1 Q. Mr. Jackson would sometimes be there and
2 sometimes not; is that right?
3 A. That’s right.
4 Q. And then there were other days when he would
5 have large groups of either, for instance,
6 disadvantaged children or children who were sick or
7 just children in general who would come to be his
8 guest at the ranch; is that correct?
9 A. That’s correct.
10 Q. During those times, Mr. Jackson was often
11 not on the property; is that right?
12 A. Often not on the property?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. That’s right.
15 Q. And he was sometimes on the property; is
16 that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Whether he was on the property or not, the
19 entire staff was instructed to treat all of the
20 people, adults and children, as guests, as if they
21 were guests at somebody’s private home; is that
22 correct?
23 A. That’s correct.
24 Q. The only difference is that there would be
25 certain boundaries, you can’t go into certain parts
26 of the house and that sort of thing; is that
27 correct?
28 A. That’s correct. 7050
1 Q. But other than that, if the kids want
2 something, if the adults want something, everybody
3 is there to serve; is that right?
4 A. That’s right.
5 Q. Now, you mentioned that the security guards
6 often did the job of other -- let me withdraw that.
7 You mentioned the security guards worked with the
8 fire department from time to time; is that correct?
9 A. Basically they were the same department.
10 Q. All right. And you had at least one fire
11 truck there?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Was there a time when you had more than one?
14 A. Well, there was a time when there was --
15 when I was there, there was a time that there was
16 more than one, one was not working.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. But there were two. And then prior to me
19 being there, yes, there was, I believe, more than
20 one.
21 Q. Eventually they turned one of those fire
22 trucks into a water truck, I think.
23 A. Water tender, yes.
24 Q. There you go. But they have one operating
25 professional fire truck there; is that correct?
26 A. Not in the sense -- fire rescue, like a
27 brush truck. It would be not like a large city fire
28 truck. But, yes, a working -- held water, medical 7051
1 equipment.
2 Q. All right. Not a hook and ladder, but
3 something that was an emergency vehicle --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- that could be used to tend to emergencies
6 on this ranch, correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And anywhere from somebody being injured,
9 to having a brush fire, to anything else that was
10 needed on an emergency basis; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And both the people who were assigned as
13 security officers and those assigned as firemen were
14 somewhat interchangeable in these tasks. If it
15 needed to be done, you all would respond and do it;
16 is that correct?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Now, there were a number of people who were
19 in the fire department from time to time who
20 eventually became employed in other fire
21 departments; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. So this was an area where people
24 could work, gain additional experience in order to
25 go work someplace else; is that right?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And did you feel -- as a professional law
28 enforcement officer, did you feel that the -- that 7052
1 the operation was run professionally?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. Now, the duties of security and
4 fire you said were pretty much merged. But in
5 addition to those duties, you also had duties to
6 attend to the needs of guests and Mr. Jackson, or
7 anybody else who required some assistance on the
8 ranch; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And they were not always law enforcement
11 duties or fire duties, correct?
12 A. Generally, no.
13 Q. Generally not.
14 So, if somebody needed something, you or
15 anybody else that worked there -- say a guest needed
16 something, you or anybody else that worked there was
17 expected to respond as favorably as possible; is
18 that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. All right.
21 THE COURT: Counsel? Take our break.
22 MR. SANGER: Okay. Thank you.
23 (Recess taken.)
24 --o0o--
25
26
27
28 7053
1 REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE
2
3
4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE )
5 OF CALIFORNIA, )
6 Plaintiff, )
7 -vs- ) No. 1133603
8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
9 Defendant. )
10
11
12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR,
13 CSR #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby
14 certify:
15 That the foregoing pages 6992 through 7053
16 contain a true and correct transcript of the
17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled
18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at
19 said proceedings on April 20, 2005, and thereafter
20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided
21 transcription under my direction.
22 DATED: Santa Maria, California,
23 April 20, 2005.
24
25
26
27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 7054
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
5
6
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
13
14
15
16
17 REPORTER’S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
18
19 WEDNESDAY, APRIL 20, 2005
20
21 8:30 A.M.
22
23 (PAGES 7055 THROUGH 7115)
24
25
26
27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 7055
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
9
10
11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A.
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067
14 -and-
15 SANGER & SWYSEN
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C
17 Santa Barbara, California 93101
18 -and-
19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ.
20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs, California 90670
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 7056
1 I N D E X
2
3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index. Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index.
6 Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index. Mr. Oxman is listed as “O” on index.
7
8
9 PLAINTIFF’S WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
10
11 BARRON, Brian 7058-SA (Continuing)
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 7057
1 THE COURT: Go ahead.
2 MR. SANGER: Thank you.
3 Q. All right. Mr. Barron --
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. -- or Officer Barron, across the street
6 from --
7 THE BAILIFF: Can you turn your microphone
8 on?
9 MR. SANGER: Oh, sorry. There you go.
10 Q. Across the street from Neverland on Figueroa
11 Mountain Road, there are two schools; is that
12 correct?
13 A. That’s correct.
14 Q. What kind of schools are they?
15 A. One is a boarding school, and one is like
16 a -- an elementary school, I believe.
17 Q. Okay. And are these private schools?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. People are there during the day?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So there’s activity, at least during the
22 school year; is that correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. All right. February and March of 2003,
25 those schools would have been open; people would
26 have been there?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Parents coming and going? 7058
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Teachers?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Administrators?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, you told us about the security staff
7 that you were a member of, correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And you told us about the fire department?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Did Mr. Jackson also have personal security
12 or personal bodyguards?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And are these people who traveled with him?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You did not travel with Mr. Jackson; is that
17 correct?
18 A. No.
19 Q. So your duties were pretty much restricted
20 to the ranch. I shouldn’t say restricted. It’s a
21 big ranch, but you were there at the ranch, correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. If he went to Los Angeles or Miami or went
24 on tour or anything else, you would not go with him;
25 is that correct?
26 A. No.
27 Q. And who would go with him?
28 A. Whomever was his personal security at the 7059
1 time. It did change.
2 Q. All right. So he did have people who were
3 generally experienced in going on the road and
4 protecting a celebrity under those circumstances; is
5 that correct?
6 A. There were times when he did, yes.
7 Q. Okay. There were some times when you
8 thought his personal security may not have been --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- quite as -- okay. All right.
11 Now, do you remember Janet Arvizo?
12 A. I know she was there. I do not remember her
13 face until yesterday.
14 Q. All right. But you remember her being there
15 and you remember having some contact with her; is
16 that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you remember Gavin Arvizo?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You remember Star Arvizo?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And in general, did Janet Arvizo ever appear
23 to not want to be at the ranch?
24 A. In general, I couldn’t answer.
25 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. I’m going to
26 object on the basis of foundation.
27 THE COURT: Sustained.
28 Q. BY MR. SANGER: All right. Would it be your 7060
1 opinion, based on your seeing her there at the
2 ranch, that what stood out in your mind was that
3 Mrs. Arvizo appeared that she wanted to be there?
4 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. Same
5 objection.
