1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
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11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A. MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067
14 -and-
15 SANGER & SWYSEN
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C
17 Santa Barbara, California 93101
18 -and-
19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ.
20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs, California 90670
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1 E X H I B I T S
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3 FOR IN
4 DEFENDANT’S NO. DESCRIPTION I.D. EVID.
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6 5001 Father’s Day card and envelope 1299 1300
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1 THE COURT: Go ahead.
2 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.
3 Q. Do you know approximately when your family --
4 THE BAILIFF: You have to turn your mike on.
5 MR. MESEREAU: Oh, okay. Sorry. I’ll start
6 again.
7 Q. Do you know approximately when your family
8 left Neverland and never came back.
9 A. No.
10 Q. It was in the spring of 2003, wasn’t it.
11 A. I don’t know.
12 Q. Well, it was -- let me try and see if we can
13 get to that place. You went to Miami in February of
14 2003, right.
15 A. I don’t remember. I just know when we
16 finally left, we had enough time to go back to
17 school.
18 Q. Okay. And when did school start.
19 A. September.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. September.
22 Q. Do you think you were at Neverland in June
23 2003.
24 A. I don’t know.
25 Q. Do you think you were there in April of
26 2003.
27 A. I don’t know.
28 Q. Okay. Have you ever discussed with your mom 1257
1 when you left Neverland and never came back.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. Do you think you were at Neverland in
4 August of 2003.
5 A. I don’t know.
6 Q. Were you there right before you started
7 school.
8 A. No.
9 Q. You actually left many months before you
10 started school, didn’t you.
11 A. No. We were in school.
12 Q. You were in school when you left Neverland,
13 never to come back.
14 A. No. No. I didn’t understand your question.
15 Q. Okay. Let me try and not confuse you.
16 You come back from Miami, right.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. And you go to Neverland, right. And at some
19 point you left Neverland, right.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you’re back from Miami, you stay at
22 Neverland, and then you leave. Where do you go when
23 you leave.
24 A. Back to Jay’s house.
25 Q. Okay. That’s Jay Jackson, right.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And is that when you had the interviews at
28 Jay Jackson’s house. 1258
1 A. When we left the last time.
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. We never had an interview.
4 Q. Never had an interview at Jay Jackson’s
5 house.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. Did you ever have an interview with
8 three social workers at Jay Jackson’s house.
9 A. Yes, but that was during this whole thing at
10 Neverland.
11 Q. Okay. I’m just trying to find out
12 approximately when -- excuse me.
13 Yesterday you told the jury that at one
14 point you left Neverland for the last time, right.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you never came back again, right.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And that was before you went to see Attorney
19 Larry Feldman, wasn’t it.
20 A. Before we left Neverland.
21 Q. No. You left Neverland for the last time
22 before you first met Attorney Larry Feldman, right.
23 A. I don’t understand the question.
24 Q. Okay. At some point you met Attorney Larry
25 Feldman, right.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And you went to see Attorney Larry Feldman
28 with your mom, right. 1259
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And that was after you had left Neverland
3 for the last time, right.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And at some point, Larry Feldman sent you to
6 a psychologist named Katz, right.
7 A. I didn’t know -- I didn’t know he sent us.
8 Q. Okay. Well, you went to see a psychologist
9 named Stanley Katz, right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you saw him after you first met Attorney
12 Larry Feldman, right.
13 A. Yes. Yes.
14 Q. And you met Attorney Larry Feldman after you
15 met Attorney William Dickerman, right.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And this all happened in the spring of 2003,
18 didn’t it.
19 A. I don’t -- I don’t remember.
20 Q. You don’t know. You were never at Neverland
21 in the summer of 2003, were you.
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Pardon me.
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And you discussed many times with the Santa
26 Barbara Sheriffs the fact that you left Neverland in
27 the spring of 2003 and never came back, right.
28 A. Wait. 1260
1 Q. Sure.
2 A. I was there in 2003.
3 Q. No, no. You were there in 2003, but you
4 left in the spring, didn’t you.
5 A. I don’t remember when I left.
6 Q. Okay. Have you ever discussed with the
7 sheriffs when you left.
8 A. I don’t remember.
9 Q. Okay. Do you know if you were there in July
10 of 2003.
11 A. Don’t remember.
12 Q. Okay. You could have been.
13 A. Probably.
14 Q. Pardon me.
15 A. Probably.
16 Q. Okay. You told the jury the first night you
17 spent at Neverland, you slept where.
18 A. First out of all the trips.
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. In the guest unit.
