5157
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
5
6
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
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15
16
17 REPORTER’S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
18
19 THURSDAY, APRIL 7, 2005
20
21 8:30 A.M.
22
23 (PAGES 5157 THROUGH 5211)
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27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 5157
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
9
10
11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A.
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067
14 -and-
15 SANGER & SWYSEN
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C
17 Santa Barbara, California 93101
18 -and-
19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ.
20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs, California 90670
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28 5158
1 I N D E X
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3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Nicola is listed as “N” on index. Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index.
6 Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index. Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index.
7 Mr. Oxman is listed as “O” on index.
8
9 PLAINTIFF’S
10 WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
11 CHACON, Ralph 5161-SN 5202-M
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28 5159
1 E X H I B I T S
2 FOR IN
3 PLAINTIFF’S NO. DESCRIPTION I.D. EVID.
4 790 Photograph 5177 5180
5 791 Photograph 5177 5180
6 792 Photograph 5177 5180
7 793 Photograph 5184 5186
8 794 Photograph 5184 5186
9 795 Photograph 5184 5186
10 796 Photograph 5196 5197
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28 5160
1 Santa Maria, California
2 Thursday, April 7, 2005
3 8:30 a.m.
4
5 THE COURT: Good morning.
6 THE JURY: (In unison) Good morning.
7 COUNSEL AT COUNSEL TABLE: (In unison)
8 Good morning, Your Honor.
9 THE COURT: Counsel, you may proceed.
10 MR. SNEDDON: Mr. Chacon, would you come
11 forward, please. Right up there.
12 THE COURT: When you get to the witness
13 stand, please remain standing. Face the clerk and
14 raise your right hand.
15
16 RALPH CHACON
17 Having been sworn, testified as follows:
18
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma’am.
20 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and
21 spell your name for the record.
22 THE WITNESS: Ralph Chacon, C-h-a-c-o-n.
23
24 DIRECT EXAMINATION
25 BY MR. SNEDDON:
26 Q. Mr. Chacon, in order for everybody to hear
27 you, you’re going to need to lean into that
28 microphone, okay? Would you do that for us? 5161
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 Mr. Chacon, did you used to work at
4 Neverland Valley Ranch?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. During what period of time?
7 A. Between ‘91 and ‘94.
8 Q. And prior to working at Neverland Valley
9 Ranch, where -- what employment did you have?
10 A. I used to repo vehicles in Thousand Oaks.
11 Q. Is that where you’re from, Thousand Oaks?
12 A. Born and raised, yes, sir.
13 Q. And during the time that you were at
14 Neverland Valley Ranch, what was your position?
15 A. Security.
16 Q. And could you describe to the ladies and
17 gentlemen of the jury generally what your
18 responsibilities were as a security officer?
19 A. Secure Neverland property, front gate, fence
20 lines, around the main house, keeping intruders out,
21 and also taking care of the temperatures in the
22 animal areas.
23 Q. What shift did you work at the ranch?
24 A. Graveyard.
25 Q. Would you tell us what “graveyard,” what
26 that entails? What are the hours?
27 A. From 10:00 till 6:00 in the morning.
28 Q. Now, do you recall a time when you were 5162
1 working at the Neverland Valley Ranch in which Mr.
2 Jackson was the subject of an investigation?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. And what years was that; do you recall?
5 A. I really don’t. I don’t recall.
6 Q. During the time that you were at the ranch,
7 did you get subpoenaed to appear before the Santa
8 Barbara County Grand Jury?
9 A. Yes, sir, I did.
10 Q. Do you recall when that was?
11 A. I believe it was in ‘94.
12 Q. Do you recall the month?
13 A. I’m guessing, could be probably May or
14 something around there. I’m not sure.
15 Q. And do you know an individual by the name of
16 Kassim Abdool?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Who is Kassim Abdool?
19 A. He was at that time chief of security at
20 Neverland.
21 Q. And at the time that you were subpoenaed
22 before the grand jury, were you and Mr. Abdool
23 carpooling back and forth to work?
24 A. Yes, sir, we were.
25 Q. And how long had you known Mr. Abdool?
26 A. Probably the duration of our employment at
27 Neverland. Probably about three years. Three, four
28 years. Something like that. 5163
1 Q. And to your knowledge, did Mr. Abdool also
2 get subpoenaed to appear before the grand jury?
3 A. Yes, sir, he did.
4 Q. And do you recall where you were directed to
5 appear, which county?
6 A. Supposed to be in Los Angeles County. But I
7 didn’t go to Los Angeles County.
8 Q. At some time prior to appearing before the
9 grand jury, pursuant to subpoena, were you contacted
10 by attorneys representing Mr. Jackson?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. On how many occasions?
13 A. I can remember two occasions that I was
14 called to come before them.
15 Q. And do you recall who those attorneys were?
16 A. Mr. Steve Cochran, I believe, and I remember
17 an Eric Mason. Mr. Sanger.
18 Q. Do you recall where the first meeting
19 occurred?
20 A. It happened in Mr. Jackson’s outside office
21 at Neverland.
22 Q. And do you recall when the second meeting
23 occurred?
24 A. It happened in Santa Barbara at Mr. Sanger’s
25 office.
26 Q. And were both of these meetings prior to the
27 time you were to appear before the grand jury, your
28 subpoena date? 5164
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Now, as a result of the receiving a subpoena
3 to the grand jury, did you make contact with law
4 enforcement?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. And do you recall who it was you contacted?
7 A. I believe it was Mr. Birchim.
8 Q. And do you recall what agency Mr. Birchim
9 worked for?
10 A. I believe it was the sheriff -- Santa
11 Barbara Sheriff’s Department.
12 Q. And when you -- I’m sorry. When you
13 contacted Mr. Birchim, did you have a conversation
14 with him?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. And did you relay to him certain
17 information?
18 A. I did.
19 Q. And after that, did you have contact with
20 any other -- was there more than one meeting with
21 Mr. Birchim?
22 A. I’m sure there was, but I don’t remember.
23 But I know there was more than two meetings with
24 him.
25 Q. Now, you told the ladies and gentlemen of
26 the jury that you did not appear before the Los
27 Angeles County Grand Jury. Did you at some time
28 make a statement under oath with regard to what you 5165
1 observed?
2 A. Yes, sir, I did.
3 Q. And do you recall when that was?
4 A. I believe it was ‘94. I’m not for certain.
5 It’s been a while.
6 Q. Do you recall whether it was at or about the
7 time when you were supposed to appear before the
8 grand jury?
9 A. Oh. Yes, sir. It was probably the day
10 after.
11 Q. And do you recall where it was that you were
12 interviewed?
13 A. In Santa Barbara.
14 Q. And do you recall who was present during the
15 time that you were interviewed?
16 A. Well, the only ones that I remember is
17 yourself and Mr. Birchim.
18 Q. And was that statement given under oath?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Now, during the time that you were employed
21 at Neverland Ranch, did you personally observe
22 anything that you felt was inappropriate with regard
23 to Mr. Jackson’s behavior --
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. -- or conduct?
26 And do you recall approximately what year
27 that was?
