7116
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
5
6
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
13
14
15
16
17 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
18
19 THURSDAY, APRIL 21, 2005
20
21 8:30 A.M.
22
23 (PAGES 7116 THROUGH 7163)
24
25
26
27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 7116
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
9
10
11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A.
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067
14 -and-
15 SANGER & SWYSEN
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C
17 Santa Barbara, California 93101
18 -and-
19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ.
20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs, California 90670
21 (NOT PRESENT)
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 7117
1 I N D E X
2
3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index. Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index.
6 Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index. Mr. Oxman is listed as “O” on index.
7
8
9 PLAINTIFF'S WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
10
11 BARRON, Brian 7120-SA (Contd.)
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 7118
1 Santa Maria, California
2 Thursday, April 21, 2005
3 8:30 a.m.
4
5 THE COURT: Good morning, everyone.
6 THE JURY: (In unison) Good morning.
7 COUNSEL AT COUNSEL TABLE: (In unison)
8 Good morning, Your Honor.
9 MR. SANGER: Good morning, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Mr. Sanger?
11 MR. SANGER: Thank you, Your Honor.
12 Could we please have the document screen
13 again, please? There we go.
14 All right. With the Court's permission,
15 we'll resume with Exhibit 334. And the Court may
16 recall this is a series of a couple hundred
17 documents and they have the Bates stamped number on
18 the bottom, so we'll be referring to those by the
19 MJ00 three-digit number, sometimes four-digit
20 number.
21 Is that all right, Your Honor?
22 THE COURT: You may do so.
23 MR. SANGER: Thank you.
24
25 BRIAN BARRON
26 Having been previously sworn, resumed the
27 stand and testified further as follows:
28 // 7119
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued)
2 BY MR. SANGER:
3 Q. And in that regard, Mr. Barron, or Officer
4 Barron, we had gotten to this period of time, just
5 before we stopped yesterday, where the gate log
6 showed from 2-17 to 2-20. Do you recall that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that was not the usual mode of
9 recording. Usually it was day by day; is that
10 correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. All right. So I'm going to show you 149
13 here again. Even though we had gotten up to 2-20, I
14 want to go back to that period for a couple of other
15 entries, all right?
16 So just to remind us where we were, I have
17 MJ00149 up on the board. And that is the one that
18 said 2-17 through 2-20-03, correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And at the top, that had the extensive list
21 of guests and where they were staying, correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And then it shows “CO,” so it's carry-over
24 for the Arvizo family, and then it has times out,
25 but those times out are not necessarily coordinated
26 with a particular day; is that correct?
27 A. Correct.
28 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to refer to 00152 7120
1 and put that up on the board, if I may. Shows, at
2 the bottom, 152.
3 Do we have our laser pointer, by any chance?
4 If you have it.
5 152. And then up at the top there's an
6 entry that I'm going to -- I'm going to push the
7 wrong button. I'm sorry. There we go. Sorry. I'm
8 going to push the -- that button. See if you can
9 read that entry.
10 Do you have it there?
11 MS. YU: No, somebody took it out.
12 MR. SANGER: All right. That's all right.
13 Q. Are you able to read the top entry there
14 after I stop moving it? Just a second. There we
15 go. Can you read that entry?
16 A. At 3:05?
17 Q. Yes. Would you like to have another copy up
18 there?
19 A. I think -- I believe it says Marie Nicole,
20 Danielle, Aldo are staying upstairs theater.
21 Q. Okay. And this particular gate log is dated
22 2-18-03, correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Now, what would be the purpose of that
25 particular entry; do you know?
26 A. So we would know where they were.
27 Q. So that would be a reference to where those
28 particular guests were staying on that particular 7121
1 day; is that correct?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. So as of 3:05, those guests had decided to
4 stay in the upstairs theater, correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. All right. We'll skip ahead, then, to -- I
7 don't want to get this out of order. We'll skip
8 ahead to 155. Now, I'm going to show you 155.
9 And I'll try to speak up when I come back
10 here? If anybody can't hear, raise a hand so the
11 Court and bailiff know.
12 That's for 2-19-03, correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And on this, I want to direct your attention
15 to the top part of this one. It appears to indicate
16 Hamid, a photographer.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. And by the way, there's a column that
19 says, “CONF.” What does that mean?
20 A. Confidentiality, if they need to sign one or
21 not.
22 Q. So a person who has been there doesn't have
23 to sign that agreement each time they come in,
24 correct?
25 A. Correct.
26 Q. And the agreement basically says, “I'm not
27 going to disclose private things about Mr. Jackson's
28 residence”; is that right? 7122
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Okay. And it shows that Hamid and
3 apparently a couple other people, a Mark Adams and a
4 Ray Dominguez, arrived at 1620 hours, is that
5 correct, 4:20 in the afternoon?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And departed at 2010 hours, which would be
8 8:10 in the evening, correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, other -- let me ask you, did you have a
11 chance to review these logs since you testified
12 yesterday?
13 A. No.
14 Q. All right. I'm going to show you now 157.
15 And I think this was really the last one that we put
16 up yesterday. And this shows -- let me back this up
17 a little bit. 00157 is for 2-20-03, correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And this one shows that the Arvizos returned
20 to the property at 1420 hours, or 2:20 in the
21 afternoon, on the 20th of February, 2003, correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And it also shows that Aja Pryor and
24 something Tucker, that's cut off there, returned at
25 the same time?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. So it indicated all those people came to the
28 gate at the same minute, correct? 7123
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And generally that would indicate they came
3 in the same vehicle?
4 A. Generally, yes, it would.
5 Q. All right. Now, if we go to the next page,
6 which would be 00158, which I'll put up, that shows
7 158 at the bottom. If we look at the top, that's
8 also for 2-20-03, correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you indicated there usually are three
11 pages per day; is that right?
12 A. Generally, yes.
13 Q. Generally. So this is just another page for
14 that same day?
15 A. If it's dated the same day, then yes.
16 Q. Yeah. And what I would like to do is direct
17 your attention to -- see if I can get it in there so
18 you can still read it.
19 If you look at the entrance for 1420 --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- that's the same time that was indicated
22 on the preceding page that the Arvizos, Aja Pryor,
23 and Destin Tucker arrive; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And here the entry indicates Jesus S., so
26 let's start with that. That would be Jesus Salas;
27 is that correct?
28 A. Correct. 7124
1 Q. Jesus Salas cleared Aja Pryor, Dustin
2 Tucker, Gavin Arvizo, Star Arvizo, Davellin Arvizo
3 to come in, correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And the purpose of that entry is what, that
6 type of entry?
7 A. That type of entry is generally for, first
8 of all, whomever's at the gate to know to let
9 someone in if they don't have prior -- you know, if
10 we haven't been given a list of somebody who's
11 coming in that day, and then to let the oncoming
12 shift know that they're there.
