1 A. Frank.
2 Q. -- it was Frank?
3 Did you see that document on more than one
4 occasion?
5 A. Wait. Best I remember. It could have been
6 Vinnie. Vinnie or Frank. I don’t know.
7 Q. Take a moment. Take a moment.
8 A. Uh-huh. I think -- the best I can remember,
9 I think -- yeah, the best I can remember was Vinnie,
10 then Frank, then both. That’s the best I can
11 remember.
12 Q. Let’s start with Vinnie, whether he was
13 first or second. Do you remember what Vinnie
14 specifically said to you about that document?
15 A. “Sign here.”
16 Q. Did he explain what it was?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did he explain what it was for?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did he give you any detail at all about that
21 document or why he wanted you to sign it?
22 A. No.
23 Q. How about Frank? When he talked to you
24 individually, what did he say about that document?
25 A. Nothing. Just, “Sign it.”
26 Q. Do you remember when this was relative to
27 the video that you had already done?
28 A. After. 6207
1 Q. Do you know approximately how long after?
2 A. No, I wouldn’t be able to tell you.
3 Q. Okay. Did Frank give you any direction as
4 to why he wanted you to sign that document?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And when the two of them were together and
7 spoke to you about that document, did either one of
8 them, in the course of that conversation, say
9 anything to you about why they wanted you to sign
10 it?
11 A. No.
12 Q. All right. Now, the document that you have
13 in front of you --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- has your name preprinted; is that
16 correct?
17 A. Uh --
18 Q. At the bottom of the page?
19 A. Oh, I see. Yeah. At the bottom.
20 Q. And was that how it was at the time that
21 they had handed it to you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you, in fact, refuse to sign that
24 document?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. You never did?
27 A. Huh-uh.
28 Q. In the course of your -- 6208
1 A. I got in trouble for that.
2 Q. -- discussions with either Vinnie or Frank
3 about your signing or not signing that document, did
4 you make a demand for money?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you ever ask them for money?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you tell them why you didn’t want to
9 sign the document?
10 A. Because my signing days were over. That’s
11 it.
12 Q. What does that mean?
13 A. They had me sign a bunch of different
14 things --
15 Q. Were there --
16 A. -- over the course of from Miami to this.
17 I’m talking in total. And that’s it. You know,
18 “Let me go. Let my kids go.” That’s all I wanted.
19 Q. All right. Ultimately you did not sign that
20 document?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you see if there were similar copies of
23 that document but with the names of your children?
24 A. Yes. Yes.
25 Q. Did they show them to your children at all?
26 A. I -- they may have. They may have. Because
27 they had a period of time when they were alone with
28 the children. 6209
1 Q. Do you know from personal knowledge? In
2 other words, did your children ever sign those
3 documents in your presence?
4 A. In my presence, never.
5 Q. All right. Do you have any information, one
6 way or the other, as to whether or not they
7 ultimately signed that release on 812?
8 A. I don’t know about this release.
9 Q. Okay. Is that, in fact, an accurate copy of
10 the release that was shown to you at Neverland?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were you shown that release on more than one
13 occasion?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. On how many separate occasions were you
16 shown that release?
17 A. I wouldn’t be able to tell you, Mr. Zonen.
18 Q. Can you give us a sense of it?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. More than once?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. ZONEN: Your Honor, I would move to
23 introduce 812 into evidence at this time.
24 MR. MESEREAU: No objection.
25 THE COURT: It’s admitted.
26 MR. ZONEN: Just one moment, Your Honor,
27 please.
28 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel 6210
1 table.)
2 MR. ZONEN: May I approach the witness, Your
3 Honor?
4 THE COURT: Yes.
5 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Miss Arvizo, I’m showing you
6 No. 814 for identification. No. 814 for
7 identification. I’d like to -- I’d like you to take
8 a look at this, please. Take a moment and look at
9 it.
10 A. Uh-huh. Okay.
11 Q. Is that a document you’ve seen before?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Where did you see that before?
14 A. I think I seen this in -- I think I seen
15 this in Neverland.
16 Q. Okay. Is that your handwriting?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you know whose handwriting it is?
19 A. This is Vinnie’s.
20 Q. Was that drafted in your presence?
21 A. I don’t think so.
22 Q. Turn the document over, if you would.
23 A. Oh, my God.
24 Q. Excuse me. Tell us what that is on the
25 other side of the document.
26 A. It’s the same one.
27 Q. In other words, it’s --
28 BAILIFF CORTEZ: Your microphone, sir. 6211
1 MR. ZONEN: Okay. We’re back on.
2 Q. I’ve now asked you to turn this document
3 over on the other side.
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. And what is it on the other side?
6 A. It’s the same one.
7 Q. It’s the copy of exhibit number what?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I’m sorry, exhibit number what? Tell us
10 what exhibit that is. I think it’s 812. No?
11 A. Yes, 812.
12 Q. So the back side of the one that I just
13 showed you which has Vinnie’s handwriting --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- is, in fact, a copy of 812?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is it the one that has your name preprinted
18 or one of the kid’s?
19 A. It’s mine, preprinted.
20 Q. Did Vinnie ever show you that document, the
21 written one?
22 A. I don’t -- I can’t remember. I --
23 Q. Do you have a recollection of having seen it
24 at some point in time?
25 A. Yes, I think so. At Neverland.
26 Q. Did you ever sign a handwritten document?
27 A. A handwritten document?
28 Q. Yes. 6212
1 A. No.
2 Q. Is your signature on that document?
3 A. No, it isn’t.
4 Q. But your name is on it?
5 A. But my name is on it.
6 Q. Does that appear to be some form of a model
7 release?
8 A. It says, “This model release....”
9 Q. Was there ever a discussion between you and
10 Vinnie or you and Frank about coming up with some
11 kind of a release that was suitable for you?
12 A. No.
13 Q. The release that you’re holding in your hand
14 right now, the printed form on the back of that
15 page, that was presented to you before or after you
16 did the video rebuttal?
17 A. After.
18 Q. You can go ahead and put those down.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Miss Arvizo, 812 that I showed you
21 initially, the one that does not have something on
22 the back --
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. -- is that, in fact, an accurate copy of
25 the release that was given to you by both Vinnie and
26 Frank?
27 A. Yes.
28 MR. ZONEN: I’d move -- is 812 in evidence 6213
1 already?
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 MR. ZONEN: It is in evidence. Okay. Never
4 mind.
5 MR. ZONEN: Tom, do you want to stipulate to
6 this coming in?
7 MR. MESEREAU: No.
8 MR. ZONEN: Then I’ll lay the foundation.
9 Excuse me.
10 Q. After the social workers left and your kids
11 went back to Neverland, where did you go on that
12 day?
13 A. Well, that began the process of getting the
14 passports and visas. The first step was getting the
15 birth certificates.
16 Q. All right. And did you, in fact, get birth
17 certificates that day?
18 A. On that day was the application. And when I
19 arrived there, I had to do -- they -- I had to write
20 a little kind of paragraph stating that it was an
21 emergency; that I had to get out -- something about
22 out of the country. I don’t recall, but they wanted
23 it fast enough.
24 Q. Did they say -- who is “they”?
25 A. Michael’s people.
26 Q. Well, somebody in particular had you write
27 something?
28 A. Vinnie. And Frank over the phone. Frank 6214
1 never left our side, whether he was on the phone or
2 in person.
3 Q. Vinnie asked you to write something that
4 stated it was an emergency?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did he tell you what that was for?
7 A. Well, that’s what -- the information that he
8 had got, because he had asked the birth certificate
9 people that he needed it immediately. And they had
10 told him, “No, the only way we can do it, if there’s
11 an emergency.” And so he had told me that to write
12 it’s an emergency.
