7972
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
5
6
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
13
14
15
16
17 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
18
19 THURSDAY, APRIL 28, 2005
20
21 8:38 A.M.
22
23 (PAGES 7972 THROUGH 8028)
24
25
26
27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 7972
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
9
10
11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A.
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067
14 -and-
15 SANGER & SWYSEN
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C
17 Santa Barbara, California 93101
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 7973
1 I N D E X
2
3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index. Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index.
6 Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index.
7
8
9 PLAINTIFF'S WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
10
11 JACKSON, Deborah Rowe 7977-Z 7988-M
12 (Contd.)
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 7974
1 Santa Maria, California
2 Thursday, April 28, 2005
3 8:38 a.m.
4
5 (The following proceedings were held in
6 open court outside the presence and hearing of the
7 jury:)
8
9 THE COURT: Good morning, everyone.
10 COUNSEL AT COUNSEL TABLE: (In unison)
11 Good morning.
12 THE COURT: The reason I came in without the
13 jury is I was provided with a motion to strike the
14 testimony of Debbie Rowe this morning.
15 I assumed you anticipated I would take that
16 up at this moment. Or did you not?
17 MR. SANGER: We hoped you would, if you
18 would give us the time to do it, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Here's my sense of it: She
20 hasn't testified long enough for me to know, really,
21 what she's going to say, or anyone else. And your
22 motion might be well-taken. It might not. But I --
23 I understand what she said yesterday, but I don't
24 really understand what she has to say today. So I
25 would want to really hear more testimony, I think.
26 MR. SANGER: Very well. Well, we briefed
27 it, and Your Honor understands our position.
28 THE COURT: I understand your position. 7975
1 I just think the -- she barely got started
2 yesterday. I mean, I really -- I think I'd have to
3 let it -- well, I would have to know more about what
4 she says than what I know already to know whether or
5 not your motion is well-taken.
6 MR. SANGER: Well, my concern was -- if I
7 may, my concern was to raise it at the earliest
8 possible moment --
9 THE COURT: I know.
10 MR. SANGER: -- because if it goes too long,
11 then we get into a position where it's hard to undo
12 it. And if --
13 THE COURT: I understand that, but --
14 MR. SANGER: I'm not arguing with the Court.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 MR. SANGER: I just want to let you know why
17 I think -- whenever you feel --
18 THE COURT: There is another side of the
19 coin, though. I let the testimony in based on their
20 representations in their written materials, which --
21 if the testimony is the exact opposite, I mean,
22 isn't that the testimony that would be relevant to
23 your side of the case?
24 MR. SANGER: Yes and no. And the problem --
25 I understand that. And we thought about it, but the
26 problem is that this will then lead to a tremendous
27 amount of other collateral testimony to put whatever
28 it is in context. 7976
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. SANGER: And that's my concern. If we
3 go too far down the road, then we pretty much are
4 committed to doing the whole thing.
5 THE COURT: Okay. Well, let's go further
6 down the road before --
7 MR. SANGER: Thank you.
8 THE COURT: Is there anything you -- you
9 didn't get to say anything. I assume --
10 MR. ZONEN: Nor am I requesting to.
11 THE COURT: Huh?
12 MR. ZONEN: Nor am I requesting to.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14
15 (The following proceedings were held in
16 open court in the presence and hearing of the
17 jury:)
18
19 THE COURT: I already said good morning to
20 everyone else, so I'll say good morning to you.
21 THE JURY: (In unison) Good morning.
22 THE COURT: You may proceed.
23 MR. ZONEN: Thank you.
24
25 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
26 BY MR. ZONEN:
27 Q. Miss Rowe, good morning.
28 A. Good morning. 7977
1 Q. We left off, we were discussing the
2 interview that you had back in February of 2003 at
3 Marc Schaffel's home in Calabasas. And you recall
4 that interview, do you not?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And I believe that you had testified
7 yesterday that you were at his residence for some
8 time over nine or ten hours; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Approximately how long were you at his
11 residence?
12 A. We started early in the morning and finished
13 around 9:00, 10:00 at night.
14 Q. Was your attorney there the entire time?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was she in your presence the entire time?
17 A. No, she was not.
18 Q. Were there times when you were separated
19 from her?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. What was the purpose of that?
22 A. To -- I didn't want to see the interviewer
23 before the interview. And the best way to do that
24 was to leave where everything was that was happening
25 in the living room off to the side of the main
26 entrance of the house, so Mr. Schaffel and I went
27 upstairs in his office.
28 Q. And did you have a conversation with Mr. 7978
1 Schaffel at that time?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you discuss the interview?
4 A. No.
5 Q. At some point in time, did you take a look
6 at a script?
7 A. No.
8 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
9 THE COURT: Overruled. The answer was, “No.”
10 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: All right. At some point in
11 time, did you see one in somebody else's possession?
12 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
13 THE COURT: Overruled.
14 THE WITNESS: Mr. Drew had questions; I
15 assume they were questions. He had a number of
16 pages and asked if I wanted to see them. And I said
17 no.
18 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Do you know how many
19 questions were on that script?
20 A. He told me 105.
21 Q. Do you know if he went over all of those
22 questions during the course of that interview?
23 A. My understanding is we did.
24 Q. And the number of hours that you spent in
25 actual interview was approximately what?
26 A. Nine.
27 Q. Was Mr. Schaffel there the entire time?
28 A. Yes. 7979
1 Q. Was Mr. Schaffel saying anything during that
2 time?
3 A. He was hearing sounds in the background,
4 thought it was being picked up on audio, wanted to
5 change what the back --
6 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
7 THE COURT: Overruled.
8 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Go ahead.
9 A. Wanted to make sure what the background
10 looked like and everything. He occasionally -- not
11 “occasionally,” frequently would interject to
12 rephrase a question or an answer. And I told him if
13 that did not --
14 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
15 narrative.
16 THE COURT: Sustained at this point.
17 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Tell us specifically what he
18 said to you with regards to either questions or
19 answers.
20 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Calls for a
21 narrative; hearsay; foundation.
22 THE COURT: Sustained as to narrative.
23 MR. ZONEN: All right.
24 Q. Tell us if he -- let me change that.
25 With regards to answers to your questions,
26 did he make any comments as to answers to your
27 questions?
28 A. Yes. 7980
1 Q. What kinds of comments did he make?
2 A. He --
3 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Vague;
4 foundation; calls for a narrative.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Go ahead and answer the
7 question, if you recall.
8 A. He would ask me if I would rephrase an
9 answer or he would ask Mr. Drew to rephrase a
10 question.
11 Q. And what types of questions or answers would
12 he ask you to rephrase?
13 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; vague.
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Do you remember any specific
16 questions that he asked you to rephrase?
17 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Misstates the
18 evidence and vague.
19 THE COURT: Overruled.
20 You may answer.
21 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: You can answer.
22 A. I don't remember a specific -- there were so
23 many, I don't remember any specific. I remember at
24 the end he wanted us to add stuff to clarify what he
25 thought might be misunderstood or something.
26 Q. And did you, in fact, make changes in your
27 interview in accordance with his request?
28 A. Only if it didn't change the meaning of what 7981
1 I had to say.
2 Q. And what was the meaning of what you had to
3 say?