13 Q. So that would be further evidence in these
14 logs that all of those people just mentioned, Pryor,
15 Tucker, and three Arvizos, came back to the ranch at
16 1420 hours on February the 20th, correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Oh, I'm sorry, there was one other thing on
19 that. It also looks like Shane Brando ran over
20 somebody's foot with a cart, is that true, at about
21 1815 hours?
22 A. If that's what it says, I'm assuming it's
23 true.
24 Q. And then 1924, it looks like Shane Brando
25 hit Gavin Arvizo with a cart?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And then the cart was taken away, all right?
28 A. Yes. 7125
1 Q. Okay. So, again, somebody in security or
2 somebody on the staff, when they saw that there was
3 a safety issue, exercised supervision over guests on
4 the ranch; is that correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And it shows Gavin is Code 4, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then it says, “Received EMT care from,”
9 what does that say, K-10 and K-13?
10 A. No, it's R-10 and R-13.
11 Q. R-10 and R-13, are those designations for
12 people that worked on the ranch?
13 A. “R” is Robert. It's a call sign over the
14 radio, so we're not using each other's name.
15 Q. So whoever it was who responded from the
16 fire department came down to give him some sort of
17 emergency care to make sure he's okay, is that
18 right?
19 A. Yes. Robert 10 gave the care. Robert 13
20 wrote it down.
21 Q. There you go. When it says, “Gavin,
22 Code 4,” Code 4 means no further assistance
23 required, okay?
24 A. Yeah, he's okay.
25 Q. If you say, in police talk basically,
26 “Code 4,” you mean no further assistance,
27 everything's okay?
28 A. Correct. 7126
1 Q. All right, good. We're going to skip ahead
2 here to 160. I'm putting up 160. Now, that's for
3 2-21-03; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And at the bottom, it shows, “Vincent
6 Black,” yes, “22” -- I think that says “55,” “2255,”
7 correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So that would indicate -- even though it's
10 written on the bottom, it would indicate, sir, that
11 Vincent Black arrived, had to sign an agreement,
12 right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that he arrived at 2255 hours, correct?
15 A. Pull the paper down a little more.
16 Q. Certainly. Would you like to look at a --
17 would it be easier to look at a full sheet?
18 A. Yes, my eyes haven't adjusted from yesterday
19 yet.
20 MR. SANGER: All right. May I approach,
21 Your Honor?
22 THE COURT: Yes.
23 MR. SANGER: Excuse me. Does anybody want
24 to see this? I'm just going to show him my copy.
25 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Go ahead.
26 THE WITNESS: Mr. Black did need to sign a
27 confidentiality, and he was checked in at 2255.
28 It's on the bottom, because there's no more room for 7127
1 guests here.
2 Q. BY MR. SANGER: All right. So, the fact
3 that it's put in the margin is of no significance
4 other than the fact you ran out of room on the form,
5 right?
6 A. Yes, and the officer didn't want to start a
7 new sheet.
8 Q. For ecological reasons, I assume?
9 A. Sure.
10 Q. It says “CO” next to the 2255, so that means
11 Mr. Black checked in at 10:55 at night, he came
12 through the gate at 10:55 at night, and then he
13 stayed to the next day, correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And below it, it says Janet Arvizo, correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. That tends to indicate that Janet Arvizo
18 came in at 2255 hours as well; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And she was not required to sign a
21 confidentiality agreement?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And then she also stayed overnight that
24 night; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And if we go up here, higher on the sheet,
27 we see among the guests who were there on this day,
28 the 21st of February, you also had Aja Pryor, 7128
1 correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then Destin Tucker, correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And then the Arvizo children, Gavin, Star
6 and Davellin?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And it shows that the Arvizos were there
9 from the night before, and they continued on to the
10 next day without checking out; is that correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Okay. And then, of course, there are other
13 people that are listed on the list. We won't go
14 through each one. There are other guests there that
15 day?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. There you go.
18 May I approach to retrieve that?
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Now, we'll go to page 164,
21 if I may. It's MJ00164. Show that. And that's for
22 February 22nd, 2003; is that correct?
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. It's hard to read. Maybe counsel would
25 agree that when you look at it closely it says the
26 22nd. If not, let me approach.
27 May I approach, Your Honor?
28 THE COURT: Yes. 7129
1 MR. SANGER: I'll tell you what --
2 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I can't read it on mine.
3 MR. SANGER: Let's do this.
4 THE WITNESS: Is there a date on the top or
5 just one on the bottom?
6 Q. BY MR. SANGER: No, there's just one on the
7 bottom. But let me show you the -- let me show you
8 that page.
9 May I approach with that page?
10 I'm going to show you page 00164, and ask
11 you to take a look -- excuse me, take a look at the
12 date at the bottom, and see if you can tell the date
13 from that.
14 A. I'll agree it's the 22nd.
15 Q. All right. Thank you. And it would be in
16 order, correct? There should be other pages
17 pertaining to the 22nd in the book, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right. Okay. So there's the date. And
20 I'm putting 00164 back up on the screen. And do you
21 see there is the entries for Gavin, Star, Davellin
22 in the guest information?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Gavin, it shows -- under “Limo/POV,”
25 it shows “#2.” What does that represent to you?
26 A. To me that would represent he was staying in
27 Guest Unit 2.
28 Q. And it shows Star Arvizo, ditto, is also in 7130
1 Guest Unit 2; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And they were both staying overnight. They
4 had been there and they stayed over to the next time
5 period, to the next 24-hour period, correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. If you look at Davellin, what does that say?
8 A. Upstairs viewing.
9 Q. And upstairs viewing would be the room in --
10 one of the rooms in the theater; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So that indicates that she was staying in
13 the upstairs viewing part of the theater; is that
14 correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And if you look up at the third entry up
17 there, you have Cascio, comma, Marie Nicole; is that
18 correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And it shows that she was also staying in
21 the upstairs viewing in the theater; is that
22 correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. And she also stayed overnight,
25 correct?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Okay. And down at the bottom it shows Janet
28 Arvizo, correct? 7131
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And it shows No. 4. Is that Guest Unit
3 No. 4?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, is Guest Unit No. 4 the guest unit that
6 Elizabeth Taylor likes to stay in when she visits?
7 A. I have no idea.
8 Q. Okay. Is it a nice guest unit?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And it shows Janet Arvizo was staying
11 overnight. She had been there at midnight, and she
12 was there at the next cutoff, which would be the
13 next midnight; is that correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Okay. We'll go to MJ00166, and that's
16 2-23-03; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, on this date, we have the Arvizos shown
19 again as staying at the ranch; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And they were all staying -- they had all
22 been there and they were all staying overnight as
23 guests again, correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And Gavin and Star are in Unit 2; is that
26 right?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Davellin's at the theater upstairs? 7132
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And Janet is in Unit 4?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. And Marie Nicole Cascio is also
5 in the theater upstairs, the same place as Davellin;
6 is that correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Now, it's possible for people at Neverland
9 to -- for guests at Neverland to request the
10 services of staff people there; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And in a sense, it's almost like a hotel as
13 far as service is concerned; is that right?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. If somebody wants to call and have coffee
16 brought to them or breakfast or anything, they can
17 simply call and that will be done for them; is that
18 correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. If somebody wants to call and have their
21 laundry done, for instance, if they have laundry or
22 cleaning that needs to be done, somebody would come
23 and pick it up and take care of it for them; is that
24 right?
