1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
17 REPORTER’S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
19 TUESDAY, APRIL 12, 2005
21 8:30 A.M.
23 (PAGES 5771 THROUGH 5841)
27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 5771
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A.
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067
15 SANGER & SWYSEN
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C
17 Santa Barbara, California 93101
19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ.
20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs, California 90670
1 I N D E X
3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index. Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index.
6 Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index. Mr. Oxman is listed as “O” on index.
9 PLAINTIFF’S WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
11 JACKSON, Jay D. 5775-Z
1 Santa Maria, California
2 Tuesday, April 12, 2005
3 8:30 a.m.
5 (The following proceedings were held in
6 open court in the presence and hearing of the
9 THE COURT: Good morning, everyone.
10 THE JURY: (In unison) Good morning.
11 THE COURT: Ready to proceed? Go ahead.
12 MR. ZONEN: We’ll call our next witness,
13 Major Jay Jackson, to the stand.
14 THE COURT: Come forward and raise your right
15 hand, please. Face the clerk.
17 JAY D. JACKSON
18 Having been sworn, testified as follows:
20 THE WITNESS: I do.
21 THE CLERK: Please be seated.
22 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
23 THE CLERK: State and spell your name for the
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, Jay D. Jackson. Spelled
26 J-a-y. Middle initial D. Jackson, J-a-c-k-s-o-n.
27 THE CLERK: Thank you.
28 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 5774
1 MR. ZONEN: May I proceed, Your Honor?
2 THE COURT: You may.
4 DIRECT EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. ZONEN:
6 Q. Sir, what is your current occupation?
7 A. I am in the -- I’m on active duty with the
8 Army reserve.
9 Q. How long have you been in the Army reserve?
10 BAILIFF CORTEZ: Speak right in here,
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
13 I’ve been in the Army reserve for 23 years,
14 some of that active duty, some of that reserved part
16 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Most recently you’ve been on
17 active duty for what period?
18 A. About five years.
19 Q. All right. Were you in Desert Storm?
20 A. The first one, yes, sir, I was.
21 Q. And what position did you hold at that time?
22 A. I ran a prisoner of war camp processing
23 area. We ran enemy prison of war through the
24 prisoner of war camp.
25 Q. In which country?
26 A. In Saudi Arabia.
27 Q. Your current rank with the Army reserves is
28 what? 5775
1 A. Major.
2 Q. And what are your responsibilities?
3 A. Currently I’m working in a command where we
4 do mobilizations, we mobilize soldiers to go to war.
5 Q. Are you currently married to Janet Ventura
7 A. Yes, sir, I am.
8 Q. She has taken your name after your marriage;
9 is that correct?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. Do you have children together?
12 A. We do. We have one. A little boy.
13 Q. And do you have other children living in
14 your household?
15 A. Yes, sir, we do. Three additional children.
16 Q. And they are who?
17 A. Gavin, Star and Davellin.
18 Q. When did you first meet Janet Arvizo?
19 A. Back in July of 2002.
20 Q. How did you meet her?
21 A. I was working one Saturday, and she came --
22 she knocked on the door, and I -- it’s a secured
23 facility, and I let her in. She had Star with her.
24 Q. All right. What were the children involved
25 in at that time, the boys?
26 A. There’s a Sea Cadet Command right there that
27 is for children between the ages of, say, 11 and 18
28 years old. And she was bringing her children there 5776
1 for that program.
2 Q. And both of them were involved, Star and
4 A. Yes, they were.
5 Q. All right. Then that’s how you met her?
6 A. That is how I met them.
7 Q. And began dating after that?
8 A. We talked. I met her. She said -- I was
9 sitting in the hallway and walked by her, and got
10 into a conversation, and then -- I got her phone
11 number, I think. And then about a month later, we
12 talked on the phone for about a month.
13 And then a month later she was telling me
14 that Gavin and Star were graduating from the Sea
15 Cadet program, a little two-week training or
16 one-week training. And so we decided that our first
17 date we would go down there for that graduation, and
18 we did.
19 Q. And you’ve been married how long now?
20 A. Oh, goodness. May 29th will be one year.
21 Q. I’d like to direct your attention back to
22 February of ‘03, 2003.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. Will you tell us in what neighborhood you
25 were living at that time?
26 A. The mid-Wilshire district, also known as
27 Korea Town.
28 Q. And the street that you were living on was 5777
2 A. St. Andrews Place.
3 Q. Was Janet Arvizo living with you at that
5 A. She was.
6 Q. Was she living with you full time at that
8 A. No, she wasn’t. She had a place over on
9 Soto Street in East L.A.
10 Q. And the boys, where were they living?
11 A. The same place. Both places.
12 Q. All right. Do you remember or do you recall
13 where they were attending school at that time?
14 A. Well, I don’t know the name of the school,
15 but it was in East L.A. And then because there was
16 a lot of problems at that school - they were, you
17 know, being pushed into getting into gangs, and
18 there was some altercations - we thought it was a
19 good idea if we enrolled them in John Burroughs,
20 which is a real good school in the mid-Wilshire
22 Q. And that was closer to your home; is that
24 A. Yes, sir, it was. Very close.
25 Q. And did you do that?
26 A. Sir?
27 Q. Did you do that, enroll them at John
28 Burroughs? 5778
1 A. Yes, sir, we did.
2 Q. That is John Burroughs Middle School?
3 A. That is John Burroughs Middle School.
4 Q. Was your address, then, on St. Andrews Place
5 the address that was used?
6 A. That is correct, yes, sir.
7 Q. Did Janet Arvizo maintain the Soto Street
9 A. She did, sir.
10 Q. For what period of time?
11 A. Through about November of ‘04, I believe.
12 Q. Had you ever gone to Neverland?
13 A. I’ve been to Neverland one time.
14 Q. And when was that; do you recall?
15 A. It was in -- it was before November of ‘02,
16 so it was in the summer, I believe, of ‘02. I was
17 still living in West L.A., and we were invited by
18 Chris Tucker and his girlfriend; that they were
19 having a little-baby birthday party.
20 Q. Were you the only ones invited to Neverland
21 for that occasion?
22 A. Oh, no, sir. There was two busfuls of
24 Q. You met the bus where; do you recall?
25 A. It was -- you know, I think it was the
26 Beverly Hills Hilton or something like that. It was
27 one of the hotels in the local area.
28 Q. Did you spend the day at Neverland? 5779
1 A. Yes, sir, we did.
2 Q. Did you spend the night at Neverland?
3 A. We left in the evening, late in the evening.
4 Q. And then returned back to Los Angeles?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. How many people, approximately, to your
7 recollection, attended that party?
8 A. 40 or 50, maybe.
9 Q. Did you see Michael Jackson at any time
10 during that occasion?
11 A. No, sir, I did not.
12 Q. Had you ever met Michael Jackson?
13 A. No, sir, not until today.
14 Q. At some point in early February of 2003, did
15 you become aware of the fact that a documentary was
16 being shown on television?