6 THE COURT: Sustained.
7 Q. BY MR. SANGER: All right. What kind of
8 contact did you have with Janet Arvizo?
9 A. Probably talked to her on the phone once or
10 twice. Other than that, relatively none.
11 Q. When you talked to her on the phone, did it
12 appear that she wanted to be there at the ranch?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And Janet Arvizo had access to the house,
15 full access to the house; is that correct?
16 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. Foundation.
17 THE COURT: Overruled.
18 You may answer.
19 THE WITNESS: I don’t know.
20 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Okay. Do you recall
21 testifying before the Santa Barbara Grand Jury on
22 April the 12th, 2004?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you recall telling the grand jury that
25 Janet Arvizo was one of the people who had access;
26 she would have access to the house?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And when you were -- when the District 7061
1 Attorney said, “Okay,” you said, “No question.”
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is that correct? And she had full access to
4 the house because her children were there; is that
5 correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. Now, did you have any personal
8 observations about the behavior of Gavin and Star?
9 A. No.
10 Q. They appeared -- from what you could see,
11 they appeared to want to be at the ranch; is that
12 correct?
13 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. Foundation.
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Did you see them from time
16 to time at the ranch?
17 A. Seldom.
18 Q. Was there any indication -- from the seldom
19 times that you saw them, was there any indication
20 that they did not want to be at the ranch?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You indicated that part of the security --
23 part of security’s job was to monitor who was coming
24 onto the property, correct?
25 A. Correct.
26 Q. And that was recorded, to a large extent, in
27 the gate logs; is that correct?
28 A. Yes. 7062
1 Q. Were you aware that in addition to just
2 plain interlopers, that there would be people who
3 would try to gain some kind of introduction to Mr.
4 Jackson to get into his favor?
5 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. Ambiguous;
6 foundation.
7 THE COURT: Overruled.
8 You may answer.
9 THE WITNESS: How do you mean?
10 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Well, were there people who
11 seemed to be trying to get close to Mr. Jackson?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And sometimes Mr. Jackson really wouldn’t
14 want those people to be around him, correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. So if they were allowed on the ranch, they
17 were to be treated courteously?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. But nevertheless, you were to try to help
20 Mr. Jackson not be bothered by people; is that
21 right?
22 A. That’s right.
23 Q. And Mr. Jackson, of course, during the time
24 you were there, and now, for that matter, is an
25 international celebrity, an artist, a very well-
26 known person, correct?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And there would be people who would 7063
1 basically be trying to get into his good graces; is
2 that right?
3 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. Foundation.
4 THE COURT: It’s argumentative. Sustained.
5 Q. BY MR. SANGER: All right. Now, let me ask
6 you one other thing before we get to the gate logs
7 and some of the other documents you identified.
8 You were actually asked -- let me put it a
9 different way. You were contacted by the Santa
10 Barbara County Sheriff’s Office in December of 2003;
11 is that correct?
12 A. That’s correct.
13 Q. And in particular, Detective Bonner of the
14 Santa Barbara Sheriff’s Department contacted you; is
15 that correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And he did an interview of you to determine
18 if you’d seen anything unlawful and so on; is that
19 correct?
20 A. That’s correct.
21 Q. But then he asked that you work as an
22 informant; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you were at that time a sworn peace
25 officer of the Guadalupe Police Department, correct?
26 A. That’s correct.
27 Q. And he basically wanted you to go back to
28 work for Mr. Jackson in December of 2003 to be an 7064
1 informant, correct?
2 A. That’s correct.
3 Q. And at that time, you know that the raid had
4 already occurred on Mr. Jackson’s house, correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. You knew Mr. Jackson had a lawyer, had
7 counsel, right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you were being asked to go in as a law
10 enforcement informant into his ranch, at his home,
11 and inform for the sheriff; is that correct?
12 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. Asked and
13 answered.
14 THE COURT: Overruled.
15 You may answer.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 Q. BY MR. SANGER: And you refused to do that;
18 is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What I’d like to do now is go through some
21 of the exhibits that you’ve identified and ask you,
22 based on your training and experience, to interpret
23 the documents, okay?
24 To the extent you were there, you made an
25 entry, and then you can contribute that as well and
26 say, “Yes, I actually wrote that.”
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. But to the extent that you introduced these 7065
1 documents, you said they were kept in the ordinary
2 course of business, I’d like you to explain what
3 they mean, if you could.
4 A. Okay.
5 MR. SANGER: So I’m going to start with
6 Exhibit 300, and, Your Honor, if this procedure is
7 acceptable, I’d like to do this without asking each
8 time -- or I can. Whatever the Court wants me to
9 do.
10 What I propose to do is identify the
11 document by exhibit number. If there is more than
12 one page to the exhibit, I’ll indicate which page of
13 the exhibit. If -- in the Exhibits 334 and 335,
14 there are hundreds of pages, so I’ll refer to the
15 Bates stamp number on the bottom of the page for
16 that purpose.
17 And if that procedure is acceptable, what
18 I’d like to do then is put each of these up on
19 the -- not all of them, but each of the ones I want
20 to point out on the overhead projector, and I’ll
21 just make reference to it at the time.
22 THE COURT: That’s a fine procedure.
23 MR. SANGER: Okay. Thank you. In other
24 words, I won’t ask leave each time. I’ll just do
25 it.
26 THE COURT: That’s good.
27 MR. SANGER: Thank you. Okay. In that
28 case, with the Court’s permission in advance, I’ll 7066
1 put Exhibit 300 up.
2 THE BAILIFF: Can you put “Input 4”?
3 MR. SANGER: Or we’ll put up Mr.
4 Auchincloss’s....
5 THE COURT: That was “Input 4.”
6 Q. BY MR. SANGER: What I’m going to do, I
7 hope, is put it up in a way so we can show the
8 exhibit tag number, if such exists, and then I’ll
9 give you an opportunity here to see what the
10 document is, best we can.
11 If you want me to -- this was printed pretty
12 large, so we can do it this way, if you want me to
13 scroll it up or down. If you’d like me to approach
14 and give it to you, if you can’t read it, I’ll just
15 walk up and show it to you. So just let me know.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. This is Exhibit 300. And it appears at the
18 top to be an accident damage report, okay?
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. And I think you told us that was kept in the
21 ordinary course of business; is that correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And the accident damage report appears to
24 have been generated on a computer; is that right?
25 A. Correct.
26 Q. In other words, it’s not just a form that’s
27 handwritten in, but somebody generated the whole
28 thing on a computer, correct? 7067
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And the format is such that it appears to be
3 a standard format, and then you put in particular
4 information based on the particular incident; is
5 that correct?
6 A. That’s correct.
7 Q. All right. Now, what would be the purpose
8 of this particular accident damage report? Let me
9 rephrase that. What does this accident damage
10 report refer to?