28 A. I want to say latter ‘92 or early ‘93. I am 5166
1 not -- I’m not positive.
2 Q. Do you recall what time of day or night it
3 was?
4 A. It was -- well, I had come on graveyard
5 shift, so it had to have been about probably
6 midnight, or before midnight.
7 Q. And do you recall what the weather was like
8 that night?
9 A. It was very nice. Very nice weather.
10 Q. Now, when you first came to work that
11 evening, what were the first things that you did; do
12 you recall?
13 A. I would come in and check out the radio. We
14 carried radios and a flashlight. I would check my
15 box for any memos that were generated. Then I
16 would -- we had -- there was electric golf carts
17 that we had to put on chargers for the night.
18 Q. At some time that evening, did you see Mr.
19 Jackson?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. And do you recall where Mr. Jackson was the
22 first time that you saw him that evening?
23 A. He was headed for the Jacuzzi.
24 Q. And do you know whether or not he was alone
25 or with someone?
26 A. He was with someone.
27 Q. And when you say he was with someone, do you
28 know who that was? 5167
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Who was that?
3 A. That was Jordie.
4 Q. And could you approximate the age of Jordie?
5 A. I want to say nine, ten years old.
6 Q. So he was with a child?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Not an adult?
9 A. No.
10 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
11 THE COURT: Overruled. Next question.
12 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Now, I may have missed this
13 or I may have asked this. When you say you saw Mr.
14 Jackson in the company of this child, Jordie, what
15 direction were they headed?
16 A. Towards the Jacuzzi.
17 Q. Is that an area near where you were putting
18 things away?
19 A. It was close by. But from the area where I
20 was at, the garage area, I had -- I had gone to the
21 barbecue area, which was close, maybe ten feet, to
22 the Jacuzzi.
23 Q. And did you -- were you able to see Mr.
24 Jackson and the child in the Jacuzzi?
25 A. I couldn’t see them from where I was
26 standing, but I could hear them in the water.
27 Q. Now, at some point, did you hear Mr. Jackson
28 speak out? 5168
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. And what --
3 Your Honor, this is not offered for the
4 truth of the matter, but simply to explain the
5 conduct that occurs thereafter?
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: What did you hear Mr.
8 Jackson say?
9 A. While in the Jacuzzi?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. They were just -- just laughing, playing. I
12 don’t remember what they were saying, but I know
13 that they were talking and having fun.
14 Q. At some time did Mr. Jackson request
15 something from the house?
16 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
17 THE WITNESS: That was before --
18 THE COURT: Just a moment.
19 MR. SNEDDON: You have to wait for the Judge
20 to rule, I’m sorry.
21 THE WITNESS: I’m sorry.
22 THE COURT: Overruled.
23 You may answer.
24 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Okay. Now you can answer.
25 THE COURT: Do you want the question read
26 back?
27 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
28 Well, actually, that was -- I heard them -- 5169
1 I heard him when I was still hooking up the golf
2 carts. He had called for security.
3 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; nonresponsive.
4 THE COURT: Sustained.
5 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Okay. So at some point you
6 heard Mr. Jackson yell for security?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. And where were you when that occurred?
9 A. I was in the garage area.
10 Q. Now, at some point that evening, did you see
11 Mr. Jackson and the child, Jordie, leave the
12 Jacuzzi?
13 A. Yes, sir, I did.
14 Q. Could you tell the ladies and gentlemen of
15 the jury, were you able to observe where they went?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. And where did they go?
18 A. They were going to the outside rest room
19 area by the rec room.
20 Q. And is the rec room near another building or
21 attached to a building on the premises?
22 A. Well, it’s on its -- the rest room’s
23 attached to the rec room. So it sits by itself.
24 It’s two stories.
25 Q. All right. Are there other facilities
26 inside of that building itself?
27 A. Just a game room, that’s all it was.
28 Q. Do you know what the game room is called? 5170
1 A. Just -- no, I don’t.
2 Q. Describe the game room, if you would.
3 A. They had, like, probably maybe 20 different
4 type of computer games, the first floor, and also
5 with the top, the top floor had different type of
6 games.
7 Q. Have you been in that building before?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. And do you know whether or not that building
10 has a cellar?
11 A. A what, sir?
12 Q. A cellar?
13 A. Um, I want to say that had a wine cellar,
14 yes, sir.
15 Q. All right. In any event, you saw Mr.
16 Jackson and the child heading towards the rest room
17 area; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Did you watch them the entire time?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. And did you see where they went?
22 A. They went inside the rest room.
23 Q. Now, where were you located when you
24 observed this?
25 A. I was in the barbecue area, where I usually
26 normally observe everything.
27 Q. That’s a security position you’re assigned?
28 A. Yes, sir. 5171
1 Q. Now, at the time that you saw Mr. Jackson
2 and the boy go into the rest room area, did you at
3 some point in time approach the rest room?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Do you recall from the time that you saw
6 Mr. Jackson and the child go into the rest room
7 area, how long it was before you approached the
8 area?
9 A. Probably a half an hour, maybe 35, 40
10 minutes.
11 Q. And then could you describe to the ladies
12 and gentlemen of the jury where you went?
13 A. I went around the rec room that leads right
14 behind the rest rooms. That’s where I went.
15 Q. And what did you do when you got there?
16 Well, when you got in that area, did you hear or see
17 anything?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. And which?
20 A. Well, I heard first that Mr. Jackson and the
21 boy were inside a shower, the shower room in there.
22 Q. How many showers are there in the rest room?
23 A. There was only one shower.
24 Q. Let’s just stop right there for just a
25 second, before we go any further. Could you explain
26 to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury the interior
27 of the rest room area?
28 A. As you go in from the rec room, the women’s 5172
1 rest room is on the left and the men’s room is on
2 the right. And as you go in, there’s a dressing
3 area, and it’s open, and it leads into where the
4 wash basins are at, pretty large area. And then it
5 goes into another smaller room where there’s a
6 toilet and the showers.
7 Q. And you said “showers.”
8 A. Shower. Excuse me, shower.
9 Q. All right. Now, you’ve indicated that you
10 heard some people in the shower. Did you recognize
11 the voices?
12 A. Yes, sir, I did.
13 Q. Whose voices did you recognize?
14 A. Mr. Jackson’s and Jordie’s.
15 Q. And did you look into the shower area?
16 A. Not right away. Not the first time that I
17 came around, because I couldn’t see anything. But I
18 started to leave the area when I -- I was thinking,
19 I said, “What’s going on here?” You know, “There’s
20 a grown man in a shower with a boy.”
21 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; move to strike.
22 THE COURT: Stricken.
23 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. So you left?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. How far did you go?
26 A. I didn’t go too far, probably halfway around
27 the rec room.
28 Q. All right. And did you decide to go back? 5173
1 A. Yes, sir, I did.
2 Q. Why did you decide to go back?
3 A. I wanted to know what was going on in there.
4 Q. Why?
5 A. Because it wasn’t -- it wasn’t right.
6 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Relevance; move
7 to strike.
8 THE COURT: I’ll strike the question, “Why?”
9 And the answer.
10 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Okay. So you went back.