17 A. I’m not sure if I knew at that moment, but I
18 know that Janet received a call from either Michael
19 or somebody in his entourage asking him to go to
20 Miami -- asking her to go to Miami, and with the
22 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
23 move to strike.
24 THE COURT: I’ll strike after the word
25 “moment. “
26 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did Janet Arvizo and the
27 children go to Miami?
28 A. Yes, they did. 5780
1 Q. Do you know what prompted that?
2 A. Um --
3 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Foundation and
5 MR. ZONEN: Yes or no; does he know.
6 THE COURT: I sustained the objection. I’m
8 MR. ZONEN: Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t hear.
9 Q. Do you know on what day they left for Miami?
10 A. I just know approximately it was early
12 Q. Had there been any discussion in the
13 household about Michael Jackson prior to going to
15 A. No, sir, not really.
16 Q. Had there been any problems in the household
17 that dealt in some fashion with either Neverland or
18 Michael Jackson prior to Janet Arvizo going to
20 A. No, sir, not at all.
21 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; vague.
22 THE COURT: Overruled. The answer was, “No,
23 sir, not at all.” Next question.
24 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Had there been any discussion
25 about Michael Jackson prior to her going to Miami in
26 your household, say, within a week or two prior to
27 their departure?
28 A. No, sir. 5781
1 Q. And could you tell us approximately what
2 percentage of the week Janet Arvizo was living at
3 your home as opposed to her residence on Soto
5 A. Three or four days a week.
6 Q. Is that during the time that the kids were
7 at school?
8 A. Yes, sir. That’s correct.
9 Q. Did Janet Arvizo have parents living in the
10 Los Angeles area?
11 A. Yes, sir. In the El Monte area.
12 Q. And had you visited their home on occasion?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. And El Monte is where in Los Angeles County?
15 A. I -- I’m not sure exactly. I mean, it’s
16 in -- El Monte is in -- it’s in -- I mean, Los
17 Angeles area. I’m not sure exactly how to --
18 because I’m not from California, I really can’t lay
19 out where everything is from.
20 Q. We do hear an accent in your voice. Where
21 are you from?
22 A. Virginia.
23 Q. Is that where you grew up?
24 A. Yes, sir, I did.
25 Q. Did you know in advance that Janet Arvizo
26 and her children were going to be going to Miami?
27 A. No, sir, I didn’t. I received -- excuse me
28 one second. 5782
1 Q. Go ahead.
2 A. Janet just told me that she was going to
3 my --
4 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
5 move to strike.
6 THE COURT: I’ll strike after “I didn’t.”
7 MR. ZONEN: I’m sorry, I don’t have the
8 ability to read it. I’m not hearing everything
9 you’re saying at the moment.
10 THE COURT: I’m sorry. The question was,
11 “Did you know in advance that Janet Arvizo and her
12 children were going to be going to Miami?” “No,
13 sir, I didn’t.” Then after that I struck his
15 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: When did you first learn that
16 they were going to Miami?
17 A. I believe Janet told me right before they
18 were ready to leave that they were going.
19 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
20 hearsay; move to strike.
21 THE COURT: Overruled.
22 MR. ZONEN: And the answer’s in?
23 THE COURT: The answer’s in.
24 THE WITNESS: Janet -- should I --
25 THE COURT: No.
26 THE WITNESS: No? Thank you.
27 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: We’ll move on to the next
28 question. 5783
1 And did they, in fact, leave that day?
2 A. That day or the next day, yes, sir. Within
3 a day or two, yes.
4 Q. Did you have conversations -- without
5 getting into the content of them, did you have
6 conversations with Janet Arvizo while she was in
8 A. I believe she called me, yes, sir.
9 Q. Did you have conversations with any of the
10 kids while they were in Miami?
11 A. No. No, sir.
12 Q. Without getting into the content, did you
13 know the purpose of the trip to Miami?
14 A. I knew that they were going to be going
15 there to do a press conference.
16 Q. Did you know -- again, without getting into
17 the content, did you know what the purpose of the
18 press conference was?
19 A. I’m not sure that I knew exactly at that
20 time, but I knew very shortly thereafter what was
21 going on with the documentary.
22 Q. Did you understand that it had something to
23 do with the documentary?
24 A. I believe I may have known, but I didn’t
25 know the specifics.
26 Q. All right. Was there, in fact, a
27 documentary about Michael Jackson shown on
28 television that you saw within a few days 5784
2 A. Yes, sir, I did.
3 Q. And how did you know that it was going to be
4 on television?
5 A. I believe I saw something on T.V. that said
6 it was coming on.
7 Q. Did you know in advance that that
8 documentary would feature any of Janet Arvizo’s
10 A. I believe that there was some indication
11 that -- yes, that the children were going to be on
13 Q. Did you watch the documentary in its
15 A. Yes, sir, I did.
16 Q. Did it, in fact, feature Janet Arvizo’s
18 A. It did, yes, sir.
19 Q. At the time you watched that documentary,
20 was Janet Arvizo and her children in Miami? Were
21 they in Miami?
22 A. Yes, sir, they were in Miami.
23 Q. At some point in time were you contacted by
24 reporters from any news agency, presumably reporters
25 from the news agency?
26 A. I wasn’t contacted by them. But I did talk
27 to several -- two reporters, British reporters, at
28 Janet’s Soto Street apartment. 5785
1 Q. Do you remember when that was?
2 A. It was right -- I guess right after -- it
3 was right before the documentary aired in the United
5 Q. All right. And what did they want to do
6 with you?
7 A. They -- well, when I was -- I took Janet and
8 the kids back to that Soto Street apartment. And
9 Davellin was at the apartment, and she said that --
10 either two journalists or two guys had just knocked
11 on the door asking for Janet.
12 I saw them at the end of the hall. I walked
13 down to ask them what they were -- who they were
14 with, and what they wanted.
15 Q. All right. What did they tell you?
16 A. They said that they were with a British
17 tabloid, and that they wanted to do a story on the
18 family as it pertained to Michael Jackson.
19 Q. All right. Did they actually use the word
21 A. I’m not sure if they did. I think I found
22 that out later.
23 Q. That may have been your conclusion?
24 A. It may have been, yes, sir.
25 Q. I can’t imagine a reporter saying they’re
26 with a tabloid.
27 A. Right.
28 Q. Did they say to you what it was exactly that 5786
1 they wanted to talk to you about?
2 A. They didn’t say specifically, no. They just
3 said that they wanted to have a conversation, they
4 wanted to do an interview with the family, and they
5 wanted to take some photographs of the family.
6 Q. And did you understand this to relate to
7 Michael Jackson in some fashion?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Did they tell you that that’s what they
10 wanted to do?
11 A. Yes, sir, they did.
12 Q. Now, I believe you said this was prior to
13 the screening of the documentary “Living With” --
14 A. Yes, sir, it was.
15 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; misstates the
17 THE COURT: Sustained.
18 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Was this prior to the
19 screening of the documentary --
20 A. Yes, sir, it was.
21 Q. -- that you saw?
22 The documentary we’re talking about, can you
23 tell us the name of it, if you recall?
