, I was.
8 Q. On more than one occasion?
9 A. Absolutely.
10 Q. All right. So based upon your observations
11 and the things that you saw and the things that you
12 heard, give us an estimate of the number of times,
13 that you know of, that Mr. Jackson called your son
15 A. I would say eight to ten times.
16 Q. And with regard to those conversations in
17 which you have personal knowledge of the length of
18 time, could you give the jury some idea of how long
19 these conversations lasted?
20 A. It was from maybe ten minutes, to an hour,
21 or an hour and a half. It progressed. It got
22 longer and longer.
23 Q. Could you describe to the jury what your
24 son’s reaction was to these phone calls?
25 A. He was excited to hear from him. They were
26 talking about things that interested Jordie, so,
27 um --
28 Q. In those occasions where you picked up the 5606
1 phone and you talked to Mr. Jackson, did he tell you
2 where he was?
3 A. No, he didn’t tell me. No.
4 Q. Now, how is it that you and Jordan ended up
5 going to Neverland Valley Ranch for the first time?
6 A. We were invited to go to Neverland, because
7 during those conversations, Michael Jackson said,
8 “Would you like to come to visit? When I am
9 finished touring,” he was doing a European tour, I
10 think, he said we can come and visit. And my son
11 was very excited to be able to go up there and see
13 Q. Now, the first time you went to Neverland,
14 you told the jury it was sometime in February of
15 1993. How did you get there?
16 A. I drove.
17 Q. And who went with you besides Jordan, if
19 A. My daughter Lily.
20 Q. And at this point in time, how old was Lily?
21 A. Was seven, I think. Seven or eight.
22 Q. And Jordan was born in 1980, so he was 13
23 years old at the time you made the first visit,
25 A. 12, 13, yes. Yes.
26 Q. And do you recall whether it was during the
27 week or on a weekend that you visited?
28 A. On a weekend. 5607
1 Q. During the time that you were -- during this
2 first visit, do you recall how many days you were
4 A. Oh, two nights.
5 Q. Okay. So two nights and at least two days
6 and possibly a third day?
7 A. Two nights. There was not a third day.
8 Q. And where did you stay while you were at the
10 A. Guest cottage.
11 Q. Where did you personally stay?
12 A. The guest cottages at Neverland.
13 Q. And was there somebody in your cottage with
15 A. Yes, my daughter and my son.
16 Q. So Jordan stayed with you and Lily in the
17 same cottage?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And was this during the entire length of
20 this first visit?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And while you were at the ranch during the
23 first visit, did you see Mr. Jackson?
24 A. Yes, we did.
25 Q. And did you spend time with Mr. Jackson?
26 A. Yes, I did.
27 Q. Did you spend a lot of time with Mr.
28 Jackson? 5608
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And when you say, “Yes, I did,” can you tell
3 us about what Jordan and Lily did?
4 A. We were all either taking rides on the
5 Ferris wheel, playing video games. Jordie and
6 Michael were playing video games. I was watching.
7 Lily was playing. We looked at his animals that he
8 had. Just different things that were at Neverland.
9 Q. Okay. And I think you’ve described that as
10 being an amazing weekend?
11 A. Yes. Fun.
12 Q. Now, during the time that you were there on
13 this first visit, do you recall whether or not you
14 went with Mr. Jackson to a business called
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And could you tell us about that?
18 A. I guess it was after hours, after Toys-R-Us
19 closed, and Michael said, “Jordie and Lily, you get
20 to go shopping and buy toys, get toys.”
21 So we went and --
22 Q. When you say “we went,” who’s “we”?
23 A. Lily and Jordie and Michael and I went. And
24 they had fun. They were shopping and Michael bought
25 lots of things for them. They picked out stuff, and
26 they were showered with great presents from
28 Q. And Mr. Jackson paid for all of that? 5609
1 A. I -- yes, he did.
2 Q. You didn’t, right?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Now, after you left Neverland Valley Ranch
5 after this first visit, did you ever go back to
6 Neverland Valley Ranch?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And do you recall how much time elapsed
9 between the first time you went there and the second
10 time you went back?
11 A. It could be a week later or two weeks after.
12 Q. And when you went back the second time, do
13 you recall how you got there?
14 A. I -- to the best of my recollection, I was
15 picked up by Michael Jackson.