13 Q. Who was it who told you, “You’re going to
14 Brazil now”?
15 A. Frank, Vinnie.
16 Q. What did you tell them in response to
17 whether or not you wanted to go to Brazil?
18 A. They knew I didn’t want to go.
19 Q. Did you tell them that?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Tell us why you didn’t want to go.
22 A. I didn’t want to go because first, first and
23 main reason, is Gavin’s doctor is here. He has to
24 see an oncologist and a nephrologist. He depends on
25 those doctors, first. And second, I waited a
26 lifetime to find someone I could give a valentine
27 to, and that was Jay.
28 Q. You didn’t want to leave that relationship? 6215
1 A. No, I didn’t.
2 Q. Did you tell this to either Vinnie or Frank?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What did they say?
5 A. Well, the part about no, no going to Brazil.
6 Not the part about Jay.
7 Q. Did you talk to either Vinnie or Frank about
8 medical issues?
9 A. Yes. I told him I couldn’t -- you know, I’m
10 trying to negotiate for mine and my children’s
11 freedom --
12 Q. Uh-huh.
13 A. -- by saying, you know, “Sorry, I can’t go,”
14 you know. “The doctors are here.”
15 And nope, still got to go.
16 Q. Okay. Why did you ultimately agree to go?
17 I mean, why not just say, “I’m not going”?
18 A. Because of my parents’ life, my -- and Jay’s
19 life.
20 Q. What does that mean, “your parents’ life”
21 and “Jay’s life”?
22 A. Well --
23 Q. What did that have to do with going to
24 Brazil?
25 A. That they were going to be killed.
26 Q. Who told you that?
27 A. Frank. Frank became the worst out of all of
28 them. 6216
1 Q. Did you have any additional conversations
2 with either Dieter or Ronald?
3 A. No, the Germans are out of the picture.
4 They’re no longer in the picture. Slowly -- there
5 was a transition period where Ronald and Dieter were
6 replaced by Frank and Vinnie. Frank and Vinnie took
7 the spots of Ronald and Dieter. The Germans are out
8 of the picture now.
9 Q. Did you tell them that you were going to go
10 to Brazil?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you start doing things toward going to
13 Brazil?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. All right. And you started to mention
16 something about birth certificates.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. Now, on this -- was it the same day
19 as the interview that you had with the department --
20 with the social workers that you went and started
21 gathering up materials?
22 A. Yes. Same day.
23 Q. What materials did you gather?
24 A. The only thing was the birth certificate
25 application. They -- they assumed that we were
26 going to get the application on the spot, and so --
27 MR. ZONEN: Counsel?
28 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel 6217
1 table.)
2 MR. ZONEN: May I approach the witness, Your
3 Honor?
4 THE COURT: Yes.
5 MR. ZONEN: Did you want these separate from
6 the notebooks at the time we introduce them?
7 THE COURT: I’m sorry?
8 MR. ZONEN: I think I’ve made the decision
9 already. I’ll withdraw that question.
10 Q. I’m going to show you three items that are
11 part of one exhibit. We will ultimately staple it
12 together. At the moment it’s three separate pages.
13 And this exhibit number is No. 259. I’d
14 like you to look at the three different pages. Do
15 you know what this is?
16 A. Yes, this is an application for the birth
17 certificate.
18 Q. All right. And have you seen these
19 documents before?
20 A. Yeah. This is on -- when we did the
21 application thing, when we had a paper.
22 Q. At the time you actually got the
23 applications?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. And who were you with when you got those
26 applications?
27 A. Vinnie, and the people that were following
28 us. I always had a crew following us. 6218
1 Q. There were others in a separate car?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know who was in the separate car?
4 A. No, I never knew. And that was the scary
5 part. Vinnie would always point them out to me.
6 Q. Go ahead and look at this document now,
7 which is No. 259.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And are those, in fact, applications for
10 each of you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. Whose signature is on those
13 applications?
14 A. There’s no signature. Just printed.
15 Q. It’s just printed out?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is any of that your handwriting?
18 A. Yes, it’s all my writing.
19 Q. And then each of the names are on here; is
20 that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And each of the children’s names are on
23 here?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Are those, in fact, accurate copies of those
26 applications for birth certificates?
27 A. I feel they are.
28 Q. Do you remember where it was they were 6219
1 deposited?
2 A. In Norwalk. It’s by the 605 freeway.
3 Q. Okay. Now, the third document in
4 here titled “The Registrar Recorder” --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- does have a signature on it, does it not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And whose signature is that?
9 A. That’s mine. This is that emergency thing.
10 Q. All right. And that you recall signing?
11 A. Yes. Yes.
12 Q. And the date on it is what, now?
13 A. The date on it is February 20th, the day of
14 the CPS meeting. Afterwards.
15 MR. ZONEN: I would move to introduce into
16 evidence Item No. 259.
17 MR. MESEREAU: No objection.
18 THE COURT: It’s admitted.
19 MR. ZONEN: May I approach through here,
20 Your Honor?
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 MR. ZONEN: If you would staple them
23 together as one exhibit.
24 THE COURT: When you previously marked that
25 exhibit, you meant it to have three pages when you
26 prepared your notebook?
27 MR. ZONEN: Yes.
28 Q. Miss Arvizo, I’m going to show you now 6220
1 Exhibit No. 2-6-0. No. 2-6-0. 11 pages, separate.
2 We will staple them together as one exhibit, No.
3 2-6-0.
4 I’d like you to turn through the pages of
5 that exhibit, please. And when you’ve gone through
6 each of the pages, let us know.
7 A. Read them?
8 Q. You don’t need to read it in its entirety.
9 A. Oh, okay.
10 Q. Just gain familiarity with them.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Have you seen these documents before?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. I’m going to separate them now
15 and I’m going to show you four specific pages on
16 here of the documents.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Take a look at those four pages. Tell me
19 what they are.
20 A. It says up here, “Application for U.S.
21 Passport.”
22 Q. All right. Are these, in fact, four pages
23 of applications for a passport for you and your
24 children?
25 A. Yes. This isn’t my writing.
26 Q. All right. That’s my next question. Let’s
27 begin with -- and perhaps what we can do is we can
28 number these. This exhibit is 260. We’re going to 6221
1 number these four pages specifically 260-A, B, C and
2 D. And if I can have four tags for that. Well,
3 let’s do it as separate tags. 260-A, B, C and D.
4 And then we’ll distinguish them that way.
5 Let’s start with the --
6 THE COURT: Do you realize that exhibit is
7 in, already admitted in its entirety?
8 MR. ZONEN: Would you prefer to distinguish
9 these four pages from the other -- oh, it’s already
10 in evidence?
11 THE COURT: It’s in evidence in its entirety.
12 MR. ZONEN: Can we just label it with a pen,
13 then, those four pages on the outside of the vinyl
14 cover, A, B, C and D? Can we do that?
15 THE COURT: All right. They have numbers
16 within them, don’t they?
17 MR. ZONEN: I --
18 THE COURT: 821 and 822?
19 MR. ZONEN: Do they?
20 THE COURT: They do in the book you gave me.
21 That’s in the bottom in the right-hand corner.
22 MR. ZONEN: Yes, they do.
23 THE COURT: Could you just reference those
24 numbers?
25 MR. ZONEN: I sure can.
26 THE COURT: All right.
27 MR. ZONEN: I sure can. Let me just have a
28 moment to make sure I have the right numbers. 6222
1 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel
2 table.)