21 Q. And that was your first night, right.
22 A. Of the first time I ever went to Neverland.
23 Q. Okay. Now, the first time you went to
24 Neverland, do you recall having dinner with Michael
25 Jackson in the main dining room.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And who was there for that dinner.
28 A. My mom -- wait. I know it was my dad, my 1261
1 brother, me, my sister, Michael. I think my mom was
2 there also.
3 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this: You don’t
4 recall seeing Psychologist Sanely Katz in May of
5 2003, right.
6 A. I don’t -- I don’t know the dates.
7 Q. Okay. Would it refresh your recollection if
8 I just show you his testimony. Would that help you.
9 A. His.
10 Q. If I showed you what Psychologist Stanley
11 Katz told the grand jury.
12 A. Sure. But I don’t know the dates.
13 Q. Okay. If I showed you what he said, would
14 that remind you.
15 A. I never knew the dates.
16 Q. Okay. Okay. So even if you saw it, it
17 wouldn’t --
18 A. No.
19 Q. -- wouldn’t jog your memory.
20 Okay. Okay. And if I told you you saw
21 Stanley Katz again in June of 2003, that wouldn’t
22 jog your memory, would it.
23 A. No.
24 Q. All right. And if I told you when you first
25 saw Attorney Larry Feldman, that wouldn’t jog your
26 memory, would it.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Okay. But you never went back after you met 1262
1 Psychologist Katz, right.
2 MR. SNEDDON: Excuse me, Your Honor. Vague.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
5 Q. Do you know if you ever returned to
6 Neverland after you first met Psychologist Stanley
7 Katz.
8 A. We never returned after we met Stanley Katz.
9 Q. Okay. And would it be true -- excuse me.
10 It is true that you never returned to Neverland
11 after you met Attorney Larry Feldman, right.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you first spoke to the Santa Barbara
14 Sheriffs after you met Stanley Katz, right.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you first went to the Santa Barbara
17 Sheriffs after you met Attorney Larry Feldman,
18 right.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is there anything I could show you that
21 would remind you --
22 A. I never knew the dates.
23 Q. Okay -- - of when you met Attorney Feldman.
24 Don’t know.
25 A. Never knew.
26 Q. All right. Okay. Do you have any idea what
27 month it was when you last went to Neverland.
28 A. No. 1263
1 Q. Okay. All right. But you never were there
2 in August of 2003, were you.
3 A. I don’t remember the dates.
4 Q. You don’t know, okay.
5 Now, you told the Santa Barbara Sheriffs
6 about the locks in Michael Jackson’s home, did you
7 not.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You said his bedroom has double doors,
10 right.
11 A. Yes. When you first enter the room.
12 Q. And you said there are several locks, right.
13 A. There’s seven locks.
14 Q. Seven locks.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Including a combination lock, right.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How did you know there were seven locks.
19 A. I don’t know. I just remember looking at
20 them.
21 Q. Did you know the combination to that
22 combination lock.
23 A. Do you mean the digit key pad.
24 Q. Well, you told the police there’s a
25 combination lock, didn’t you.
26 A. I said there was a key pad.
27 Q. Okay. Was that the code you were talking
28 about. 1264
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. And did that code unlock the
3 seven locks.
4 A. No, it only unlocked one lock. The other
5 six locks were unlocked manually.
6 Q. Were what.
7 A. Were unlocked by hand.
8 Q. Okay. Have you ever unlocked any of those
9 several locks.
10 A. I really don’t remember.
11 Q. You don’t remember at all.
12 A. No.
13 Q. You were caught trying to unlock those locks
14 one time, weren’t you.
15 A. When.
16 Q. At Neverland.
17 A. I don’t remember that.
18 Q. Do you recall anyone from security ever
19 catching you trying to open those locks.
20 A. From the outside.
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. You -- it’s impossible to open them from the
23 outside.
24 Q. Did you ever try to do it.
25 A. No.
26 Q. Were you ever caught by any security person
27 trying to open those locks.
28 A. No. 1265
1 Q. Don’t recall that at all.
2 A. If -- if I ever went to the door and punched
3 in the -- the key code, if it didn’t open, I just
4 left. I never tried to force it open.
5 Q. So, you’re telling the jury that you did go,
6 on at least one occasion --
7 A. No, I’m saying if that ever happened.
8 Q. If it ever happened.
9 A. If those two doors were locked.
10 Q. Right. If they were locked and you didn’t
11 know the code, you couldn’t get in, right.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And are you saying you tried a code one time
14 that didn’t work.
15 A. No, I’m just saying.
16 Q. Just saying what.
17 A. If the door was locked and you punch in the
18 key code, there’s no other way you could possibly
19 get in.
20 Q. All right. Because you tried it and it
21 didn’t work one time, right.