16 Q. When you say “picked up by Michael Jackson,”
17 in what form of transportation was that?
18 A. In his car, limo.
19 Q. And who else was with you when you got
20 picked up? I mean, from your family. Let’s start
21 that way first.
22 A. It was Lily, my daughter, and Jordan.
23 Q. So the three of you?
24 A. My son.
25 Q. The three of you went back to the ranch?
26 A. Right.
27 Q. Was there anybody else in the limo that you
28 recall with Mr. Jackson? 5610
1 A. Well --
2 Q. Let me go back and make something clear.
3 A. Sure.
4 Q. Was Mr. Jackson actually in the limo
6 A. Yes, he was.
7 Q. Now, let’s ask the question --
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. -- was there anybody else in the limo other
10 than Mr. Jackson and the three of you?
11 A. Yes, there was Brett Barnes.
12 Q. And do you recall where Mr. -- where the
13 child Brett -- let me ask you this: With regard to
14 Brett Barnes, can you estimate about approximately
15 what age you felt Brett Barnes was at this point?
16 A. 11. 10, 11.
17 Q. So he was a child?
18 A. He was a child.
19 Q. And where was Brett Barnes in the car in
20 relationship to Mr. Jackson?
21 A. Sitting next to Michael Jackson.
22 Q. Now, on the second visit you went to the
23 ranch, do you recall how long you stayed?
24 A. A weekend.
25 Q. And did you spend time -- did you personally
26 spend time with Mr. Jackson that weekend?
27 A. Yes, I did.
28 Q. Did Jordan spend time with him that weekend? 5611
1 A. Yes, he did.
2 Q. And did you see Brett Barnes around there
3 that weekend?
4 A. Yes. I don’t really remember, but yes, he
5 was there, too. Yes, he was enjoying that time
7 Q. And where did you personally sleep during
8 your stay, the second visit to Neverland Valley
10 A. Guest cottages.
11 Q. Where did Lily stay?
12 A. In the guest cottages.
13 Q. And where did your son Jordan stay?
14 A. In the guest cottages.
15 Q. Now, the guest cottages are all located in
16 one general area, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. They’re all sort of connected into one
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. With regard to that building, did you ever
22 see Brett Barnes anywhere around the building and
23 the cottages?
24 A. Not that I recall.
25 Q. Now, how did you get home from Neverland on
26 this second visit?
27 A. We were driven home.
28 Q. In a limo? 5612
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was Mr. Jackson present?
3 A. I don’t recall.
4 Q. Was there ever an occasion where you went to
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And do you recall when that happened in
8 relationship to like either one of these first,
9 second visits?
10 A. That could have been that weekend, the
11 second weekend that we were at Neverland that we
12 went -- instead of going to Los Angeles, we went to
13 Anaheim, to Disneyland. It could have been that
15 Q. And who all went to Disneyland?
16 A. I remember Jordan, Lily, Michael and I, and
17 perhaps Brett.
18 Q. Now, did you ever have an occasion to visit
19 Neverland Valley Ranch again?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And do you remember approximately how much
22 time elapsed between the second visit and the third
24 A. It could have been a week. A weekend.
25 Q. And when you went to the ranch on this third
26 occasion, was Mr. Jackson present?
27 A. Yes, he was.
28 Q. And where did you sleep? 5613
1 A. In the guest cottages.
2 Q. And where did Lily sleep?
3 A. In the guest cottages.
4 Q. And where did Jordan sleep?
5 A. In the guest cottages.
6 Q. At some point in time during any one of
7 these three visits to -- these three visits you’ve
8 described to the jury, did your son request to sleep
9 in Mr. Jackson’s bedroom?
10 A. Yes --
11 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
12 THE WITNESS: -- he did.
13 THE COURT: Overruled. Next question.
14 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: And do you recall during
15 which one of the visits it was that the request
17 A. Oh, the third visit.
18 Q. And did you allow him to do that?
19 A. No, I did not.
20 Q. Did you notice -- I may not have asked this
21 with regard to the third visit, but you indicated in
22 at least the first visit that Jordan slept with you
23 in your guest cottage, correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. In the second visit, did Jordan sleep with
26 you in your guest cottage?
27 A. Yes, he did.
28 Q. And the third visit, did Jordan sleep with 5614
1 you in your guest cottage?