11 A. One of the golf carts.
12 Q. All right. And from that report and from
13 the records, and based on your training and
14 experience, can you explain what happened and why
15 this report was written?
16 A. I can read it.
17 Q. Okay. Well, let’s do it this way, because
18 we’ll start this way and then the other ones will
19 speak for themselves.
20 There’s a date up there at the very top,
21 right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. 6-21-02.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would that be the date of the incident?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And then you have a date at the bottom.
28 Would that be the date the report was written? 7068
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And there’s a time, 1610, so 4:10 in the
3 afternoon, correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And the time at the top would be 1530, which
6 would be 3:30 in the afternoon, correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. All right. So this report is designed to
9 document the fact that Gavin Arvizo was involved in
10 crashing a golf cart into the theater fountain; is
11 that correct?
12 A. That’s correct.
13 Q. And the cause of the accident was recorded
14 as reckless driving; is that correct?
15 A. That’s correct.
16 Q. All right. Now, you told us that you’re
17 supposed to be very courteous to the guests, no
18 matter who they are, where they’re from or whatever.
19 Is it appropriate, however, for security officers to
20 warn guests, particularly children, if they’re
21 involved in unsafe behavior?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And based on this report, does it appear
24 that there was a warning given to Gavin Arvizo about
25 driving the golf cart?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And the warning was to slow down or the golf
28 cart would be taken away; is that correct? 7069
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. So based on your experience in these
3 records, that would indicate that an officer gave
4 that warning to Gavin Arvizo?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. Were you aware of other
7 incidents involving Gavin or Star Arvizo that
8 involves destruction of property or accidents or
9 that sort of thing?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay. Did you review these records to see
12 if you could find such evidence?
13 A. Not for that purpose, no.
14 Q. Okay. That’s fair enough. Actually, I
15 didn’t see that. I don’t think it was on my copy.
16 Maybe it was.
17 On the back of 300 is a photograph. Does
18 that appear to be a Polaroid-type photograph?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is that the front of a golf cart?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And it kind of looks like a car.
23 A. Well, you couldn’t hold golf clubs on them.
24 They’re more of a car.
25 Q. It’s essentially the frame of a golf cart
26 and it’s got a little fiberglass car body on it?
27 A. Correct.
28 Q. And this one, I think, is the Batmobile one; 7070
1 is that --
2 A. We call it “the Batman cart.”
3 Q. “The Batman cart,” okay. In any event, this
4 photograph is taken to show damage that was
5 associated with that report; is that correct?
6 A. That’s correct.
7 Q. I’m going to go to Exhibit 301.
8 And just so nobody gets too nervous, Your
9 Honor, I’m going to try to -- I’m going to keep
10 these in order, but it’s too hard to put them back
11 on the sprocket there, and I’ll do that when we’re
12 through, if that’s all right.
13 THE COURT: Yes.
14 MR. SANGER: 301 consists of a number of
15 pages. And in the book, I would say it’s page four.
16 It’s the back of the second sleeved page. No, I’m
17 sorry, it’s the back of the first sleeved page, so
18 it would be page two, I suppose. And let me put
19 this up, if I may.
20 Do you want to see it first?
21 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Uh-huh.
22 Q. BY MR. SANGER: All right. Exhibit 301 is
23 the front, and then the back of the sleeve is the
24 next page. And we’ll use this document for the
25 purpose of orienting everybody to the way this
26 works.
27 At that time, there was a form that looked
28 like this, correct? 7071
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And that form was changed slightly as time
3 went on; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. But essentially you’ve got -- at the top,
6 you have the blanket “Routine Authorized Entries.”
7 That’s people who might be making deliveries, that
8 sort of thing; is that correct?
9 A. That’s correct.
10 Q. I see up there, for instance, “Santa Barbara
11 Surfacing.” Looks like somebody may have been there
12 to do some surfacing work on the roads; is that
13 correct?
14 A. I don’t know what they were doing, but, yes.
15 Q. Okay. Just as an example, all right. And
16 then I see -- looks like it says “Santa Ynez Ford.”
17 It is a little hard to see.
18 A. “Santa Ynez Feed.”
19 Q. That would make more sense. “Santa Ynez
20 Feed.” That would be, for instance, you would
21 assume somebody came on at 11:30 to deliver some
22 feed, and by 11:57, or whatever that says, they went
23 back out the gate, correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And the in-and-out times on this are
26 recorded at the time somebody comes in the gate,
27 right?
28 A. Yes. 7072
1 Q. And the time they leave, right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So when somebody comes in the gate, the
4 gates are opened if they’re allowed to have access?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. They stop the car or the truck right there
7 by the guard house, correct?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. And the guard comes up and greets them?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And will write down who the person is and
12 write down the exact time that it is at that moment;
13 is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And when they leave, the same thing occurs
16 in reverse. They’re stopped before the gate. The
17 guard will record who’s in the vehicle and the time
18 that they’re leaving; is that correct?
19 A. Well, yes. We would make sure it’s the same
20 person, and then we wouldn’t record their name
21 again, but we would just record their time out.
22 Q. Their time out, okay.
23 So if somebody came in with three people and
24 only left with one, you’d want to know about that?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. All right. Now, we have the guest names
27 down there. And guests would be people who are
28 guests of the owner staying at the ranch, correct? 7073
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And they might be guests who stay all day
3 and they might be guests that are coming and going
4 that same day; is that correct?
5 A. That’s correct.
6 Q. All right. Now, I don’t know if it’s the
7 glare or what. It’s a little hard to read. Can you
8 read it from there?
9 A. For the most part.
10 Q. Okay. Right at the top of “Guests,” it
11 says, “Grace”; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And it says, “C/O.” And that means?
14 A. Carried over. They were carried over from
15 the previous 24-hour period.
16 Q. So, in other words, there’s no entry time
17 for Grace, because Grace was already there?
18 A. Already there at midnight the night before.
19 This was prepared at midnight the night before.
20 Q. And there’s no indication that Grace left,
21 so one would assume that she would still be there
22 the next day?
23 A. At midnight of this day, this would be
24 completed, and that “CO,” carry-over, would be put
25 in the “out” box. So she would continue to be
26 carried over for the period.
27 Q. So let’s look down the list. And the third
28 person on the list appears to have gotten there at 7074
1 1205; is that correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. And that would be five minutes after noon;
4 is that correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And then left at 1440 hours, which would be
7 2:40 in the afternoon; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you tell me who that person is?
10 A. I can’t read that.
11 MR. SANGER: All right. May I approach with
12 a copy?
13 THE COURT: Yes.
14 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Now that you have it in
15 front of you, can you read the name?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What does it say?
18 A. “M. Bashir.”
19 Q. So Mr. Bashir came there at five minutes
20 after noon and left at about 2:40, or left at
21 exactly 2:40, correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Let me leave that with you just for the
24 moment, just in case you have trouble reading the
25 rest of it.
26 A. Uh-huh.
27 Q. On that same day, it appears Chris Tucker
28 arrived; is that correct? 7075
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And Chris Tucker arrived at?