11 When you went back, where did you go to?
12 A. I went back to the same area where the
13 shower was located. There was a window, and I was
14 able to see and they were no longer in the shower.
15 Q. So you looked into the window?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. All right. And what did you see -- where
18 did you see Mr. Jackson and the child at this point?
19 A. I saw them standing in the nude in the
20 middle area, and Jordie was on the right, and he was
21 on the left side. Standing, facing each other.
22 Q. Now, at the time that you saw that, what
23 were the lighting conditions inside of the rest
24 room?
25 A. Oh, it was litted up, just that area there.
26 Not where the shower’s at, but that area, it was --
27 the lights were on.
28 Q. Did you have any difficulty seeing in there? 5174
1 A. Not at all, sir.
2 Q. Now, from the point outside looking down
3 inside, what did you see go on between the
4 defendant, Mr. Jackson, and Jordan Chandler?
5 A. I saw that Mr. Jackson was caressing the
6 boy’s hair, he was kissing him on his head, and his
7 face, his lips. He started kissing him on the
8 shoulders and started going down to his nipples.
9 Started sucking his nipples. Started going down to
10 his penis and putting it in his mouth. And about
11 that time I just -- I left.
12 Q. Okay. You say you saw him go down and do
13 what?
14 A. He put the little boy’s penis in his mouth.
15 Q. Did you actually see that?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. And then you left?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Where did you go?
20 A. I went back to the barbecue area.
21 Q. Do you recall, after you left that area and
22 observed the things you’ve just related to the jury,
23 did you see Mr. Jackson with the child again that
24 evening?
25 A. Yes, sir, I did.
26 Q. And where were you when you saw them?
27 A. I was in the barbecue area.
28 Q. And where -- where were they when you saw 5175
1 them again?
2 A. They were coming out of the rest room.
3 Q. Now, from the time that you had left, when
4 you had made your observations --
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. -- and you left, till the time that they
7 came out of the rest room, how much time had elapsed
8 during that period of time?
9 A. Probably 20 minutes or 30 minutes.
10 Q. Now, when they came out of the rest room,
11 could you describe what was going on?
12 A. Jordie was mounted on Michael’s back,
13 piggybacked, and they were headed for the back of
14 the -- the kitchen door to the main house.
15 Q. Did the child, Jordan, have any clothing on?
16 A. He had -- I believe it was like -- it was a
17 towel. I believe it was a towel. It’s the type --
18 like it’s a rope, but it’s a towel.
19 Q. So a cloth robe or towel of some kind?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Okay. And what was Mr. Jackson wearing, if
22 you recall?
23 A. Same.
24 Q. Could you see whether or not the child,
25 Jordan, had any other clothing on or not?
26 A. No, sir. I didn’t observe.
27 Q. And where did they go?
28 A. They went inside the house, the main house. 5176
1 Q. And when they went inside the main house,
2 did you hear or observe anything happen that you
3 felt was unusual?
4 A. Yes, Mr. Jackson double-locked the door, the
5 back door, which he normally never did. Security
6 always went inside to secure the house inside and
7 out.
8 Q. Now, you say -- you described to the jury
9 that Mr. Jackson was kissing the boy --
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. -- that you observed.
12 How would you describe the kissing?
13 A. Well, it was very passionate. Very
14 passionately he was kissing him.
15 Q. And did you see his hands during the time he
16 was kissing him?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Where were they?
19 A. They were all over his body.
20 Q. All right. I want to show you a couple of
21 photographs, if we might, Mr. Chacon.
22 I’ve shown these to counsel, Your Honor.
23 The photographs are 790, 791, and 792.
24 All right. Mr. Chacon, let’s look at the
25 photographs. First of all, let’s start with 790.
26 Do you recognize that?
27 A. 790?
28 Q. Yeah. I’m sorry, you have to turn it over 5177
1 on the back.
2 A. Oh, yes, sir.
3 Q. All right. Let’s start with that. Do you
4 recognize what’s depicted in the photograph, 790?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. And what is that?
7 A. That’s where the swimming pool’s at, and
8 it’s -- you’re facing at the rec room in front of
9 you, and to the left is the garage area where the
10 carts -- where I was hooking up the carts.
11 Q. Does that photograph depict a portion or
12 some of the route that you took where you walked to
13 the area that you observed Mr. Jackson and the
14 child, Jordan?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Now, what I’d like you to do is to please
17 take that black felt tip pen that I’ve given you
18 there, and would you please just draw the path that
19 you took that’s covered by that photograph, that
20 portion of it.
21 And does that photograph accurately depict
22 the area of what you call the rec room at the time
23 that you made the observations of Mr. Jackson and
24 the child, Jordan?
25 A. Yes, sir.
26 Q. All right. Let’s turn that one over and go
27 to the next one that has “791” on it, okay? Do you
28 recognize that? 5178
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. All right. What is 791?
3 A. It’s the pool area, and directly in front is
4 the rec room and the rest room. The rest rooms.
5 Q. Does the photograph, 791, show the area of
6 the entrance into the bathroom area?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. And does it show the Jacuzzi?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. And does it show the approximate area of
11 the -- where you made your observations?
12 A. Well, it’s behind the -- just the other side
13 of the Jacuzzi, yes, sir.
14 Q. Okay. With regard to that particular
15 photograph -- and I’m going to ask you, does it
16 accurately depict the area as you recall it in 1992
17 or ‘93 when you made your observations?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. All right. I’m going to ask you, please,
20 take that black marker, please, and if you would
21 just circle the area that depicts the entrance into
22 the rest room area?
23 And would you please put an “X” in the
24 approximate area where it was that you made the
25 observations of Mr. Jackson and the child?
26 Now, let’s take the last photograph, which
27 is 792 for identification purposes. Do you
28 recognize that photograph? 5179
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. And can you tell the jury what that is,
3 please?
4 A. It’s the barbecue area.
5 Q. Okay. Now, is that the area that you have
6 made reference to in your testimony?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. And does that photograph accurately depict
9 that area as it was back when you were working at
10 Neverland Valley Ranch?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I move that 790,
13 791, and 792 be admitted into evidence.
14 MR. MESEREAU: No objection.
15 THE COURT: They’re admitted.
16 MR. SNEDDON: And, Your Honor, could we have
17 the input for the Elmo, please?
18 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: This is a laser and I’m
19 going to ask you to point to some things.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. All right. This is the exhibit that’s been
22 marked as Exhibit 790 for identification purposes,
23 all right? Do you recognize that, Mr. Chacon?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Would you show the jury the black line that
26 you placed on this particular exhibit?
27 Okay. It starts at the left-hand side of
28 the photograph; is that correct? 5180
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. And moves - go ahead, just trace it - all
3 the way to almost the right-hand side -- or the
4 left-hand side of the building, correct?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of
7 the jury, as you walk down past the side of that
8 building that’s depicted in the far right-hand side
9 of the photograph, People’s 790, what is down there?
10 A. There is a tennis court. It’s a sunken
11 tennis court.
12 Q. And what are the lighting conditions? Is
13 there a path that goes along there?
14 A. Yes, sir, there is.
15 Q. What are the lighting conditions along that
16 path?