3 MR. ZONEN: Your Honor, the numbers that I’m
4 looking at in the lower right-hand corner, mine are
5 in red, is that what you have in your notebook?
6 THE COURT: They’re not in red, but --
7 MR. ZONEN: Are those numbers Q-1, Q-2, Q-3
8 and Q-4?
9 THE COURT: No.
10 MR. ZONEN: Okay. That’s my concern.
11 THE COURT: Go ahead the way you were going
12 to do it. That’s fine.
13 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Let’s do it the way -- we’re
14 just going to take one, two, three and four, four
15 documents. And let’s start with the first one, and
16 write -- on the vinyl on the lower left hand, just
17 write “A,” the letter “A.”
18 And this one is whose application, please?
19 A. This one is mine.
20 Q. All right. Is your signature on it?
21 A. Yes, my signature is on it.
22 Q. Is the content of the application your
23 handwriting or your printing?
24 A. No, it isn’t.
25 Q. Do you know who filled this out?
26 A. Vinnie did.
27 Q. Did he fill it out in your presence?
28 A. No, he told me he did. 6223
1 Q. And where was it that he had you sign it?
2 Where were you? Not on the document. Where are you
3 at the time he had you sign it?
4 A. I think it was when I was in the motel.
5 Q. And in this particular one, No. A, does this
6 application have on it a destination?
7 A. Yes, it does.
8 Q. What is that destination?
9 A. The “Destination” says, “Countries to be
10 visited: Italy, France.”
11 Q. Did anybody talk to you about going to Italy
12 or France?
13 A. No. No.
14 Q. Did you notice that at the time that you
15 signed that application --
16 A. No.
17 Q. -- that it said “Italy” or “France”?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Was there any discussion about going to
20 someplace other than Brazil at the time that you
21 signed that document?
22 A. No. Only Brazil at that time.
23 Q. All right. Now, let’s go to the next one
24 and mark a “B” on the second one in the lower hand,
25 on top of the vinyl. And whose picture is that,
26 please?
27 A. That’s my daughter Davellin.
28 Q. On the first one, “A,” is your picture as 6224
1 well, is it not?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. Do you know where those pictures were taken?
4 A. Yes. I think -- I don’t know. I think I
5 remember it’s a Walgreen’s. I think. I may be off.
6 My best estimate is a Walgreen’s.
7 Q. They took you there?
8 A. Yes, Vinnie.
9 Q. Vinnie took you there?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was that a Walgreen’s someplace near
12 Neverland or someplace in Los Angeles?
13 A. Here. No, somewhere right here in
14 Neverland. Here in Neverland, I think.
15 Q. Here in Santa Barbara County?
16 A. Yes, that’s the best that I can remember.
17 Q. Again, the handwriting on this one, or the
18 printing on this one, is that your daughter’s
19 printing?
20 A. No, it isn’t.
21 Q. Is there a signature on there?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. And whose signature is that?
24 A. I don’t know if it’s my daughter’s
25 signature. I don’t know.
26 Q. Were you present at a time that that was
27 handed to your daughter?
28 A. Yes. 6225
1 Q. Does that appear to be your daughter’s
2 signature?
3 A. I wouldn’t be able to tell you that.
4 Q. Okay. What’s the destination on that
5 particular application?
6 A. This one says, “Italy, France.”
7 Q. All right. Move to the next one. And let’s
8 mark that one “C.” Whose picture is that, please?
9 A. That’s my son Gavin.
10 Q. All right. And the application handwriting
11 is whose?
12 A. Vinnie.
13 Q. Is there a signature on that?
14 A. No, there isn’t, of his.
15 Q. So is there a signature at all?
16 A. That’s mine.
17 Q. Okay. And where it says on there “Gavin
18 Anton Arvizo” --
19 A. That’s printing.
20 Q. It’s printed?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That’s your signature?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Gavin’s signature is nowhere on there?
25 A. No, it isn’t.
26 Q. Did you sign that at the time you signed the
27 other one?
28 A. Yes. 6226
1 Q. The destination on that is what again,
2 please?
3 A. “Italy, France.”
4 Q. Move to the next one, please. And this
5 would be “D.” Who is that?
6 A. That’s Star.
7 Q. The handwriting on that is whose, please?
8 A. The handwriting is my name.
9 Q. The handwriting is your name?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. And the signature on that is
12 whose?
13 A. It is mine.
14 Q. All right. Did Star sign that at all?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And the destination of that is what?
17 A. “Italy, France.”
18 Q. If you haven’t already labeled that as “D,”
19 please go ahead and do that, lower left.
20 MR. ZONEN: Your Honor, as to the collection
21 of these documents, which I would ask to be bound
22 together and admitted as No. 260, I believe already
23 in evidence; is that correct?
24 THE COURT: That’s correct.
25 MR. ZONEN: Are any of these subsections, A,
26 B, C or D, not yet in evidence?
27 THE COURT: No, the whole package is in.
28 MR. ZONEN: The whole package is in, all 6227
1 right.
2 May I approach through here?
3 THE COURT: Yes.
4 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Item No. 261, currently in
5 evidence, I believe --
6 THE COURT: Correct.
7 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: -- is a collection of one,
8 two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine --
9 ten different pages. I’d like you to take a moment
10 and just look through them to gain familiarity with
11 each of them.
12 Have you seen any of these documents before?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I would like to show you specifically a
15 couple pages in here.
16 Let’s go ahead and mark each of these A
17 through, on the vinyl as we did before, so we can
18 distinguish one page from the other. Just mark “A”
19 on the first page here, and then we’re going to skip
20 through it.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. The second page we’ll mark “B.” Put it
23 right there, if you can.
24 What is this, No. B, please?
25 A. It says, “Visa Application Form.”
26 Q. All right. And is your picture on that?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Is there handwriting on that application or 6228
1 printing?
2 A. Printing.
3 Q. Is that your printing?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you not fill that out?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Is there a signature on there anywhere? Is
8 that your signature?
9 A. No, it isn’t my signature.
10 Q. Do you know whose signature it is?
11 A. It’s Vinnie’s.
12 Q. Is the signature in Vinnie’s name or is it
13 in your name?
14 A. His name.
15 Q. But nowhere on there is your signature?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. Now, the photograph that’s on there
18 is, in fact, your photograph; is that right?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. Do you remember where that photograph was
21 taken?
22 A. No, I don’t.
23 Q. Does it list the names of your parents?
24 A. Yes, it does.
25 Q. And are their names accurately listed on
26 there?
27 A. Yes, they are.
28 Q. First, middle and last name as to both your 6229
1 parents?
2 A. That’s correct.
3 Q. Did you ever see this document prior to the
4 grand jury?
5 A. This one?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. I don’t remember that.
8 Q. I mean, did you see it -- did Vinnie ever
9 show you that document?
10 A. Oh, no. Vinnie never showed me this.
11 Q. Were you aware at the time that there was an
12 application process under way for visas to go to
13 Brazil?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. He had told you that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did he tell you anything about the
18 applications that would go with it?
19 A. No. I was aware where Brazil was in the
20 future.
21 Q. Let’s mark this -- let’s mark this next page
22 261-C. Do you know what that document is?
23 A. It says something “itinerary.”
24 Q. “For flights”?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Is your name on that document?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Where is your name? 6230
1 A. It says, “Miss Janet Arvizo,” and it has
2 a --
3 Q. Go ahead.
4 A. The address is 111520 Trent -- I guess it’s
5 “CT.”
6 Q. Court?
7 A. Trent -- 111520 Trent Court, Calabasas,
8 California 93102.
9 Q. Have you ever lived at such an address?
10 A. I never lived in such an address.
11 Q. Do you know whose address that is?
12 A. No, I don’t.
13 Q. Did you know the address for Hamid?
14 A. I think it was somewhere -- I heard
15 something like San Fernando Valley.