25 A. That's correct.
26 Q. If somebody wants to have a wake-up call,
27 they can make a request for a wake-up call; is that
28 correct? 7133
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So I'm going to show 167 here, if I may.
3 167. By that I mean 00167, and the top is
4 2-23-03. And here this shows that a wake-up call is
5 requested for Unit 4 at seven o'clock in the
6 morning; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. Let's skip ahead. I like to say
9 that. It gives everybody a false sense of progress
10 here. We are getting there. Skip ahead to 171, if
11 I may. 00171 is 2-24-03, correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Okay. Now, there's a number of entries I'd
14 like to -- a number of entries I'd like to focus on
15 here. First of all, let's look at -- Gavin and Star
16 Arvizo were staying in Unit 2, correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Davellin is again at the theater?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Janet Arvizo is in Unit 4; is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Now, it appears that the Arvizos were
23 there overnight from the night before, correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And then it appears that they all left at
26 1634 hours, which would be 4:34 in the afternoon; is
27 that right?
28 A. Yes. 7134
1 Q. And then it appears that Gavin and Star and
2 Janet came back at 2005, which would be 8:05 p.m.;
3 correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And then they stayed overnight till the next
6 day, right?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And then Davellin came back at 1855, which
9 would be 6:55, five minutes to 7:00 in the evening,
10 correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So it looks like they all left together, but
13 Davellin came back a little earlier, and Janet, Star
14 and Gavin stayed out and did something else and came
15 back later, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. Now, if we look down on this
18 sheet -- and by the way, do you know if Gavin and
19 Star were taken to the dentist at some point?
20 A. I don't remember that.
21 Q. All right. This is not a day that you were
22 particularly on duty, was it?
23 A. Which day?
24 Q. This day, which is 2-24-03.
25 A. You'd have to show me the other log.
26 Q. That would be 172. Let me put that up.
27 This is 00172. And can you tell whether or not you
28 were on duty that day? 7135
1 A. No. Not according to that.
2 Q. I'm going to put 00171 back up. And let's
3 see if we can figure this out. It looks like from
4 the top that the whole Arvizo family left at 1634
5 hours. And then if you look down at the bottom, it
6 says, “Employee vehicle,” and the second entry shows
7 “Vinnie, Arvizos 4,” correct?
8 A. The second entry down?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. No, that would be on the first entry.
11 Frank, Vinnie.
12 Q. Frank and Vinnie. Okay. That's fair
13 enough.
14 That says, “Frank and Vinnie, brown dually.”
15 Was there a -- or some kind of dually. Is there a
16 dually?
17 A. Yes, it's a brown dually.
18 Q. Okay. And a dually, as most people know
19 here, has got dual wheels in the back of the truck?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. It looks like they went out in a brown
22 dually at 11:05 in the morning and got back at 3:11
23 in the afternoon, correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. And the next entry, the one I was
26 focusing on -- and it seems to be cut off just a
27 little bit there. The second one says, it looks
28 like “Vinnie,” does it not? Or, “i-n-n-i-e,” 7136
1 a little bit of a first letter got cut off?
2 A. Could I see your sheet? I --
3 Q. You can see mine, sure. If it's all right
4 with the Court.
5 May I approach?
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 THE WITNESS: It doesn't look like “Vinnie”
8 to me.
9 Q. BY MR. SANGER: What does it look like?
10 A. “Chris.”
11 Q. Oh, “Chris”? Okay. Anyway, you see -- I'm
12 going to move away - because I'm not supposed to
13 talk up here - so I don't have to walk back and
14 forth.
15 You see where it says, “Arvizos 4”?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And whatever that says before, it might be
18 “Chris,” it might be anything, but whatever it is,
19 after “Arvizos 4,” it then says, “Pontiac,” right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So somebody took a Pontiac out. Was that a
22 ranch vehicle?
23 A. I don't recall a Pontiac. It doesn't mean
24 there wasn't one. I don't recall a Pontiac.
25 Q. Do you remember Vinnie was driving a
26 Pontiac, if he brought a Pontiac to the ranch?
27 A. I have no idea.
28 Q. Did Vinnie at that time -- do you recall 7137
1 Vinnie having some kind of a vehicle that he brought
2 to the ranch?
3 A. No, I -- I don't recall his vehicle
4 whatsoever.
5 Q. Okay. You don't recall either way, whether
6 he brought one or didn't bring one?
7 A. No.
8 Q. All right. In any event, somebody with four
9 Arvizos took a Pontiac and left at 1634, correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If we look up at the top, that's consistent
12 with the check-out at the gate, 1634, of the family;
13 is that correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And then whoever that was with the Arvizos
16 came back at 1855 hours, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If we look up at the top, it would appear
19 that whoever came back with that vehicle brought
20 Davellin back; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And so Janet and the boys remained out until
23 2005 hours, right?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. And if we look at the next entry, we've got
26 Joe Marcus, right?
27 A. Right.
28 Q. Joe Marcus is the ranch manager; is that 7138
1 correct?
2 A. If he still is. He was at that time, I
3 believe, yes.
4 Q. That's fine. As of the time, he was the
5 ranch manager, correct?
6 A. Yes, he was.
7 Q. And do you know Joe?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is he a good guy, decent guy?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; relevance.
12 THE COURT: Sustained.
13 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Okay. You get along with
14 Joe Marcus?
15 A. At times.
16 Q. All right. At times not, I gather. All
17 right.
18 A. Well, I did at the time.
19 Q. You did at the time?
20 A. At the time, yes, I did.
21 Q. And had Joe Marcus, to your knowledge, been
22 at the ranch for a long time?
23 A. Very long.
24 Q. In fact, his father had been the ranch
25 manager for the prior owner; is that right?
26 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; relevance.
27 THE COURT: Sustained.
28 Q. BY MR. SANGER: All right. Now, it shows 7139
1 Joe Marcus has -- took a gray van; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And was the gray van one of the ranch
4 vehicles?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And it appears that he left at 1759 hours,
7 which would be one minute to 6:00 in the evening; is
8 that correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And then came back at 2005 hours; is that
11 right?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. And when you look at the -- put two and two
14 together here, the Arvizos, Janet and the two boys,
15 came back at that time. It would appear that they
16 came back with Joe Marcus; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. We'll go to 174. And 174, MJ00174, was from
19 February the 25th, 2003; is that correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. And here we see that the Arvizos, Gavin and
22 Star, stayed overnight, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And they were in Unit 2; is that right?
25 A. That's right.
26 Q. And then Davellin and Janet were in Unit 4;
27 is that correct?