24 A. “Living with Michael Jackson.”
25 Q. Was it a documentary that featured a man by
26 the name of Martin Bashir?
27 A. Yes, sir, it did.
28 Q. At the time you talked to these two 5787
1 reporters, did you have a sense of what was going on
2 at that point?
3 A. No, sir, I did not.
4 Q. Did you either request payment for an
5 interview or did they offer you payment for an
7 A. Well, I said -- again, we have to put it in
8 context. They --
9 MR. MESEREAU: Objection.
10 MR. ZONEN: Let me withdraw the question.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay.
12 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Tell us what the discussion
13 was with regards to payment.
14 A. The discussion was -- I asked them what was
15 it that they were going -- how they were going to
16 compensate the family --
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. -- for doing this. And he said -- he said,
19 “We can probably give them four to five hundred
21 Q. What did you say?
22 A. I said, “I don’t think that’s going to
24 Q. What did you understand -- what did you
25 think that they wanted to ask this family?
26 A. I don’t think I really knew. I believe that
27 they were looking for something negative on Michael
28 Jackson as it related to the children. 5788
1 Q. Did you know anything negative about Michael
2 Jackson at that time?
3 A. No, sir, we did not. I did not.
4 Q. Had Janet Arvizo or her children at any time
5 expressed any kind of negative comment to you about
6 Michael Jackson up to that point?
7 A. None.
8 Q. Were you aware as to whether or not the
9 children had visited Neverland prior to that date?
10 A. I knew they had a relationship with Michael
12 Q. Did you have any reason to believe that
13 relationship was anything but positive?
14 A. That’s all I believed it was.
15 Q. Did you tell those two reporters that?
16 A. I did.
17 Q. All right. And was that before or after or
18 during the conversation about payment?
19 A. I’m not real clear. It was a back-and-forth
20 about that. But I said, you know, “If you’re
21 looking for dirt,” you know, “This” -- “I don’t
22 believe there’s anything negative to say.” And they
23 continued to ask for it. And they said, “Let me get
24 back with my boss and we’ll get back to you
26 And I don’t know if I gave him my phone
27 number, or whether he got it, or -- I probably gave
28 it to him. Although some reporters tend to be able 5789
1 to find your phone number.
2 Q. All right. Did you ask for more money than
3 three or four hundred dollars?
4 A. No, I just said that wasn’t going to be
6 Q. And what did you mean by that?
7 A. Well, I think I was -- you know, I was
8 intrigued by it. I have never had anybody come up
9 asking to pay for any kind of story of any kind.
10 And maybe I was -- I was the one that initially
11 asked, you know, “Is there any compensation for the
12 family?” But I think that I just thought that was
13 the standard in the industry. I meant no malice by
15 Q. Did they tell you at any time during this
16 initial interview that it had something to do with
17 the documentary that featured in England?
18 A. That featured what, sir?
19 Q. That was shown in England, that was aired on
20 television in England.
21 A. They mentioned something about a documentary
22 in England, but they really were vague.
23 Q. And did you have any other independent
24 information about it at that time?
25 A. I did not.
26 Q. Did you have a follow-up conversation with
28 A. I did. 5790
1 Q. And when was the follow-up conversation?
2 A. I believe it was the next day, or the day
3 after that.
4 Q. Was this before or after Janet Arvizo and
5 her children went to Miami?
6 A. They had not left yet.
7 Q. Okay. Had you told Janet Arvizo about your
8 initial conversation with these two reporters?
9 A. I mean, while Janet and the family were in
10 the apartment. But no, I did not talk to them
11 specifically about any conversation I was having
12 with the British reporters.
13 Q. All right. Do you know the name of the
14 reporter or reporters who you talked to on this
15 first occasion?
16 A. David Gardner, Garner or Gardner, and Alec
18 Q. And then you said there was a follow-up
19 conversation over the telephone?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. Perhaps a day or two later?
22 A. Perhaps -- yes, it was a day or two later.
23 Q. Do you recall with which person this
24 conversation took place?
25 A. I’m sorry, sir?
26 Q. With which person did you have this --
27 A. My conversations were with David Gardner.
28 Q. Did Mr. Gardner talk more about wanting to 5791
1 have an interview with the family?
2 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
3 MR. ZONEN: I’ll withdraw the question.
4 Q. What did Mr. Gardner say?
5 A. He continued to say he wanted to have an
6 interview with the family and that he was going to
7 offer additional money; that his boss, I guess, had
8 allowed something like $15,000, and that he wanted
9 to bring them to a hotel or somewhere and do a full
10 spread with them. And I declined that.
11 Q. You declined $15,000?
12 A. I did.
13 Q. To say nice things about Michael Jackson?
14 A. Well, you know, at that time I -- I
15 really -- wasn’t really in a position to make that
16 decision. I knew Janet wouldn’t do that.
17 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; move to strike.
18 MR. ZONEN: Well --
19 MR. MESEREAU: Nonresponsive.
20 THE COURT: That’s stricken. After the word
21 “decision,” that’s stricken, the last sentence.
22 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Why did you say no?
23 A. The more I thought about it, the less I
24 liked the idea.
25 Q. Why? What was it that didn’t appeal to you?
26 $15,000 seems like a lot of money.
27 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Admonish the
28 prosecutor not to make gratuitous remarks. 5792
1 THE COURT: Don’t make gratuitous remarks.
3 MR. ZONEN: I’m admonished.
4 THE COURT: And that goes for all of you.
6 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: What about $15,000 didn’t you
7 want to have?
8 A. Sir, I don’t think -- you know, at that time
9 I remember going through the thought process of, you
10 know, this would be -- we could use this money.
11 But, you know, the more I thought about it, these
12 children were going to be on television, and it
13 wasn’t -- it just wasn’t going to be an appropriate
14 thing to do to this family.
15 Q. All right. Now, in the course of this
16 conversation, this was also prior to your viewing
17 “Living with Michael Jackson”?
18 A. That is correct, sir.
19 Q. Was it prior to your knowing about “Living
20 with Michael Jackson”?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. All right. Did you ever communicate with
23 Janet Arvizo this particular offer?
24 A. I did not.
25 Q. All right. Did you ever make any kind of a
26 counteroffer for more money?
27 A. No, I did not.
28 Q. Were there any other discussions with this 5793
1 reporter after this phone call?
2 A. Yes, he -- you know, after they left for
3 Miami, I received a phone call from him. And I
4 said -- you know, he continued to want to have a
5 conversation about doing an interview. And I told
6 him, “Sir, I can’t” -- you know, “The family is not
7 even in the area now. There’s nothing that I can
9 He continued to call. He called again.
10 Several months later, he says, “Well, I’d just like
11 to have a cup of coffee with you.” I said, “I’m not
12 interested in that.”
13 And then when the raid on Neverland
14 occurred, again he called me back, and in some ways
15 made a threat. He said, you know, “I haven’t given
16 your information to any other organizations.” And I
17 said, “Sir, this is a military phone line. Please
18 do not call here again.” That was the last
19 consideration I had with him.
20 Q. Have you had a conversation with any other
21 reporters attempting to get a story from you?