16 Q. All right. Did anybody ever mention that
17 particular address in your presence?
18 A. Never.
19 Q. Did anybody tell you that there was a flight
20 itinerary to Brazil in effect?
21 A. No, not something like this.
22 Q. Is there a date on that in terms of the
23 flight out?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Can you read it?
26 A. Yes. It says up here, “Date, February 25th,
27 2003.”
28 Q. All right. The last one was 261-C. 6231
1 We’re now going to 261-D, if you’d write
2 that in smaller print right there.
3 A. “D”?
4 Q. “261-D.”
5 A. Oh, “261-D.”
6 Q. Tell us what we’re looking at there.
7 A. We’re looking at my son Star.
8 Q. All right. That’s his photograph?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Taken at the same time and place as yours?
11 A. I figure so.
12 Q. The handwriting on that application is
13 yours? The printing, rather?
14 A. The print, it’s not mine. It’s Vinnie’s.
15 Q. The signature at the bottom left?
16 A. Vinnie’s.
17 Q. It’s in his name? His signature, his name?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right. That one is “D.”
20 Let’s make this one 261-E. Tell us what
21 that is.
22 A. This is my son Gavin.
23 Q. Is that the same application for a visa?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. It appears to be the same as the other two
26 you’ve discussed so far?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Again, the same handwriting? 6232
1 A. It’s printing.
2 Q. I’m sorry?
3 A. Printing, the same printing. Printing.
4 Q. And the signature on the lower left?
5 A. It is Vinnie’s.
6 Q. All right. That photograph of Gavin is the
7 photograph that was taken at the same time as yours?
8 A. I figure so.
9 Q. Do you recall that?
10 A. I don’t remember. This set of pictures, I
11 thought it was --
12 Q. Do you remember any other occasion that
13 pictures were taken of you or your children for
14 purposes of some official document?
15 A. No, I don’t remember the order.
16 Q. So this would be F, 261-F, if you could
17 write that perhaps right here in small print.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. Tell me what we’re looking at now.
20 A. We’re looking at my son Gavin’s birth
21 certificate.
22 Q. All right. 261-G. And what is that
23 document?
24 A. This is mine and my children’s child
25 custody -- I don’t know what -- exactly what the
26 title, but may I read this?
27 Q. Read the title.
28 A. Yes, sir. It says, “Child Custody and 6233
1 Visitation Order Attachment.”
2 Q. All right. Tell us what that is, to your
3 understanding. What do you believe that document
4 is?
5 A. Okay. To my understanding, this is
6 something to do with the restraining order.
7 Q. Was there any discussion with either Vinnie
8 or Frank about having to have a legal document?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And that attested to your custody of your
11 children?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you believe that that’s what that
14 document is?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. Who is it who asked you to get that?
17 A. Vinnie and Frank.
18 Q. Did they explain to you why you needed such
19 a thing?
20 A. For the -- the processing of the passports.
21 Q. Do you know where you got that document?
22 A. I think -- I don’t remember whether I had --
23 no, I did, I did. I think I -- yeah, because I
24 always carried one with me all the time, the
25 restraining order.
26 Q. Do you think that that came from your
27 collection of materials from your restraining order?
28 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes. But you asked me from 6234
1 where, so I don’t know exactly where, but I always
2 made it a point to have it with me.
3 Q. Why did you carry a copy of the restraining
4 order --
5 A. Because if --
6 Q. Let me finish the question. Why did you
7 carry a copy of the restraining order with you at
8 all times?
9 A. Because of David.
10 Q. Okay. That’s 261-G you’re looking at.
11 That’s the custody order.
12 261-H would be who, or what?
13 A. Oh. This is a birth certificate for my son
14 Star.
15 Q. That’s 261-H.
16 A. H?
17 Q. Yes.
18 261-I is the next one. And what is that?
19 A. This one is a visa application form, and my
20 daughter is on it.
21 Q. This is for Davellin?
22 A. This is for Davellin.
23 Q. All right. The printing on that form is
24 whose printing?
25 A. This is Vinnie’s.
26 Q. All right. The signature on the bottom is
27 whose?
28 A. Vinnie’s. 6235
1 Q. The photograph in the document is whose?
2 A. It is Davellin, my daughter.
3 Q. And the photograph was current for that
4 time; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. That was a photograph of her at about that
7 age?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. J, which would be 261-J.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. Tell me what that is.
12 A. This is a birth certificate for my daughter
13 Davellin.
14 MR. ZONEN: Your Honor, I’m not certain that
15 261 is in in its entirety or if at all. If not, I
16 would move to introduce into evidence at this time
17 261.
18 THE COURT: 261 is in evidence.
19 MR. ZONEN: It’s in evidence.
20 Q. On the 20th and the 21st, do you remember
21 where you stayed the night of the 20th; in other
22 words, after you were with Vinnie gathering up the
23 birth certificates?
24 A. For most of the part on the 20th, I stood in
25 Jay’s apartment by myself.
26 Q. And then that night, did you spend the night
27 in Jay’s apartment?
28 A. That’s what I’m talking about. 6236
1 Q. Your children were where?
2 A. They were already in Neverland.
3 Q. The next day, did you meet up with Vinnie
4 again?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you recall where you went on that next
7 day, the 21st?
8 A. The next day, the best I can remember is
9 Marc Schaffel’s house, and he -- and Vinnie picked
10 upp the passport applications from his house.
11 That’s the best I can remember.
12 MR. ZONEN: Could I approach the witness,
13 Your Honor?
14 THE COURT: Yes.
15 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: I’m going to show you No.
16 806. This is in a clear evidence bag which has a
17 separate number of 1732. The court exhibit for
18 identification, No. 806, pulling out the content.
19 A. And I’m being followed this whole entire
20 time.
21 Q. That’s okay. Thank you.
22 Inside this exhibit are five pieces of
23 paper. Would you take a look at those, please? Are
24 those, in fact, duplicate copies of birth
25 certificates --
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. -- of you and your children?
28 A. Yes. Those are originals. 6237
1 Q. And the cover letter Affidavit to Amend
2 Record?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. County of Los Angeles?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And I’m handing you four items now. Take a
7 look at those.
8 A. Finally. Finally.
9 Q. Well, just look at them one at a time and
10 tell us what they are.
11 A. These are --
12 Q. Go ahead and look at all four first. What
13 are they?
14 A. They’re my passports.
15 Q. Now, had you ever seen those documents
16 before today, those passports?
17 A. No.
18 Q. All right. Is this what you understood to
19 be the passports that they applied for at the time?
20 A. Yes. I had seen them when Vinnie was
21 holding on to them --
22 Q. At some point in time --
23 A. -- in Neverland.
24 Q. Let’s go ahead and put these separate.
25 I don’t know if 806 is not in evidence. I
26 would move to move 806 into evidence at this time.
27 MR. MESEREAU: No objection.
28 THE COURT: It’s admitted. 6238
1 THE WITNESS: These are the ones that Bill
2 wrote for that I wanted.
3 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: “Bill” is Bill Dickerman?
4 A. That’s right.
5 Q. You just looked at those four passports.
6 And those four passports are of you and your
7 children; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, did you mention that you had seen them
10 at some time previous?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When was that that you saw them?
13 A. In Neverland.
14 Q. And do you remember when at Neverland it
15 was?
16 A. Yes. Afterwards.
17 Q. And in whose possession were those
18 passports?