3 A. 1500, or 3 p.m.
4 Q. So 3 p.m. And it appears that at the same
5 time Chris Tucker arrived, a number of other people
6 came through the gate; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And those people include Gavin Arvizo?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Star Arvizo?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. There are a couple of other people there,
13 and then I think there are three other people, and
14 then there’s something that says, “Gavellin.” Or
15 what do you think it says?
16 A. Well, it looks like maybe “Aubrey.”
17 Q. Below that. Right below that.
18 A. “Gavel” -- yeah, “Gavellin.” I --
19 “Gavellin.”
20 Q. “Gavellin.” Do people always get the
21 spelling right at the gate?
22 A. Not always, no.
23 Q. Okay. You try your best, but sometimes you
24 just spell it the way you thought you heard it?
25 A. The way it sounds, yeah.
26 Q. All right. So those people, plus Adrian,
27 Kelly Bond and Aubrey, or Audrey, whatever that
28 says, all those people seem to have come at three 7076
1 o’clock on the dot, correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. Now, it appears that Mr. Tucker
4 and the Arvizos did not leave -- and I’ll ask you to
5 assume, just for the sake of this question, that
6 “Gavellin” is an Arvizo. But those three people
7 came at three o’clock and they did not leave that
8 day; is that right?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. All right. Let me retrieve my book, if I
11 may. Thank you. I guess I was asking permission of
12 the Court to approach there, to be specific.
13 I’m now going to go to Exhibit 302, and this
14 would be what appears to be the third page of 302 in
15 the exhibit, the official exhibit book. So this
16 does not have a tag on it, but the first page does.
17 And I’m sure I would be corrected if I were wrong.
18 This is 302 I’m putting up, the third page.
19 So let’s start up here, first of all. This
20 is on 6-22, the date following the day that we just
21 saw; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And we look down here, and we see that it
24 appears that Chris Tucker, Gavin, Star, and the
25 other people we talked about, and then this
26 “Gavellin,” all show that they are carried over; is
27 that correct?
28 A. Correct. 7077
1 Q. And they’re carried over not only from the
2 day before, but they appear to be carried over to
3 the next day.
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And if we look at 303 -- and we’ll take
6 page two of 303. It’s on the back of the envelope
7 here. So that’s 303, and I’ll turn it over, and
8 that’s the guest names. And once again, Chris
9 Tucker, Gavin, Star, and “Gavellin” are all carried
10 over as guests; is that correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And I’m sorry, that’s the next day, 6-23; is
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. We go to 304, Exhibit 304. Looking at
16 page two of 304, page two, 6-24-02?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And again, we show Chris Tucker, Gavin, Star
19 and “Gavellin” all carried over; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And it doesn’t show any check-out time for
22 them or any time they went by the gate; is that
23 correct?
24 A. No. That’s correct.
25 Q. And then 305, this would be the third page,
26 6-25-02. And it shows Chris Tucker, Gavin, Star.
27 And I don’t see “Gavellin” on there or “Davellin” or
28 anything else like that. But it shows that Chris 7078
1 Tucker’s group left at 7:54 in the morning; is that
2 correct?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. So they would have been there overnight and
5 then they left together?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Okay. Now, if we skip ahead timewise to --
8 it’s Exhibit 306, and it’s page two of 306, it says
9 “6-29-02” on the top, and it appears that Gavin,
10 Star, and Davellin, or Davellin, and a limo driver
11 all showed up at 46 minutes after midnight; is that
12 correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And Gavin, Star and Davellin all stayed
15 there overnight that day, correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And the limo driver got a cup of coffee and
18 left, looks like.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And then going to Exhibit 307, about
21 6-30-02, we have Gavin, Star and Davellin all
22 staying overnight at the ranch, correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 MR. SANGER: All right. Excuse me just one
25 second.
26 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel
27 table.)
28 MR. SANGER: Excuse me, Your Honor. I’m 7079
1 sorry. I just had to clear something up.
2 Q. Okay. I want to -- just because it’s in
3 sequence in the exhibits, let me show you 308, and
4 this is a different kind of a form. And we’ll be
5 able to go a lot quicker here. And actually, we’ll
6 skip quite a ways ahead in a moment, just so
7 everybody has something to anticipate.
8 308, okay, and I’ll try to get as much of a
9 wide angle as I can and still read it. Do you see
10 that? It says, “Security Clearance and General
11 Information”?
12 A. Yes. “Guest Information.”
13 Q. Or, I’m sorry, I can’t read it. All right.
14 I can read it here. “Guest Information.”
15 And this is information about the people who
16 were arriving. And actually, this dates back a
17 little out of sequence. It dates back to 6-21-02,
18 correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And basically this is information so you
21 know how to treat the guests and what they can do;
22 is that right?
23 A. We know who’s coming and what they’re able
24 to do.
25 Q. Okay. So this tells you the estimated time
26 of arrival; is that correct?
27 A. Correct.
28 Q. And you never know exactly if somebody’s 7080
1 going to arrive on time, but it gives you a
2 heads-up, right?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. And it shows Chris Tucker, Gavin Arvizo,
5 Star Arvizo, Adrian, Kelly, Gavellin and Aubrey, it
6 looks like.
7 So on 6-21, this was telling you these
8 people are really going to show up, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And then at the bottom, it says Mr. Jackson
11 has cleared the guests to have full access, correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. So Chris Tucker and his guests are allowed
14 to have full access to all of these activities; is
15 that right?
16 A. That’s right.
17 Q. And those activities include the hill house,
18 pool, spa, water fort, dance studio, and then quad
19 runners; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And what were the quad runners?
22 A. ATVs.
23 Q. Were people supposed to keep those on the
24 property?
25 A. They were property of the ranch.
26 Q. But, I mean, they weren’t supposed to go
27 drive on Figueroa Mountain Road.
28 A. Correct. 7081
1 Q. And they definitely were not supposed to go
2 into Los Olivos.
3 A. No.
4 Q. All right. And then there’s scooters,
5 right?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. Golf carts?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Jet skis. The main house. And written in
10 is “horseback riding”?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So Mr. Jackson, according to this record,
13 kept in the ordinary course of business, had cleared
14 the guests to have full access to all of those
15 activities?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And those guests would be Mr. Tucker and the
18 Arvizos and his other guests; is that correct?
19 A. I believe Mr. Tucker, there, says he was the
20 driver. Whether or not he had access to that stuff
21 at the same time, probably, but --
22 Q. Do you know who Chris Tucker is?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Who is Chris Tucker?
25 A. He was an employee of the ranch.
26 Q. Okay. Are you thinking --
27 A. Or of Mr. Jackson.
28 Q. Are you thinking of Chris Carter? 7082
1 A. I’m sorry. Chris Tucker. Excuse me. I
2 apologize.