22 A. I have not had any detailed conversations.
23 I have had a number of reporters contact me. How
24 they get my number I do not know. But they called
25 my office primarily. And they have shown up at
26 various -- at various locations like my apartment.
27 Q. Have you accepted money from anybody?
28 A. Zero. We have not accepted a penny. 5794
1 Q. For any kind of a story?
2 A. For anything.
3 Q. Have you given a story to anybody?
4 A. No, sir, I have not.
5 Q. Have you promised a story to anybody?
6 A. No, sir.
7 Q. Have you made arrangements to accept money
8 in the future in exchange for a story?
9 A. No, sir.
10 Q. Do you have any intention of giving a story
11 in the future?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. Do you have any intention of accepting money
14 for a story in the future?
15 A. No, sir.
16 Q. Now, when they left for Miami, “they” being
17 Janet Arvizo and here children, when did you expect
18 them to return?
19 A. I didn’t have a specific date, you know.
20 They were -- they knew Michael, and if that’s what
21 they were going to do, I wasn’t going to get
22 involved with all of that. But I didn’t anticipate
23 them being gone more than three or four days.
24 Q. When you saw “Living with Michael Jackson,”
25 did any part of that documentary disturb you?
26 A. Yes, absolutely. The --
27 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Relevance; move
28 to strike; and leading. 5795
1 THE COURT: Leading is overruled. Relevancy
2 is sustained.
3 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: All right. Where did they
4 go? Did they return to Los Angeles after their trip
5 to Miami?
6 A. Yes, sir. They came back from Miami and I
7 believe went straight to Neverland.
8 Q. All right. So they didn’t come to Los
10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. Did --
12 A. Not that I’m aware of.
13 Q. Were you contacted by Janet Arvizo?
14 A. I was contacted by her on a couple of
16 Q. Now, during the course of the conversations
17 that you had from her, can you tell us approximately
18 how many phone calls you had from her while she was
19 at Neverland?
20 A. During this period of time?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. I can’t tell you the specific number. But
23 it was -- it was several phone calls that I received
24 from her over a two- or three- or four-day period.
25 Q. Okay. How did she sound to you?
26 A. She was distressed.
27 Q. Had she been distressed prior to going to
28 Miami? 5796
1 A. No, not at all.
2 Q. Had there been any noticeable problems in
3 your family prior to her going to Miami?
4 A. No, sir.
5 Q. Were the kids healthy?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Were the kids in school?
8 A. The kids were in school.
9 Q. In the course of her conversations with you
10 over the telephone, did she tell you why she was
12 A. She did not.
13 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
14 MR. ZONEN: That would be state of mind.
15 MR. MESEREAU: And foundation.
16 THE COURT: I think I’ll allow the “yes” or
17 “no” answer to whether or not she told him. That
18 doesn’t get to the real issue.
19 MR. ZONEN: Yes.
20 Q. Was that a yes or no?
21 A. Could you repeat the question, please?
22 Q. Did she tell you -- well, maybe the court
23 reporter should repeat the question.
24 (Record read.)
25 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Yes or no.
26 A. Yes. Yes.
27 Q. What did she tell you was the reason for her
28 distress? 5797
1 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Hearsay;
2 relevance; foundation; relevance.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: During the period of time
5 that you had conversations with her, did she appear
6 to you to be any less stressed as time went on?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. At some point in time, did she return to Los
10 A. Yes, sir, she did.
11 Q. With her children?
12 A. Yes, sir, with her children.
13 Q. Did they go to your home or some other
15 A. They went to El Monte. They went to her
16 mother’s house.
17 Q. And did you visit them soon thereafter?
18 A. I picked them up. Yes, sir, I did.
19 Q. How long did they stay in the Los Angeles
21 A. Several days, probably three or four days.
22 You’re talking about at my apartment or at her
24 Q. At --
25 A. Total?
26 Q. At her mother’s and at your apartment.
27 A. I would say three to four days, but that’s
28 speculation. 5798
1 Q. During that period of time, were you getting
2 any telephone calls at your apartment?
3 A. She -- Janet was talking to me -- oh, okay.
4 What happened was that I went and picked her up from
5 El Monte, brought her back to the house, and then I
6 started receiving phone calls from a gentleman by
7 the name of Frank.
8 Q. All right. Did Frank have a last name?
9 A. Tyson, I believe. But at the time I think I
10 only knew “Frank.” I don’t think I knew his last
12 Q. How many conversations did you have with
13 Frank Tyson?
14 A. During that time, I didn’t have many
15 conversations with Frank. I might have picked up
16 the phone and passed it to Janet. I believe that
17 there was one -- one phone call maybe that I
18 actually talked to him in any detail.
19 Q. And the phone -- excuse me, I’m sorry.
20 In that detailed conversation that you had,
21 do you remember the content of that conversation?
22 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
23 MR. ZONEN: It would be a statement in
24 furtherance, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: All right. I’ll admit it for the
26 limited purposes that we discussed earlier on the
27 conspiracy charges, the statement in furtherance of
28 the conspiracy. 5799
1 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: The question was, do you
2 recall the content of that conversation?
3 A. The content of the conversation was, is that
4 Frank wanted to know what kind of car I drove.
5 Q. All right.
6 A. And I asked him why he wanted to know what
7 kind of car I drove. And he said his girlfriend in
8 New York was doing some kind of survey on what
9 people drove in Los Angeles.
10 I thought it was quite strange. But at this
11 point I didn’t really understand what was happening,
12 so I gave him that information.
13 Q. All right. And you told him what kind of a
14 car you drove; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, sir, I did.
16 Q. Did you ultimately have an opportunity to
17 view surveillance tapes?
18 A. Yes, sir, I did.
19 Q. And were they surveillance tapes of you?
20 A. Yes, sir, they were.
21 Q. And were they surveillance tapes of you in
22 the car that you described?
23 A. Yes, sir, they were.
24 Q. Can you tell us how many phone calls were
25 coming from Frank during the time that Janet Arvizo
26 was staying at your house after her first return
27 from Neverland?
28 A. She was receiving phone calls continuously. 5800
1 Q. What does that mean, “continuously”?
2 A. Every 15 to 20 to 30 minutes.
3 Q. Throughout the day?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Were they always from Frank?
6 A. They seemed to be from Frank.
7 Q. Were you able to hear any portion of the
9 A. Janet was --
10 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
11 THE WITNESS: -- somewhat emotional.
12 THE COURT: Nonresponsive. Sustained.
13 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Were you able to hear any
14 portion of the conversation? Yes or no.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right. Do you know if those
17 conversations went on for long periods of time?
18 A. They did.
19 Q. Without getting into the content of her end
20 of the conversation, tell us what her mood was like,
21 what her manner or her demeanor was like.
22 A. She was emotional. She was crying. And she
23 was sitting in the closet having these conversations
24 with Frank and -- I mean, I can tell you what I
25 heard, but --
26 Q. Let’s not go into that at the moment. You
27 said she was sitting in the closet?