2 A. Yes, he did.
3 Q. Did you notice anything with regard to what
4 time of the day or night it was that Jordan finally
5 came to your cottage to go to bed?
6 A. I assume it was late, after eleven o’clock.
7 Q. Why do you assume that?
8 A. Because they were playing all day and all
9 night. And it was a weekend. He did not have
10 school, so he was allowed to stay up later than
12 Q. During any of your visits to Neverland
13 Valley Ranch, did you ever meet any children from
14 New Jersey?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you remember their names?
17 A. Frankie and Eddie.
18 Q. And with regard to Frankie at this point in
19 time, do you recall approximately how old Frankie
21 A. Around the same age as Jordan, or maybe
23 Q. And how about Eddie?
24 A. I don’t recall. I don’t know which one is
26 Q. Do you recall their last name at all?
27 A. Cascio.
28 Q. And do you remember which one of the visits 5615
1 to the ranch was it that you met Frank Cascio?
2 A. No, I don’t.
3 Q. Was there -- was there some point in time
4 when you took a trip with Mr. Jackson to Las Vegas?
5 A. Yes, there was.
6 Q. And do you remember when that trip occurred?
7 Just approximately what month, for instance?
8 A. The end of March.
9 Q. Of 1993?
10 A. Of ‘93. Correct.
11 Q. Excuse me, my allergies are acting up today.
12 How did you get to Las Vegas?
13 A. By jet, private jet.
14 Q. And who was with you on the jet?
15 A. My son Jordan, Lily, myself and Michael.
16 Q. And when you got to Las Vegas, where did you
17 stay, what hotel?
18 A. The Mirage Hotel.
19 Q. And when you got to The Mirage Hotel, do you
20 remember what time of day or night it was?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you remember how long you stayed in Las
23 Vegas on this occasion?
24 A. Two or three nights.
25 Q. Now, when you got to Las Vegas, did you
26 have -- obviously you had a room --
27 A. Correct.
28 Q. -- in The Mirage. 5616
1 And who was in your room when you first got
2 there? Who was staying in your room?
3 A. Jordan, myself, Lily and Michael.
4 Q. All in the same room?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Now, did those arrangements change at any
7 point in time?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And when did they change?
10 A. The second night things changed.
11 Q. With regard to “things changed,” could you
12 tell me what changed first?
13 A. Well, there were approximately three
14 bedrooms in that suite at the Mirage Hotel. Lily
15 and I were staying in one bedroom, Jordie had
16 another bedroom, and Michael had another bedroom.
17 The second night, they were going to see a
18 performance, Cirque du Soleil performance.
19 Q. “They” meaning who?
20 A. Jordie and Michael --
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. -- and Lily and I. It was around 11 p.m. at
23 night, and I got a call from somebody at Cirque du
24 Soleil saying, “Where is Michael?” And I said, “He
25 should be there with my son.” They said, “He’s not
27 A little while later, another call, he still
28 didn’t show up. They still did not show up. And 5617
1 I -- there’s a knock on the door and it’s Michael
2 and Jordan, and they came back into the suite.
3 Michael --
4 Q. Now, let me stop you right there, okay?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. About what time is it when your son Jordan
7 and the defendant in this case, Mr. Jackson, showed
9 A. Well, I think the performance started at
10 11:00, and I would say Jordan and Michael showed up
11 around 11:30.
12 Q. Now, could you describe for the jury Mr.
13 Jackson’s demeanor at the time that they came back
14 to the room?
15 A. He was sobbing. He was crying, shaking,
17 Q. Michael Jackson was?
18 A. He was.
19 Q. And what about your son’s demeanor?
20 A. He was quiet.
21 Q. Now, at that point in time, did Mr. Jackson
22 tell you why he was upset or crying?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. Tell the jury what he said.
25 A. He said, “You don’t trust me? We’re a
26 family. Why are you doing this? Why are you not
27 allowing Jordie to be with me?” And I said, “He is
28 with you.” 5618
1 He said, “But my bedroom. Why not in my
2 bedroom? We fall asleep, the kids have fun.
3 Boys” --
4 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
6 THE COURT: Narrative; sustained.
7 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. Tell us what -
8 Mr. Jackson said that he wanted your son to sleep
9 with him in his bed - what you said to Mr. Jackson.