3 Q. Chris Tucker is the actor?
4 A. Chris Tucker is the actor, yes. I’m sorry.
5 Q. Do you remember him visiting the ranch?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you would assume Chris Tucker would
8 have --
9 A. Chris Tucker, I’m sorry. Thank you.
10 Q. He would have full access to --
11 A. Yes, he would.
12 Q. All right. Now, if we go to Exhibit 309,
13 you may recall -- let’s show 309. There we go.
14 You may recall that when we went through the
15 gate logs, it appeared that Gavin, Star and Davellin
16 came back and Mr. Tucker was not there; is that
17 correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Now, when they came back this time, they’re
20 estimated to arrive sometime in the evening. And if
21 I’m not mistaken, I think they got there very early
22 in the morning the next day. But here, Mr. Tucker
23 is not there. They were not cleared for the quad
24 runner or the jet skis; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And they were not cleared for horseback
27 riding; is that correct?
28 A. Correct. 7083
1 Q. Based on your experience and understanding
2 of these records kept in the ordinary course of
3 business, who would have given those instructions?
4 A. Those instructions there?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. They would -- this would have come to us
7 through the administration office.
8 Q. All right. So somebody in the chain of
9 command above decided that, under these
10 circumstances, that these children should not have
11 access to the quads or the jet ski?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. All right. We’ll go to Exhibit 310. And
14 this will be the second page of 310. And it appears
15 that -- 7-1-02. And it appears that Gavin, Star and
16 Davellin stayed overnight, correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And then they left at 2114 hours, which
19 would be 9:14 in the evening, correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Now, then we skip ahead in time to September
22 the 15th, which is the next record in the exhibit
23 book which was presented to you by Mr. Auchincloss.
24 And that shows 9-15-02; is that correct?
25 A. That’s correct.
26 Q. And on 9-15-02, we have Chris Tucker, Gavin,
27 Star, sister, it looks like it says Chris’s nephew;
28 is that correct? 7084
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. There’s a star there. What does that mean?
3 A. Probably means that the time was either not
4 written down when they came in, or it was -- at that
5 time, whomever was checking people in the gate
6 failed to write them in, or we just didn’t know when
7 they came in.
8 Q. Okay. So every once in a while somebody
9 makes a mistake, true?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. That will happen.
12 And then it shows on that day, which is
13 9-15-02, Mr. Tucker and his group, including Gavin,
14 Star, sister, and Chris’s nephew, all stayed
15 overnight; is that correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. I’m going to go to Exhibit 312. 9-16-02.
18 And here we have a record that Chris Tucker and his
19 group stayed overnight. It also shows “bus driver,”
20 correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you remember if Chris Tucker had a bus?
23 A. I don’t know if he personally had a bus. I
24 don’t remember.
25 Q. Well, looks like the bus driver left with
26 Chris Tucker and the rest of the party at 6:54 in
27 the morning; is that correct?
28 A. Yes. 7085
1 Q. Now, do you know if Mr. Jackson was at the
2 ranch at these various times that we’ve covered so
3 far?
4 A. I don’t know.
5 Q. Okay. Now, 9-26 -- I’m sorry, this would be
6 Exhibit 313, the second page. 9-26 at the top, ‘02.
7 And I think you can read this, but if you can’t,
8 just tell me.
9 I don’t know if I made it better or worse.
10 Okay. All right. Looks like Martin Bashir
11 arrived at two o’clock in the afternoon and left at
12 6:13; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And it looks like he probably arrived with
15 some other people there. There’s three other
16 people, correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. We see -- we see Gary Hearn arrived at 2:30;
19 is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. Looks like somebody adjusted
22 that, but that was the way it was entered at the
23 time; is that correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. All right. And it looks like -- now, first
26 of all, Gary Hearn is who?
27 A. Gary’s a driver.
28 Q. He’s a driver for Michael Jackson and for 7086
1 Neverland; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. He often drives a limousine or whatever car
4 is appropriate to transport people, correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And Gary Hearn seems to have arrived with
7 Gavin, Star, and “Davida” or “Davila” or something,
8 whatever that says, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. All at the same time. And then it appears
11 that they were there from 2:30 and stayed overnight;
12 is that right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And then I’m going to put up 314, the second
15 page. And it shows Gavin, Star, and “Davida” - I
16 think that’s what it says - stayed over that night
17 as well, correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And then I’m going to put up 315, page two,
20 for 9-28, okay? I’m going to go down to the bottom,
21 and it looks like Gavin, Star, and “Davida,” or
22 whatever that says - all right? - stayed overnight,
23 but they left at four o’clock in the afternoon; is
24 that correct?
25 A. That’s correct.
26 Q. And it appears that Gary -- down at the
27 bottom, that’s probably “Gary Hearn”; is that
28 correct? 7087
1 A. Most likely, yes.
2 Q. And Gary Hearn came and went, but he came in
3 about three o’clock, and then left at exactly four
4 o’clock; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So based on that, you would assume that he
7 drove the -- Gavin, Star, and whoever Davida is; is
8 that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And it looks like it -- it’s really hard to
11 see what that says there, but it does look like
12 there’s an entry, and I just want to clarify it so I
13 don’t get confused. It says something like “Maxim
14 Bahit”?
15 A. Your guess is as good as mine.
16 Q. All right. It’s not “Martin Bashir,”
17 though?
18 A. It doesn’t look like “Martin Bashir” to me.
19 Q. All right. Now, if somebody checks out --
20 in other words, I say “checks out.” If somebody
21 goes through the gate, out, and then they go to
22 dinner or to town or whatever, and they come back,
23 when they come back, they should be logged back in
24 again with the time?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Does that sometimes not happen?
27 A. For employees? Sometimes.
28 Q. For anybody. 7088
1 A. Yeah, I’m sure there’s times when it
2 happens.
3 Q. All right. Now, I’m going to skip way
4 ahead, and you guys are going to be happy to hear
5 that, to Exhibit 331.
6 Okay. I’m sorry. Better yet, 333. And I’m
7 going to put 333 up. This is the second page of it.
8 And there’s a -- wide angle here. Okay. A medical
9 report log; is that correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And that logs in various medical emergencies
12 or skinned knees or anything else that happens that
13 requires somebody to respond?
14 A. Each medical report for the year.
15 Q. And on the other side, actually the front
16 side of 333, there’s a medical report for Star
17 Arvizo; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you read that?
20 A. Not well. Actually, that really hurts my
21 eyes. If you could bring it up, that would be
22 great.
23 Q. Actually, I don’t blame you.
24 May I approach, Your Honor?
25 THE COURT: Yes.
26 Q. BY MR. SANGER: I’m giving you a copy of
27 that page. Can you take a quick look at it there?
28 And what I want to ask you is, basically, 7089
1 does this document reflect that Star Arvizo
2 apparently had a fall on a scooter, slid on some
3 loose gravel or something?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And he had minor scrapes to his left knee,
6 right ankle and right knee?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So that sort of thing was documented
9 carefully at Neverland, and that’s an example of it;
10 is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. SANGER: All right. May I approach to
13 retrieve that, Your Honor?