17 A. Around the back, there wasn’t.
18 Q. How about along the path itself?
19 A. Towards the -- behind the rest rooms, there
20 was a path where there was just small little lights
21 on the ground.
22 Q. Now, did you have a flashlight with you that
23 night?
24 A. Yes sir.
25 Q. Is that part of your standard equipment --
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. -- that you carry on the graveyard shift?
28 A. Yes, sir. 5181
1 Q. The building that’s depicted on the far
2 right-hand side of the photograph - yes, sir, the
3 one you’re showing the jury there - what is that
4 building there?
5 A. That’s the rec room.
6 Q. And let’s go to 791, if we could.
7 All right. Would you show the ladies and
8 gentlemen of the jury, first of all, what you
9 referred to as a Jacuzzi?
10 A. Right here.
11 Q. So that’s in the lower left-hand corner of
12 the exhibit, 791?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Now, where is the entrance to the rest room?
15 A. Right in there.
16 Q. And it’s hard to see, but you drew a circle
17 around that in black?
18 A. Yes, sir. Right there.
19 Q. And now, where -- on this photograph, if you
20 can, can you show the approximate area of where it
21 was that you have made the observations you
22 described to the jury?
23 A. Well, this is the rest room in front, and on
24 the side, about right in there. The path is right
25 on the other side on the building there.
26 Q. On the back side of the building?
27 A. Yes, sir.
28 Q. Okay. Now, let’s show the next photograph 5182
1 and then I’ll come back to this.
2 This is 792 in evidence. Do you recognize
3 that?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. And what is that?
6 A. That’s the barbecue area.
7 Q. Okay. Now, with regard to this particular
8 photograph, where were you located in your position
9 as a security officer on this evening when you
10 observed the defendant and the child, Jordan, walk
11 into the rest room?
12 A. I was about right in that area.
13 Q. So you’re indicating to the right-hand side
14 of the barbecue area, just to the right of the post?
15 A. Right. Yes, sir.
16 Q. The post on the -- and were you behind the
17 barbecue itself or on the other side of it?
18 A. Well -- well, actually, I was like -- I was
19 moving up and down the side of it, on the other
20 side.
21 Q. On the outside of it?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. So not in the interior part, but --
24 A. Well, it was in the -- the interior is on
25 the other side also. Because this is in the center.
26 Q. Just so we can get it clarified, which side
27 of that were you on?
28 A. I was on -- I believe I was on that other 5183
1 side.
2 Q. Now, is the area of the -- let’s go back to
3 791 for a second, if we could. You pointed out the
4 Jacuzzi, and obviously there’s a swimming pool also
5 there.
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Now, with regard to that area, is that area
8 lit at night?
9 A. It is.
10 Q. Or was it then? Let’s put it that way.
11 A. Yeah, just a bit. Because the sidewalks had
12 these lights, these small lights, as you went up
13 through the path. And if I remember correctly, I
14 guess there was some -- some lighting, but not that
15 much. But you could see where you were walking,
16 though.
17 MR. SNEDDON: Okay. All right. You can
18 take that down.
19 I have three more photographs, I’ve shown
20 them to counsel, that have been marked as 793, 794,
21 and 795 for identification purposes. I’d like to
22 show them to the witness.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Mr. Chacon, I’m going to
25 show you the photograph marked as 793. You’ve seen
26 that photograph before?
27 A. Yes, sir.
28 Q. And do you recognize the person that you 5184
1 believe that that photograph depicts?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Who is that?
4 A. Jordie.
5 Q. Is that a depiction of the child as you
6 recall him back in those days?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. And with regard to 794, it has two
9 photographs on it, one at the top and one at the
10 bottom. The one at the top is a singular photograph
11 of an individual, and the one at the bottom has four
12 people in that. Do you recognize the people in that
13 photograph?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. And again, who is that?
16 A. Jordie.
17 Q. And in the photograph at the bottom, there
18 are a number of people depicted. Which of them do
19 you recognize as Jordie?
20 A. This one here.
21 Q. Would you please take that black pen and
22 just put an arrow towards -- start on the white,
23 down below. Okay. Thank you.
24 And with regard to 795, do you recognize
25 that?
26 A. Yes, sir.
27 Q. And again, there are a number of people
28 depicted in that photograph, correct? 5185
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. And do you recognize anybody in that
3 photograph?
4 A. Yes, sir, I do.
5 Q. Who would that be?
6 A. That’s Jordie.
7 Q. By “that” you mean who, in terms of --
8 there’s one, two, three, four, five people depicted.
9 A. The fifth one.
10 Q. All the way over to the left?
11 A. All the way over to the left.
12 Q. Are these accurate depictions of the child
13 as you recall him back in those days?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 MR. SNEDDON: Move that they be admitted
16 into evidence, Your Honor.
17 MR. MESEREAU: No objection.
18 THE COURT: Admitted.
19 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Now, Mr. Chacon, are you
20 familiar with a child by the name -- a young boy by
21 the name of Brett Barnes?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. And have you seen Mr. Barnes before?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Have you seen him at the ranch before?
26 A. Yes, sir.
27 Q. Have you seen him in the company of the
28 defendant before? 5186
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. On how many occasions?
3 A. Numerous occasions. I couldn’t give you a
4 figure.
5 Q. When Mr. Barnes was at the ranch, do you
6 recall whether or not his parents were with him?
7 A. At times they were; at other times they
8 weren’t.
9 Q. Now, with regard to the child you’ve
10 described and identified as Jordan Chandler, and the
11 child that you also saw as Brett Barnes, can you
12 tell us what they look like?
13 A. Well, to me, I always got them confused,
14 because they looked the same, similar. I know one
15 was a little bit shorter than the other. But, you
16 know, I always got them confused, but they looked --
17 they looked alike. Maybe one had hair a little bit
18 shorter than the other.
19 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
20 narrative.
21 THE COURT: Overruled.
22 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Go ahead.
23 A. But I would get them -- I would -- they just
24 looked the same to me.
25 MR. SNEDDON: All right. If we could have
26 the Elmo again.
27 Q. I’m going to start backwards at 795. Now,
28 would you use the -- thank you. 5187
1 That’s the child you identified by the name
2 of what?
3 A. Jordie.
4 Q. All right. And now 794. Let’s do the
5 bottom one for right now.
6 Now, the bottom one, you put an arrow; is
7 that correct?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Which is the child that you were identifying
10 that you recognize as Jordie.
11 Okay. The one in the middle of the
12 photograph?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In the front --
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. -- right?
17 And let’s -- let me ask a question about the
18 top photograph. With regard to that photograph, do
19 you recognize that person?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. All right. Who’s that?
22 A. That’s Jordie.
23 Q. Okay. And lastly, that’s 793 in evidence.
24 And you’ve identified that individual as also
25 Jordie, correct?
26 A. Yes, sir.
27 MR. SNEDDON: All right. Thank you. We
28 could have the lights again. 5188
1 Q. Now, during the time of your employment at
2 Neverland Valley Ranch -- let me go back a second,
3 okay?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. With regard to the incidents that you just
6 described to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury
7 here involving Mr. Jackson and the child you’ve
8 identified as Jordan, correct?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Are those -- is that -- is that what you
11 told the grand jury when you were interviewed back
12 in 1994?