28 A. Correct. 7140
1 Q. The Arvizos, all four of them, stayed
2 overnight?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then they left at 7:25 in the morning --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- is that correct?
7 So at 7:25 on the morning of February 25th,
8 they leave the ranch?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And if you look down a little farther, it
11 says, “Vinnie,” who is apparently staying in the
12 video library, he stayed overnight and he left at
13 7:25 in the morning?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So it looks like Vinnie and the Arvizos left
16 together at that time, correct?
17 A. They left at the same time. If they left
18 together, I don't know, but they definitely left at
19 the same time.
20 Q. All right. Now, let's go to 180. This will
21 be 00180 that I'm putting up. And this skips ahead
22 now to February the 27th, .03, correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. I'm going to direct your attention in this
25 case to Frank Cascio.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. It appears that Frank Cascio returned to the
28 ranch on February the 27th, .03, at 1735 hours or 7141
1 5:35 in the afternoon; is that correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. And we'll go to 00181. 181. February 27th.
4 This is another one of those sheets that pertains to
5 the same day; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And at 735 -- I'm sorry, 1735 hours, the
8 same time that was shown on the previous sheet, it
9 shows that Jesus Salas cleared Frank Cascio to come
10 on the property; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That's just further indication that Frank
13 Cascio came back to the property at 1735 hours on
14 that day?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right. And I'll put up 183. And this
17 is 00183 on February the 28th, .03. And directing
18 your attention to the third line down under “Guest
19 Information.” It shows Frank Cascio; is that
20 correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So on February the 28th, it shows that he
23 had been on the ranch from the previous day, and
24 continued to stay on the ranch to the next day?
25 A. Yes.
26 MR. SANGER: Okay. Your Honor, I'm now,
27 with the Court's permission, going to go to Exhibit
28 335 and proceed in the same fashion. That's a 7142
1 couple hundred pages. So I'm going to pick out a
2 few of those pages and make reference to the Bates
3 stamp number, if that's all right
4 THE COURT: That's fine.
5 MR. SANGER: Thank you.
6 Q. Just so we're oriented here, there's the
7 Court's Exhibit No. 335 that starts on page MJ00185,
8 and the date on that page is March 1, 2003, correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And that was not a leap year, so February
11 had 28 days; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. So the next day, from the last page
14 we showed, would be 3-1; is that right?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And in the back they're in these envelopes,
17 back to back, here. I'm going to show you 186,
18 which also says 3-1-03.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And it looks like somebody's trying to give
21 February 29 days there, but tried to correct it?
22 A. Looks that way.
23 Q. And I want to focus your attention on the
24 last line there of the guest information log where
25 it says, “Frank Tyson,” and that means that Frank
26 was staying at the video library, and he stayed
27 overnight; is that correct?
28 A. Correct. 7143
1 Q. And it didn't -- it didn't show that he
2 checked out that day?
3 A. No, it doesn't.
4 Q. All right. I do see at the bottom, it says
5 Frank/Chris took a gray van from 1:30 in the
6 afternoon to 4:30. Is that an indication that Frank
7 Tyson or Cascio went out with Chris?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. There was not another Frank there at
10 the time, that you're aware of?
11 A. Not that I'm aware of, no.
12 Q. But they came back, right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And so Frank, as far as you can tell, was an
15 overnight visitor that night as well?
16 A. As far as it shows. Didn't show that he
17 left. Doesn't show that he was carried over, so
18 very possibly.
19 Q. And then let's go to --
20 Okay, Your Honor, this is the exhibit as it
21 exists from the way it was presented by the
22 prosecution. This particular page does not have a
23 Bates stamp number on the bottom. I'll show it to
24 counsel. This does not have a Bates stamp number.
25 It follows Bates stamp number 33673 and precedes
26 Bates stamp number 33675.
27 THE COURT: I see that.
28 MR. SANGER: So I'm going to put that page 7144
1 up.
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 MR. SANGER: And I'm going to hope it
4 focuses. There we go.
5 Q. Okay. So no Bates stamp number, but it does
6 say 3-2. So that's March the 2nd, 2003, correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And on March the 2nd, 2003, Frank Tyson, it
9 shows, stayed overnight from the night before,
10 correct?
11 A. Excuse me, correct.
12 Q. And then it shows 1630 that he left; is that
13 right?
14 A. On -- that who left?
15 Q. Frank Tyson. Am I not reading it correctly?
16 A. I'm sorry, I was -- yes. Six --
17 Q. Let's take our time here. I'm sorry if I
18 confused you --
19 A. I apologize, I had to work last night.
20 Q. You worked last night?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. I apologize, I'm sorry that you have
23 to be here after doing that.
24 All right. We'll try to get you through
25 this here. But take a look at it again, take your
26 time. Looks like it says, “ank,” a-n-k, “Tyson.”
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. That's Frank Tyson, right? 7145
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And where it says 3625, are those the
3 phone --
4 A. Phone extensions.
5 Q. And those phone extensions are where?
6 A. In the video library.
7 Q. So it's another way of saying that's where
8 he was?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. It shows he stays overnight and then it
11 shows 1630, it appears that he left; is that
12 correct?
13 A. To me, it looks like 20 from here.
14 Q. All right. Whatever it says, that would be
15 the time that he left, according to this log; is
16 that correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And down at the bottom it says, “Frank
19 Tyson” again, and it shows “out.” That means he
20 took a ranch vehicle of some sort and left; is that
21 right?
22 A. It should, if it was put there.
23 Q. All right. And that, I think, says 1305?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So 1:05 in the afternoon. And then it shows
26 “in,” meaning he came back at 3:30 in the afternoon,
27 right?
28 A. Yes. 7146
1 Q. All right. And it looks like at 4:30 or
2 4:20, whatever that says, he may have left again;
3 is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, there's a star next to his name, and
6 what does that mean?
7 A. Most likely that he came back and the person
8 at the gate didn't record the time he came in.
9 Q. All right.
10 A. But if there was a star there, most likely
11 whomever was at the gate knew that he was there.
12 Q. That he came back on the property but they
13 just didn't record the exact time?
14 A. They didn't record the exact time.
15 Q. If you look up above that, we see what I
16 think says, “n-n-i-e.”
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And that shows that probably Vinnie; is that
19 correct?
20 A. Probably.
21 Q. All right. Arrived at 1430 hours. It
22 should be 2:30 in the afternoon.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And that he left at 1630 hours, correct?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And then there's a star, indicating he came
27 back and somebody forgot to put it down?
28 A. Correct. 7147
1 Q. So if we put those two together, it looks
2 like Frank Tyson and Vinnie probably left at the
3 same time, around 4:30 in the afternoon; is that
4 right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. Now, we also see that the Arvizo
7 family came back, and we have Gavin, Star, and
8 Davellin -- whose name is now recorded as “Davida”
9 or something; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. -- and Janet all came back at about 2:30,
12 apparently with Vinnie.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. I'm going to go to 033667, which
15 is dated 3-3-03, correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And this shows that -- excuse me one second.