10 A. What I said to Michael was, “This is not” --
11 “This is not anything that I want. This is not
12 right. Jordie should be able to do what he wants to
13 do. He should be able to fall asleep where he wants
14 to sleep.”
15 Q. Is this you talking or Mr. Jackson speaking?
16 A. I was saying this. And Michael was
17 trembling and saying, “We’re a family. Jordie is
18 having fun. Why can’t he sleep in my bed? There’s
19 nothing wrong. There’s nothing going on. Don’t you
20 trust me?”
21 Q. All right. How long do you think this
22 conversation lasted between you and Mr. Jackson over
23 where Jordan was going to sleep that night?
24 A. I would say 20 to 30, 40 minutes.
25 Q. So it was a back-and-forth conversation; is
26 that right?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Do you recall how many times during that 5619
1 conversation that Mr. Jackson emphasized the fact
2 that you didn’t trust him?
3 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
4 THE WITNESS: No, I don’t recall how many
5 times --
6 THE COURT: Just a moment.
7 THE WITNESS: I’m sorry.
8 THE COURT: Overruled.
9 Go ahead. You may answer.
10 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Go ahead.
11 A. I don’t recall how many times.
12 Q. Was it on more than one occasion?
13 A. Absolutely, yes.
14 Q. Was it on many occasions?
15 A. Quite a few.
16 Q. Do you remember how many times during the
17 conversation that Mr. Jackson emphasized to you that
18 you were family?
19 A. Many times.
20 Q. Did you at some point in time relent and
21 allow your son to sleep with Michael Jackson in his
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. And was it after that discussion on that
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Is that the first occasion?
28 A. Correct. 5620
1 Q. When you were in Las Vegas, do you remember
2 how many of the nights in Las Vegas that your son
3 Jordan slept with the defendant, Michael Jackson, in
4 Michael Jackson’s room?
5 A. I would say two occasions.
6 Q. Now, at some point in time after you had
7 agreed to let your son Jordan sleep with Mr.
8 Jackson, were you the recipient of a gift from Mr.
10 A. Yes, I was.
11 Q. Would you describe that to the jury?
12 A. It was a gold bracelet, and it was given to
13 me by Michael.
14 Q. And you say “a gold bracelet.” Had you seen
15 that gold bracelet in a shop of some kind before?
16 A. I had seen it before, yes.
17 Q. And the brand name on that bracelet?
18 A. Cartier.
19 Q. Was it expensive, to your knowledge?
20 A. Oh, I -- yes, it was.
21 Q. When was it you received this gift in
22 relationship to having agreed to allow your son to
23 sleep in bed with Mr. Jackson?
24 A. I think it was the next evening when we were
25 attending a show, a magic show, by David
27 Q. Mrs. Chandler, do you recall after Las Vegas
28 where you went, where you personally and Jordan 5621
1 went? When you came back from Vegas, where did you
2 go; do you recall?
3 A. After Vegas, I -- it could be back to
4 Disneyland, back to Neverland, or home. I’m not
5 exactly certain.
6 Q. Was Mr. Jackson with you wherever it was
7 that you went? Did he go back with you, in other
9 A. Yes, he did.
10 Q. And did Mr. Jackson continue to spend his
11 nights with your son in the same room, in the same
12 bed, from Las Vegas, from that point on?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Were there other visits to Neverland Valley
15 Ranch after you came back from Las Vegas?
16 A. Yes, there were.
17 Q. And were there occasions when your son went
18 up to the ranch where you and Lily did not accompany
19 him to the ranch?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you remember on how many such occasions?
22 A. I would say two or three times.
23 Q. And were there occasions also where you and
24 Lily and Jordan also went up to the ranch after Las
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And on those occasions when you went up to
28 the ranch after Las Vegas, where did you stay? 5622
1 A. I stayed in the guest cottages.
2 Q. And where did Lily stay?
3 A. In the guest cottages.
4 Q. And where did Jordan stay?
5 A. In Michael Jackson’s bedroom.
6 Q. Were there ever any occasions that you
7 recall where you actually, when you got to the
8 ranch, that you would take Jordan’s suitcase in and
9 take it into Mr. Jackson’s bedroom and leave it
11 A. Possibly.
12 Q. So you knew that he was going to be spending
13 the night with Michael Jackson in Michael Jackson’s
14 bedroom at this point in time?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, were there occasions after you got back
17 from Las Vegas -- let me -- where Mr. Jackson
18 actually was invited to stay at your residence where
19 you lived at this point in time?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, what city was it that you lived in at
22 this time?