13 A. Yes, sir, I did.
14 Q. Now, let’s go on for just a moment.
15 Did you see any other incidents involving
16 Mr. Jackson and the child you described as Jordan?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. With regard to the second -- and let’s just
19 call it the second incident. With regard to the
20 second incident, do you recall how much time had
21 elapsed between the two incidents?
22 A. I don’t recall, sir.
23 Q. Could you give us some idea whether it was
24 weeks, months, or years?
25 A. Could have been weeks. Could have been a
26 month. I’m not positive. It’s been a while.
27 Q. Okay. And let me go back just for one
28 second before we move on to the second incident. 5189
1 Was there another thing that occurred on the
2 evening of the incident where you saw Mr. Jackson
3 and the child, Jordan, in the rest room together
4 that you had to actually make a report on?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. And what was -- what was that?
7 A. Well --
8 Q. What happened?
9 A. Well, Kassim Abdool and myself, we were
10 going around the house, the back side of the house,
11 checking for anything that was open, the normal
12 security checkup that we would do around the house.
13 And we observed that the two French doors in the
14 middle of the house were wide open.
15 Q. And so a note was made of that to your
16 supervisor?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Who was your supervisor?
19 A. Lieutenant Wade. Kassim Abdool had written
20 a report in regards to the French doors being open
21 and we didn’t close them.
22 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; nonresponsive.
23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.
25 THE COURT: After “Lieutenant Wade” is
26 stricken.
27 MR. SNEDDON: Okay.
28 Q. So a report was prepared of that? 5190
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Now, the incident about the French doors
3 being open, was that before or after you had
4 observed Mr. Jackson?
5 A. After.
6 Q. It was later that evening?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. All right. Now we can move on.
9 On the second incident - we’re going to call
10 it the second incident just for purposes of - what
11 was it -- were you working graveyard again?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. And do you recall approximately what time of
14 the night it was?
15 A. It was in the evening, after ten o’clock
16 when I come on.
17 Q. Where were you?
18 A. I was in the pool area. Barbecue area, pool
19 area.
20 Q. And did you see Mr. Jackson that evening?
21 Let me go back. Did you see Jordan that evening?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. And the child you’ve identified as Brett,
24 did you see him that evening?
25 A. Yes, sir.
26 Q. Where were they?
27 A. They were in the rec room, playing with the
28 machines. 5191
1 Q. Was there any other children in the rec
2 room?
3 A. Yes, I noticed a little girl, probably five,
4 six years old. I didn’t know who she was, but I’m
5 sure she was probably a sister of one of the boys.
6 Q. And did you at some point become aware of
7 the fact -- let me ask you this. Prior -- when the
8 children were in the rec room playing, to your
9 knowledge, was Mr. Jackson on the premises?
10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. And did you become aware at some point in
12 time that Mr. Jackson was on the premises?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. And did you at some point see Mr. Jackson on
15 the premises?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. And where was Mr. Jackson the first time you
18 saw him?
19 A. He was coming out the back of his door --
20 the back door of his house, the main house.
21 Q. All right. And describe to the jury what
22 you observed Mr. Jackson to do.
23 A. He kind of ran up to the rec room, and he
24 was looking in from the outside, and he spotted
25 Jordie in one of those little -- it’s like a car you
26 play, a racing car. And Mr. Jackson went around the
27 area where the rest rooms were at. There’s a back
28 door that goes into the rec room, and he located 5192
1 Jordie back there, and he went to where Jordie was
2 at and --
3 Q. Let’s just stop right there for just a
4 second, okay? You saw him go into the rec room
5 through a back door entrance?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. At the time you saw him go up to Jordan,
8 where were the other children? Could you see?
9 A. Yeah, they were upstairs playing games.
10 Q. Were the lights on inside of the rec room?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Did you have any difficulty seeing in the
13 rec room?
14 A. Oh, no. No, sir.
15 Q. And where were you located at the time you
16 made these observations?
17 A. I was around the pool area, almost right
18 directly in front of the rec room.
19 Q. Now, at that point in time when you saw Mr.
20 Jackson go actually physically into the rec room,
21 describe to the jury what you saw occur.
22 A. Well, I saw him enter through the back door
23 of the rec room, and he went over to Jordie. He
24 bent over and said something to him, and then he
25 kissed him. And then they got out the back door and
26 they ran over to Mr. Jackson’s Moon Rover, and --
27 that was a golf cart that he had specially made for
28 himself, and they took off. 5193
1 Q. When you say he kissed him, did you see
2 where he kissed him?
3 A. Not exactly, but I know he kissed him.
4 Q. Now, at some point that evening, did you see
5 Mr. Jackson again?
6 A. Yes, sir. When they came back.
7 Q. When they came back. And where were you
8 when they came back?
9 A. I was in the barbecue area.
10 Q. And when they came back, where did they --
11 physically, where did you see them when you --
12 A. They pulled up to what they called the
13 breezeway, which is between the main office and the
14 main house, the outside office and the main house.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. Behind the back.
17 Q. And what did -- what -- was anybody else
18 present when they drove up?
19 A. Kassim Abdool was coming from the security
20 at that time also.
21 Q. So what did you see occur at that point in
22 time?
23 A. Well, I saw that Mr. Jackson and Brett --
24 I mean Jordie got off the cart. And Kassim noticed
25 that they were back, so he just headed back to the
26 security -- security office.
27 And Mr. Jackson and the boy were in front of
28 the -- they call it the Peter Pan display. It’s a 5194
1 window where Peter Pan lights up.
2 Q. Can you describe that? Where is that
3 located, what building?
4 A. Well, it’s the -- it’s where the office is
5 at, behind the main house. It’s connected. There’s
6 a breezeway, but it’s connected. And there’s a
7 display window, or a window where this Peter Pan
8 display is at, where it lights up and you see
9 Tinkerbell flying around the window.
10 Q. Okay. Could you describe to the jury the
11 positions of the child and the defendant, Mr.
12 Jackson?
13 A. Well, they were looking at the display, the
14 Tinkerbell lighting up. And he was -- Jordie was in
15 front, Mr. Jackson was in back, and he had his hands
16 over like this, and --
17 Q. You’re indicating over --
18 A. Over his back, towards the front.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. And then he turned him around, kissed him.
21 It was passionate, but it didn’t last that long.
22 And then his hands went down to his private areas.
23 And then they ran inside the house.
24 Q. All right. You say he kissed him, and it
25 was not very long but it was passionate. Where did
26 he kiss the child?
27 A. In the mouth.
28 Q. And when you say “his hands went down,” 5195
1 where did they go -- whose hands went down where?
2 A. Mr. Jackson’s hands went down to his crotch
3 area, the boy’s.
4 Q. The boy’s?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. And what -- how long -- how long do you
7 estimate that this incident took?
8 A. It was -- it didn’t take very long.
9 Probably 10 seconds, 20 minutes. I’m not sure.
10 Q. And then at that point what did you see?
11 A. They went -- ran inside the back, the inside
12 of the house.