14 THE COURT: Yes.
15 Q. BY MR. SANGER: All right. I’m now going to
16 go to Exhibit 334. For the benefit of the Court and
17 everybody else, it’s probably about 90 pages, and so
18 this is a part where I’m going to refer to -- I’ll
19 just put the first page up so we can see it here,
20 334, and it’s again one of the logs, which I believe
21 here actually starts February 1 of ‘03, correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. And now I’m going to refer to a
24 Bates stamp number, which is a number in the lower
25 part of the document, generally the lower right
26 corner, and I believe in all of these it starts out
27 with “MJ” and two zeroes and then a number. And I
28 will refer to that so we’re on the same page. 7090
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 Q. BY MR. SANGER: And I’m going to skip to
3 page 116. That’s MJ00116. And I’m going to show
4 you this here.
5 Now, this appears to be the format that was
6 being used in 2003; is that correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And I think it’s a little different, at
9 least a little different than some of the forms that
10 were used because under “Guest Information” you also
11 have “Ranch Vehicle Information” --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- showing when people come in and out.
14 On this particular document -- oops, sorry.
15 Let’s try here. This is for February the 6th, 2003;
16 is that correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And it appears that at 2243 hours -- let’s
19 see. 2245 hours, it should be 10:45 at night, it
20 says, “Owner and guests”; is that correct?
21 A. Yeah. Could I see that page? I -- I would
22 assume it does.
23 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: May I see that?
24 MR. SANGER: May I approach?
25 THE COURT: Yes.
26 THE WITNESS: Based on the paperwork that we
27 fill out, we would not have put “owner” or
28 “Mr. Jackson” or anything that would represent him 7091
1 on this paperwork. In the time that I worked there,
2 I have never done that, that I can remember.
3 It could be -- it could be, “Owner and
4 guest,” which I didn’t write it, but definitely
5 could be.
6 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Okay. That’s fair enough.
7 I’ll ask you about that a little more so it makes
8 sense.
9 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Could I see that again?
10 MR. SANGER: Sure.
11 Q. This is Mr. Jackson’s home, right?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. And so you were not -- not only not required
14 to, but you were really not supposed to write down
15 Mr. Jackson comes and goes and log him in like
16 somebody else; is that right?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Okay. You saw what you thought said, “Owner
19 and guest,” may have said, “Owner and guest,” you’re
20 not sure --
21 A. No.
22 Q. -- but it would not be typical for you to
23 write down “Owner”?
24 A. I’ve never done it. The whole time I was
25 there, I’d never done it.
26 Q. That’s fine. And it does -- it looks like
27 it says, “Guest.”
28 A. Yes. 7092
1 Q. All right. It doesn’t say who the guests
2 are?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And that’s somewhat unusual, isn’t it?
5 A. If someone had come in with Mr. Jackson, we
6 don’t routinely stop his vehicle and look in his
7 vehicle. Again, it’s privacy for him. We try to
8 bother him as little as possible.
9 So if someone had -- if that is “Owner and
10 guest” and someone had come with him, we would not
11 have just stopped his vehicle and, for the most
12 part, asked who was in there, unless we really felt
13 it was necessary.
14 MR. SANGER: Do you want to leave that on?
15 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Yeah.
16 MR. SANGER: Okay. All right. I won’t put
17 it here. I’ll --
18 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Yeah, that’s fine.
19 Q. BY MR. SANGER: I want to see if we can
20 reconstruct this a little bit. Where it just says,
21 “Guests,” there are no names?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. So does that suggest to you that those
24 guests were probably in a vehicle with Mr. Jackson?
25 A. It could have -- yes, it could have been.
26 Q. All right. And now we’re going to go to --
27 and I’m sorry, that was on 2-6, February 6, 2003,
28 correct? I’ll put it up again if you want. 7093
1 A. Yes. That’s correct.
2 Q. All right. February 6th, 2003.
3 Do you know if Mr. Jackson was returning
4 from Miami that night?
5 A. I don’t know.
6 Q. Okay. All right. And you’re welcome to
7 look at this whole exhibit, if you want me to bring
8 the book down so you can see it, if you feel you
9 need to look at the pages in order or anything,
10 okay?
11 I’m going to put up 2-7-03, which is
12 MJ00120. And that is still a part of Exhibit 334,
13 okay? And you can see we’re referring to the “120”
14 down there on the bottom, just so we’re all
15 oriented. That’s what we call the Bates stamp
16 number.
17 This is for 2-7-03; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right. Now, if you look at the
20 guests -- and I’m going to bring it a little closer
21 and give everybody a headache, all right? If you
22 look at the “Guests,” it appears that there’s an
23 M. Nicole Cascio --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- who stayed overnight; is that right?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And it looks like a Dr. Farshshian stayed
28 overnight; is that correct? 7094
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Actually, I’m going backwards. He’s at the
3 top of that list, right?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. It looks like he left at 8:30 in the
6 morning, right?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. And then he may have come back at 10:15?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. So let’s go down to -- to “Marie
11 Nicole,” or it says, “M,” something, Nicole Cascio.”
12 You assume that’s Marie Nicole?
13 A. Yes, uh-huh.
14 Q. So -- it says stayed over or carried over,
15 so that would tell you she stayed overnight; is that
16 right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now that you think about that in conjunction
19 with the whatever-it-was “and guests,” does that
20 suggest that Marie Nicole Cascio was probably one of
21 the guests that came in the day before?
22 A. Do you have the other pages for this?
23 Q. I have --
24 A. There’s usually like three pages per day.
25 Q. Yes. Yes. You’re welcome to look at them.
26 We have to be careful because we’ve got the book
27 apart, and I want to put it back. So we have to
28 keep it in the same order here. 7095
1 Before I do, I’ll let you see the whole
2 thing, but it’s safe to say you’ve got Gavin Arvizo,
3 Star Arvizo, looks like “Daviella” now, Arvizo, Aldo
4 Cascio, and Mom Arvizo, right?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And those are all carry-overs. So that
7 would mean, to you, that they were there --
8 A. The night before.
9 Q. -- the night before?
10 A. Prior to midnight of that day.
11 Q. Of this day, which was 2-7 --
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. -- 03.
14 Okay. And it also appears that they then
15 continued to stay overnight on the 7th; is that
16 right?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. SANGER: Okay. So now having said that,
19 if it’s all right with the Court, I’ll approach with
20 the book so that the witness can see everything in
21 context.
22 Q. And I’ll just speak loud for a moment, if I
23 can.
24 The pages are in the exact order of the
25 exhibit, so keep them in that same order, if you
26 would.
27 A. Yes.
28 At some point they came in on the 6th and 7096
1 were there on the 7th.