18 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel
19 table.)
20 Q. BY MR. SANGER: This shows -- just going
21 down the list, on this particular date, which is
22 3-3-03, Vinnie was there, stayed overnight, and then
23 he left at ten minutes after noon; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. It doesn't show that he came back that day?
26 A. No.
27 Q. Then you have Gavin, Star, “Davellia” and
28 Janet Arvizo all staying overnight both from the 7148
1 night before and till the next night, right?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. This shows both the extensions and the room
4 numbers, or the unit numbers in some cases, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So Gavin was staying in Unit 3, which is
7 Extension 20 on the phone; is that right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Star was staying in Unit 4, which is
10 Extension 21, is that correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. We'll skip one there and go to Janet Arvizo
13 was staying in Unit 4, also at Extension 21, also?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, Davellin was staying -- first it said
16 Extension 3. I'm sorry, it said, “Unit 3.” That's
17 scratched out and it says, “Extension 50”; is that
18 correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And Extension 50 is out at the theater; is
21 that right?
22 A. Been a while. I -- I know 48 is. So it
23 could be, yes. I don't remember which one 50 was
24 at.
25 Q. But in any event, wherever 50 is, it's not
26 one of the guest units?
27 A. No.
28 Q. So it's someplace else on the ranch, right? 7149
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And that shows that she was staying at
3 whatever room was associated with Extension 50; is
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. Now, there are also -- and
7 throughout, we've been not commenting on everybody
8 who was staying there, but if you look down at the
9 bottom there, it says Rio and Simone.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you know who they are?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Does it appear that Rio and Simone arrived
14 at about eight o'clock at night on the 3rd of March?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And then they stayed overnight; is that
17 right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And who are Rio and Simone?
20 A. They are cousins, I believe, of Mr. Jackson.
21 Q. Okay. And I'm going to go to 189. 00189,
22 and that's for 3-4-03; is that correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. And on 3-4-03, we have Gavin and Star up at
25 the top, staying overnight?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. From overnight to overnight, there's no
28 check-out time; correct? 7150
1 A. Yes. Well, they were there overnight.
2 Q. Yeah.
3 A. At least one night.
4 Q. All right. In other words, it doesn't show
5 that they left. Usually you'd show carry-over for
6 “out,” but it just didn't show that, so you don't
7 know. We'll look at the next day.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. The best way to do it. And look
10 at the next day and see if they're still there,
11 right?
12 A. That would be the best way.
13 Q. In any event, they're at 20 and 21. So
14 those are guest units, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And then we have Davellin, and she was
17 staying at that Extension 50, wherever that is,
18 right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. That's somewhere other than the guest units
21 and it may be the theater?
22 A. I believe it's one of the rooms in --
23 there's two bedrooms in the theater.
24 Q. All right. And the other bedroom in the
25 theater is 51, is it not?
26 A. I believe so.
27 Q. All right. So it shows that she was there
28 from overnight; is that right? 7151
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And then it shows that she went out at 2:25
3 in the afternoon, right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And came back at 6:01 in the evening?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And it appears, if we do some detective work
8 there, down at the bottom, Chris Carter took the
9 gray van out and apparently was driving -- was the
10 driver of the van, and drove her out at 1425 and
11 back at 1801, the same times; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And then Rio and Simone were also on the
14 ranch; is that correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And it looks like they had been staying
17 overnight, right?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. And that they went out with Davellin driven
20 by Chris Carter at 1425 and came back at 1801, at
21 the same time; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And it looks like Rio was staying in the
24 same room as Gavin; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. All right. So that's 3-4, and now
27 they're -- we're going to go to -- we're going to go
28 to 191. 7152
1 Just for the record, Your Honor, it's not a
2 big thing, but it's just a thing. As I'm paging
3 through here, I'm seeing that these are a little bit
4 out of order. It goes from 188 to 193 to 191 in the
5 exhibit book. I don't know that there's any
6 significance, but I just --
7 THE COURT: It's the same in my copy.
8 MR. SANGER: That's fine.
9 Q. So we go to 191, and that shows for 3-5,
10 March the 5th, 2003, correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And here we show, once again, Gavin in 20,
13 guest unit?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Star, guest unit?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Both there from overnight, and no indication
18 that they left; is that correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. We have Davellin -- and I'll persist in
21 saying “Davellin,” even though it's spelled
22 countless ways in these logs; is that all right?
23 A. That's fine.
24 Q. You knew eventually her name was Davellin,
25 is that correct?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. So we have Davellin again at 50, which is
28 apparently in the theater; is that right? 7153
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And she stayed overnight, or she had been
3 staying overnight, and there's no indication she
4 checked out; is that right?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And then you have Janet, who's staying in
7 one of the guest units; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And again, she was staying from overnight
10 and there's no indication that she checked out,
11 correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. And then you have Rio, who is apparently
14 staying in the same guest unit as Gavin; is that
15 correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And Rio was there from overnight, and on
18 this date, March the 5th, it appears that both Rio
19 and Simone left about 7:30 in the evening; is that
20 correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Let's go to 195. Showing MJ00195.
23 That's for 3-6-03; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Here we show Janet Arvizo is now in Unit 4,
26 which is Extension 21, correct?
27 A. Correct.
28 Q. And she had been staying overnight? 7154
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And then we have Davellin, who's in Unit 3.
3 She had been staying overnight, correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And in fact, Gavin and Star are also shown
6 in Unit 3, staying overnight; is that correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. I'll put up MJ00198, which is for March the
9 7th, so once again the next day. And let's take the
10 easy ones first. We have Gavin, Star and Davellin
11 Arvizo, they show they're in Unit 3, which is
12 Extension No. 20, right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that they were there overnight, and they
15 continued to remain overnight, correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Then you have Janet Arvizo, who was logged
18 in for Unit 4. It's crossed out. Do you have any
19 idea why it was crossed out?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And then there's a star and a star; is that
22 correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. And what does the star tend to mean?
25 A. Generally it means there was no time given,
26 written in, no time given written out, so it wasn't
27 written out. The fact that it's crossed out can
28 mean that she wasn't there. I don't know. 7155
1 Q. It shows she was there the day before?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. And then if we look here, we see
4 that Frank and Vinnie -- it says, “Vinnie Black.”
5 That's the same Vinnie. There was one Frank and one
6 Vinnie throughout this, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So Frank and Vinnie, if I may use the first
9 names, are staying in the video library, and they
10 were there at the beginning of the day, at midnight,
11 and they were there at midnight the next --
12 A. Next day, yes.
13 Q. Next day, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Now we go to 2001. 2001, I'm sorry.
16 Too many numbers. Sorry. 00201, which is 3-8 of
17 .03, correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. The next day. And on that day, the logs
20 show that we have Gavin, Star, and Davellin as well
21 as Frank and Vinnie all there the entire 24-hour
22 period?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. So they didn't come; they didn't go. All
25 right.