13 Q. Both the child and Mr. Jackson?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 MR. SNEDDON: Just a moment, Your Honor.
16 Well, I must have misplaced it.
17 Your Honor, I have one other photograph I’d
18 like to have marked as 796 for identification
19 purposes. And I’ve shown it to counsel.
20 Q. With regard to the exhibit, 796, do you
21 recognize that?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. What is -- what is that?
24 A. This is behind the house. This is behind
25 the house. This is the office. And this is the
26 breezeway.
27 Q. So when you talk about a breezeway in your
28 testimony, this photograph depicts that breezeway? 5196
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. And does it depict the office that you were
3 talking about?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. All right. What I want you to do is, on
6 that photograph, just draw a little arrow and an “O”
7 to the building that you indicated is the office,
8 okay?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. And then just put a big “B” in the area that
11 you call the breezeway.
12 All right. Is that photograph an accurate
13 depiction of the area as you recall it back when you
14 observed these incidents?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 MR. SNEDDON: All right. Move that it be
17 admitted into evidence, Your Honor.
18 MR. MESEREAU: No objection.
19 THE COURT: It’s admitted.
20 MR. SNEDDON: Could we have the lights just
21 briefly, Your Honor?
22 Q. All right. This is 796, the photograph we
23 were just talking about, okay?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would you use that little red laser again,
26 and indicate -- there’s the “B” that you put, and
27 that is the area that you consider the breezeway?
28 A. Yes, sir. 5197
1 Q. And you also put an “O” with an arrow.
2 Would you find that for the jury.
3 All right. And that’s the area that you
4 described as what?
5 A. The outer office where the display is on the
6 window.
7 Q. Okay. All right. All right. That’s good.
8 I just wanted to get those down so everybody can get
9 an idea of what it was like.
10 All right. We can have the lights again.
11 Now, prior to the time -- let me ask you
12 this: With regard to the testimony you’ve just
13 related to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury here
14 this morning, did you also describe those incidents
15 to the -- when you were asked to make a statement
16 under oath?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. When you were subpoenaed to the grand jury?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Now, prior to the time that you appeared to
21 give a statement under oath as to the events that
22 you related here this morning, had you ever told
23 anyone about what you saw?
24 A. No, sir.
25 Q. Had you ever mentioned it to anybody?
26 A. No, sir.
27 Q. Why not?
28 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; relevance. 5198
1 THE COURT: Overruled.
2 You may answer.
3 THE WITNESS: Well, a lot of things went
4 through my mind, but one of the things was who would
5 believe me?
6 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Why?
7 A. Well --
8 MR. MESEREAU: Objection.
9 THE COURT: Sustained.
10 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: What else went through your
11 mind?
12 MR. MESEREAU: Objection.
13 THE COURT: Sustained.
14 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Have you ever personally
15 met anybody by the name of Blanca Francia?
16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. Have you ever personally met anyone by the
18 name of Phillipe LeMarque?
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. Have you met Wade Robeson?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. And how did you meet Wade Robeson?
23 A. Just by being on the property and -- and him
24 being on the property.
25 Q. How often was he on the property?
26 A. Numerous times, but I can’t give you a
27 number of how many times.
28 Q. Mr. Chacon, when you left the ranch as an 5199
1 employee - okay? --
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Oh, I had another question before we get
4 there.
5 Were you armed?
6 A. No, sir.
7 Q. At the time that Mr. Jackson -- during the
8 time that you became aware of the fact that Mr.
9 Jackson was under investigation, were there any
10 guards on the ranch property that were armed?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. And how many?
13 A. There was about four or five of them.
14 Q. Were they people who had been employed by
15 the ranch as security officers for -- prior to that
16 time?
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. Now, when you left the ranch, why did you
19 leave?
20 A. I was forced to leave --
21 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; relevance.
22 THE COURT: Overruled.
23 You may answer.
24 THE WITNESS: I was forced to leave because
25 of the OSS, the bodyguards that came on the property
26 that were armed, because we would not comply with
27 whatever they wanted us to do or say, because we
28 didn’t -- we didn’t -- we went to the grand jury, 5200
1 but they didn’t know what we had said so they had
2 put pressure on us to quit.
3 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Did you ever tell anybody
4 after you went to the grand jury what you had
5 testified to in front of the grand jury?
6 A. After?
7 Q. Yeah. Anybody associated with Mr. Jackson.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Who was that?
10 A. Kassim Abdool.
11 Q. And that’s the person you worked with?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. Other than that, anybody else?
14 A. No, sir.
15 Q. Did you at some point in time file a lawsuit
16 against Mr. Jackson, you and other members of the
17 staff?
18 A. Yes, sir, we did.
19 Q. And in that particular lawsuit, where was
20 that tried?
21 A. Santa Maria, right here, sir.
22 Q. And did you lose that lawsuit?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 MR. SNEDDON: I have no further questions,
25 Your Honor.
26 THE COURT: Cross-examine?
27 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, please, Your Honor.
28 // 5201
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. MESEREAU:
3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Chacon.
4 A. Good morning, sir.
5 Q. Mr. Chacon, my name is Tom Mesereau, and I
6 speak for Mr. Jackson.
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. I’d like to ask you a few questions about
9 that lawsuit you lost. That was the longest civil
10 trial in the history of Santa Maria, right?
11 A. I don’t know, sir.
12 Q. It went about six months, didn’t it?
13 A. I believe so, yes, sir.
14 Q. You sued Mr. Jackson and you wanted $16
15 million, right?
16 A. Well, I don’t know about the 16 million.
17 Q. You wanted millions, true?
18 A. No, sir.
19 Q. Really?
20 A. Well, I don’t know, sir. Whatever our
21 attorney was -- he’s the one who was speaking for
22 us.
23 Q. Okay. We’ll get into that.
24 You sued Mr. Jackson claiming you were
25 wrongfully terminated, right?
26 A. That’s correct, sir.
27 Q. He sued you claiming you had stolen property
28 from him, true? 5202
1 A. That’s correct, sir.
2 Q. The jury found you were not wrongfully
3 terminated by Mr. Jackson, correct?
4 A. But we were, sir.
5 Q. Answer my question, please. Did the Santa
6 Maria jury find you were not wrongfully terminated
7 by Mr. Jackson?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. And they also found you had stolen property
10 from Mr. Jackson, correct?
11 A. But I didn’t, sir.
12 Q. Did the Santa Maria jury find you had stolen
13 property from Mr. Jackson?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. A judgment was entered against you, Mr.
16 Chacon, for $25,000, the value of what you had
17 stolen, correct?
18 A. For candy bars, sir?
19 Q. A judgment was entered against you for
20 $25,000, the value of what the Court found you had
21 stolen, correct?
22 A. Well, if a candy bar is worth that much,
23 yes, sir.
24 Q. That’s not all you owe Mr. Jackson
25 currently, is it?
26 A. No, sir. I don’t owe him.
27 Q. In fact, Judge Zel Canter of this court,
28 entered a judgment against you and your 5203
1 co-defendants for $1,473,117.61, correct?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. He ordered you pay all of Mr. Jackson’s
4 legal fees and costs, correct?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Have you ever paid any of that judgment, Mr.