4 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; vague.
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: All right. What is it that
7 you were intending to represent in this interview?
8 A. Michael as a wonderful person and as a great
9 father and generous and caring.
10 Q. All right. Did you have information as to
11 Michael Jackson as a wonderful father?
12 A. As I've known him?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When was the last time you'd actually talked
16 with him?
17 A. In 1999.
18 Q. All right. This was in early 2003; is that
19 correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. When was the last time you saw him interact
22 with the children?
23 A. 1991. I'm sorry, 1999.
24 Q. In the course of this interview, did you
25 represent yourself as still being part of the
26 family?
27 A. Yes, I did.
28 Q. Was that true? 7982
1 A. No, it was not.
2 Q. Why did you do it?
3 A. To protect the children and to try to keep
4 the media and questions away and out of their focus.
5 And to make sure that I could do whatever I could
6 even at a distance.
7 Q. Did you feel that you were enthusiastic
8 during this interview?
9 A. I --
10 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
11 THE COURT: Sustained.
12 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: How did you approach this
13 interview in terms of your affect?
14 A. I was excited to do it.
15 Q. Why?
16 A. Because I would get to see my children and
17 possibly renew a relationship with Mr. Jackson.
18 Q. Why did you want to do that?
19 A. They're my family.
20 Q. Did you consider them your family?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you consider Mr. Jackson to be your
23 family to the same extent as your children?
24 A. I don't think anyone is as much as your
25 children, but, yes.
26 Q. How long had it been since you had seen your
27 children?
28 A. About two and a half years. 7983
1 Q. At the conclusion of the interview, did you
2 have a conversation with anybody about when you
3 would be able to see your children?
4 A. Mr. Schaffel said that he was excited, and
5 that we'd be going up to Neverland soon. And I
6 said, “Fine.” I said, “Let me know as soon as you
7 can.”
8 Q. Was that something that you wanted to do?
9 A. Very much. Very much.
10 Q. When was the last time you had been to
11 Neverland?
12 A. Years. I couldn't tell you. Probably .99,
13 .98.
14 Q. Did you make any contact with anybody about
15 seeing your children within the next, say, 30 days
16 or beyond?
17 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
18 THE COURT: Overruled.
19 You may answer.
20 THE WITNESS: Mr. Schaffel. I would call --
21 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: How often -- I'm sorry?
22 A. I would call him almost weekly. I didn't
23 want to be a noodge, or piss him off, so I would
24 call him and chat him up, and say, “By the way,” you
25 know, “Are they back?” You know, “When can I see
26 them?” Because it was my understanding they were
27 out of town.
28 Q. For what period of time did you continue to 7984
1 contact Mr. Schaffel about that?
2 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor, we object. Make
3 a motion to exclude.
4 MR. ZONEN: I'd like to respond to it, even
5 if at sidebar.
6 THE COURT: The objection is overruled.
7 You may answer.
8 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Go ahead.
9 A. About nine months.
10 Q. Did you ever see your children?
11 A. No, I did not.
12 Q. To this day, have you seen your children?
13 A. No, I have not.
14 Q. Have you gone back to court?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Have you reinstated parental rights --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- for yourself?
19 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading;
20 foundation.
21 THE COURT: Sustained.
22 MR. MESEREAU: Relevance.
23 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: What did you accomplish in
24 court?
25 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading;
26 foundation; relevance; vague; and calls for improper
27 opinion.
28 THE COURT: The objection to “What did you 7985
1 accomplish...” is sustained as vague. That question
2 is vague.
3 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: All right. Were you able to
4 get a ruling in regards to your custody of your
5 children?
6 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; relevance; motion
7 to exclude.
8 THE COURT: Overruled.
9 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Go ahead.
10 A. Not regards to custody, but my parental
11 rights were reinstated.
12 Q. At this time you have parental rights again,
13 is that right?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Have you seen your children?
16 A. No, I have not.
17 Q. Are you still in court making an effort to
18 do so?
19 A. Very much so. Actively.
20 Q. Have you ever seen yourself on television or
21 any part of that interview that was conducted at Mr.
22 Schaffel's house?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where did you see it?
25 A. I reviewed it last night. I hadn't seen it.
26 I didn't watch it when it was on television, so I
27 saw a video last evening.
28 Q. All right. That was the same video that you 7986
1 had reviewed once previously?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. But on the occasion last night, you viewed
4 it with greater detail?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you ever see the Maury Povich film that
7 was featured at a later time?
8 A. I don't remember watching it.
9 Q. Did you ever receive any money for your
10 participation --
11 A. No.
12 Q. -- in this interview?
13 A. No.
14 Q. What was your motivation to participate in
15 this interview?
16 A. To see my children.
17 MR. ZONEN: Thank you. I have no further
18 questions.
19 THE COURT: Cross-examine?
20 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor, we'd like to
21 renew our motion to exclude testimony into these
22 areas.
23 THE COURT: I'll give you an indicated,
24 subject to full argument, but at this point I would
25 probably not grant that motion.
26 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Mr. Mesereau.
27 //
28 // 7987
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. MESEREAU:
3 Q. Good morning, Ms. Rowe.
4 We've never spoken before, correct?
5 A. No, we have not.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. I'm Debbie.
8 (Laughter.)
9 Q. The prosecutor asked you some questions
10 about your, for lack of a better word, current
11 dispute with Michael Jackson in Family Law Court,
12 correct?
13 A. I wouldn't call it a dispute, but if that's
14 the legal term, okay.
15 Q. Well, the prosecutor asked you about whether
16 you obtained rights or not - okay? - and I believe
17 you said you have obtained parental rights but not
18 custody rights; is that true?
19 A. I corrected him, and said that my parental
20 rights had been reinstated --
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. -- when he mentioned custody.
23 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, when did you first meet
24 Mr. Schaffel?
25 A. When Mr. Jackson asked me to do the
26 interview.
27 Q. Okay. And did you first meet him at the
28 interview? 7988
1 A. Yes. Personally -- I had spoken to him on
2 the phone. But personally, yes.
3 Q. And I gather you developed some type of
4 friendship with him; is that true?
5 A. I wouldn't call it a friendship. More of an
6 acquaintance. More than an acquaintanceship, but
7 not a friendship.
8 Q. And you were calling him approximately every
9 week; is that true?
10 A. For about three months, yes.
11 Q. Okay. And at some point you were in contact
12 with the Santa Barbara sheriffs about this case,
13 correct?
14 A. They had called me, yes. And I did not
15 return the first call.
16 Q. And eventually, you developed somewhat of a
17 dialogue with Santa Barbara sheriffs about this
18 case, right?
19 A. When they caught me on my cell phone on my
20 way home from Palm Springs, yes, the number they got
21 from Marc Schaffel.
22 Q. And you agreed to make what you called some
23 pretext phone calls for the sheriffs, correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And a pretext phone call means basically you
26 agreed to work with the sheriffs, telephone people
27 and talk to them while the sheriffs were recording
28 those calls; is that correct? 7989
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And the idea was that the people you would
3 call would not know they were being recorded, right?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Only you and the sheriffs would know there
6 were recordings, right?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Now, how many of these pretext phone calls
9 do you think you made with or for the sheriffs?