23 A. Santa Monica.
24 Q. We’re talking about 1993, in the spring,
26 A. Correct.
27 Q. Okay. Where did you live?
28 A. Santa Monica. 5623
1 Q. And at this point in time, was Mr. Schwartz
2 living with you?
3 A. No, he wasn’t.
4 Q. So in the household was there anybody
5 besides you and Jordan and Lily?
6 A. My housekeeper.
7 Q. And was that a full-time housekeeper?
8 A. Yes, she was.
9 Q. 24 hours a day?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did she live in the house?
12 A. Yes, she did. She was a live-in.
13 Q. That’s what I meant. Sorry. Clumsy
15 And during this time, did Mr. Jackson ever
16 spend the night at your residence?
17 A. Yes, he did.
18 Q. And do you recall on how many occasions Mr.
19 Jackson spent the night at your residence?
20 A. I would say more than 30 times.
21 Q. And were some of those occasions on
22 consecutive days or nights?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And how long consecutively do you think that
25 that occurred?
26 A. Oh. It could be a week or two at a time.
27 Q. Where did Mr. Jackson stay in the house?
28 A. In Jordan’s bedroom. 5624
1 Q. Are there more than one bed in that room?
2 A. No.
3 Q. I am assuming that Jordan was going to
4 school during this period of time.
5 A. He was.
6 Q. So Mr. Jackson would spend the night there.
7 What would happen when Jordan would go to school?
8 To your knowledge, what did Mr. Jackson do?
9 A. Michael would leave.
10 Q. And approximately what time would he return?
11 A. After Jordan came home from school.
12 Q. And so was this the routine that was
13 followed during the time that Mr. Jackson was
14 staying at your residence?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you ever -- have you ever been to Disney
17 World --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- in Orlando, Florida?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And have you been to Disney World with the
22 defendant in this case, Michael Jackson?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And do you remember approximately when it
25 was that you went to Disney World with Mr. Jackson?
26 A. I would say in May.
27 Q. Of ‘93?
28 A. Of ‘93. 5625
1 Q. And when you went to Disney World with Mr.
2 Jackson, who else went with you?
3 A. Jordan and Lily.
4 Q. Do you recall where you stayed?
5 A. I recall The Grand Floridian was one hotel.
6 Q. And during the time that -- do you remember
7 how many days -- did you go there on more than one
9 A. Yes, we did.
10 Q. How many occasions?
11 A. Twice.
12 Q. And do you recall what the sleeping
13 arrangements were on the first occasion?
14 A. Jordie was with Michael and Lily was with
16 Q. And when you say “with Michael” --
17 A. In Michael’s bedroom.
18 Q. Now, during the time that you visited Disney
19 World in Orlando, would you describe the nature of
20 the relationship that was going on, that you
21 observed personally, between the defendant in this
22 case, Michael Jackson, and your son Jordan?
23 A. The behavior, you say?
24 Q. Yeah.
25 A. The behavior with my son was he was not
26 wanting to be with Lily and I anymore, and he was
27 just with Michael the whole time, and he wasn’t too
28 happy. Just -- well, I couldn’t -- I didn’t have 5626
1 any communication with him really.
2 Q. Was this something that you observed for the
3 first time in Orlando or was this something that you
4 began to observe over a period of time?
5 A. It was a period of time, and it gradually
7 Q. Did you notice any change in your son --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- Jordan?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What was the nature of the change?
12 A. Well, he started dressing like Michael. He
13 started acting withdrawn, sort of smart-alecky. Not
14 as sweet as he normally was. And withdrawn. He
15 just didn’t want to be with us, Lily and I.
16 Q. Had you always been close prior to that?
17 A. Extremely close.
18 Q. Do you -- I think you answered this, but
19 just in case, how many days did you think you were
20 in Florida?
21 A. Oh, I don’t really remember, but it’s
22 probably more than two nights. Two, three nights.
23 Q. And after you came back from Florida, do you
24 recall where you went?