2 Q. All right. And as you look at that --
3 before I come up and retrieve it, as you look at
4 that, there’s no specific record where those
5 particular individuals, that is, the Cascios and the
6 Arvizos, were logged in by name as coming in.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Other than perhaps just that reference to
9 “Owner and guest,” or whatever it says; is that
10 correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 MR. SANGER: All right. May I approach to
13 retrieve the book, Your Honor?
14 THE COURT: Yes.
15 MR. SANGER: Okay. Thank you, sir.
16 Q. Now, I’m going to go to page 121 of the same
17 exhibit. It will still be 334 until further notice,
18 if that’s all right.
19 So it’s -- it says 121, MJ00121 at the
20 bottom. And then this is -- at the top, rather than
21 “Guest,” there are a number of people who are listed
22 there. And this is -- there’s no date at the bottom
23 of this, correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. So you need to try to ascertain the date by
26 figuring out where it falls within the context of
27 the other documents, right?
28 A. Correct. The -- it would have been, again, 7097
1 with at least one, most likely two other pieces of
2 paper that -- gate logs.
3 Q. All right. And for the purpose of -- well,
4 I’ll withdraw that.
5 This shows that at the ranch, there were
6 quite a number of people; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And it says, “CBS Entertainment” there; is
9 that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, it appears that on that list -- I won’t
12 read them all, but on that list is “Ed Bradley”;
13 is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Are you familiar with Ed Bradley of CBS?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And Jack Sussman, is he a producer at CBS?
18 You don’t know?
19 A. I have no idea.
20 Q. That’s okay. There are a number of other
21 people associated with CBS there, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And it indicates that all the people
24 associated with CBS, at least down to the point that
25 it’s recorded -- let me withdraw that.
26 It looks like Jack Sussman arrived at 9:40;
27 is that right?
28 A. Yes. 7098
1 Q. Doesn’t show that he was checked out?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. We assume he’s not still there.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. You got Ed Bradley. Can you read
6 that?
7 A. Yes. The times?
8 Q. Yeah, the times.
9 A. 10:30 to -- it’s either 18 or 1900. So
10 6 or 7 p.m.
11 Q. And then the rest of them are 10:30 to
12 7 p.m., is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. 10:30 to 7 p.m.
15 Were you on duty that day?
16 A. I don’t know.
17 Q. Do you remember there being a large group of
18 people?
19 A. I don’t remember being there when CBS was
20 there.
21 Q. All right. That’s fair enough.
22 All right. Now we go to page 123, which is
23 dated -- by that I mean MJ00123, which is dated
24 2-9-03, correct?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And here we show on the 9th of February,
27 2003, that you have Gavin Arvizo, Star Arvizo,
28 Davellin Arvizo. It shows they were all -- if you 7099
1 just look at those entries, they were all carried
2 over from the night before?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. And then it shows that they left at about
5 1:30 --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- and apparently left with the person right
8 before there, whose name is, oh, Marie Nicole.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That says “Marie Nicole” right above “Gavin
11 Arvizo”?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So they all left at 1:30. Doesn’t tell you
14 where they went; is that correct?
15 A. That’s correct.
16 Q. And then they came back at 4:15 in the
17 afternoon?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. It does appear that there are two other
20 people down at the bottom, Anna Ruiz and looks like
21 Silvana Ruiz. Do you see those?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Looks like they left at 1330, which is 1:30,
24 and came back at 4:15, right?
25 A. Correct.
26 Q. And it says “limo” there. Does that mean
27 they went by limo?
28 A. Yes. 7100
1 Q. And you don’t know how the Arvizos traveled
2 on that occasion, do you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You would assume that somebody gave them a
5 ride, though?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. And then it shows next they’re
8 carried over -- that being the Arvizos -- they’re
9 carried over. They stayed overnight; is that
10 correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And then we have page MJ00126, which shows
13 2-10-03, correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And here we see the Arvizos and Marie Nicole
16 staying overnight; is that correct?
17 A. That’s correct.
18 Q. And it shows there “Mrs. Arvizo,” as well,
19 under “Anna Ruiz,” correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And it appears that they stayed overnight.
22 Not only were they overnight the night before, but
23 they’re staying overnight the next night; is that
24 correct?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. So that’s the 10th.
27 Now, did the -- did the procedures change at
28 some point to where you would start logging in where 7101
1 people were staying at the ranch?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. I want to show you 2-11-03,
4 which is 00129, Bates stamp number 129. Okay,
5 2-11-03, correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And here on 2-11 -- oops, sorry -- it
8 appears that Dieter Weizner was staying in Guest
9 Unit No. 4.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And he stayed overnight?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. If you go down to the next, it shows Janet
14 Arvizo.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right. I’m sorry, when I said “the
17 next,” I meant to say skip one. It goes down to
18 Janet Arvizo, Guest Unit No. 2.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Stayed overnight, or she was staying
21 overnight, correct, from the night before?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. But on this day, and again, “this day” being
24 February the 11th, then Arvizo leaves at 5:04 in the
25 afternoon, correct?
26 A. Correct.
27 Q. And she comes back at three minutes to 8:00?
28 A. Correct. 7102
1 Q. Okay. It shows, “Gavin and Star, house”?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That means they’re staying at the house,
4 according to this?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And then it shows -- now, what does that say
7 now?
8 A. It looks like “Daniella.”
9 Q. Okay. Seems this name changes continuously.
10 But anyway, whoever that is, D. Arvizo, whatever it
11 says there, is staying in Unit No. 2; is that
12 correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And then Marie Nicole is staying in the doll
15 room, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That’s in the house?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And Aldo, her brother, is staying in the
20 house; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, Ronald Konitzer is there in Unit No. 1,
23 correct --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- is that right?
26 And his wife and two children are also
27 staying there at the ranch in Unit No. 1; is that
28 correct? 7103
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, Units 1, 2, 3 and 4 are the four guest
3 units that are right by the lake; is that correct?
4 A. That’s correct.
5 Q. And they’re just across the front --
6 A. Grass.
7 Q. Yeah, the front entrance.
8 A. The driveway.
9 Q. The driveway for the entry of the house.
10 They’re right across from the front of the house in
11 a building that has four units in it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. So according to this, Ronald
14 Konitzer, his wife and children, are staying in 1.
15 Davellin’s in 2 with Janet. And there are these
16 other two people. Dieter’s in 4. And this Mark
17 Lester, whoever that is, is in 3, right?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. Now, excuse me one second. I think it got
20 cut off here. Hold on.
21 Yeah, okay. On this -- at the bottom here,
22 same page, we’re still on 129 for February 11th,
23 ‘03, at the very bottom, you have “Ranch Vehicles,”
24 right?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And I’m going to direct your attention to
27 the one just before the bottom. It says “Katie,”
28 and it’s kind of cut off, but it’s Katie Bernard; is 7104
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know who Katie Bernard is?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Who is she?
6 A. She’s a secretary for the ranch.
7 Q. Works at the ranch?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is she a nice person?
10 A. Very nice.
11 Q. It says, “Black van,” right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And what is the black van?
14 A. Black van. It would be the -- it’s a ranch
15 vehicle that usually Gary drives.