10 A. I think there were a total of four to six.
11 I'm not sure.
12 Q. And who were those pretext phone calls with?
13 A. Marc Schaffel. Ian Drew. And I think I may
14 have tried to do one with Dieter.
15 Q. Were you able to do that one?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. Okay. So the only people you recall
18 actually speaking with when they didn't know the
19 call was being recorded are Schaffel and Drew; is
20 that right?
21 A. And Dieter, if I did one with him, he
22 wouldn't have known.
23 Q. Now, Schaffel and Drew were there when you
24 were interviewed?
25 A. Yes, they were.
26 Q. And when you arrived for the interview had
27 you ever spoken to Mr. Drew before?
28 A. No, I had not. 7990
1 Q. Did you meet him for the first time at the
2 interview?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. So you met Ian Drew for the first time at
5 Marc Schaffel's home, right?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And after you met him, did you develop an
8 understanding as to whether or not Mr. Drew would
9 have a role in your interview?
10 A. I was told he was the one that would be
11 doing the interviewing.
12 Q. And did he, in fact, do that?
13 A. Yes, he did.
14 Q. Okay. And is he the one that had the list
15 of questions you've described?
16 A. Yes, he did.
17 Q. And I believe you said you thought there
18 were about 105 questions, right?
19 A. He told me there were 105.
20 Q. Mr. Drew told you that?
21 A. Yes, he did.
22 Q. Did he ever show you the list of questions?
23 A. He offered to.
24 Q. And you refused, right?
25 A. Correct.
26 Q. You refused because you wanted to give a
27 spontaneous type of response to whatever he asked
28 you, right? 7991
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Okay. And I think it's fair to say that
3 your responses were very favorable about Michael
4 Jackson, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You answered questions for approximately
7 nine hours; is that true?
8 A. Yes. It was a very long day.
9 Q. And you were asked all sorts of questions
10 about what kind of person Mr. Jackson was, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You were asked about what kind of a father
13 he was --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- right?
16 You were asked whether or not he was a good
17 family person?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You were asked about whether he was a good
20 friend of yours, right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you, throughout that nine-hour period,
23 were very positive about Michael Jackson, right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And when you got there for the interview,
26 your understanding was you were going there to help
27 do a very positive, favorable piece about Michael,
28 right? 7992
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And your understanding was that one of the
3 purposes of this interview was to counteract the
4 negative stuff that appeared in the Bashir
5 documentary, right?
6 A. I didn't know what the video was. I had
7 never heard of Bashir. It was regarding something
8 that had played in Europe and was going to be played
9 in the United States. I didn't want to see the
10 video. I didn't want to see the transcripts from
11 the video. I didn't want to know anything about it.
12 Q. Okay. Okay. But you knew there was -- the
13 purpose was to respond to something in the media
14 that had been negative about Michael, right?
15 A. Negative, twisted, misunderstood, whatever
16 it was.
17 Q. Okay. And I believe you testified you were
18 more than eager to help Michael in this area, right?
19 A. Absolutely.
20 Q. And as far as you're concerned, you did help
21 him, right?
22 A. I hope I did.
23 Q. You spoke favorably about him and some of
24 your comments were placed on a T.V. documentary,
25 right?
26 A. The show that -- whatever it was that aired
27 for it, yeah. I think they said the Povich thing.
28 Q. And you kept calling Mr. Schaffel for a 7993
1 number of months?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you would see him from time to time,
4 right?
5 A. No, I never saw him. I saw him one time --
6 Q. You had lunch with him one time?
7 A. He set me up. Yes, I had lunch with him one
8 time.
9 Q. Where was that?
10 A. The Ivy.
11 Q. Okay. And you say Schaffel set you up?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. And what do you mean by that?
14 A. Apparently there was a meeting going on with
15 Michael and some of his people, and I later found
16 out that Schaffel and Dieter were not included. And
17 so Marc had called me up and said, “Do you want to
18 go to lunch?” And I said, “Sure.” I said, “Do you
19 want me to meet you in the valley halfway? Do you
20 want to come over here? I'll pick you up.” You
21 know, “What do you want to do?” And he said, “Well,
22 why don't I pick you up.” And I said, “Fine. Where
23 are we going to go?” And he said, “The Ivy. Is
24 that okay?” I said, “Sure.” I never had any
25 problems at The Ivy before. So we went to The Ivy.
26 Q. And would Schaffel call you from time to
27 time?
28 A. Yes. 7994
1 Q. Okay. And you have previously commented
2 that you thought Mr. Schaffel was using Mr. Jackson,
3 true?
4 A. Oh, yeah.
5 Q. You thought he was using him, manipulating
6 him?
7 MR. ZONEN: I'm going to object as lack of
8 foundation. She said she just met him. Also
9 improper opinion.
10 THE COURT: Overruled.
11 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You told the sheriffs
12 that, in your opinion, Marc Schaffel was continually
13 trying to take advantage of Michael Jackson, true?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And you thought he was manipulating Michael
16 Jackson to make lots of money, right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, you met Dieter at some point, true?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And when did you meet Dieter?
21 A. I don't remember if I met him anytime before
22 The Ivy incident, but I met -- he was with us at
23 lunch.
24 Q. Okay. And did you meet Konitzer at some
25 point?
26 A. Years ago on tour, when he was doing “Those
27 Cool Sunglasses.”
28 Q. During the period of the interview -- I say 7995
1 “during the period.” That's a little bit vague.
2 Let me withdraw that.
3 Around the time of the interview, did you
4 talk to Konitzer at all?
5 A. I spoke with him when I spoke with Mr.
6 Jackson to arrange it. And he and Dieter and Marc
7 had been on the phone. They had been on the phone
8 to tell me about problems that were going on, yes.
9 Q. And you've also made statements to the
10 sheriffs that you thought Dieter and Konitzer were
11 manipulating Michael Jackson, correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You thought Dieter and Konitzer were taking
14 advantage of Michael Jackson, true?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you thought they were trying to
17 manipulate Michael Jackson to make a lot of money,
18 right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was it your perception, based upon what you
21 observed of Schaffel, Dieter and Konitzer, that
22 those three were working together?
23 A. Oh, yeah.
24 Q. You definitely got that impression?
25 A. Oh, yeah.
26 Q. Okay. And was it your impression that those
27 three were working together to find ways to use
28 Michael Jackson's name so they could profit? 7996
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And at one point you told the sheriffs that
3 you thought Michael Jackson was, in some ways, very
4 removed from what those guys were doing, right?
5 A. In my past knowledge, he's removed from the
6 handlers, the people who are taking care of
7 business, and they make all the decisions. There's
8 a number of times they don't consult him.
9 Q. And you thought these three guys, Schaffel,
10 Dieter and Konitzer, were doing just that, didn't
11 you?
12 A. Very strongly.
13 Q. Do you recall if around this time you ever
14 tried to warn Michael Jackson about Schaffel,
15 Konitzer and Dieter?
16 A. I did. I tried to go through my -- my --
17 I'm sorry, my old boss. And actually, when I did
18 call, I was told that, “Be careful of Marc.”