19 A. Vinnie.
20 Q. How is it that you happened to see them in
21 Vinnie’s possession?
22 A. Because he was rummaging through his like, I
23 don’t know what. I don’t know. It kind of looks
24 like a suitcase, but it’s not a suitcase. It’s a
25 bag that you open up like this, and he was rummaging
26 through the things. And that’s where I seen my
27 passports. And I told him, “Could I have them?”
28 And he said, “No.” 6239
1 Q. How did you know that they were your
2 passports?
3 A. Because he was rummaging through all these
4 things, and then I happened to see them, and I said,
5 “Is that my passports?” And he said, “Yes.”
6 Q. Okay. Did you see more than just the cover
7 of them?
8 A. No, I -- just the cover.
9 Q. But you asked him if they were yours?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And he said?
12 A. He said, “Yes.”
13 Q. Did you ask to have them?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And what did he say?
16 A. He said, “No.”
17 Q. Did he say why he wasn’t giving them to you?
18 A. No, he just said, “No.”
19 Q. Now, at some later time, you retained an
20 attorney by the name of Bill Dickerman?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. All right. And did he request, by way of
23 letter that was shown to you, to have these
24 passports returned?
25 A. Yes, he did.
26 Q. Were they, in fact, ever returned to you?
27 A. No, they were never returned to me.
28 Q. Prior to today? 6240
1 A. Prior to today.
2 Q. Have you ever seen them?
3 A. I haven’t seen them.
4 Q. Where did you stay after you left on the
5 21st? Where did you go after the 21st of February;
6 do you recall?
7 A. Neverland. After Marc Schaffel’s
8 application, I went to Neverland.
9 Q. Let me ask you about Marc Schaffel. Who is
10 Marc Schaffel? Who do you understand Marc Schaffel
11 to be?
12 A. They just -- I know now per the
13 investigation, it’s different.
14 MR. MESEREAU: Objection.
15 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Hold on. At the time, did
16 you know the name “Marc Schaffel”?
17 A. No, I didn’t. But I had spoken to a Marc
18 when the Germans were there.
19 Q. All right.
20 A. Marc --
21 Q. In person --
22 A. Marc Schaffel.
23 Q. All right. In person or over the telephone?
24 A. Over the telephone.
25 Q. Did this person identify himself to you?
26 A. Yes. He said he was Marc Schaffel.
27 Q. He said he was Marc Schaffel?
28 A. Yeah, and then that’s the one that I told 6241
1 about the audio you can hear. And I said he was
2 very unkind, because he was saying I had to do the
3 video, and I thought he was one of the Germans.
4 Q. This was a person you spoke to prior to
5 doing the rebuttal video?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And he was talking to you about the video?
8 A. No. He said I had to do the video. And
9 this is before Jesus.
10 Q. All right. Now, at some point on the 21st
11 you were taken to a home?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did somebody tell you that was Marc
14 Schaffel’s home?
15 A. Yes, Vinnie did.
16 Q. Did you meet Marc Schaffel?
17 A. No, I didn’t.
18 Q. To this day, have you ever seen a picture of
19 him?
20 A. To this day I’ve never met him.
21 Q. All right. What were you doing at Marc
22 Schaffel’s house?
23 A. Picking up the applications for passports.
24 Q. Were you with your kids or by yourself?
25 A. No, I was by myself.
26 Q. With Vinnie?
27 A. With Vinnie and the people that would --
28 Q. You’re saying there was another car of 6242
1 people?
2 A. There was always someone following us.
3 Q. Did you know who those people were?
4 A. I didn’t know at the time.
5 Q. Could you tell how many people were in that
6 car?
7 A. Yes, sometimes there was two. And sometimes
8 there was three. And sometimes there was one.
9 Q. Did you recognize any of them at any time?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You already knew Asaf’s appearance.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you know if Asaf was ever one of them?
14 A. No, I just happened to see Asaf one other
15 time, and - I think so - that was during that
16 Calabasas period.
17 Q. All right. Where did you go on the 21st?
18 Where did you stay after that?
19 A. On the 21st, I stood at Neverland.
20 Q. And for how long were you at Neverland?
21 A. Until the 25th.
22 Q. And on the 25th, you went where?
23 A. To the hotel. I don’t know if it’s hotel,
24 motel, in Calabasas.
25 Q. All right. Do you remember the name of it?
26 A. I think it’s Country Inn & Suites.
27 Q. In Calabasas?
28 A. Yes. 6243
1 Q. All right. Let me go back to that period of
2 time from the 21st to the 25th that you were at
3 Neverland. Where did you stay during that time?
4 A. In the guesthouse.
5 Q. And were your children there as well?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Where did Davellin stay?
8 A. In the guesthouse next to me.
9 Q. Not your unit?
10 A. And -- and I don’t mean to say “guesthouse.”
11 It’s actually one building divided into four, and
12 they’re actually just bedrooms.
13 Q. Four separate units in a building?
14 A. Four separate units?
15 Q. Yes. And you had one of the units?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And Davellin had another?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where were the boys?
20 A. The boys were in the house.
21 Q. And that’s Gavin and Star you’re referring
22 to?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. They were staying in the house?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Did they stay in the house the entire time?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Do you know if Michael Jackson was there 6244
1 during that period of time?
2 A. At that time, I don’t know.
3 Q. Do you have a recollection of seeing him
4 during that time?
5 A. At that time, I don’t remember.
6 Q. Were you seeing your sons throughout that
7 period?
8 A. No.
9 Q. The 21st through the 25th?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Where were you during the day?
12 A. In the guesthouse.
13 Q. Did you ever leave?
14 A. Not really.
15 Q. Where did you take your meals?
16 A. In -- in there.
17 Q. In the guesthouse?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Did you ever go into the main house for
20 meals?
21 A. No. No.
22 Q. Did you ever walk around the property?
23 A. Um, I think in that whole period from when I
24 returned, from the 21st on, I’m being generous if I
25 say -- if I may, my best estimate, if I say twice.
26 Q. “Twice” what?
27 A. I walked out into Neverland. And that’s my
28 best -- and we’re talking about the period from the 6245
1 21st on.
2 Q. Were you having -- were you spending time
3 with your sons during that four-day period?
4 A. No.
5 Q. On the 25th, where did you go?
6 A. On the 25th?
7 Q. Yes. The 25th of February.
8 A. Okay. The 25th of February, went to my
9 son’s doctor’s appointment. Then from there, I went
10 to -- to Jamie’s, and then from there the hotel.
11 Q. All right. Let’s talk about the first two
12 that you mentioned.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. There was an appointment you had, I assume
15 with Gavin; is that right?
16 A. Yes, I did. And Vinnie was there.
17 Q. And Vinnie went with you?
18 A. And the people that were following us.
19 Q. And another vehicle behind you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did you go with your other two children?
22 A. All three of my kids.
23 Q. All of your kids went?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The doctor’s appointment was where?
26 A. In Kaiser. That was his cancer specialist,
27 his oncologist.
28 Q. And did they make another appointment for 6246
1 him or for testing at that time?
2 A. Yes. Yes, they did.
3 Q. What was that appointment?
4 A. That was -- I don’t know what the correct
5 medical term is, but Gavin has to go -- yes, he is a
6 healthy boy, but he’s got a lot of medical issues,
7 and they have to watch out for -- and so they -- I
8 don’t know what this one is called. I don’t know
9 whether it’s called a CT scan, ultrasound. The main
10 purpose of that was to check his kidney, because
11 there’s a constant concern that Gavin could possibly
12 lose his kidney.
13 Q. Is this a concern that exists today?
14 A. It still exists today.
15 Q. All right. Now, the -- he had an
16 appointment with the doctor. So he actually visited
17 with the doctor on the 25th?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. During that visit, where did Vinnie go?