7 Chacon?
8 A. No, sir. I filed bankruptcy.
9 Q. Now, the jury found you not only stole from
10 Mr. Jackson, but you acted maliciously, correct?
11 A. No, sir.
12 Q. Did a judge find you had acted with malice?
13 A. No, sir.
14 Q. Is there a judgment against you for acting
15 with fraud against Mr. Jackson?
16 A. That I know of, no, sir.
17 Q. Would it refresh your recollection to look
18 at the judgment?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay.
23 Oh, it’s there, sir. I didn’t know. Yes,
24 sir.
25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
26 look at that judgment, Mr. Chacon?
27 A. Do you mean right now?
28 Q. Yes. 5204
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. There is not only a judgment against you in
3 favor of Mr. Jackson --
4 MR. SNEDDON: Wait a minute. I’m going to
5 object. He asked to refresh his recollection. He
6 should ask him if it did.
7 MR. MESEREAU: Sure.
8 THE COURT: That’s correct.
9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
10 look at the judgment against you, Mr. Chacon?
11 A. I looked at that, yes, sir. But I don’t
12 remember it.
13 Q. Does it refresh your recollection that
14 there’s a judgment against you for fraud and
15 malice --
16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. -- in favor of Mr. Jackson?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. You never heard of that before?
20 A. Well, probably, but I don’t remember.
21 Q. After a six-month trial, you don’t remember?
22 A. Well, it’s been 12 years also, sir, or so.
23 Q. Do you remember stipulating and agreeing
24 that you had personally acted with fraud, oppression
25 and malice against Mr. Jackson?
26 A. Probably so, sir.
27 Q. You did that, didn’t you?
28 A. No, sir. 5205
1 Q. You didn’t stipulate that you had acted with
2 fraud, oppression, and malice against Mr. Jackson in
3 that case?
4 A. Well, yes, sir.
5 Q. After a six-month trial, this is a good way
6 to get even with him, isn’t it?
7 MR. SNEDDON: Argumentative. Object, Your
8 Honor. Move to strike.
9 THE COURT: Sustained.
10 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you have any motive
11 today, sir, to get even with Mr. Jackson?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. Do you remember telling a therapist you’d
14 rather get a million dollars from Mr. Jackson than
15 work?
16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. Do you remember being evaluated by a Ph.D.
18 named Dr. Scott Gorsuch?
19 A. I don’t recall, sir.
20 Q. Do you recall being evaluated by a therapist
21 in that lawsuit?
22 A. Probably at one point, but I don’t recall
23 it, sir.
24 Q. Who was your lawyer in that case?
25 A. Mr. Ring from Santa Barbara.
26 Q. Do you remember, in response to being called
27 a malinger, you said, “I’d like just a million from
28 Mr. Jackson”? 5206
1 A. That’s not true, sir.
2 Q. Never happened?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. Do you recall making statements you didn’t
5 want to work again?
6 A. No, sir.
7 Q. Okay. After you left Mr. Jackson, you filed
8 for disability, didn’t you?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. You weren’t disabled, were you?
11 A. I think it was just unemployment, wasn’t it?
12 Q. Did you file for disability, Mr. Chacon,
13 after you left Mr. Jackson’s employment?
14 A. It was unemployment, I believe it was.
15 Q. Okay. You had a deposition taken in that
16 case under oath, correct?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. And that was not the first time you had ever
19 been deposed, correct?
20 A. I don’t understand, sir, what you’re saying.
21 Q. You had had your deposition taken in
22 lawsuits before that one, true?
23 A. No, sir. Not that I recall.
24 Q. That was the first deposition you’d ever had
25 taken that you recall?
26 A. In my life?
27 Q. Yes.
28 A. Yes, sir. 5207
1 Q. Okay. Do you remember being asked if you
2 were aware that your attorney wanted $16 million for
3 you from Mr. Jackson and you said you understood
4 that?
5 A. No, sir.
6 Q. Would it refresh your recollection to show
7 you a page from your deposition?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 THE WITNESS: Where does it say 16 million?
12 Oh, okay, I see that.
13 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
14 look at that page of your deposition?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Remember you said you were aware that your
17 lawyer had asked for 16 million?
18 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to ask that counsel
19 be directed to ask whether it refreshes his
20 recollection before he reads.
21 MR. MESEREAU: I’m sorry. I will withdraw
22 the question.
23 Q. Have you looked at that deposition?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. You were under oath at the time, correct?
26 A. Yes, sir.
27 Q. Does it refresh your recollection that you
28 admitted you knew your lawyer had asked for $16 5208
1 million?
2 A. No, sir.
3 Q. In fact, you said you didn’t think 16
4 million was enough, correct?
5 A. No, sir.
6 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just
7 show you your deposition?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach?
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 THE WITNESS: That’s on there.
12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
13 look at that page?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Does it refresh your recollection that you
16 didn’t think $16 million was enough to you?
17 A. No, sir, I don’t.
18 Q. You didn’t say that?
19 A. No, I mean, I don’t -- now I see it’s
20 written down there, yes, sir.
21 Q. Well, how much did you want in the lawsuit,
22 sir?
23 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your
24 Honor.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.
26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: In that lawsuit, you tried
27 to extort Mr. Jackson, didn’t you?
28 A. No, sir. 5209
1 MR. SNEDDON: Object; argumentative, Your
2 Honor.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember being
5 asked at the beginning of your deposition, “Have you
6 ever been deposed before?” And you said, “Yes”?
7 A. No, I don’t recall, sir.
8 Q. Might it refresh your recollection to see
9 that page?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
12 THE COURT: Yes.
13 THE WITNESS: Okay, sir.
14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
15 look at that?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Does it remind you that you admitted you had
18 been deposed before?
19 A. I -- I don’t remember. But it’s down there,
20 yes, sir.
21 Q. Well, you’d been in other lawsuits before
22 this, hadn’t --
23 THE COURT: Counsel, I believe it’s time for
24 our break.
25 MR. MESEREAU: Oh.
26 (Recess taken.)
27 --o0o--
28 5210
1 REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE
2
3
4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE )
5 OF CALIFORNIA, )
6 Plaintiff, )
7 -vs- ) No. 1133603
8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
9 Defendant. )
10
11
12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR,
13 CSR #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby
14 certify:
15 That the foregoing pages 5161 through 5210
16 contain a true and correct transcript of the
17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled
18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at
19 said proceedings on April 7, 2005, and thereafter
20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided
21 transcription under my direction.
22 DATED: Santa Maria, California,
23 April 7, 2005.
24
25
26
27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 5211
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
5
6
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
13
14
15
16
17 REPORTER’S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
18
19 THURSDAY, APRIL 7, 2005
20
21 8:30 A.M.
22
23 (PAGES 5157 THROUGH 5394)
24
25
26
27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 5212
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
9
10
11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A.
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067
14 -and-
15 SANGER & SWYSEN
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C
17 Santa Barbara, California 93101
18 -and-
19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ.
20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs, California 90670
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 5213
1 I N D E X
2
3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Nicola is listed as “N” on index. Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index.
6 Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index. Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index.