19 Q. And your old boss was Dr. Klein?
20 A. Arnold Klein, yes. K-l-e-i-n.
21 Q. What you're saying, you tried to communicate
22 with Michael, through Dr. Klein, to warn him about
23 what these three characters were doing to Michael?
24 A. Or to look and see if he was aware of what
25 was going on, if he even knew that I was still
26 trying to see the children.
27 Q. Okay. And one of the problems you had was
28 that because of the custody issues, you were 7997
1 supposed to talk through attorneys, right?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. And that created a problem in your ability
4 to communicate with Michael, right?
5 A. It was difficult, yes.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. It was easy with Mr. Spiegel, Lance Spiegel.
8 Q. And Mr. Spiegel was a prior lawyer for Mr.
9 Jackson?
10 A. For family, yes.
11 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, approximately when did
12 you -- when were you divorced from Mr. Jackson? Was
13 it 1999?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And at that point you gave up custody of the
16 children?
17 A. No, not at that point. A year and a half
18 later.
19 Q. Okay. A year and a half later you gave up
20 custody of the children, and you had the visitation
21 rights that you identified yesterday, right?
22 A. Right. No, I'm sorry, I misunderstood.
23 I gave up custody at the divorce. I gave him full
24 custody. I had visitation - I'm sorry, I
25 misunderstood - every 45 days.
26 Q. Approximately how long was your marriage to
27 Mr. Jackson?
28 A. Three and a half years. 7998
1 Q. Okay. And I believe you said yesterday
2 you've stayed his friend, right?
3 A. I've always considered him my friend.
4 Q. And you still do, right?
5 A. Yeah. If he'd talk to me. Sorry.
6 Q. And without question, the communicating
7 through lawyers has created problems with --
8 A. Have you met Mr. Hall? Extreme problems.
9 Q. Okay. Okay. You're blaming the lawyers for
10 a lot of that, right?
11 A. Have you met Mr. Hall? You don't want to.
12 Q. Okay. All right. How many times did you
13 meet Dieter personally?
14 A. Like -- I know for sure the one time.
15 Q. Did you talk to Dieter on the telephone?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How many times do you think you talked to
18 Dieter on the telephone?
19 A. I think once or twice.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. I don't remember. They weren't eventful
22 calls.
23 Q. Did he call you or did you call him?
24 A. He's -- I know he called me once, and I
25 believe I called him.
26 Q. Now, did you learn at some point -- excuse
27 me. Before I get into that, how many calls do you
28 think you had with Drew, if any? 7999
1 A. From when to when?
2 Q. Oh, around the time of the interview.
3 A. I met Mr. Drew, he went back to Florida, I
4 didn't see him for about a year. When he came back
5 to Los Angeles, he called me and said he was back in
6 town.
7 Q. Did you develop a friendship with him?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Okay. Now, did you learn at some point that
10 Schaffel was trying to make millions of dollars from
11 the footage of your interview?
12 A. Yes, I --
13 MR. ZONEN: I'm going to object as lack of
14 foundation.
15 THE COURT: Overruled.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: How did you learn that
18 Schaffel was trying to make millions of dollars from
19 the footage of your interview?
20 A. He told me he was paid for it. He told me
21 that part of the money that was made from it went
22 for a debt that Mr. Jackson had owed him. I later
23 found out that he took -- he told Ronald and Dieter
24 that I wanted $100,000 for doing the interview. And
25 I believe a check was cut - not to me. I wouldn't
26 have taken it - and he kept it.
27 Q. And how did you learn this information?
28 A. Some of it was from Ian. Some of it was 8000
1 from Marc himself.
2 Q. And at one point Schaffel told you he was
3 going to sue Michael Jackson, didn't he?
4 A. Yes, he did.
5 Q. He told you he wanted over a million dollars
6 from Michael Jackson, true?
7 A. He said Michael owed him a million dollars.
8 Q. And approximately when did Marc Schaffel
9 tell you he was going to sue Michael Jackson?
10 A. Six months ago maybe. It may have been
11 longer than that, but I'm not really good with -- if
12 you could give me something to refer to at a time, I
13 could say yes, it happened then. But I think it was
14 about six months ago. And then he told me, about
15 three months ago, that he and his lawyer were filing
16 papers.
17 Q. And did you ever learn at some point that he
18 had actually sued Michael Jackson?
19 A. He told me that they'd filed the papers.
20 Q. Okay. Did Schaffel ever ask you for
21 assistance in his suit against Michael Jackson?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did he ever ask you for information to help
24 him in his business dealings with Michael Jackson?
25 A. I wouldn't have given it to him.
26 Q. Okay. Did he ever ask you for help, though?
27 A. I'm sorry?
28 Q. Did Schaffel, in your mind, ever ask you to 8001
1 help him in his business dealings with Mr. Jackson?
2 A. No. He just bragged about either how he
3 took advantage of an opportunity that I'm sure he
4 knew nothing about or how he was going to do this,
5 that or the other thing to make sure that Michael's
6 career was saved, and things of that nature.
7 Q. Did Schaffel tell you that he was involved
8 in business matters with Dieter?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did Schaffel tell you he was involved in
11 business matters with Konitzer?
12 A. Yes. In Europe.
13 Q. Okay. And did you ever get the impression
14 he was not giving Michael Jackson all the
15 information about what he was up to?
16 A. He was like everybody else around Mr.
17 Jackson. Yeah, he wasn't telling him everything.
18 Q. Why did you think Schaffel was calling you?
19 A. To placate me. To say that, “Oh, no, I'm
20 working on it. You'll be seeing the kids.
21 Michael's very excited about it. Everything's going
22 to be great. They're still in Florida.” You know,
23 “As soon as they get home you guys will be
24 together.”
25 Q. And you didn't think he was being truthful,
26 right?
27 A. Obviously he's full of shit. Sorry.
28 I'm sorry, Your Honor. 8002
1 Q. You consider Marc Schaffel a liar, don't
2 you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You consider Dieter a liar, don't you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You consider Konitzer to be a liar, don't
7 you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did Mr. Drew appear to you to want to
10 interact with Schaffel?
11 MR. ZONEN: I'll object as speculative.
12 THE COURT: Sustained.
13 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You met Mr. Drew at
14 Schaffel's residence, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you were introduced to him through
17 Schaffel, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was it your belief at that time that the two
20 of them had some type of business relationship?
21 A. Marc told me that Ian was a plant at one of
22 the tabloids to run interference for bad publicity
23 for Michael.
24 Q. And did you believe that?
25 A. I didn't know, didn't care, didn't want to
26 be there, but was there for the kids and for him.
27 I -- you know, I wanted to get in and get out. I'm
28 having about as much fun here as I had there. 8003
1 Q. Was it your understanding that Schaffel was
2 using Ian Drew for a particular purpose?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And that purpose was to sew publicity that
5 he wanted in the tabloids?
6 A. To get information out. I don't know if I
7 knew that it was -- if I knew that it was The Globe
8 then that he was the plant for, or if Marc told me
9 shortly thereafter. I think Marc told me at the
10 day, the day that it was, so I knew that I was
11 supposed to expect something coming out in the
12 tabloids.
13 Q. Right.
14 A. “Shockingly” was misinterpreted.
15 Q. And was it your impression that Schaffel was
16 using Drew to promote Schaffel's business interests?