20 A. Oh, Vinnie was right there.
21 Q. What is “right there”?
22 A. With us, with me, the whole entire time with
23 us. And usually our doctor visits, me and the kids
24 are always like a group, you know.
25 Q. All right.
26 A. Because when I go to the doctors’
27 appointments, yes, I -- you know, Sergeant Mommy.
28 But I’m always like this, weak in my knees, because 6247
1 I never know what is going to happen, I have to
2 have, after the visit. So prior to the visit, I am
3 holding my breath.
4 Q. Did Gavin actually have an examination with
5 the doctor?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I assume that was separate from where Vinnie
8 was.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you present during --
11 A. No, Vinnie was right there. Vinnie had
12 expressed to me that there was something they could
13 listen to me.
14 Q. I don’t understand what “right there” means.
15 A. Right there. Right outside the doctor’s
16 room.
17 Q. Is that where you were?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So he was with you?
20 A. And he was with the kids.
21 Q. All right. And the kids were there, too?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is this a waiting room of some kind?
24 A. No, it isn’t. It’s actually the hallway
25 outside the doctor’s room.
26 Q. When you left the doctor’s office on the
27 25th, did you have an appointment to have an
28 appointment to return to the doctor at some time in 6248
1 the future?
2 A. Yes. I --
3 Q. Was that for an examination or a test?
4 A. No, that was a test. Purely a test. No
5 doctor visit whatsoever.
6 Q. And what day was that?
7 A. March 10th.
8 Q. What was the test?
9 A. I don’t know. Like I told you, Mr. Zonen, I
10 don’t know whether it was one of those CT scans or
11 ultrasound. The main purpose of that test was to
12 check on his kidney.
13 Q. All right. Was that the day that you were
14 supposed to turn in a sample of -- a collection of
15 his urine?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, let’s go back to this, now, again.
18 A. A 24-hour collection.
19 Q. A 24-hour collection. We’re going to cover
20 this in just a moment. Let’s go back to the 25th.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. You said that you had a doctor’s appointment
23 with all of you, and then you went to, you said,
24 The Laugh Factory?
25 A. Yes, I did.
26 Q. What was your reason for going to The Laugh
27 Factory?
28 A. Okay. We were already on Sunset Boulevard. 6249
1 And the Laugh Factory is not that far from Kaiser,
2 so I tried to -- I tried to -- I’m -- I’m trying --
3 all along through this period, I’m trying to reach
4 people to help me, to let them know the best that I
5 knew at that time, because it kept evolving into
6 more and more escalation.
7 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; nonresponsive.
8 THE WITNESS: Okay. That’s my answer,
9 though.
10 THE COURT: Just a moment, please.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 THE COURT: I think it was nonresponsive.
13 MR. ZONEN: I think it was.
14 Q. Now, you were going to go to The Laugh
15 Factory. Excuse me, I’m sorry. Were you expecting
16 to meet somebody at The Laugh Factory?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who were you expecting to meet at The Laugh
19 Factory?
20 A. I was expecting to meet just Jamie. And I
21 think that Jamie on his own called Mr. Dickerman.
22 Q. Did you know who Mr. Dickerman was prior to
23 that day?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And how did you know who Mr. Dickerman was?
26 A. Because Jamie had told me that Mr. Dickerman
27 could possibly maybe help put a stop to Gavin’s
28 being ridiculed and called “gay” and all these 6250
1 things.
2 Q. Do you mean the television show?
3 A. Yes, because they were making no effort.
4 Q. Did you understand Mr. Dickerman to be an
5 attorney?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Did you understand him to be Jamie’s
8 attorney, Jamie Masada’s?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. Did you tell Vinnie in advance that you were
11 going to go visit with a lawyer?
12 A. No, I didn’t.
13 Q. Why not?
14 A. Because I was -- there was -- there was
15 consequences, consequences for going out of their
16 plan.
17 Q. Okay. When you arrived at The Laugh
18 Factory, what did you tell Vinnie was the purpose of
19 going to The Laugh Factory?
20 A. Just -- just visit Jamie.
21 Q. Did you tell him who Jamie was?
22 A. Yeah, I had told him Jamie’s a good friend,
23 and that’s about it. And so the second I went in
24 there, there was -- in two minutes I had to leave.
25 Q. All right. You went in there. Did you go
26 in with any of your children?
27 A. I think it was one of them. He had two of
28 them stay with him. And then now Frank’s on the 6251
1 phone going crazy because I’m talking to Jamie,
2 so --
3 Q. Hold on a second. Hold on a second.
4 You’re inside The Laugh Factory right now?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How do you know Frank’s on the phone with
7 anybody?
8 A. Because Davellin came in running and said,
9 “Mommy, let’s” -- “Frank’s on the phone, and he’s
10 mad and he’s going crazy.”
11 Q. All right. How long were you inside talking
12 to Jamie at that time?
13 A. My gosh, it was like -- not that long. Not
14 that long.
15 Q. What is “not that long”? Five minutes? Ten
16 minutes? 20 minutes? Give us a sense of it.
17 A. My best estimate -- my best estimate, less
18 than maybe ten minutes.
19 Q. Less than ten minutes?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. And that’s my best estimate.
23 Q. Where did you go after that? This is the
24 25th. Where did you go after that?
25 A. Then they -- then Vinnie had told me that --
26 do you just want me to tell -- not what happened
27 prior?
28 Q. Yes, just where did you go after you left 6252
1 The Laugh Factory?
2 A. The motel.
3 Q. The motel in Calabasas?
4 A. Yes. Or hotel, the Country Inn.
5 Q. How many days did you stay in Calabasas?
6 A. The 25th through the 2nd of March.
7 Q. That’s a 28-day month, February.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So you were there five days?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. 25th, 26th, 20 --
12 A. And I didn’t know I was going to stay there.
13 Q. Did they tell you why you were there as
14 opposed to going back to Neverland?
15 A. Yes, Vinnie had said that the killers had
16 arrived at -- at Neverland, so we weren’t going to
17 be able to go back. We had absolutely no kind of
18 piece of luggage with us. Nothing. That was a
19 complete surprise.
20 Q. So --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- where did Vinnie say you were going after
23 the Calabasas hotel?
24 A. After?
25 Q. Yes.
26 A. Not during?
27 Q. Well, while you were at Calabasas at that
28 hotel, Vinnie told you that it was not safe to go 6253
1 back to Neverland?
2 A. That’s right.
3 Q. All right. Did he tell you where you were
4 going to go?
5 A. We were going to a motel.
6 Q. And after the motel?
7 A. After -- now, what are you talking? During?
8 Q. You said you were going to go to a motel.
9 You were in a motel.
10 A. Yeah, that’s it.
11 Q. Did he tell you you were going -- how long
12 did he tell you you were going to have to stay at
13 that motel?
14 A. No, he didn’t. It was always one day. One
15 day. Every day everything changed.
16 Q. You had no other clothing with you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. All your clothing --
19 A. No clothing.
20 Q. -- was at Neverland?
21 A. Was at Neverland.
22 Q. At some --
23 A. Every piece of clothing was at -- in
24 Neverland that I had with me.
25 Q. At some point in time did you go shopping?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Where did you go shopping?
28 A. And this is -- again, I had told them this 6254
1 is to replace -- because I wouldn’t accept anything
2 from them. It was only in replacement. They said
3 it was not -- not safe to return, so they were going
4 to replace the children’s items, and that’s how they
5 tricked us.
6 Q. All right. Ultimately how long did you stay
7 at that hotel at Calabasas?