26 Now we go to -- oops. Again, these seem to
27 be a little bit out of order. 204 comes before 203.
28 But in any event, I'm going to put 204 up, which is 7156
1 3-9-03. So that's the next day.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And on this day we have Gavin, Star,
4 Davellin, all there the entire time, correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And then you have Frank and Vinnie, who were
7 there from the night before, and they seem to leave
8 at about 3:43 in the afternoon, correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And then they come back at -- the two of
11 them come back at the same time, at about 8:43 at
12 night, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And then they stay overnight; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. We also on that day have other guests of
17 course, but we have Rio and Simone arriving at ten
18 minutes after noon, correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And then they stayed overnight?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. SANGER: Now, may I approach the witness
23 with the book?
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 MR. SANGER: Let me put that page back
26 first.
27 Let me just say it out loud if I'm going to
28 say it to the prosecutor. What I'm going to show 7157
1 the witness, keeping the pages in order and hoping
2 not to trip and drop them all over the place, we
3 have page 203 and then we have page 33697, and then
4 there's page 121, which is followed by page 33698,
5 and I want to ask the witness if that page, 121,
6 belongs in the sequence here. And that's what I
7 intended to approach him to do, if that's all right
8 with the Court. And that gives counsel an idea of
9 why I'm doing it.
10 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Sure.
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 MR. SANGER: Thank you.
13 Q. Okay. Now, I'm not supposed to talk up
14 here, but I just want to tell you this. Obviously
15 these pages, we're going to keep them in the same
16 order. It's just too hard to put them back in the
17 binder as we went along.
18 Here we have page 121 and I'm going to ask
19 you if that belongs in that particular position, and
20 I'm going to ask you to take a look towards the
21 beginning of the book. And I'll try to give you a
22 better indication, when I get back to my book, as to
23 where that page may have come from.
24 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Can I just interrupt?
25 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel
26 table.)
27 MR. SANGER: I don't think this is the
28 biggest thing in the world, but if you look at 121 7158
1 that's in the book right there where you're looking
2 at it --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- does that appear to be in the correct
5 sequence? Forget about the numbers at the bottom.
6 A. Right.
7 Q. That will just confuse us for the moment.
8 A. This looks like one of the pages that we
9 looked at yesterday.
10 Q. In fact, if you look back to -- hesitant to
11 have you flip that because it might fall apart.
12 A. I'll do my best.
13 Q. If you look back at Exhibit 334, and now
14 look at the bottom --
15 A. Any idea how far back that is?
16 Q. 334 is just --
17 Okay. May I approach again? It might be --
18 THE COURT: Yes. He's referring to an
19 exhibit number, not the page numbers now.
20 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
21 Q. BY MR. SANGER: No, no, it's not your fault.
22 Okay. There's Exhibit 334, and now -- if I may,
23 I'll just speak here briefly -- if we look at the
24 bottom, and you flip forward to 121, which is
25 MJ00121, does that look like that's the same page?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. All right. And -- all right. May I have
28 the book back? 7159
1 Do you want to look at it, Counsel?
2 Okay. Thank you.
3 And -- okay. And this is just the way the
4 exhibit is, so we have to leave the exhibit the same
5 way here. I'm now going to put this copy of 121 up
6 on the board, just so we're all oriented.
7 There's no date on it; is that correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And you've gone back and you've seen -- this
10 is a second copy of a page we looked at yesterday;
11 is that right?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. And that was really the page from February
14 the 8th of 2003 -- oops, let me make sure I said
15 that right. I'm sorry, February the 7th of 2003,
16 correct, when CBS Entertainment was at the ranch
17 with Ed Bradley and Jack Sussman, and so on?
18 A. I don't know from yesterday, but if that's
19 the date that it says on the paper, then that's the
20 day that it was from.
21 Q. I will represent that's in between the pages
22 for February the 7th in Exhibit 334.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right? Okay. So that has nothing to do
25 with the current sequence then, in March. All
26 right?
27 A. Correct.
28 Q. Now, on -- on the -- 7160
1 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Counsel?
2 MR. SANGER: Yeah.
3 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Just for point of
4 reference -- it's between the 7th and the 9th.
5 So it's not keyed to the 7th.
6 MR. SANGER: Counsel is saying it's between
7 the 7th and the 9th. Suffice it to say it's in the
8 book in February and we can let the exhibit speak
9 for itself. It doesn't have a date on it.
10 Is that all right, Your Honor?
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 MR. SANGER: All right. Thank you.
13 Q. Now, for this particular time period --
14 THE COURT: For a minute I thought the clock
15 was going backwards.
16 (Laughter.)
17 THE COURT: Go ahead.
18 MR. SANGER: We'd like to start with
19 February 7th, if we could, please.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 MR. SANGER: And do it all over again.
22 THE WITNESS: No, we wouldn't.
23 Q. BY MR. SANGER: No, we wouldn't. I think we
24 all agree with that.
25 We are almost through, which is always a
26 terrible thing to hear from a lawyer. But I think
27 it's true in this case.
28 All right. I'm going to show you now 7161
1 033698. We're back on Exhibit 335, okay? So we're
2 going to put this up. Now, I will represent to you,
3 and counsel can disagree if he wants, there does not
4 appear to be the regular guest information page
5 for --
6 MR. SNEDDON: Can't see it.
7 MR. SANGER: I know. It will focus in a
8 moment.
9 Q. There does not appear to be the regular
10 guest information page on March the 10th in this set
11 where it lists who's staying at the ranch.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. I'll just represent that. And this -- I'm
14 hoping while I'm talking it's going to focus.
15 There we go. Okay. But this appears to be
16 one of the other pages for March the 10th, 2003; is
17 that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 THE COURT: Can we take a break here?
20 MR. SANGER: Fine.
21 (Recess taken.)
22 --o0o--
23
24
25
26
27
28 7162
1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2
3
4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE )
5 OF CALIFORNIA, )
6 Plaintiff, )
7 -vs- ) No. 1133603
8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
9 Defendant. )
10
11
12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR,
13 CSR #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby
14 certify:
15 That the foregoing pages 7119 through 7162
16 contain a true and correct transcript of the
17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled
18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at
19 said proceedings on April 21, 2005, and thereafter
20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided
21 transcription under my direction.
22 DATED: Santa Maria, California,
23 April 21, 2005.
24
25
26
27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 7163
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
5
6
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
13
14
15
16
17 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
18
19 THURSDAY, APRIL 21, 2005
20
21 8:30 A.M.
22
23 (PAGES 7164 THROUGH 7325)
24
25
26
27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 7164
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney -and-
8 MAG NICOLA, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
9 1112 Santa Barbara Street Santa Barbara, California 93101
10
11
12 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU
13 BY: THOMAS A. MESEREAU, JR., ESQ. -and-
14 SUSAN C. YU, ESQ. 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700
15 Los Angeles, California 90067
16 -and-
17 SANGER & SWYSEN BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ.
18 -and- CHRIS DUNKLE, ESQ.