22 A. I never said I did.
23 Q. Did you.
24 A. I’m just saying if I tried, that would
25 happen.
26 Q. Did you ever try that.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Never once. 1266
1 A. No.
2 Q. And never were caught by anyone trying to
3 use the wrong code.
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. Do you know if your brother was ever
6 caught trying to use the wrong code to get in.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. Now, you told the sheriffs that the
9 code was either 1960 or 1849, right.
10 A. It was 1960 and 1849.
11 Q. How did you know that.
12 A. Because 1849 was the master code. And 1960,
13 1960 got you into Michael’s room.
14 Q. Okay. You told the sheriffs that 1849 is a
15 general combination for Neverland, right.
16 A. Yes. It’s the master code.
17 Q. And 1960 is a combination for Michael’s
18 bedroom, right.
19 A. Yes. It’s the code for Michael’s bedroom.
20 Q. Which one are you telling the jury the
21 security guard gave you.
22 A. 1849.
23 Q. Do you know why the security guard gave it
24 to you and not Michael.
25 A. We never really asked Michael for that. He
26 just showed us one day.
27 Q. The security guard did.
28 A. Yes. 1267
1 Q. And you remember the codes to this day,
2 right.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How many times do you think you’ve used
5 those codes.
6 A. A lot of times.
7 Q. How many times; do you think.
8 A. Probably over a hundred.
9 Q. Over a hundred times you’ve been to Michael
10 Jackson’s bedroom.
11 A. No, it gets you in everywhere.
12 Q. So you’ve probably used these codes to see
13 every room in Neverland, right.
14 A. No, I just -- I just knew the codes.
15 Q. Huh.
16 A. I memorized them.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. So I won’t get locked out.
19 Q. But you’ve used them about a hundred times
20 you said, right.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You’ve been into every single room at
23 Neverland, haven’t you.
24 A. At one point, yes.
25 Q. You went in with your brothers, right. Or,
26 excuse me, your brother, right.
27 A. In every room.
28 Q. Yes. 1268
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you go to every room by yourself.
3 A. No, I was either with -- I was with someone.
4 Q. Well, you weren’t always with Michael,
5 right.
6 A. I was probably in the toy room with Prince
7 and Paris and Grace.
8 Q. Okay. Did you let them into the room.
9 A. What.
10 Q. Did you use the code and let them into the
11 room.
12 A. No. Grace knew the code.
13 Q. I’m asking you if you remember how many
14 times you think you’ve used these codes --
15 A. A lot of times.
16 Q. -- to get into the rooms at Neverland. You
17 said about 100, right.
18 A. No, I’m guessing. I’m just saying I used
19 them a lot of times.
20 Q. Why did you pick the number 100.
21 A. I don’t know. I’m just trying to show that
22 I used them a lot of times.
23 Q. All right. And you used them many times
24 when Michael Jackson wasn’t even at Neverland,
25 right.
26 A. He was there. It got you into the house.
27 It got you into his bedroom. Got you into the front
28 door. 1269
1 Q. But you’ve used those codes many times when
2 Michael Jackson wasn’t even at Neverland, right.
3 A. When.
4 Q. I’m asking you.
5 A. I never used them. What did you say.
6 Q. No, let me rephrase it.
7 You personally, Star Arvizo, have used those
8 codes to get into rooms at Neverland when Michael
9 Jackson wasn’t even there, right.
10 A. No. No.
11 Q. You’re saying --
12 A. We barely learned those codes after the
13 Miami trip. I never knew them before.
14 Q. Do you recall ever being caught in the wine
15 cellar --
16 A. The wine cellar doesn’t have a combination
17 lock.
18 Q. Do you recall ever being caught in the wine
19 cellar drinking wine when Michael Jackson wasn’t
20 present.
21 A. Never.
22 Q. Never happened.
23 A. It -- it’s always locked, and it always --
24 it -- to unlock it you need a key. There’s no
25 combination to get in there.
26 Q. Let me repeat my question.
27 Do you recall ever being caught in the wine
28 cellar at Neverland with Gavin drinking wine when 1270
1 Michael Jackson wasn’t even there.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Are you saying that never happened.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you ever recall being caught at any other
6 location in Neverland drinking wine when Michael
7 Jackson wasn’t there.
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. That never happened.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. Now, you just told the jury
12 voluntarily where the key is to get in the wine
13 cellar, right.
14 A. No, I said that the door, the wine cellar
15 needed a key to get in there.
16 Q. And you knew where the key was, correct.
17 A. I knew it was in the lounge.
18 Q. You knew where it was hanging in the lounge,
19 right.