25 A. After that, I think the next trip was to
27 Q. In between the time that you went to Florida
28 and to Monaco, do you recall where you were -- where 5627
1 you were personally staying?
2 A. No. I guess home.
3 Q. Do you remember how much time elapsed
4 between the two trips?
5 A. Not really, no.
6 Q. Was it more than a month, more than a week?
7 Obviously it was more than a day or so.
8 A. Yes. It was a couple -- it could be three
10 Q. And during that time when you got back from
11 Florida till the time that you left for Monaco, were
12 you with Mr. Jackson?
13 A. At times.
14 Q. And the times that you were with Mr.
15 Jackson, was Jordan with Mr. Jackson?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And when he’s with Mr. Jackson, where did he
19 A. With Mr. Jackson.
20 Q. Do you know somebody by the name of Joy
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know somebody by the name of Wade
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And do you recall where it was that you met
27 Joy Robeson?
28 A. Yes, I do. 5628
1 Q. Where was that?
2 A. That was at Neverland, one of the visits.
3 Q. Do you recall when it was that you met Wade
5 A. One of the visits to Neverland.
6 Q. And do you recall approximately which visit
7 it would have been or what month it would have been
8 that you met these individuals?
9 A. It could have been my third visit to
11 Q. Did you meet them on more than one occasion?
12 A. I met Wade on more than one occasion, yes.
13 Q. And how many times did you meet Joy Robeson?
14 A. One.
15 Q. One occasion?
16 A. That I remember.
17 Q. There were occasions when Wade Robeson was
18 there that the mother was not there?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Now, you’ve indicated to the jury on at
21 least one occasion, perhaps two, that Brett Barnes
22 was also at Neverland Valley Ranch?
23 A. Yes, he was there too.
24 Q. And did you ever meet Brett Barnes’ mother?
25 A. No.
26 Q. So he was at the ranch by himself also?
27 A. Oh, yes. Yes, he was.
28 Q. Did you ever meet a Mr. Robeson, the father? 5629
1 A. No. No, not that I remember.
2 Q. Did you ever meet a Mr. Barnes at any point?
3 A. Not that I remember, no.
4 Q. So no fathers in the picture?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Now, prior to the time that you met Joe
7 Robeson for the first time - okay? --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- on your visit to Neverland Valley Ranch,
10 did you have a discussion with the defendant in this
11 case, Mr. Jackson, with regard to some warnings that
12 Mr. Jackson gave you about Joy Robeson?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What did Mr. Jackson tell you?
15 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Relevance.
16 MR. SNEDDON: I think it’s an admission of
17 Mr. Jackson with regard to the relationship with the
19 MR. MESEREAU: Relevance and hearsay.
20 THE COURT: I’m not sure what you’re trying
21 to introduce. I’m searching my memory for that. I
22 don’t know, maybe you should approach with counsel.
23 MR. SNEDDON: Thank you, Your Honor.
24 (Discussion held off the record at sidebar.)
25 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Mrs. Chandler?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Okay. Now, you had a conversation with Mr.
28 Jackson, is that correct? 5630
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, at the time -- and please do not tell
3 us what was said, but did you subsequently have a
4 conversation with Miss Robeson --
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. -- wade’s mother?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Okay. Now, after that conversation, did you
9 develop any concerns about some of the things that
10 she had told you?
11 A. I --
12 Q. I think you have to answer that “yes” or
13 “no.” We don’t want to get into what she said.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And with regard to that particular
16 conversation, let me ask you this: Had you been
17 invited by the defendant in this case, Mr. Jackson,
18 to go on a tour with him, you and Jordan?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And where were you invited by Mr. Jackson to
21 go on a tour?
22 A. I don’t know where the tour was going. I
23 guess a world tour somewhere in the summertime.
24 Q. Do you know where Miss Robeson, Mrs.
25 Robeson, was from, what country?
26 A. Australia.
27 Q. Do you know whether one of the stops on that
28 tour was going to be Australia? 5631
1 A. I think it was, yes.
2 Q. Okay. Let’s talk a little bit about your
3 trip to France.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you recall approximately when that was?
6 A. I think the middle of May.
7 Q. And how did you get there?
8 A. We flew.
9 Q. And was it on a charter or a commercial
11 A. Commercial airline.
12 Q. And you say “we,” so could you tell us who
13 it was that you went with?