19 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C Santa Barbara, California 93101
20 -and-
21 OXMAN and JAROSCAK
22 BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ. 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard
23 Santa Fe Springs, California 90670 (Not Present)
24
25
26 For Witness BAKER LAW OFFICES Chris Carter: BY: JEFFREY H. SEGAL, ESQ.
27 333 North Rancho Drive Suite 830
28 Las Vegas, Nevada 89106 7165
1 I N D E X
2
3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index. Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index.
6 Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index. Mr. Oxman is listed as “O” on index.
7
8
9 PLAINTIFF'S WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
10
11 BARRON, Brian 7174-A 7195-SA
12 7209-A 7211-SA (Further) (Further)
13 7213-A
14 (Further)
15 CLEAVES, Stephen 7214-SN 7218-SA
16 SUTCLIFFE, Timothy 7223-SN 7226-SA 7229-SN (Re-called)
17 ROONEY, Timothy 7232-SN 7235-SA
18 MOELLER, Steven 7238-SN 7246-SA
19 KLAPAKIS, Jeff 7250-A
20 (Re-called)
21
22 MONTGOMERY, Examination by The Court - Page 7317 Cynthia C.
23 (Nonjury)
24
25
26
27
28 7166
1 THE COURT: Counsel?
2 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, could we have the
3 screen, please?
4 Q. Where we left off was MJ0033698 is the
5 identifying number on the bottom, and on the top it
6 says, “3-10-03.”
7 And what I'm going to do, with the Court's
8 permission, is I'm going to put this back in the
9 book where it was and approach the witness, if I
10 may.
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 MR. SANGER: I had time during the break to
13 put all the pages back in the clamps so they won't
14 fall all over the place.
15 And before I get up, what I'm going to do --
16 ask you to do, we had established that this page,
17 33698, with Jack Sussman on the top, was out of
18 order, and that was really from February, right?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. I'm going to give you the book -- we have to
21 leave it the way it was anyway. I'm going to give
22 you the book here, and I'm going to ask you to look
23 in this time period, and see if you have the guest
24 information page for March the 10th, 2003, or if
25 that page seems to be missing from this, all right?
26 A. All right.
27 Q. And you're welcome to flip back and forth,
28 do whatever you want, and then we'll -- I'm not 7167
1 going to ask you to look through the entire book,
2 but in the general vicinity.
3 A. In the general vicinity after it, I don't
4 see it.
5 Q. Look before.
6 A. I don't see it.
7 MR. SANGER: May I approach?
8 THE COURT: Yes.
9 MR. SANGER: Thank you.
10 Thank you, sir.
11 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
12 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Okay. So that brings us
13 back to putting that same page back up, which is
14 033698, all right? And we looked at that and that
15 does appear to be from the 10th; is that correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. But since the guest information log page is
18 not there, I'm going to ask you to take a look at
19 this, which is part of the gate activity log. And
20 at 2145 hours, there's an indication there that
21 Janet Arvizo did not return with Vinnie and Gavin.
22 Do you see that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. So trying to fill in the gaps on
25 a page that's missing, it appears, from that entry,
26 that Vinnie and Gavin Arvizo came back to the ranch
27 at 2145 hours, correct?
28 A. Yes. 7168
1 Q. And that Janet Arvizo did not come back at
2 that time?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. And we can't tell from that anything about
5 Star and Davellin, but at least we can tell that
6 much, correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. All right. And by the way, the -- just to
9 save some time here, I'll put that same page back up
10 again.
11 When these -- when these entries are made on
12 this page, they are made contemporaneously with the
13 event that's occurring; is that correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. So when it says “Time” there, “2145,” that
16 would be the time the gate officer noted that Vinnie
17 and Gavin had returned; is that correct?
18 A. According to this, it would be that Janet
19 did not return with --
20 Q. With them.
21 A. -- Vinnie and Gavin.
22 Q. So Vinnie and Gavin returned, Janet's not in
23 the car or whatever, and that would have been at
24 2145 hours, correct?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Okay. Now, having said that, let's go to
27 0033701, which is for March the 11th, the next day.
28 And here we have Gavin, Star, and Davellin, whose 7169
1 name is yet spelled a different way, all staying in
2 Unit 3; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. And it looks like they were
5 there overnight from the night before, correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And then it appears that they all left at
8 1645 hours?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. To go someplace off the ranch, correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And they came back at 1829 hours, correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. So they returned to the ranch at that point
15 and there's no indication that they left again, so
16 you would assume they were there again overnight; is
17 that correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. If you look down at the bottom of that page,
20 it appears that Chris Carter checked out the gray
21 van, correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And he was out and in earlier in the
24 morning, but if you look at the last two entries
25 there, he left at 1645 hours, and he came back at
26 1829 hours, correct?
27 A. Correct.
28 Q. So it appears that he gave a ride to the 7170
1 Arvizos?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. And then we'll go to the next
4 page. Excuse me.
5 And, Your Honor, this page, for the record,
6 in the book is the next exhibit page to Exhibit 30 --
7 or, I'm sorry, 335. It's the next exhibit page
8 following MJ033701. The number seems to be cut off
9 at the bottom. I take it it's the same way in the
10 Court's book.
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 MR. SANGER: So I'm referring to the
13 numberless page.
14 THE COURT: You can see half of it, can't
15 you?
16 MR. SANGER: Well, that's an optimistic view
17 of this. Let's see if we can get this to focus.
18 That's all I can see on mine. Is that what
19 the Court is seeing in your book?
20 THE COURT: Mine's a little clearer.
21 MR. SANGER: The next page is about half.
22 I'm wondering if we're looking at the same page.
23 THE COURT: 702.
24 MR. SANGER: I believe that's the next page,
25 Your Honor. This is -- well, I don't want to argue
26 with the Court. I don't know what you're looking
27 at, but that's what we have, and it's the same in my
28 copy that was given to us by the government. 7171
1 THE COURT: Okay. It is a different page.
2 I don't have the beginning page --
3 MR. SANGER: All right.
4 THE COURT: -- which is all right. That's
5 the official exhibit book. So you go ahead with
6 it.
7 MR. SANGER: All right. So in the official
8 exhibit book, this follows MJ033701 and there's just
9 the very top of a number there.
10 Q. And what it is, for the record, is the gate
11 activity log for 3-11-03, correct?
12 A. Correct. I'm sorry.
13 Q. I'm sorry. I was talking to the Court, and
14 now I'm talking to you, so, all right.
15 It's a little hard to read there, but -- and
16 I'm happy to bring it to you to look at. But it
17 does appear that on the third line down, it says
18 “C/O.”