28 A. She was -- it’s a long closet in the bedroom 5801
1 back in the back of the room. And she would sit in
2 the closet. She was -- she would be -- she was very
4 Q. All right.
5 A. She was crying.
6 Q. Were you able to hear her end of the
8 A. I only heard bits and pieces, but, yes, sir.
9 Q. What could you hear her saying?
10 A. She at that --
11 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
12 MR. ZONEN: As to her state of mind.
13 MR. MESEREAU: Same objection.
14 THE COURT: Let’s see, she’s -- all right.
15 I’ll overrule the objection and allow her statement
16 in for her state of mind.
17 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: What did you hear, her
19 A. I heard her comments that she was very
20 disturbed about two gentlemen’s treatment of her,
21 one being a gentleman named Ronald and another being
22 a gentleman by the name of Dieter.
23 Q. Did she, in fact, return back to Neverland?
24 A. She did, sir.
25 Q. Do you recall if a person -- do you know a
26 person named Brad Miller?
27 A. Yes, sir, I met him one time.
28 Q. Can you tell us who Brad will Miller is? 5802
1 A. As far as I understood, Brad Miller’s a
2 security detail for Michael Jackson.
3 Q. When and where did you meet Brad Miller?
4 A. Brad Miller showed up at the house one
5 evening during this period of time when Janet and
6 the children were there. And I asked Janet who he
7 was, and she said he was a security detail for
8 Michael Jackson. He came in and did an audiotaped
9 interview of the family.
10 Q. Do you have a sense of when that was? If
11 you don’t know the date, say so.
12 A. Yeah, I don’t know the date.
13 Q. Do you know how many days Janet Arvizo and
14 her children were back in Los Angeles by the time
15 Brad Miller came by?
16 A. Probably two or three days.
17 Q. Which residence was it that he came to?
18 A. My residence on St. Andrews Place.
19 Q. Did you have a conversation with Brad Miller
20 prior to his arrival at the apartment?
21 A. No, sir, I did not.
22 Q. Did you know in advance that he was going to
23 be coming to the apartment?
24 A. No, sir, I did not.
25 Q. Did you know in advance the purpose of his
26 visit to the apartment?
27 A. No, sir, I did not.
28 Q. When he came to the apartment, did you talk 5803
1 with him?
2 A. I was cordial, offered him a drink. But no,
3 sir, not other than that.
4 Q. Did he explain to you his presence in the
6 A. No, I don’t think so.
7 Q. Tell us what happened with Brad Miller when
8 he was at the apartment.
9 A. He showed up at the apartment. Janet seemed
10 to be anticipating his arrival. I asked what he was
11 coming for. She said -- I guess they were going to
12 do an interview of some type, an audio interview.
13 I’m not even sure if that was said.
14 But he showed up and there was a phone call.
15 There was a phone call between him and, I guess
16 Frank, because he passed the phone to Janet, and
17 Janet talked to him, to Frank. And then they came
18 in, and they sat down around the table. It’s a
19 coffee table in the living room. And they all
20 circled around it, and they had an interview.
21 Q. Was that interview tape-recorded, to your
23 A. Yes, sir, it was.
24 Q. Did you see the tape-recording?
25 A. Yes, sir.
26 Q. Who did you believe Brad Miller worked for?
27 A. Michael Jackson.
28 Q. Did you have a sense of the purpose of that 5804
2 A. I did not.
3 Q. Did you listen to any part of the interview?
4 A. I was up and down throughout the entire
5 time, so I really did not. I think -- I assume it
6 was in relation to the “Living with Michael
7 Jackson,” and that it was just to buffet his story
8 that nothing had happened.
9 Q. All right. Did you at any time ask him any
10 questions about what was going on?
11 A. No, sir, I did not.
12 Q. Did you ask him any questions about the two
13 men that Janet had expressed concern about?
14 A. No, sir, I did not.
15 Q. Were you expecting that Janet Arvizo and the
16 children would be returning to Neverland?
17 A. You know what? At this point I’m not even
18 sure I knew that. You know what? Janet had this
19 relationship with Michael --
20 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; nonresponsive.
21 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: The answer was you didn’t
23 A. No, sir, I did not know.
24 THE COURT: I’ll strike the last sentence.
25 Go ahead.
26 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: At the time that you were in
27 the apartment during this interview, did you not
28 know whether they would be returning? 5805
1 A. No, sir, I did not.
2 Q. How long did that interview go for?
3 A. Probably two hours, two hours and 15
4 minutes, something like that.
5 Q. Do you have a recollection of any part of
6 that interview, the content of that interview at
8 A. Not really, sir, I don’t.
9 Q. Did Janet Arvizo and her children return to
10 Neverland after that interview?
11 A. Yes, sir, they did. I believe it was like
12 the next day.
13 Q. Your apartment on St. Andrews Place was how
15 A. It’s about 1100 square foot, one bedroom.
16 Q. One bedroom and a living room?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. And at times all of you were staying there
19 at that apartment?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. When they went back to Neverland, did you
22 know in advance that they were going?
23 A. I mean, at the last minute, I believe I knew
24 that they were going.
25 Q. Do you know how they got to Neverland?
26 A. Sure. Someone came and picked them up.
27 Q. You said, “At the last minute.” What does
28 that mean? 5806
1 A. It means that I -- you know, she wasn’t
2 telling me specifically what was happening. And I
3 wasn’t asking. So I think she might have told me
4 that they were leaving, but I really -- I’m not
5 clear that they were leaving.
6 Q. All right. When they went back to
7 Neverland, do you know if they went back during the
8 day or in the evening?
9 A. Seems to me that they went in the afternoon.
10 Q. And when was the next time you saw Janet
11 Arvizo or her children?
12 A. That same night Janet came back. Late at
14 Q. Without her children?
15 A. Without her children.
16 Q. All right. What was her mood or her affect
17 at that time?
18 A. She was very emotional.
19 Q. Did you ask her where the children were?
20 A. I assumed that they were still at the ranch.
21 Q. Did you talk about what had happened?
22 A. She didn’t want to talk about it.
23 Q. Do you know what day it was that she
24 returned? Do you have a sense of it?
25 A. Early February, but I really don’t have a
27 Q. Do you know how much time had gone by since
28 the Miami trip at this point that she came back? 5807
1 A. Maybe a week.
2 Q. Now, when she came back, how long was it
3 before you saw the kids next?
4 A. At that point, I didn’t see them for
5 probably three weeks. I don’t know. It was a long
7 Q. Was there a meeting at your house involving
8 the department of --
9 A. I stand corrected, sir. Can I go back on
10 the last statement?
11 Q. Yes. Go ahead.
12 A. They -- they apparently did a CPS -- a
13 Department of Child & Family Services interview
14 after Janet left to go do the video that night. The
15 next morning they all showed back up, and I did see
16 the children but it was briefly.
17 Q. Now, you mentioned a couple of things we’re
18 going to talk about in order.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. First is the video.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. At some point in time, did you become aware
23 of the fact that Janet was -- Janet Arvizo was going
24 to be doing a video?
25 A. I did.
26 Q. When did you learn about that?
27 A. Well, when Janet came back by herself, she
28 was very emotional. And then the next day Frank 5808
1 started calling again, just continuously.