14 A. My daughter, my son and Michael.
15 Q. And when you got to France, where in France
16 did you stay?
17 A. Monaco.
18 Q. And how long were you in Monaco?
19 A. Approximately four days.
20 Q. And during the time that you were there,
21 where did your son Jordan sleep?
22 A. In Michael Jackson’s bedroom.
23 Q. Now, did you ever go into that bedroom?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And were they in bed together on occasion?
26 A. On occasion, yes.
27 Q. Now, during the time that you were in
28 Monaco, did you do any shopping? 5632
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And how was it that you -- well, let me put
3 it this way: Who went shopping with you?
4 A. My daughter.
5 Q. You and Lily?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And how many days did you do that?
8 A. Oh. One day.
9 Q. And who was paying for the --
10 A. Michael was.
11 Q. I’m sorry?
12 A. Michael was.
13 Q. And how did he arrange that?
14 A. I think I was given a credit card, his
15 credit card.
16 Q. So you went shopping in Monaco on Michael
17 Jackson’s credit card, you and your daughter?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, during this trip, did either your son
20 or Mr. Jackson get ill?
21 A. Yes, they both did.
22 Q. They had the flu?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And were they in the room together the
25 entire time?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And when you went to France, did you go to
28 any other country, any other places in France, other 5633
1 than Monte Carlo?
2 A. We also went to Euro Disney outside of
4 Q. And do you recall how long you were there?
5 A. A couple of days.
6 Q. Again, when you say “we,” you’re talking
7 about Jordan and Lily, and was the defendant with
9 A. Yes, he was.
10 Q. And you say you spent a couple of days.
11 Where did Jordan sleep?
12 A. With Michael Jackson.
13 Q. Now, do you have a brother?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. What’s your brother’s name?
16 A. I have two brothers.
17 Q. What are their names?
18 A. Steven Wong and Dale Wong.
19 Q. And was there a time when one of your
20 brothers -- where do they live? Let’s go that way.
21 A. One lives in Los Angeles. And the other
22 lives back east in New Jersey.
23 Q. And was there a time when you went back east
24 for a family wedding?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Do you remember about what month that was?
27 A. That was in September.
28 Q. And do you recall who it was who was getting 5634
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who was that?
4 A. That was my brother Steve and his wife.
5 Q. And when you went back for the wedding, what
6 city did you go to?
7 A. We went to New York City.
8 Q. And when you went back there, who went with
10 A. My son, my daughter, and myself.
11 Q. And when you first got there, where did you
13 A. We stayed in a hotel.
14 Q. Do you remember the name of the hotel?
15 A. Yes, The Rega Royal Hotel.
16 Q. And do you know who made the arrangements
17 for that hotel?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Who was that?
20 A. Norma Stakos.
21 Q. And do you know who Mrs. Stakos is? Had you
22 had prior dealings with Mrs. Stakos?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. On a number of occasions?
25 A. Telephone conversations only.
26 Q. And who did she work for?
27 A. She worked for Michael Jackson.
28 Q. And so she made the reservations for you at 5635
1 the hotel?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When did you learn that Mr. Jackson was
4 going to be with you in New York? Before or after
5 you left?
6 A. Before.
7 Q. Do you remember how many days before you
8 learned that?
9 A. Not really, no. I don’t remember.
10 Q. On the day of the actual wedding, was Mr.
11 Jackson there?
12 A. No, he was not.
13 Q. When did he show up in relationship to the
15 A. After the wedding.
16 Q. Do you remember how many days he showed up,
17 how many days later?
18 A. It could be two days later.
19 Q. Now, when Mr. Jackson got there, did you see
21 A. That evening briefly.
22 Q. Okay. Now, had something happened during
23 the time that you were in New York with your son
24 Jordan before Mr. Jackson arrived which caused some
25 problems in the family?
26 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading and
28 THE COURT: Overruled. 5636
1 You may answer.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: What was it?
4 A. Jordan was spending too much time with
5 Michael. I was getting upset. My brother was also
6 with me, and he was saying --
7 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
8 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Don’t tell us what he said,
9 but --
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. -- could you describe his demeanor to us?
12 A. Jordan was not with us. He didn’t want to
13 be with us. He was very -- he was sullen.