17 A. If I'm considered a commodity to Mr.
18 Jackson, then yes.
19 Q. And as far as you were concerned, Schaffel
20 was using you as a commodity, right?
21 A. Schaffel was talking out both sides of his
22 mouth, telling me one thing, telling Mr. Jackson
23 something else.
24 Q. You thought he was using the two of you,
25 didn't you?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Schaffel bragged to you about the large sums
28 of money he was going to make off of Michael 8004
1 Jackson, didn't he?
2 A. Yes, he did.
3 Q. He bragged about making millions of dollars
4 off of Michael Jackson, didn't he?
5 A. Yes, he did.
6 Q. He did that many times, didn't he?
7 A. Constantly.
8 Q. Did Dieter brag as well about the millions
9 he was going to make off of Michael Jackson?
10 A. He wasn't as -- he was more subtle about it
11 and spoke of it as plans for Michael, not actually
12 to take from Michael. So it's a matter of
13 semantics, I'm saying, you know, “I'm going to do it
14 for Michael.”
15 Q. Did Konitzer brag about all the money he was
16 going to make off of Michael Jackson?
17 A. He had big plans. So -- but they -- I
18 didn't speak with him as often as I spoke with Marc.
19 So those conversations weren't about that with
20 Ronald. It was getting this project started and how
21 they were going to -- how everything was going to be
22 much better.
23 And then I think I had another conversation
24 with Ronald and Dieter afterwards when they called
25 to say that everything was fine with the video, and
26 “Thank you,” and “Things will be fine. We have big
27 plans,” and stuff like that. I think there's only
28 two times I spoke with Konitzer. 8005
1 Q. Did Dieter ever tell you that he and
2 Konitzer were going to take over all of Michael
3 Jackson's affairs?
4 A. That was their plan, because he'd been
5 mishandled.
6 Q. Did Dieter ever tell you, “Don't call
7 Michael Jackson. If you have any question about
8 him, talk to me”?
9 A. I wouldn't be allowed to call him. But if I
10 had any concerns I would -- he said, you know,
11 “Please call me.”
12 Q. Did Schaffel ever show you any written
13 agreements that he said concerned projects he was
14 going to do with the Jackson name?
15 A. The song. Didn't show me the contract, but
16 that was one thing that he spoke to me about is that
17 they were doing a song for Clear Channel or
18 something.
19 Q. How many times have you been to Schaffel's
20 home?
21 A. Once for the interview, and once to pick him
22 up, and I have to remember where we were going. We
23 had to drop a friend of his off in Hollywood
24 someplace. Oh, we went to see Parviz, this guy
25 Parviz. That's what we did.
26 Q. Okay. And did Schaffel talk to you about an
27 attorney named Mr. Geragos?
28 A. Uh-huh. 8006
1 Q. Did he tell you that he had picked Mr.
2 Geragos?
3 A. I don't know who picked him, but whoever did
4 made a huge mistake. Come on. He pleads out or
5 loses.
6 Q. Well, in your discussions with the sheriffs,
7 you made negative comments about Mr. Geragos, didn't
8 you?
9 A. Oh, yeah.
10 Q. And didn't you also comment that you thought
11 Mr. Geragos was doing --
12 MR. ZONEN: I'm going to object as hearsay
13 and speculative and irrelevant and beyond the scope
14 of the direct.
15 THE COURT: Sustained.
16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you know why you were
17 asked by the sheriffs to record phone conversations
18 with Ian Drew?
19 MR. ZONEN: Objection; speculative.
20 THE COURT: Sustained.
21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did any representative of
22 the sheriff's department ever tell you why they
23 wanted you to record phone conversations with Ian
24 Drew?
25 A. It was very frustrating working with the
26 sheriff's department. They don't give you any
27 information. That's why I wanted to find out for
28 myself what was going on. 8007
1 Q. And did you ever record conversations
2 yourself and then just give those recordings to the
3 sheriff?
4 A. No, that's illegal.
5 Q. You just did it always with a sheriff
6 involved with you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. When did you last talk to Mr.
9 Schaffel?
10 A. Conversation-conversation? Probably two
11 weeks ago. Probably right before he got the
12 transcripts from the conversation. But he had sent
13 me e-mails that I had not opened. They're still on
14 my account before I came up here.
15 Q. So a couple of weeks ago you talked to him?
16 A. Spoke with him, yes.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. He was out of town and wouldn't be back for
19 a couple of weeks. He said there was a family
20 crisis or something. I was hoping his family wasn't
21 ill.
22 Q. Did you call him?
23 A. I don't have a cell phone number for him
24 anymore. I lost it. So when he was in town, the
25 conversations were less and less after I had spoken
26 with the sheriff's department and found the
27 information out that I had found and the way I had
28 been treated. And it's a little difficult for me to 8008
1 be civil to someone that I dislike.
2 Q. Well, I gather you tried your best to let
3 Mr. Schaffel think he could still communicate with
4 you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Up until two weeks ago, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was that at the request of the sheriffs?
9 A. No, that was more me. If he did get in
10 touch with me, I did tell them.
11 Q. And when did you last talk to Ian Drew?
12 A. He got promoted from his job just after the
13 first of the year. I had dinner with him. There's
14 a group of us that go out on Wednesday nights, and I
15 think it was a month ago that I last talked to him.
16 It was getting close to my uncle's birthday, so we
17 did -- everybody has to come on this Wednesday night
18 to not miss my uncle's birthday.
19 Q. Your last communication with Dieter was
20 when?
21 A. Oh, a long time ago. Not within the last
22 year, I don't think. Well, I think The Ivy incident
23 was the last time that I spoke to him. I may -- oh,
24 no, no, no, no. I did try to call him. Sorry. I
25 did try to call him afterwards. And I may have made
26 the one phone call. I don't remember if I made it
27 or not. I haven't seen any of the stuff.
28 So if there's something there, I'd be happy 8009
1 to look at it and tell you what was done and what
2 was said and what was meant, if you'd like.
3 Q. I'm just asking you.
4 A. Blonde.
5 I don't remember the day, you know. I think
6 I did, but I can't totally swear to it.
7 Q. How about Konitzer. When do you think you
8 last talked to him?
9 A. If I did, it was very shortly after the
10 video.
11 Q. Okay. Would it be accurate to say that your
12 impression was that Schaffel, Konitzer, and Dieter
13 were trying to profit off problems Mr. Jackson had?
14 MR. ZONEN: I'm going to object again as
15 speculative and lack of foundation.
16 THE COURT: Sustained.
17 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did Schaffel tell you that
18 he and Dieter and Konitzer were going to make a lot
19 of money off of the problems that came out of the
20 Bashir documentary?
21 A. They said they were going to fix the problem
22 and bragged that they had made money.
23 MR. ZONEN: Objection; nonresponsive. “They
24 said.”
25 THE COURT: Overruled.
26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: That bothered you, didn't
27 it?
28 A. Yeah. 8010
1 Q. Did you ever tell Schaffel, “I don't like
2 what you're doing to Michael,” or words to that
3 effect?
4 A. If I had said that, then I wouldn't have
5 been able to find out what he was doing and try to
6 get word to whoever was handling him, “You guys are
7 going to get screwed.”