2 Q. Let me stop you for one second. The same
3 Frank who was calling the first time?
4 A. Yes, sir, the same Frank.
5 Q. The person you mentioned as Frank Tyson?
6 A. Frank Tyson.
7 Q. And you said before he was calling
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. Was he calling more continuously, less
11 continuously, or about --
12 A. I would say now it’s more continuously.
13 Q. And what does that mean in terms of actually
14 how many phone calls he was making?
15 A. You know, I can’t tell you a number of phone
16 calls, but I can say he was calling every 15 or 20
17 minutes. I mean, I even told him -- I would tell
18 him certain times, “She’s not available. Call back
19 later today,” or, “I’ll have her call you.” Fifteen
20 minutes later he calls again.
21 Q. Did he tell you who he was in any of these
22 phone calls?
23 A. I don’t think he did specifically. I knew
24 he worked with Michael Jackson.
25 Q. Did he tell you why he was calling?
26 A. Well, he always wanted to speak --
27 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
28 MR. ZONEN: It would be in furtherance of. 5809
1 THE COURT: First he has to answer the
2 question. It was nonresponsive.
3 I’ll have the court reporter read back
4 the question.
5 MR. ZONEN: The question actually is “yes”
6 or “no.”
7 (Record read.)
8 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: That would be “yes” or “no.”
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What did he say?
11 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
12 MR. ZONEN: Statement in furtherance of.
13 THE COURT: I’m going to admit the statement
14 with the same limited purpose for the last one.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
16 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: What did he say?
17 A. He at one point asked me, “How can I get
18 Janet to come back up to the ranch?”
19 And another time he asked me, he said, “We
20 need her to sign a contract to do this video.” And
21 he said, “We really have got to hurry on this,
22 because it’s going to air tomorrow. It’s got to be
23 in to be finalized by tomorrow.
24 So he was really pushing that issue, and so
25 I had a conversation with him about that.
26 Q. Had you -- prior to that conversation, had
27 you had a conversation with Janet Arvizo about a
28 video? 5810
1 A. No, I had overheard her talking to Frank on
2 the phone about it. I mean, at one point she was
3 asking them to bring her children home.
4 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
5 MR. ZONEN: Reflects her state of mind.
6 THE COURT: Just a moment.
7 The question was, “Had you -- prior to that
8 conversation, had you had a conversation with Janet
9 Arvizo about the video?” Answer, “No.” He then
10 proceeded to not answer, so I’ll strike that after,
11 “No.” You may ask another question.
12 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: But you had some knowledge
13 about what this video was about?
14 A. Yes, sir, I believe I did.
15 Q. And did that knowledge -- from what source
16 was that knowledge?
17 A. I believe mostly from Frank.
18 Q. And did Janet Arvizo speak with you about
19 that video at all?
20 A. No, sir.
21 Q. Did you overhear any conversation between
22 Janet Arvizo and presumably Frank on the telephone?
23 A. Yes, sir, I did.
24 Q. And did you overhear a conversation that
25 specifically addressed the video?
26 A. Yes, sir. She said she didn’t want to do
28 Q. I’m sorry, she what? 5811
1 A. She said she did not want to do it.
2 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike;
3 nonresponsive; and hearsay.
4 THE COURT: Stricken after, “Yes, sir.”
5 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: All right. When you had a
6 conversation with Frank about this video, did you
7 ask him any questions about it?
8 A. Yes. I said -- he said he wanted to do --
9 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; nonresponsive.
10 THE COURT: Sustained.
11 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Some of these questions
12 really call for a “yes” or “no.”
13 A. Okay, sir.
14 Q. And then we can get into content thereafter.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. I believe the question was, did you have a
17 conversation with Frank about this video?
18 A. Yes, sir, I did.
19 Q. All right. Did Frank tell you what the
20 video was about?
21 A. Yeah, I believe he did, sir.
22 Q. What did he tell you?
23 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
24 MR. ZONEN: Statement in furtherance of.
25 THE COURT: All right. I’ll admit this for
26 the limited purposes of the conspiracy.
27 You may answer.
28 THE WITNESS: I’m not clear exactly. I know 5812
1 Frank said some things to me about the fact that we
2 needed to have this -- they needed to do this prior
3 to it going to the editor or something, to get it
4 out there, and it was a rush to get it done. And
5 that’s really what I would say.
6 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did he tell you or did you
7 understand that this video would go on television?
8 A. I did, yes, sir.
9 Q. Did you talk to him about this contract that
10 he wanted Janet Arvizo to sign?
11 A. Yes, sir, I did.
12 Q. What did you say to him?
13 A. “What is this contract?”
14 Q. I’m sorry?
15 A. I said, “What is this contract? What is in
16 this contract?”
17 Q. And what did he say?
18 A. He --
19 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
20 MR. ZONEN: Same response.
21 THE COURT: You know, the last time you told
22 me that, the response wasn’t what you represented,
23 so --
24 MR. ZONEN: Actually, I would refer the
25 Court to Overt Acts 11, 12 and 13, and I believe it
26 does refer to those overt acts.
27 THE COURT: Depends on what he says in his
28 answer, doesn’t it? That’s the problem. Not your 5813
1 question, Counsel.
2 MR. ZONEN: Let me withdraw that last
4 THE COURT: No, let’s have a discussion for a
6 MR. ZONEN: Okay.
7 THE COURT: I just want to give you an
8 example here.
9 “Did Frank tell you what the video was
11 “Yes, I believe he did.
12 “What did he tell you?
13 “Objection; hearsay.
14 “Statement in furtherance of conspiracy.
15 “The Court: All right. I’ll admit it for a
16 limited purpose.
17 “A. I’m not clear exactly.”
18 And then he went on to say something else.
19 If you’re going to offer a statement in
20 furtherance of the conspiracy, then you need to know
21 what statement he’s going to make when you ask the
22 question. Do you understand what I’m saying?
23 MR. ZONEN: Yes.
24 THE COURT: I’m not going to agree in advance
25 to that kind of response.
26 MR. ZONEN: I think the best thing we need
27 to do is to withdraw the last question and proceed
28 to another question. 5814
1 THE COURT: All right.
2 MR. ZONEN: I will do that.
3 Q. Did you have a conversation -- did you ask
4 for a copy of the contract?
5 A. I did, yes, sir.
6 Q. All right. Did he send you a copy of the
8 A. No, sir, he did not.
9 Q. Did he agree to send you a copy of the
11 A. No, he did not.
12 Q. Did you have a conversation with Frank about
13 payment for this video?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. What did you say to him?
16 A. Well, after I asked him to send the contract
17 to me by e-mail, and he kind of changed the subject,
18 I asked him, “What are you offering this family to
19 do this?” I had seen on T.V. that they were making
20 money on this -- this video, and I felt that they
21 were taking advantage of this family. So I said,
22 “What are you offering them?” He said, “Well, we’re
23 offering them protection.”