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And that would, again, be continued from the
21 night before; is that right?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. And it says Janet Arvizo did not return with
24 Vinnie and Gavin; is that correct?
25 A. Correct.
26 Q. So it's another notation in the logbook for
27 the next day that from overnight from the day
28 before, Janet Arvizo did not return; is that right? 7172
1 A. That's -- it's just to let the next shift
2 know that that was written on the page before.
3 Q. All right.
4 A. Or the day before.
5 Q. Okay. Now I'm going to go to MJ033703, and
6 this is the last page that I'm going to show you.
7 A. Excellent.
8 Q. Sigh of relief that caused a veritable
9 windstorm up here by the podium.
10 Okay. That's not going to focus. There we
11 go. Okay. MJ033703, this is on March the 12th,
12 2003, the next day?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. And on this day, we see Gavin,
15 Star, and Davellin, and it shows that they stayed in
16 Unit 3; is that correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. And that they had been there overnight,
19 correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And it shows at 12:15, or 15 minutes after
22 noon on that day, March 12th, 2003, that they left;
23 is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And it shows further that -- if you look
26 there, it says, “Frank, video library,” stayed
27 overnight, in essence, and “stayed overnight.”
28 And right below that it says, “Vinnie, video 7173
1 library.” He was there from the night before. And
2 it shows at 12:15 he apparently left at the same
3 time as Gavin, Star, and Davellin, correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And he was gone from the ranch from 15
6 minutes after noon until 7:49 at night, when he
7 returned to the ranch --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- correct?
10 And then he stayed overnight following that;
11 is that correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 MR. SANGER: And I have no further
14 questions.
15 Do you want this book here?
16 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Yes, please.
17
18 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS:
20 Q. All right. Good morning, Mr. Barron.
21 A. Good morning.
22 Q. Unfortunately I'm going to have to return to
23 these records, but I'm going to give us a little bit
24 of a break, ask you a few questions beforehand.
25 A. Certainly.
26 Q. Mr. Sanger asked you about the intruders on
27 the ranch.
28 A. Yes. 7174
1 Q. Can you characterize what -- any
2 generalities concerning what type of intruders they
3 would be? What would their purpose be to try and
4 get onto the ranch?
5 MR. SANGER: I'm going to object. That's
6 vague.
7 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I'll begin by asking you a
8 foundational question. I'll withdraw that question.
9 Q. Was there anything that these individuals
10 had in common, any generalities you could make in
11 terms of their motive to be on that property?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What was that?
14 A. To see Mr. Jackson in the ranch.
15 Q. So these were fans?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Predominantly not physically threatening to
18 Mr. Jackson?
19 MR. SANGER: I object. Calls for
20 speculation and leading.
21 THE COURT: Sustained.
22 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Did these fans, in your
23 opinion as a security guard and based on your
24 observations of them, appear to present any physical
25 threat to Mr. Jackson, in general?
26 MR. SANGER: Objection; lack of foundation.
27 THE COURT: Sustained.
28 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Did you see these 7175
1 intruders on the ranch on occasion?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How many occasions?
4 A. Several. Not many came on the ranch while I
5 was working.
6 Q. During the five years you were there?
7 A. Yes. We did have --
8 MR. SANGER: Objection, Your Honor. The
9 witness is trying to answer the question.
10 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: How many were there?
11 MR. SANGER: Excuse me.
12 THE COURT: I think the last question was,
13 “During the five years you were there?” Answer,
14 “Yes, we did have...,” and then you were
15 interrupted.
16 THE WITNESS: We did have intruders
17 throughout my working there. When I was working, at
18 the times that I was working, maybe a handful, five
19 to ten.
20 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Okay. And in terms
21 of -- in terms of staying on top of the potential
22 security threat from fans entering the ranch, were
23 you generally apprised when other intruders entered
24 the property when you weren't there?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. So this was part of your job as a security
27 officer to be aware of who might want to get on the
28 property? 7176
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. And during the course of your
3 employment during this five-year period, can you
4 state whether or not these intruders in general
5 appeared to present any physical threat to Mr.
6 Jackson?
7 A. In general, not much physical threat. There
8 were a few, a couple, that we felt could. Maybe not
9 to him, but we were not just there to protect him.
10 I mean, there was lots of other people on the ranch.
11 Q. Okay. And what do you mean when you say
12 they might not present a threat to Mr. Jackson, but
13 might present a threat to someone else?
14 A. For the most part, if Mr. Jackson was inside
15 a building, he would be fairly secure.
16 Q. Uh-huh.
17 A. We didn't have a dozen security guards to
18 post at every door or anywhere -- I mean everywhere
19 that we could possibly have an intruder on the
20 ranch. But there were -- there were a few that we
21 were concerned with when they were seen in the area
22 or did happen to get on the ranch.
23 Q. Okay. In terms of Frank Cascio, you've
24 testified that you've seen him with Mr. Jackson
25 about 75 to 100 times. He's visited the ranch over
26 100 times. Is that accurate?
27 A. Absolutely.
28 Q. Are there any guests that you're aware of 7177
1 that you would say had visited Mr. Jackson on more
2 occasions than Mr. Cascio?
3 A. Possibly Miko Brando and his family.
4 Q. Okay. Anybody else?
5 A. I can't think of any right off the top of my
6 head.
7 Q. And would Mr. Cascio typically be on the
8 property -- well, let me strike that.
9 Would Mr. Cascio always be on the property
10 when his siblings were with him?
11 A. Not always. But most of the time.
12 Q. Who is Miko Brando?
13 A. Marlon Brando's son.
14 Q. In terms of his relationship with Jackson,
15 is he an employee?
16 A. I think so. I don't know. I'm sure -- I
17 know that they're friends. I don't know for certain
18 if he is employed by Mr. Jackson.
19 Q. Okay. You said that you were certain that
20 Janet Arvizo had access to the house. Did you ever
21 see her in the house?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge to base
24 that statement on?
25 A. She was a guest. Her children had access to
26 the house. I would just, as a security guard at
27 that time, put two and two together and say she had
28 access to the house. 7178
1 Q. So that's an assumption?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. SANGER: Objection. Leading;
4 argumentative.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: You testified that
7 typically, ideally I should say, that you would be
8 notified when guests would be leaving Neverland?
9 A. Ideally, yes.
10 Q. Would that -- and that would include
11 children as well as adults?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And that rule was -- is it fair to say that
14 that rule was -- generally was not really enforced
15 or followed very often?
16 MR. SANGER: I will object, Your Honor.
17 First of all, it's vague. And secondly, if it
18 wasn't vague, it would be leading.
19 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Well, I'll strike the
20 question and ask another one.
21 Q. Can you tell me whether that rule was
22 followed or not?
23 A. Not often.
24 Q. In terms of being allowed off the property,
25 you talked a little bit about children, whether or
26 not they'd be allowed off the property.
27 If a 16-year-old walked up to the gate and
28 said, “I want to take a walk down the road,” would 7179
Subject: April 21, 2005 
Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:34 am