8 Q. So what you were trying to do was make
9 Schaffel think he could maintain a friendship with
10 you, but what you really wanted to do was get
11 information from him?
12 A. Yeah. He was out to hurt Michael, in
13 addition would hurt my children.
14 Q. And did you feel Dieter was trying to hurt
15 Michael and also your children?
16 A. I think they're opportunistic vultures.
17 Q. Would that be Dieter, Konitzer and Schaffel?
18 A. Okay. You can do them alphabetically if
19 you'd like.
20 Q. You're talking about the three of them,
21 right?
22 A. All of them.
23 Q. Who else are you referring to as vultures,
24 besides those three?
25 A. If it's a personal opinion, does it count?
26 MR. ZONEN: I'm going to object as beyond
27 the scope of the direct examination and speculative
28 and improper opinion. 8011
1 THE COURT: Sounds like she's got a long
2 list. I think I'll sustain the objection.
3 (Laughter.)
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Ms. Rowe, at some
6 point, did you learn that Santa Barbara sheriffs had
7 recorded a discussion with you?
8 A. You did? You did?
9 No, I didn't know that.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. Damn you guys. You don't share anything.
12 Q. Did you ever learn that any discussion you
13 had with the Santa Barbara sheriff was, in fact,
14 recorded?
15 A. Well, if -- if you're referring to I was
16 with them and, yeah, they were recording, so that's
17 what I thought was recording.
18 Did you bug my phone?
19 Q. So at some point you knew they were
20 recording -- at some point you knew they were
21 recording a discussion with you --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- right?
24 A. It was a discussion with me with Marc
25 Schaffel or with Ian Drew.
26 Q. Okay. How about with you just alone with an
27 officer?
28 A. Oh, when I was speaking with an officer, 8012
1 yes, there was a -- an interview that was done.
2 Q. Okay. And where did that interview take
3 place, if you know?
4 A. Calabasas. And I can't give you the name of
5 the place because I don't remember.
6 Q. Do you know what officer that was?
7 A. Officer Steve Robel. Sergeant Steve Robel,
8 actually.
9 Q. Do you know approximately when that
10 interview took place?
11 A. Not off the top of my head, no.
12 Q. Do you recall, at one point, you mentioned
13 the possibility of going to The Enquirer? Do you
14 remember that?
15 A. Me?
16 Q. Yes. I don't know if it was -- you were
17 joking or not, but do you recall saying something
18 like that?
19 A. It would have been totally joking and
20 sarcastic and, “Let's see if we can mess with them.”
21 Q. Well, you talked about at one point Ms.
22 Arvizo's orchestrating lawsuits. Do you remember
23 that?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. And you referred to the J.C. Penney case,
26 correct?
27 A. Probably.
28 Q. Did you do your own research into what Janet 8013
1 Arvizo had done in the J.C. Penney case?
2 A. Just by asking people who had heard
3 something on the news. And I hadn't sat down at the
4 computer and actually properly researched it, no.
5 Q. And you told the officer that you --
6 MR. ZONEN: I'm going to object as hearsay
7 and irrelevant, exceeding the scope of direct.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you spoke to the
10 officer in that interview, were you trying to in
11 some way protect Michael from the Arvizos?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And that's because you thought the Arvizos
14 were taking advantage of Michael, right?
15 MR. ZONEN: I'm going to object as lack of
16 foundation, exceeding the scope of direct.
17 THE COURT: Sustained.
18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: At one point you told
19 Officer Robel that Schaffel had made seven and a
20 half million dollars off your interview. Do you
21 remember that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did Schaffel tell you that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you have any reason not to believe that
26 he'd made seven and a half million?
27 A. I don't know what shows go for. Michael
28 doesn't do interviews, so I'm sure that anything 8014
1 that was televised or produced was worth a lot of
2 money.
3 Q. Did Schaffel offer you any of that money?
4 A. No, and I wouldn't have taken it.
5 Q. Did you know -- did you have any idea why
6 Schaffel told you he made seven and a half million
7 off your interview?
8 A. He likes to brag. “Look what I have. Look
9 what I've done.”
10 Q. Did Schaffel tell you any of that money went
11 to Dieter?
12 A. He didn't. The way he spoke about it was
13 all him.
14 Q. Did he tell you any of that money went to
15 Konitzer?
16 A. No, again, all to him.
17 Q. Was it your understanding that Schaffel,
18 Dieter and Konitzer worked together or -- what was
19 your understanding of their relationship?
20 A. Michael had a previous relationship with
21 Dieter and Ronald, so if Marc wanted to get in touch
22 with Michael he could go through them, if he
23 couldn't get ahold of him himself. But I think Marc
24 felt that he handled everything in the United
25 States. And that they were involved in the European
26 things and in marketing or something.
27 Q. Did you think Dieter, Konitzer and Schaffel
28 were competing with each other at all? 8015
1 A. There was some --
2 MR. ZONEN: I'm going to object as
3 irrelevant, exceeding the scope of direct.
4 MR. MESEREAU: Sustained.
5 Q. Did Schaffel ever tell you he was in any
6 company with Dieter and Konitzer?
7 MR. ZONEN: I'm going to object as exceeding
8 the scope of direct and hearsay.
9 THE COURT: Sustained.
10 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember telling
11 the officer who interviewed you, “Michael is very,
12 very easily manipulated especially if he's scared”?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You were trying to tell the officers that
15 Michael was being taken advantage of by these
16 people, weren't you?
17 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.
18 THE COURT: Overruled.
19 You may answer.
20 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry?
21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You were trying to tell
22 the officer that you thought Michael was being taken
23 advantage of by these people, right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, you indicated in your interview you
26 were there for about nine to ten hours, right?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. How much of that time do you think you were 8016
1 answering questions?
2 A. It was -- we were on that stupid couch for
3 seven hours, with no breaks except to change film.
4 Q. And was that you and Mr. Drew?
5 A. I was on the couch. Drew -- Ian was
6 opposite me, either in a chair -- I think he was in
7 a chair.
8 Q. Okay. So if you think you know, how many
9 hours of actual interview do you think there was
10 with you?
11 A. The full seven hours. Except for the -- the
12 time that it took to change videotapes.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. I'm sorry. We didn't break for anything.
15 Q. And you have before today, I believe you
16 said last night the most recent time, seen a DVD of
17 what purports to be that interview, right?
18 A. It's not the whole interview.
19 Q. And is that about two and a half to three
20 hours long, the one you saw?
21 A. It was about three hours.
22 Q. And who gave you that DVD to watch?
23 A. I asked for a copy from Mr. Zonen.
24 Q. And you watched it last night, right?
25 A. Yes, I did.
26 Q. And correct me if I'm wrong, I think what
27 you're saying is that many hours of your interview
28 don't appear in that DVD, right? 8017
1 A. I don't see how I could have sat there for
2 seven hours and only had three hours on tape. I
3 don't remember any breaks except for when the
4 cameras were -- the film was being changed. I
5 interrupted the interview to tell them the film
6 was -- the camera was blinking, the light. I didn't
7 want to be in the middle of the statement and have
8 to start over again, to tell them that the lights
9 were blinking, to change the film.