8 A. From February 25th to March 2nd.
9 Q. And during that time, on how many of those
10 days did you go shopping for clothing?
11 A. One day.
12 Q. Was there any discussion during that
13 five-day period of time as to when you were going to
14 be going to Brazil?
15 A. Yes. It was -- we were going to Brazil.
16 That’s it.
17 Q. Did they give you a day? Did they say in a
18 week? In a month? Did they say when?
19 A. No. No, the second they get them, the
20 second we’re going to go.
21 Q. The second they get what?
22 A. The second they get all of this covered.
23 Q. The documentation that they needed?
24 A. Yes, uh-huh.
25 Q. Did you believe at that time that you were
26 actually going to go to Brazil?
27 A. Yes. And this is the period when I called
28 Wheezy, Louise Palanker. 6255
1 Q. You called her from the hotel in Calabasas?
2 A. No, I didn’t. I don’t know where I was.
3 I don’t know where I was, but I called her during
4 this period. That I can remember clear.
5 Q. All right. Who was at the hotel during this
6 five-day period, other than you and your three
7 children?
8 A. Frank. Vinnie. Johnny. This -- another
9 guy that I never saw that always would stand outside
10 my window. And then these other people that I never
11 came to find out who they were.
12 Q. How many other people are we talking about?
13 A. Like I said, sometimes in the car there was
14 one, sometimes there was two, and sometimes there
15 was three.
16 Q. Were they there all the time?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Or one of them all the time?
19 A. Yes. Oh, there was -- nobody left my side
20 at all.
21 Q. Were Frank and Vinnie with you the entire
22 time?
23 A. No. It was these people that were all the
24 time.
25 Q. Somebody named “Johnny” you just mentioned.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. All right. What does he look like?
28 A. He’s -- he’s big. 6256
1 Q. I’m sorry, I asked you about Johnny.
2 A. He’s big.
3 Q. Big?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What color hair does he have?
6 A. It’s a light color.
7 Q. Was he there the entire time?
8 A. Yes, the entire time.
9 Q. And day and night?
10 A. Day and night.
11 Q. Was there some -- if you walked out of your
12 door, did you always see somebody there?
13 A. Yes. Absolutely. Outside my door, and
14 outside my window, and wherever we went.
15 MR. ZONEN: If I could approach the witness,
16 Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: Yes.
18 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Showing you No. 26, please,
19 would you tell us who this is?
20 A. This is Johnny.
21 Q. That’s Johnny?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. During this period of time did you have
24 telephone calls with anybody else?
25 A. Me?
26 Q. Yes.
27 A. But my phone calls were being monitored and
28 listened to. 6257
1 Q. Somebody told you that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who?
4 A. Frank and Vinnie.
5 Q. Did you believe that to be true?
6 A. Yes, I did believe them.
7 Q. Notwithstanding that belief, did you make
8 phone calls from the hotel?
9 A. Yes, I did. What I did, I tried to give --
10 drop clues to every person. I figured -- I figured
11 by all -- this was all going to be resolved by God’s
12 miracles, and I figured one day -- there will be one
13 day that all these people could give clues as to
14 when me and my children would have disappeared,
15 clues, clues, and this way this puzzle would have
16 been put together.
17 Q. Who did you call during that period of time
18 when you were at the hotel?
19 A. I called my mom, but I tried to like whisper
20 to her in Spanish, and she said, “Que?” And so --
21 and --
22 Q. Your mom’s a little hard-of-hearing, isn’t
23 she?
24 A. Yes, so -- so that didn’t help me.
25 Q. All right. Did you tell your mother you
26 were going to Brazil?
27 A. No, I don’t think so.
28 Q. She didn’t know? 6258
1 A. No.
2 Q. Who else did you call?
3 A. But Aja did.
4 Q. You called Aja during this period of time?
5 A. Yes, yes. I sneaked it in there.
6 Q. You called her from where?
7 A. From the hotel.
8 Q. Okay. And you say you sneaked it in. What
9 does that mean?
10 A. Yes, yes. Like, you know, I was letting
11 her -- I was talking and kind of dropping people
12 clues. Oh, you know, just kind of making --
13 Q. Hold on a second. The question was, how did
14 you sneak a call in? What does that mean?
15 A. Okay. No, no, all my conversations were
16 being monitored and listened to, all of them. What
17 I’m trying to say is, I sneaked it in a way where
18 I -- I said it to her, hoping that nobody had
19 listened in on what I had told her.
20 Q. Who else did you call besides Aja, your mom
21 and Louise?
22 A. Aja, my mom, Louise -- but I didn’t call
23 Louise from the hotel. I don’t remember where I
24 called her from.
25 Q. Okay.
26 A. Um -- um, I think it was one of my cousins.
27 My mom.
28 Q. Did you call Jay during that period of time? 6259
1 A. Yes, I called Jay. I hadn’t called him for
2 days.
3 Q. And you did call him from that hotel?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. Did you call the police during
6 that time?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Why not?
9 A. Because my calls are being monitored, they
10 were being listened to, my parents are in danger,
11 Jay’s in danger, and who could possibly believe
12 this?
13 Q. What do you mean by, “Who could possibly
14 believe it?” What was your concern in that regard?
15 A. That nobody would believe me. And that’s
16 because Frank said nobody would believe me.
17 Q. Did you, in your conversation with Jay from
18 the hotel, tell him what was going on?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you tell him you were going to Brazil?
21 A. I told him the same way I tried to talk to
22 Aja. Everything was always broken. It was never
23 complete. So in my -- in the midst of a regular
24 conversation, I’d throw something in, hoping that it
25 hadn’t been heard, and yet that this -- that part
26 could stick in somebody’s mind, and hopefully one of
27 these days this puzzle could be put together. I
28 tried. 6260
1 Q. After five days there, where did you go?
2 A. Back to Neverland.
3 Q. So this is now on the 2nd of March; is that
4 right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And how long did you stay at Neverland from
7 the 2nd of March?
8 A. Till March 10th.
9 Q. During that eight-day period of time, where
10 did you stay?
11 A. Like I told you, Mr. Zonen, from the 21st
12 on, when I was at Neverland, I just stood in the
13 room. That’s it. And that was per their order.
14 Q. Was there somebody around?
15 A. Yes. Either Frank or Vinnie, or both. But
16 this guy Joe, he was really scary. You know what’s
17 more scary? When you’re not spoken to and you’re
18 just watched. That was really scary.
19 Q. Do you know Joe’s name?
20 A. I don’t know his last name, but he’s -- he
21 is extremely loyal to him, to Mr. Jackson.
22 Q. What does he look like, “Joe”?
23 A. He is tall, kind of balding, a little bit of
24 hair you can see.
25 Q. Do you mean a shaved head?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Do you know his last name?
28 A. I don’t know his last name. 6261
1 Q. Did you ever hear it before?
2 A. No. Always -- the last names I would always
3 find out by accident. They never told me their last
4 names. Only when I would overhear them.
5 Q. What was it about Joe’s behavior that
6 frightened you?
7 A. That -- that this particular specific time,
8 for example, they would stand right outside my
9 window, and Frank and Vinnie would talk to him, and
10 then they’d turn around, Joe would go like this
11 (indicating), and he’d go back and like this
12 (indicating) and just stand there.
13 Q. Was Chris Carter there during that time?
14 A. Chris Carter. Um, I don’t know. I don’t
15 know. I stood there inside the room.
16 Q. Was Jesus there during that time?
17 A. Yes. And whenever Jesus would -- whatever,
18 come into my room, I’d go -- you know, right there
19 in my room I’d try talk to him, and he would tell
20 me, “I can’t help you.”