14 Q. Now, during this time, Mr. Jackson was not
15 there, correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And to your knowledge, from your own
18 personal knowledge, were Mr. Jackson and your son
19 Jordan in communication with each other during this
20 period of time?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. By what method?
23 A. Telephone.
24 Q. And the frequency?
25 A. Often. Often. Long conversations.
26 Q. And was your brother upset by the situation,
28 A. Yes. 5637
1 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.
4 THE COURT: Stricken.
5 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Could you describe to
6 the -- describe your brother’s reaction to this
7 situation that was -- that existed between Mr.
8 Jackson and your son Jordan.
9 A. Yes. My brother was happy for Jordan, but
10 he didn’t like that Jordie was just spending time
11 with Michael and not with his family.
12 Q. Now, when Mr. Jackson showed up in New York,
13 do you recall where he was staying?
14 A. Yes, he was staying across the hallway from
15 my room.
16 Q. And when Michael Jackson showed up, where
17 did Jordan sleep?
18 A. When Michael Jackson showed up, he slept in
19 Michael’s room.
20 Q. Now, when Mr. Jackson showed up the first
21 night, was there an incident that occurred in your
23 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
24 THE WITNESS: My room?
25 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Yeah.
26 A. Yes, there was an incident.
27 MR. SNEDDON: You have to wait till the
28 Judge rules. 5638
1 THE COURT: Overruled.
2 You can answer.
3 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Okay, you can answer now.
4 A. Yes, there was an incident.
5 Q. Who was involved in the incident?
6 A. My daughter Lily --
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. -- Michael and Jordan.
9 Q. And when you got back to your particular
10 room, did you notice any damage in the room?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. And what was damaged?
13 A. I noticed there was damage in the morning.
14 There were two lamps that were broken.
15 Q. Now, did you at some point talk to Mr.
16 Jackson about what had happened the night before?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And with regard to that conversation, did it
19 involve Jordan?
20 A. Yes, it did.
21 Q. And did it involve you?
22 A. Yes, it did.
23 Q. And did it involve Mr. Jackson?
24 A. Yes, it did.
25 Q. And the relationship between the two or
26 three of you?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Would you tell the jury what the 5639
1 conversation was about?
2 MR. MESEREAU: Objection to the extent it
3 calls for hearsay.
4 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, this involves the
5 defendant and it involves statements that he makes.
6 THE COURT: But that’s not the question you
7 asked. I’ll sustain the objection.
8 Excuse me. Sustain the objection.
9 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. Let’s do it
10 this way. What did Mr. Jackson say about the
12 A. “Why can’t we be a family? Why are you
13 objecting to Jordie staying with me? Why can’t we
14 be a family? Why don’t you trust me?”
15 He was upset that I wanted my son back; that
16 I -- I didn’t like the situation. It was getting
17 out of hand.
18 Q. Now, you’ve told the ladies and gentlemen of
19 the jury that Mr. Jackson had given you a bracelet
20 at one point in time and that you had gone shopping
21 with Mr. Jackson on his credit card in Monte Carlo.
22 Were there any other occasions when Mr.
23 Jackson gave you gifts?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What else did he give you?
26 A. He also gave me jewelry.
27 Q. And do you recall approximately when that
28 was? 5640
1 A. I think it was approximately in June.
2 Q. And what kind of jewelry?
3 A. A pair of earrings, a necklace, and a ring.
4 Q. And where were these items when you first
5 saw them?
6 A. The boxes were open on my bed in Santa
8 Q. At your house?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was Mr. Jackson staying at your house at
11 that point in time?
12 A. Not really. Not really. He was there, in
13 and out.
14 Q. In and out. Okay. Any other gifts you ever
15 received from Mr. Jackson?
16 A. Yes, a gift certificate to a store.
17 Q. And the store?
18 A. To a store.
19 Q. Yes. The store?
20 A. Fred Segal.
21 Q. Now, to your knowledge, was there ever an
22 occasion where your son Jordan and the defendant in
23 this case, Michael Jackson, were at your
24 ex-husband’s house, Evan Chandler?
25 A. Yes. Yes.
26 Q. And do you remember on how many occasions?
27 A. I would say one or two occasions.
28 Q. And do you remember the length of the stays 5641