10 I saw cuts in that film, in that tape, that
11 were -- had nothing with me saying, “It's blinking,
12 take it off,” so there's -- there is stuff missing
13 from that video.
14 Q. When Schaffel told you he'd made seven and a
15 half million dollars off your interview, did he ever
16 tell you who he made the money from?
17 A. I think he said it was FOX Network. And
18 someone in Europe. But I don't remember who it was
19 in Europe.
20 Q. And was it your understanding that he kept
21 all the footage of your interview?
22 A. Yes. It was all taken upstairs to a bedroom
23 where they did the editing that night.
24 Q. Okay. How did you know they did the editing
25 that night?
26 A. I was there for about an hour when they were
27 doing it.
28 Q. Were you upstairs in the bedroom while they 8018
1 were doing it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And who is “they”?
4 A. Marc was in and out. I don't remember --
5 I think it was Christian that was doing the editing.
6 Ian told me he was going to be there all night to
7 get the video done.
8 Q. Now, Mr. Jackson wasn't there for any of
9 that interview, was he?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Were you being asked to assist in the
12 editing upstairs?
13 A. No, I wanted to see what they were putting
14 down. I'm a bit of a control freak.
15 Q. So did they ever object to you being
16 upstairs and watching what they were doing?
17 A. No, it just got to be too late and too long
18 a day and I had to go home. I had school.
19 Q. But during the hour that you were upstairs
20 watching the editing, what did you see them do?
21 A. The very beginning of the interview talking
22 about Michael, me speaking about Michael and what
23 kind of a person he is. And the -- I gave them a
24 list, not a written list, but a verbal list of
25 things that I wanted included to make sure.
26 Q. In that interview, what kind of a person did
27 you say Michael was?
28 A. Generous. To a fault. Giving and kind. 8019
1 Q. Anything else do you recall saying?
2 A. Good father. Great with kids. Put other
3 people ahead of him. Things like that.
4 Q. If you can, do you remember anything else
5 you said about Michael?
6 A. He's a brilliant businessman. There's
7 different Michaels. There's, like, my Michael.
8 Q. Do you want some water?
9 A. And the Michael that everyone else sees.
10 Q. And that would be the public Michael?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That would be Michael the entertainer,
13 right?
14 A. Michael the entertainer, yeah.
15 Q. When did you first meet Michael?
16 A. In the .80s.
17 Q. And how did you meet Michael?
18 A. Through my office when I worked with Dr.
19 Klein.
20 Q. Okay. And what was your position with Dr.
21 Klein at the time?
22 A. I was an assistant.
23 Q. And Michael went to Dr. Klein for various
24 treatments, right?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And do you recall when he first went to Dr.
27 Klein?
28 A. Yes. The very first day, yes. I was not 8020
1 his nurse then.
2 Q. And what was the treatment he was receiving;
3 do you know? Was it a skin condition he had?
4 MR. ZONEN: I'm going to object at this
5 point. The question is, What was the treatment he
6 was receiving?”
7 MR. MESEREAU: I'll withdraw it. I'll
8 withdraw it.
9 THE COURT: All right. It's withdrawn.
10 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You met him in the early
11 .80s?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you continued to know him through the
14 .90s until you were married, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And how long did you work for Dr. Klein?
17 A. From .79 to 2001, I think it was, or 2000.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. I don't remember the exact dates.
20 Q. Okay. Do you recall ever going on tour with
21 Michael?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. And when did you first go on a tour with
24 Michael?
25 A. What was the tour after “Bad”? Was it the
26 “History” tour, or “Dangerous”?
27 It was the “Dangerous” tour, I'm sorry.
28 MR. ZONEN: I'm going to object to 8021
1 communications between the witness and the defendant
2 and ask that that be stricken.
3 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
4 THE COURT: Stricken.
5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Let me try and ask it
6 again. What was the first tour that you went on
7 with Michael?
8 A. “Dangerous.”
9 Q. And approximately when was that?
10 A. I don't remember. That was -- all those
11 tours. And they all just ran together, because it
12 was a long schedule.
13 Q. Okay. Was it in the .80s or .90s; do you
14 know?
15 A. I think it was in the early .90s.
16 Q. Okay. And where did that tour go to?
17 A. I think it started in Bangkok, and went
18 throughout Asia, Japan, Singapore. Then there was a
19 break. And then it went to Europe.
20 I did go to the last concert in Gutenberg, I
21 think on the tour previous to that. Because
22 Gutenberg wasn't on the “Dangerous” tour.
23 Q. And were you traveling with Michael along
24 with his physician?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Okay. And you then went on another tour
27 after that?
28 A. Yes. 8022
1 Q. And what tour was that?
2 A. “History.”
3 Q. Okay. And approximately when was that?
4 A. It seemed like it was right after
5 “Dangerous,” within a year or two after “Dangerous.”
6 It could have been a little bit longer than that.
7 Q. And you were on that tour along with the
8 physician as well, right?
9 A. We were married when that was going on.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. So, no. Klein would come every once in a
12 while, but I was there every three weeks to see
13 little Michael and Michael and to see how everybody
14 was, because I was still working. I couldn't more
15 often than that.
16 Q. When did you first meet Mr. Sneddon?
17 A. The day before yesterday. Two days ago.
18 When did I come up here? I came up here Tuesday.
19 Today's Thursday. I came up here Tuesday.
20 Q. I mean, your first time you ever met Mr.
21 Sneddon was the early .90s, wasn't it?
22 A. I don't remember. I remember I did a
23 deposition. I thought it was for a woman. I don't
24 remember. I don't remember any of that part. I
25 tend to block out unpleasantries. I don't remember
26 any of that part. I don't remember if Mr. Sneddon
27 was there or not.
28 Q. Okay. 8023
1 A. I think -- I think I just met him.
2 Q. Okay. Do you know when you were first
3 contacted about this particular case by anyone
4 associated with the sheriffs or the prosecution?
5 A. It was -- there was a voice mail on my car
6 phone, which I don't give out because it's stupid to
7 give out a car phone if you're not in the car all
8 the time. And they had gotten it through -- somehow
9 probably through Schaffel, because that's how the
10 tabloids got it. Because Marc Schaffel handed out
11 that phone number, because that was the only one he
12 had, because I had to call release from that line to
13 call his house. So there was a message left, and I
14 did not return the call.
15 And then on a trip back from Palm Springs,
16 probably eight or nine o'clock at night, it was
17 dark, I'm going to guess it could have been a little
18 bit later, but eight o'clock or 9:00 the phone rang,
19 and I thought it might have been someone --
20 something wrong with one of my animals or something.
21 And I answered it, and it was Sergeant Robel.
22 Q. Okay. And do you know approximately when
23 that was?
24 A. I don't. I'm sorry.
25 Q. Was it like a year ago?
26 A. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
27 Q. Now, you said Schaffel was giving
28 information to the tabloids? 8024
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was he giving information to the tabloids
3 about Michael Jackson, to your knowledge?
4 A. He was leaking information.
5 Q. To your knowledge, was he trying to profit
6 from the tabloids with information about Michael
7 Jackson?
8 A. I don't think monetarily. I think maybe
9 through manipulation, you know, “Maybe I can stop
10 this,” or “I can talk to so and so and fix it.”