21 Q. Where were your boys during this time, from
22 the 2nd to the 10th?
23 A. From the 2nd to the 10th, they were -- they
24 were with Michael. This time I did see him.
25 Q. Could you tell if he was there the entire
26 time, from the 2nd --
27 A. Oh, yes.
28 Q. Who are we talking about now? 6262
1 A. Yes, because I’d see him. They’re running
2 around with my kids like crazy, crazy nuts, you
3 know. You know, I --
4 Q. All right, wait. You said “him.” Who is
5 “him”?
6 A. Mr. Jackson.
7 Q. All right. And “they” were running with
8 him. Who are “they”?
9 A. My boys.
10 Q. “Like nuts,” explain that to me. What does
11 that mean?
12 A. Yeah, you know, I could see through my
13 window at a distance. I know they’re my kids, but
14 they’re this little. When you see someone really
15 far, they’re about this little, and I see him this
16 much bigger. It’s clearly them, them riding around
17 in a go-cart and -- goodness gracious.
18 Q. Was there something about your boys’
19 behavior at that time that was alarming you?
20 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
21 THE WITNESS: No guidelines.
22 THE COURT: Just a minute.
23 Overruled.
24 You may answer.
25 THE WITNESS: No guidelines.
26 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: What does that mean, “no
27 guidelines”?
28 A. There’s no guidelines. There’s -- that’s 6263
1 it. I’ve lost my kids.
2 Q. Did you have any contact with them during
3 this period of time?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And “no guidelines.” How were they actually
6 behaving? Tell us how they were behaving at that
7 time.
8 A. Doing everything they wanted with Mr.
9 Jackson.
10 Q. All day long?
11 A. All day long, all night long.
12 Q. Where were they staying at night?
13 A. With Mr. Jackson.
14 Q. All right. Did you ever go into Mr.
15 Jackson’s residence at night?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Were you able to go into his residence?
18 A. No. From -- like I told you, Mr. Zonen,
19 from the period of the 21st on, no. I’d be generous
20 if I say, as my best estimate, two times.
21 Q. Did you tell the social workers from the
22 Department of Child & Family Services, did you tell
23 them that you would check on your children inside
24 the house throughout the night?
25 A. With the DCFS meeting, if you take a smaller
26 version of the video that we did on that same day,
27 if you make it smaller, that’s what -- that’s what
28 was discussed. 6264
1 Q. Right. But did you, in fact, tell them
2 that?
3 A. I could have. I could have.
4 Q. Did you know where your children --
5 A. And then but don’t forget about the other
6 additional tape-recording thing that Asaf had left
7 there.
8 Q. Okay. Did you know where the boys were
9 sleeping inside the house?
10 A. No. At that time. Now I know.
11 Q. At the time, where do you believe that they
12 were sleeping?
13 A. I believed that the children stayed with
14 children. That’s what I believed.
15 Q. Do you mean his own children?
16 A. Well, with other children, because -- just
17 children. That’s what I believed.
18 Q. Did you ever ask Gavin or Star where exactly
19 in the house they were sleeping during that time?
20 A. At that time, no.
21 Q. Did you ever have any conversations with
22 Michael Jackson during that period of time from the
23 2nd of March until the 10th of March?
24 A. No. Zero. They were having too much fun.
25 Q. Did you have any conversations with either
26 Vinnie or Frank during that period of time?
27 A. Oh, God. A lot of them.
28 Q. And -- 6265
1 A. I didn’t have conversations. They -- they
2 were coming at me.
3 Q. And what types of things were they telling
4 you at that time?
5 A. And just following their orders. Oh, this
6 is one of the things when they were trying to make
7 me sign that -- that waiver.
8 Q. That waiver.
9 A. And I said, “No, no, I’m sorry, but my
10 signing days are over.”
11 Q. Were your children in school during this
12 period of time that they were at Neverland?
13 A. No, no school.
14 Q. Were they getting any private instruction
15 while they were at Neverland?
16 A. No. See --
17 Q. No, did you complain about that to anybody?
18 A. I brought it to Mr. Jackson’s attention --
19 THE REPORTER: And to whose attention?
20 THE WITNESS: To Mr. Jackson, on that
21 first -- prior to that meeting with Jesus.
22 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: During the initial stay?
23 A. Yes, the initial --
24 Q. Early in February?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. What did Mr. Jackson say to you about your
27 children getting tutoring or schooling?
28 A. That Ronald and Dieter would fix everything. 6266
1 Q. Now, during this subsequent stay from the
2 2nd to the 10th of March of 2003, did you complain
3 about them not getting any schooling during that
4 time?
5 A. No. My complaining -- my speaking days were
6 over, because the second I would say something,
7 “Ahh.”
8 Q. The second you would say something, somebody
9 would do something?
10 A. Yes. Frank would holler at me.
11 Q. Were you aware that there was a private
12 school located near Neverland?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you ever ask them to send the children
15 to a private school?
16 A. No.
17 Q. At some point in time did your children
18 visit a dentist while they were at Neverland?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. For what purpose?
21 A. Remember how I told you I kept trying to
22 do -- do things, Mr. Zonen, about ways -- ways of
23 getting out of there? And so I had told them that
24 if I didn’t get -- if I didn’t get the
25 orthodontist’s teeth -- braces removed, that they
26 will -- the social workers were going to call the
27 police.
28 And originally, Ronald and Dieter, way when 6267
1 the Germans were involved, they had said that it was
2 bad PR for the police to get involved for Mr.
3 Jackson.
4 So I used that, and I told them that they
5 were going -- if I didn’t get the braces removed,
6 that they were going to call the social workers.
7 Q. All right.
8 A. So I used that, because what I was trying to
9 do was go to my orthodontist, so this way it was
10 someone I knew that could possibly believe me.
11 Q. All right. Now, whose idea was it to go to
12 a different orthodontist?
13 A. Their idea.
14 Q. And did you, in fact, go to a different
15 orthodontist?
16 A. Yes. And get this: After the orthodontist
17 was closed, no other patient was there. It was
18 after hours, and with that scary guy Joe, and being
19 put on notice that I was being listened and
20 monitored. So again, I, the mother, failed again.
21 Q. All right. Now, did they take off the
22 braces at that time?
23 A. Yes, they took off the braces.
24 Q. Were they, in fact, ready to have their
25 braces removed?
26 A. They were not ready to take off the braces.
27 My children were supposed to have -- I think one of
28 them was, I think two years of orthodontistry. And 6268
1 the other one had -- Star needed -- required
2 orthodontic care, and I think it was about three
3 years.
4 And so we -- the kids only had -- at that
5 period, I think they only had them on for -- oh, I
6 think they only had had them on at a period of six
7 months at that time. And that’s my best estimates.
8 So they weren’t supposed to be taken off.
9 Q. Why didn’t you simply change your mind about
10 it and say, “No, we won’t take them off”?
11 A. Then they would have known then that I’m
12 trying to escape. Because every time I tried to
13 leave, there was huge consequences.
14 Q. Did you have a talk with anybody at
15 Neverland about moving out of your apartment on Soto
16 Street?
17 A. This was -- it was an evolvement of
18 different things. First evolvement was when --
19 because the killers had gone to my apartment, I had
20 to move out and different things. But this only
21 came after -- after they found out that I had in my
22 home Michael’s letter, a rabbit that he had given my
23 son, which he wanted him to call him “Michael,” just
24 different pictures. So my apartment was meaningless
25 to them until they found out that Michael’s things
26 were there.
27 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
28 move to strike. 6269
Subject: April 14, 2005 
Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:34 am