16 Q. Okay. So it’s a vehicle that’s used to
17 drive people places, if the guests want to go to
18 town or do something else, or go to the airport or
19 whatever, it can be used for that, correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. Now, it looks like Katie Bernard
22 checks the black van out and then she leaves at four
23 minutes -- at 5:04; is that correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. So it appears that she is taking Janet
26 Arvizo off the ranch, correct?
27 A. They at least left at the same time.
28 Q. If it’s down to the minute, they’re either 7105
1 right in the same car or one right behind the other.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. But usually it’s the same car, right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It would be 1705 by the time you get to the
6 next car, probably, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, it looks like Katie Bernard was gone
9 long enough to, say, go to town, drop somebody off
10 and come back, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. Now we go to 2-12. And this is
13 page 132, 00132, and it shows February the 12th,
14 2003; is that correct?
15 A. That’s correct.
16 Q. All right. Now, here, let’s start with the
17 guests. And I take it -- I think it’s obvious to
18 everybody, the Xerox machine evidently cut off the
19 edge of the page there, correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Here it appears that there are a number of
22 guests overnight, including Gavin, Star, and
23 Davellin, however her name is spelled, all right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. We’ll call her Davellin, all right?
26 A. Okay.
27 Q. It appears that they stayed overnight,
28 correct? 7106
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And then it appears -- and Janet as well,
3 correct? It says Janet, Gavin, Star, Davellin?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. They all stayed overnight, and then they all
6 left at 1:38 in the morning; is that right?
7 A. That’s right.
8 Q. So when they went to the gate, whoever was
9 driving them stopped the vehicle and said, “We’re
10 leaving. And we have Janet, Gavin, Star and
11 Davellin here,” correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So the person at the gate, the guard at the
14 gate, could check all these people out at that date?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. There was no secret spiriting of people
17 away. This was checking right out at the gate?
18 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; argumentative.
19 MR. SANGER: That probably was. I’ll
20 withdraw it.
21 THE COURT: All right. I’ll sustain the
22 objection.
23 MR. SANGER: There we go.
24 Q. In other words, this is done according to
25 procedure. A car comes up; the driver identifies
26 the people in the car?
27 A. Either the driver or the security officer.
28 Q. Or the security officer looks in and sees 7107
1 who it is, and he opens the gate and they go, right?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. All right. If you look at the bottom here,
4 we also have something that says, “Salas,” and it
5 just says, “u-s Salas,” but your bet would be that’s
6 “Jesus Salas,” correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Just got cut off by the Xerox machine.
9 And he checks out the Rolls Royce, right?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Do you know what kind of Rolls Royce that
12 is?
13 A. I don’t know which one exactly that is.
14 There was a couple. They were older.
15 Q. Nice car?
16 A. Nice, yes.
17 Q. Nice car, all right. And he checked it out
18 according to the ranch procedures, correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And he checks out -- it goes out at 1:38,
21 correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. He does whatever he does, and he gets back,
24 in the Rolls Royce, by 9:08 in the morning, correct?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Now, Gary Hearn was there. He’s a driver,
27 correct?
28 A. Yes. 7108
1 Q. And he was staying overnight; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. I think I’m going to go to 135. Hold
4 on one second. Excuse me, Your Honor. I’m sorry.
5 Let me skip ahead a little bit.
6 Okay. I’m going to go to 149. Show the
7 bottom first. 149.
8 Now, it says 2-17 through 2-26-03. Is that
9 a typical way to do this?
10 A. It has -- I’ve seen it done. I think it
11 says 2-20, but --
12 Q. 2-20, you’re right, I’m sorry. 2-17 through
13 2-20?
14 A. The reason we would do something like this
15 would be if we knew we were going to have guests for
16 a certain period of time.
17 Q. So you have here -- and let me do this,
18 first of all, so we can see it, and then I’ll focus
19 in a little better for you.
20 At the top where it says -- ordinarily you’d
21 put your service people and whatnot up there, that’s
22 crossed out and it just says, “Guest List” and the
23 whole page is used for “Guest List”?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Down through the first two parts of it, in
26 any event; is that right?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And on the guest list -- let me see if we 7109
1 can get closer and read it.
2 Can you find the one that I did?
3 MS. YU: Yeah.
4 MR. SANGER: Let me borrow that.
5 Q. 2-17 through 2-20, it shows -- well, it
6 looks like Davidia Arvizo was staying overnight, had
7 been staying overnight; is that correct?
8 A. Stayed overnight at least once.
9 Q. All right. And then it shows “out” at 1951;
10 is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know what day she left at 1951, 7:51
13 in the evening?
14 A. No.
15 Q. All right. And then you have Gavin is also
16 staying overnight and leaves at 1951, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you have Janet, who leaves at 2145?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And then, again, Star is 1951?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And here it shows that the Arvizos are
23 staying -- it says --
24 A. I would assume it’s “Dance Studio.”
25 Q. Staying at the dance studio?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. All right. And it shows the Cascios, Aldo
28 and Marie Nicole, are staying at the main house; is 7110
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then there’s a number of other people
4 there who are staying in the guest units down there.
5 We don’t have to go through all of the names, but I
6 see Ann Konitzer and kids is in one.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. With Ronald Konitzer?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And there are other people staying in the
11 other units, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Now, if we go to MJ00151, it says
14 2-18. And it doesn’t show all those guests that you
15 showed -- I’m sorry, it does not show all the guests
16 that were shown on page 149 that we just looked at;
17 is that right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. So since the other one said 2-17 through
20 2-20, you would assume that some or all of those
21 people were continuing to stay overnight; is that
22 correct?
23 A. Yes. We most likely had that one that you
24 just showed without the guests, we had that for
25 every day --
26 Q. Okay.
27 A. -- up through that period, because we would
28 still need to have written down somewhere where 7111
1 those people, or general deliveries, contractors or
2 whatever, were still coming in.
3 Q. If we go to 155, which is for 2-19, it
4 doesn’t show all those other guests that were
5 listed, correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. But it does show some new guests, for
8 instance, fan club people there?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Who apparently came onto the ranch for a
11 while; is that correct?
12 A. For the day, it looks like.
13 Q. Okay. Now, I’m going to go to 2-20-03,
14 which is 157. And again, if you want to look at any
15 of the pages in between, you’re welcome to do it.
16 I’m trying to pick out the ones that count here, but
17 you can look at anything you want.
18 So this is 2-20-03, and this shows guests as
19 of 2-20. It shows Aja Pryor coming in at 1420
20 hours.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Along with Dustin Tucker. Is that her son?
23 A. I don’t know.
24 Q. Okay. Aja Pryor is Chris Tucker’s
25 girlfriend? Or you don’t --
26 A. I have no idea.
27 Q. Okay. Do you know who Aja Pryor is at all?
28 A. No. 7112
Subject: April 20, 2005 
Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:12 am