11 Q. Has it been your belief that Schaffel has
12 been trying to create problems for Michael Jackson
13 so he could profit from them?
14 MR. ZONEN: Objection. Asked and answered
15 and speculative, lack of foundation.
16 THE COURT: Sustained.
17 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did Schaffel ever tell you
18 in your conversations that he was going to generate
19 crises around Michael Jackson so he could then find
20 ways to profit?
21 A. Just this lawsuit. And I don't know the
22 details of the lawsuit.
23 Q. Did he tell you he intends to make millions
24 from his lawsuit against Michael Jackson?
25 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.
26 THE COURT: Sustained.
27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did he tell you whether or
28 not Dieter or Konitzer are still doing business with 8025
1 him when you last talked to him?
2 A. When I was speaking with him, he didn't say
3 anything about business.
4 Q. But he said --
5 A. He was more concerned about
6 self-preservation at this point.
7 Q. He said he's still talking to them?
8 A. I think he is, yes. I think he is. I don't
9 know.
10 MR. ZONEN: The question is did he say.
11 THE WITNESS: I don't --
12 THE COURT: Is that an objection?
13 MR. ZONEN: That's an objection,
14 nonresponsive.
15 THE COURT: Sustained. Stricken.
16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You met with Mr. Zonen
17 last night; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you have a long meeting with him?
20 A. I watched the video there. And I spoke with
21 him for maybe 20, 25 minutes.
22 Q. Did Mr. Zonen talk to you about what he was
23 going to ask you today?
24 A. No.
25 Q. He just asked you pretty much to watch the
26 video?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And where did this meeting take place? 8026
1 Don't give me an address, if it's where you were --
2 A. Oh. It's in an office that they had.
3 Q. That's the District Attorney's Office?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. I don't know the address. So I'm lost.
7 Q. When was the last time any representative of
8 the sheriff's office asked you to record somebody?
9 A. I want to say last year.
10 THE COURT: Let's take our break.
11 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor.
12 (Recess taken.)
13 --o0o--
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 8027
1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2
3
4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE )
5 OF CALIFORNIA, )
6 Plaintiff, )
7 -vs- ) No. 1133603
8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
9 Defendant. )
10
11
12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR,
13 CSR #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby
14 certify:
15 That the foregoing pages 7975 through 8027
16 contain a true and correct transcript of the
17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled
18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at
19 said proceedings on April 28, 2005, and thereafter
20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided
21 transcription under my direction.
22 DATED: Santa Maria, California,
23 April 28, 2005.
24
25
26
27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 8028
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
5
6
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
13
14
15
16
17 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
18
19 THURSDAY, APRIL 28, 2005
20
21 8:38 A.M.
22
23 (PAGES 8029 THROUGH 8156)
24
25
26
27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 8029
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney -and-
8 MAG NICOLA, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
9 1112 Santa Barbara Street Santa Barbara, California 93101
10
11
12 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU
13 BY: THOMAS A. MESEREAU, JR., ESQ. -and-
14 SUSAN C. YU, ESQ. 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700
15 Los Angeles, California 90067
16 -and-
17 SANGER & SWYSEN BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ.
18 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C Santa Barbara, California 93101
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 8030
1 I N D E X
2
3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Nicola is listed as “N” on index. Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index.
6 Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index. Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index.
7
8
9 PLAINTIFF'S VOIR
10 WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS DIRE
11 JACKSON,
12 Deborah Rowe 8033-Z
13 FINSILVER, Iris Joan 8052-Z
14 DIETZ,
15 Andrew R. 8058-SN 8100-SA 8109-SN 8095-SA
16 SCHWARTZ,
17 Jeffrey 8110-N 8121-SA
18 DANKO, Crystalee 8131-N
19 SIMMONS,
20 Jennifer 8141-N
21 CORRAL, JR. Joe J. 8147-N
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 8031
1 E X H I B I T S
2 FOR IN PLAINTIFF'S NO. DESCRIPTION I.D. EVID.
3
4 223-249 Records of Air Apparent, Inc. 8061 8066
5 450 Nextel records 8141 8146
6 455 Sprint records 8132 8137
7 457 Verizon California
8 records 8147 8151
9 458 Talk America records 8111 8112
10 459 Verizon New York records 8147
11 852 Air Apparent, Inc.
12 Itinerary/Invoice Record 8066 8068
13 853 Five-page Air Apparent, Inc., record 8067 8068
14 854 Three-page Client Summary,
15 February 5 through February 12, 2003 8080 8097
16
17 855 Thirteen-page Client Summary, February 12
18 through March 31, 2003 8080 8097
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 8032
1 THE COURT: Counsel?
2 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.
3 Your Honor, we have no further questions,
4 and we withdraw our motion.
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
6
7 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. ZONEN:
9 Q. How many conversations did you have with
10 Ronald Konitzer?
11 A. One or two.
12 Q. Over the telephone?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the length of each of those
15 conversations?
16 A. Minutes.
17 Q. Minutes? Did you ever see Ronald Konitzer
18 interact with Michael Jackson?
19 A. Not since I had met him in Europe on tour
20 years before.
21 Q. So you're talking about conversations that
22 may have taken place when, in the early .90s?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. Since the early .90s, have you
25 seen him interact with Mr. Konitzer?
26 A. Physically, no. Just on the phone.
27 Q. Did you hear him interact with him on the
28 telephone, in other words, conversations where you 8033
1 were present?
2 A. When Mr. Schaffel was setting up the
3 interview --
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. -- Ronald was there with Michael.
6 Q. Was that the only conversation that you had,
7 were party to --
8 A. No.
9 Q. -- involving Mr. Jackson and Mr. Konitzer?
10 A. No. There was one or two after that.
11 Just -- after the interview, thanking me, saying
12 everything was going to be fine, and I don't recall
13 if there was another one after that.
14 Q. Was Mr. Jackson involved in those
15 conversations?
16 A. No, he was not.
17 Q. That was just a conversation with you and
18 Mr. Konitzer?
19 A. No, Marc would have been on the phone. He
20 did not have my phone number.
21 Q. All right. So it was a conversation
22 involving you, Marc Schaffel and Ronald Konitzer?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the subject of that conversations was
25 what?
26 A. Superficial. About the video.
27 Q. Nothing about Mr. Jackson's business
28 affairs? 8034
1 A. No. Not with Michael on the phone, no.
2 Q. Did any of them talk to you about issues
3 dealing with the Martin Bashir video?
4 A. Before or after the interview?
5 Q. After the interview.
6 A. When the interview aired, it did, and they
7 said that the interview that I had done would help
8 deflect and do damage control.
9 Q. Did they say that to you more than once?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did Mr. Konitzer say positive things to you
12 about your involvement in this interview?
13 A. About my possible involvement?
14 Q. No.
15 A. I'm sorry.
16 Q. Did he say positive things to you about your
17 involvement?
18 A. Yeah. Yeah.
19 Q. Did he say that you were helpful?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Did you believe that you were?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Was that your intent?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. Do you still like Michael
26 Jackson?
27 A. I have very strong memories and feelings for
28 the Michael that I have known but haven't seen since 8035
Subject: April 28, 2005 
Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:40 pm