24 And that struck --
25 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Objection;
27 MR. ZONEN: And I believe that statement --
28 MR. MESEREAU: And hearsay. 5815
1 THE COURT: That’s overruled.
2 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: He said something to you
3 about protection?
4 A. Yes, sir, he did.
5 Q. What did he tell you about offering the
6 family protection?
7 A. He said he was offering the family
8 protection. And I said, “Frank, the family doesn’t
9 need any protection. Who are you protecting them
11 Q. Did he answer that question?
12 A. He did not. He moved on to the next point.
13 Q. At any point in time during this
14 conversation, did he tell you who the family needed
15 protection from?
16 A. No, sir, he did not.
17 Q. Did he tell you what kind of danger the
18 family was in?
19 A. No, sir, he did not.
20 Q. Did he tell you who were posing threats to
21 the family?
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. And did you ask him those questions?
24 A. I did.
25 Q. All right. Then you said he moved to the
26 next subject?
27 A. Yes, sir.
28 Q. Now, again, you had asked him for 5816
1 compensation for the family?
2 A. Well, I -- yes, I did. And he said he was
3 going to give them a tutor. Well, we found out they
4 didn’t ever get any kind of schooling.
5 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
6 hearsay; move to strike.
7 THE COURT: After “Yes, sir, I did,” I’ll
8 strike the rest of the answer.
9 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did Frank offer you or Janet
10 Arvizo or her children anything in exchange for this
12 A. He said he was going to offer a college
13 education, and a house. Well, they didn’t need a
14 house. And they’re in eighth grade. They didn’t
15 need a college education.
16 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; move to strike.
17 THE COURT: The last sentence is stricken.
18 Let me --
19 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: What did you say to Frank in
20 response to that offer?
21 A. I said, “That’s fine, Frank. What are you
22 offering them monetarily?” I was very suspicious of
23 him at this point.
24 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
25 move to strike.
26 THE COURT: That’s -- that last remark is
27 stricken. And the last answer, I’m striking the
28 last three sentences, not the last one sentence. 5817
1 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: All right. He had made you
2 an offer of a house?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. All right. And you said no?
5 A. Basically said no.
6 Q. Okay. Did you ask him for any monetary
7 payment in exchange for that video?
8 A. I asked him what he was offering financially
9 or monetarily.
10 Q. And did he answer to that specific question?
11 A. No, sir, he did not.
12 Q. Did he tell you whether or not they were
13 going to be paid?
14 A. No, he actually said, “Are you trying to
15 blackmail us?”
16 Q. Had you made any demands from him?
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. Were you personally familiar with any
19 information that could be used for blackmail?
20 A. No, sir.
21 Q. What did you tell him when he said that?
22 A. “Why are you saying that? That makes no
23 sense. It has nothing to do with what we’re talking
24 about here.”
25 Q. Did you tell him that you believed they were
26 going to be profiting from this?
27 A. I did. I said, “You’re going” -- you know,
28 “It’s being blasted all over the T.V. that they’re 5818
1 going to be doing this Take Two video, a response to
2 the Martin Bashir ‘Living with Michael Jackson.’
3 And they’re advertising that the family’s going to
4 be on there, and you want her to sign this contract,
5 but you won’t show me the contract. And you” -- he
6 wanted me to have her --
7 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
8 move to strike.
9 THE COURT: Okay. After “there,” where he
10 started, “You want me to sign the contract,” I’ll
11 strike that. That’s the last sentence.
12 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did he ever send you a copy
13 of the contract?
14 A. No, sir, he did not.
15 Q. Did he ever read you a copy of the contract?
16 A. No, sir, he did not.
17 Q. Did you ever have a discussion with Janet
18 Arvizo about the video?
19 A. No, sir, I did not.
20 Q. At some point in time, do you know if she
21 actually did the video with or without her children?
22 A. Yes, sir, I believe she did.
23 Q. And was that after this discussion with
25 A. Yes, sir.
26 Q. Do you know how long after this discussion
27 with Frank?
28 A. He continued to call, and at some point 5819
1 Janet accepted it or moved --
2 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
3 move to strike.
4 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: The question was how long
5 after, if you know?
6 A. Within a day.
7 Q. Did the phone calls from Frank continue
8 during that --
9 THE COURT: The ruling on that is I will
10 strike the answer as requested. Go ahead.
11 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Okay. During that period of
12 time, that day that followed your conversation with
13 Frank, did he continue to call the apartment?
14 A. Yes, he did.
15 Q. And the calls we’re talking about were to
16 your apartment on St. Andrews?
17 A. That’s correct.
18 Q. Was there anybody else calling other than
20 A. Not that I’m aware of.
21 Q. Do you know where the children were during
22 this time?
23 A. I believe they were at Neverland.
24 Q. Now, you had mentioned that you did see them
25 during the course of an interview with the
26 Department of Child & Family Services; is that
28 A. That is correct. 5820
1 Q. All right. Can you tell us where that
2 interview took place?
3 A. It took place in my apartment.
4 Q. Were you there at any time during that
6 A. No, sir, I wasn’t.
7 Q. Did you greet any of the people as they
9 A. No, sir.
10 Q. Were you there earlier at the time that
11 Janet Arvizo and the children arrived?
12 A. About the time I was getting up to go to
13 work, they arrived at the apartment. I was there a
14 short period of time and went on to work.
15 Q. Do you know approximately what time that was
16 that they arrived?
17 A. Well, I get up probably about six o’clock in
18 the morning, so that’s my guess.
19 Q. So they were just arriving at six o’clock?
20 A. That -- it might have been a little earlier,
21 but I’m not positive on that. Depends on what I had
22 to do at work that day.
23 Q. Now, was Janet Arvizo arriving with them or
24 had she already been at your apartment?
25 A. No, she was arriving with them.
26 Q. Do you know when it was that she had left
27 your apartment prior --
28 A. The night before. 5821
1 Q. The night before?
2 A. Late at night. I don’t know. Around eleven
3 o’clock, twelve o’clock.
4 Q. Do you know if she drove herself or if
5 someone came to get her?
6 A. Someone came and got her.
7 Q. Do you know who that was?
8 A. I don’t. I’m not sure. I think I went
9 outside -- I know I went outside to help her get in
10 the car, but I don’t know who the driver was at this
11 time. I can’t put my finger on who it was.
12 Q. Were you there at the time that any of the
13 people from the Department of Child & Family
14 Services arrived?
15 A. No, sir.
16 Q. Were you gone that entire day?
17 A. I was gone the entire day.
18 Q. When you got back, who was present at your
20 A. No one.
21 Q. Not even Janet Arvizo?
22 A. Janet, I believe, may have been there.
23 Q. Did Janet Arvizo remain that night?
24 A. I believe she stayed that night, and then
25 either -- yeah, I believe she left the next morning.
26 Q. Were the kids gone already?
27 A. They were already gone.
28 Q. By the time you got home that day? 5822
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. That night, what was her mood like?
3 A. I don’t really remember.
4 Q. Did Janet Arvizo say anything to you about
6 A. Yes, sir, she did.
7 Q. What did she say?
8 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
9 THE COURT: Sustained.
10 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did you know if there was a
11 trip to Brazil in the planning?