7 Mr. Oxman is listed as “O” on index.
8
9 PLAINTIFF’S
10 WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
11 CHACON, Ralph 5269-SN 5280-M
12 McMANUS, 5283-Z 5355-M
13 Adrian Marie
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 5214
1 E X H I B I T S
2 FOR IN
3 PLAINTIFF’S NO. DESCRIPTION I.D. EVID.
4 797 Photocopy of note 5342 5348
5 798 Photocopy of half of three
6 $100 bills 5342 5348
7 797 Photocopy of note 5352 5354
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 5215
1 THE COURT: Counsel?
2 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.
3 Q. Mr. Chacon, you mentioned to the jury
4 someone named Kassim Abdool, right?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. And was Kassim Abdool someone you worked
7 with at Neverland?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And I believe you told the jury that he was
10 the first person you talked to about your claim that
11 Mr. Jackson was molesting young men, correct?
12 A. I believe so, yes, sir.
13 Q. Kassim Abdool joined you in that lawsuit
14 against Mr. Jackson, correct?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Kassim Abdool also had a judgment against
17 him in favor of Mr. Jackson for $1,473,117.61,
18 correct?
19 A. I believe so, sir, yes.
20 Q. Kassim Abdool joined you in trying to get
21 millions from Mr. Jackson, right?
22 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your
23 Honor.
24 THE COURT: Overruled.
25 You may answer.
26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Is that correct?
27 A. No, sir. No, sir.
28 Q. Oh, he didn’t? 5216
1 A. No, sir.
2 Q. He wasn’t a plaintiff with you in that case?
3 A. Oh, he was, yes, sir.
4 Q. You’re saying that Mr. Abdool was not
5 looking for millions like you?
6 A. No, sir.
7 Q. How much did he want, Mr. Chacon?
8 A. There wasn’t an amount, sir.
9 Q. After a six-month trial, your lawyer didn’t
10 ask the jury to award an amount for you, sir?
11 A. You’ll have to ask Mr. Ring.
12 Q. You were sitting there, weren’t you?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Did you hear him give a closing argument to
15 the jury?
16 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
17 object; argumentative.
18 THE COURT: Sustained.
19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Are you telling this jury
20 today, under oath, you don’t know how much your
21 lawyer asked for in that six-month trial?
22 A. I saw it earlier when you showed --
23 MR. SNEDDON: Excuse me. I’m going to
24 object as argumentative and immaterial.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.
26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: There was also someone
27 named Adrian McManus who joined you in suing Mr.
28 Jackson, correct? 5217
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. And Adrian McManus had worked at Neverland,
3 right?
4 A. That’s correct, sir.
5 Q. And like you and Mr. Abdool, she lost the
6 case, correct?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. A Santa Maria jury ruled against her as
9 well, right?
10 A. That’s correct.
11 Q. Now, Adrian McManus was also found to have
12 stolen property from Mr. Jackson, true?
13 A. No, sir.
14 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
15 you the judgment?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
18 object as immaterial with regard to this witness’s
19 testimony; beyond his knowledge; no foundation.
20 THE COURT: Sustained.
21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When did you last talk to
22 Adrian McManus?
23 A. Probably months; months ago.
24 Q. Did you talk about this case at all?
25 A. Only if I knew when I was coming down, and
26 how she was doing.
27 Q. Is that all you discussed about this case?
28 A. Yes, sir. 5218
1 Q. How long was the conversation?
2 A. Oh, couldn’t have lasted more than five
3 minutes, because she was at work.
4 Q. When did you last talk to Kassim Abdool?
5 A. I have not, sir, at all.
6 Q. Not at all?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. When’s the last time you talked to
9 him?
10 A. Probably the time when we left court here.
11 Back then.
12 Q. Okay. All right. Now, when you sued Mr.
13 Jackson, you had judgments against you in other
14 cases, true?
15 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
16 object as immaterial.
17 THE COURT: Sustained.
18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you sued Mr. Jackson,
19 the wages you were getting from Mr. Jackson were
20 being partially garnished, correct?
21 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
22 object. Same objection.
23 MR. MESEREAU: Financial motive, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: The objection is overruled.
25 You may answer.
26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Correct?
27 A. Yes, sir.
28 Q. They were being garnished because you 5219
1 wouldn’t pay child support, true?
2 A. I was paying child support, sir.
3 Q. Then why were they garnished?
4 A. I assume that’s the procedure they do when
5 they want child support from you.
6 Q. You couldn’t just send a check yourself?
7 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object to that --
8 THE COURT: Sustained; calls for a legal
9 conclusion.
10 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: At one point, you asked a
11 Santa Barbara sheriff for money, true?
12 A. I don’t recall, sir.
13 Q. Do you recall ever asking Mr. Birchim for
14 some money?
15 A. No, sir.
16 Q. Are you saying it never happened?
17 A. I don’t recall, sir.
18 Q. Okay. When did you last talk to Russ
19 Birchim?
20 A. This morning.
21 Q. Where did you talk to him?
22 A. Here at the courthouse.
23 Q. Did you talk about your testimony?
24 A. No, sir.
25 Q. Okay. So you’re not denying that you asked
26 him for money and you’re not denying he gave it to
27 you; you just don’t remember, right?
28 A. I don’t recall, sir. 5220
1 Q. When did you first meet Russ Birchim?
2 A. I believe it was back in ‘93, I believe.
3 I’m not sure.
4 Q. Ever hear of a company called Commercial
5 Trade?
6 A. No, sir.
7 Q. You didn’t have a lawsuit with Commercial
8 Trade in 1989?
9 MR. SNEDDON: Object as immaterial.
10 THE COURT: Sustained.
11 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you know someone named
12 Judge Byrd?
13 A. No, sir.
14 Q. Judge Byrd had a judgment against you for a
15 couple thousand dollars, didn’t she?
16 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
17 object to this and ask the Court to admonish
18 counsel.
19 THE COURT: The --
20 MR. MESEREAU: It’s all part of the
21 financial motive, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: There’s no time frame. The
23 problem you’re asking about is when. I don’t know
24 that. So I’ll sustain the objection on vagueness.
25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: At the time you sued Mr.
26 Jackson for an amount you don’t remember, isn’t it
27 true you had a judgment against you for $2600 by a
28 Ms. Judge Byrd? 5221
1 A. I don’t recall, sir.
2 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
3 you your deposition where you talked about it?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, sir.
8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
9 look at that deposition page?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Did it refresh your recollection?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. Do you know who Judge Byrd is?
14 A. No, sir.
15 Q. Okay. Do you know anything about a judgment
16 she ever had against you?
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. Okay. Now, when did you first tell Kassim
19 Abdool, your co-plaintiff against Mr. Jackson, about
20 this alleged molestation you witnessed?
21 A. Probably when -- when we -- when we knew
22 that we were going to be subpoenaed to the grand
23 jury.
24 Q. And approximately when was that?
25 A. I believe it was in ‘94 sometime.
26 Q. By the way, do you remember testifying that
27 Sheriff Russ Birchim delivered money to you?
28 A. I don’t recall, sir. 5222
Subject: April 7, 2005 
Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:48 pm