12 A. Yes, sir, I did.
13 Q. Was Janet Arvizo enthusiastic about going to
15 A. No, sir.
16 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
17 MR. ZONEN: State of mind.
18 THE COURT: Calls for a conclusion.
20 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did she say to you that she
21 was enthusiastic about going to Brazil?
22 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 MR. MESEREAU: And leading.
25 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: How long were they gone after
26 they left, after this meeting with the Department of
27 Child & Family Services?
28 A. About three weeks. 5823
1 Q. A long period of time?
2 A. Yes, sir, a long period of time.
3 Q. Did you know in advance they were going to
4 be gone that long?
5 A. No, sir, I did not.
6 Q. Did you have conversations with Janet during
7 that period of time?
8 A. Yes, sir, I did.
9 Q. Over the telephone?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. What was her mood like over the telephone?
12 A. Distressed. Disturbed.
13 Q. When was the next time that you saw her?
14 A. The next time that I saw her was at a nail
16 Q. All right. Explain that to us.
17 A. Well, over that period of time Janet had
18 been calling, and she was hanging up on me, and very
19 short conversations, and very disturbed.
20 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
21 move to strike.
22 THE COURT: It’s responsive, but it calls for
23 a narrative, so I’ll sustain the objection.
24 MR. ZONEN: Okay.
25 Q. During the course of your conversations,
26 would you describe the nature of the conversations
27 you had with her? Without getting into the content
28 of them, just the nature of them. 5824
1 A. The nature of the conversations was, is --
2 Q. Go ahead.
3 A. I can tell you how she was -- appeared, how
4 she felt. She was --
5 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; nonresponsive.
6 THE WITNESS: I’m not sure I understand the
8 MR. ZONEN: Let me withdraw the question.
9 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
10 MR. ZONEN: Because I think the question
11 might be difficult to answer.
12 Q. Did she sound concerned over the telephone?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
15 THE COURT: Overruled. Next question.
16 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Were they long conversations?
17 A. Not normally, no.
18 Q. Did she express concerns to you in the
19 course of these conversations?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading and asked
22 and answered.
23 MR. ZONEN: Overruled. Next question.
24 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: What did she say to you that
25 she was concerned about?
26 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
27 MR. ZONEN: Her state of mind.
28 THE COURT: I’ll admit it for that purpose. 5825
1 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: What did she say to you that
2 she was concerned about?
3 A. Well, she said that she was not being able
4 to see her children; that they were following her
5 around wherever she went off Neverland; that she
6 was -- either had a chaperone or that somebody was
7 following her.
8 At one time when she was in a hotel --
9 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Narrative;
11 THE COURT: Sustained.
12 I’m going to instruct the jury that that
13 statement that was admitted just now was not
14 admitted for the truth of the matter asserted by
15 Janet, but for her state of mind as she related to
17 Next question.
18 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Do you know if during this
19 period of time Gavin was seeing a doctor on a
20 regular basis?
21 A. Yes, he was.
22 Q. How often was he seeing his doctors?
23 A. I’m not clear. I think probably every month
24 or so.
25 Q. Do you know when his appointments were
26 around that time?
27 A. I don’t really. I know that he was having
28 them scheduled, but I wasn’t sure when he had to go. 5826
1 Q. All right. And I think you said the next
2 time you saw her was at a beauty parlor; is that
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. How did you happen to see her at a beauty
7 A. She called me at work and -- I hadn’t
8 talked -- I hadn’t actually seen her in a long time,
9 and she called me at work and said --
10 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
11 THE WITNESS: (To a juror) Bless you.
12 THE COURT: Sustained.
13 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did she notify you where
14 you -- where she was?
15 A. She called me at work.
16 Q. Did you go to that location?
17 A. Yes, sir, I did.
18 Q. Was anybody else there -- was she there at
19 the location?
20 A. Yes, she was.
21 Q. Was anybody else at that location?
22 A. When I came in, she was sitting there by
24 Q. All right. At some point -- without getting
25 into the content, did you have a conversation with
27 A. Yes, sir.
28 Q. Is this the first time that you’d seen her 5827
1 in a few weeks?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Was any -- and then I think you said
4 somebody else came. Who came?
5 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; misstates the
7 MR. ZONEN: Withdraw the question.
8 Q. Who did you see then?
9 A. I saw Vinnie and Gavin come in the back door
10 of the nail salon.
11 Q. Is Vinnie somebody you knew prior to that
13 A. No, sir.
14 Q. Were you introduced to him at that time?
15 A. I was either introduced or he introduced
16 himself. I’m not positive. I’m not clear.
17 Q. Can you describe Vinnie to us?
18 A. He would be a white male.
19 Q. About how old?
20 A. Young. Younger.
21 Q. How old is “younger”?
22 A. 25. I don’t -- that’s just speculation.
23 Q. Did he tell you who he was, Vinnie?
24 A. I’m not sure.
25 Q. Was there a discussion with Vinnie about
26 Janet Arvizo returning to Neverland?
27 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
28 MR. ZONEN: Statement in furtherance of. 5828
1 THE COURT: All right. I’ll admit it for the
2 limited purpose in furtherance of the conspiracy.
3 THE WITNESS: Could you ask me the question
4 again, please?
5 THE COURT: Go ahead, the court reporter.
6 (Record read.)
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: And what did Vinnie say about
10 MR. MESEREAU: Same objection.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Same ruling, then.
12 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Go ahead.
13 A. He said that -- he said, “No, you can’t do
14 that.” And I said, “Are you saying that I cannot
15 take her out of here?” And he said, “I got to check
16 on that.” And he walked outside and immediately got
17 on his cell phone, followed by Gavin.
18 Q. Gavin followed him?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. What was Gavin’s behavior like at that time?
21 A. Cocky.
22 Q. Cocky?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Explain that, please.
25 A. I don’t know. He was -- it’s hard to
26 explain. He was -- just walked in. He strutted in
27 with Vinnie. And it wasn’t the sweet, loving Gavin
28 that I knew. 5829
1 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
2 move to strike.
3 THE COURT: Just a moment.
4 Overruled. The answer is --
5 Hold on just a moment, here, if you would,
7 Go ahead. Thank you.
8 MR. ZONEN: May I proceed?
9 THE COURT: Yes.
10 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: All right. You described
11 Gavin’s response. Was Gavin behaving differently
12 than he had been prior to -- well, prior to -- the
13 early part of February when they went to Miami?
14 A. Yes, he was.
15 Q. In what way was he behaving differently at
16 this point?
17 A. Again, he was acting very cocky. He -- kind
18 of rude, actually.
19 Q. Did he greet you at all when he saw you?
20 A. I don’t think he wanted to see me. I don’t
21 think that he -- he was very surprised when he saw
22 me there. And he may have greeted me, but he was
23 certainly not a loving -- it was almost like, “What
24 are you doing here?”
25 Q. Your relationship with him prior to Miami,
26 how would you describe that relationship?
27 A. Father-like.
28 Q. You had a good relationship with him? 5830