20 A. Not exactly. I didn’t know where it was
21 hanging. I just knew it was in the lounge.
22 Q. Well, please describe the lounge for the
23 jury.
24 A. It has a closet, a couch, a rest room with a
25 shower. It was pretty small.
26 Q. You’ve been in the lounge many times,
27 haven’t you.
28 A. No. 1271
1 Q. How many times have you been in the lounge.
2 A. Once to put on a cooking shirt.
3 Q. You’ve been in the lounge once to put on a
4 cooking shirt.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And that’s the lounge that’s right next --
7 excuse me, that’s right next to the wine cellar,
8 correct.
9 A. No. The wine cellar’s in the arcade,
10 under -- downstairs.
11 Q. How do you get into the wine cellar.
12 A. You push a jukebox out of the stairs, and
13 you go downstairs.
14 Q. And when you go downstairs, what do you see.
15 A. It’s like a bomb shelter thing, almost.
16 There’s sleeping bags, there’s pillows. There’s
17 like canned sausages and a bunch of, like, little
18 Michael Jackson gold energy drinks. And you enter
19 into another small room which has a bunch of wine
20 and a bunch of alcohol in there.
21 Q. And to get into that room with the wine,
22 what do you have to do.
23 A. Need someone with a key.
24 Q. And where do you find the key.
25 A. I don’t know. I just knew it was in the
26 lounge, and Jesus had one, and that’s all I knew.
27 Q. Okay. Now, how many times have you been
28 down in the wine cellar. 1272
1 A. Twice.
2 Q. So when you described the lounge in detail,
3 you weren’t talking about the wine cellar, right.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You just described the little room right
6 next to the wine cellar, right.
7 A. No, I described a room that’s in the main
8 house. The wine cellar’s in the arcade.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. Away from the house.
11 Q. When you go into the wine cellar, you go
12 downstairs, right.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What does that stairs look like.
15 A. It’s wooden, and they go down. And they
16 have steps.
17 Q. And you go down the steps and what’s the
18 first thing you see.
19 A. A wall.
20 Q. Pardon me.
21 A. A wall.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. And then you look to your right and there’s
24 a door.
25 Q. Okay. And what does the door look like.
26 A. It’s wooden. And it looks like an
27 old-fashioned door.
28 Q. Okay. And if you’re facing the door and you 1273
1 look to your left, what do you see.
2 A. A wall.
3 Q. Okay. And if you’re facing the door and you
4 look to your right, what do you see.
5 A. The stairs leading up to the arcade.
6 Q. Is there any room close to the wine cellar.
7 A. No except a little room upstairs in the
8 arcade that had a bunch of books in it.
9 Q. Okay. And to get into that wine cellar,
10 there’s a key, correct.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And the key was hanging in one location,
13 correct.
14 A. I said I didn’t know where the key was.
15 Q. But you really did know where it was, didn’t
16 you.
17 A. Not really.
18 Q. Not really.
19 A. No.
20 Q. But you got the key one time yourself,
21 didn’t you.
22 A. I’ve never gotten the key myself.
23 Q. You asked for the key, didn’t you.
24 A. What.
25 Q. You asked for the key to the wine cellar at
26 one point, didn’t you.
27 A. Never. Never.
28 Q. You knew where the key was hanging -- 1274
1 A. No.
2 Q. -- because you were watched taking that key
3 at one point, weren’t you.
4 A. I never took the key at one point.
5 Q. Okay. All right. So how many times have
6 you been in the wine cellar, then.
7 A. Twice.
8 Q. All right. And you learned this description
9 of the wine cellar by just being there twice,
10 correct.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were you ever caught drinking wine in the
13 guest quarters.
14 A. Never.
15 Q. Never once.
16 A. Never.
17 Q. Never touched it at the guest quarters,
18 right.
19 A. Never.
20 Q. Okay. You gave a description of Michael’s
21 bedroom to the jury yesterday, right.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And what did you tell the jury you’d find on
24 the first floor.
25 A. The first floor.
26 Q. Yes. The first floor of Michael’s bedroom,
27 yes.
28 A. The room to the right or to the left. 1275
1 Q. Let’s take the room to the left. What do
2 you see in the room to the left.
3 A. All the way to the left.
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. There’s like -- there’s a counter with a
6 bunch of perfumes and colognes. There’s a mirror.
7 There’s another big mirror behind it. There’s
8 speakers. There’s a bunch of electric razors in a
9 drawer. There’s a big bathtub, Jacuzzi-type thing.
10 There used to be a reclining chair there. It
11 wasn’t -- you couldn’t -- it was -- it was like a
12 square cushion, and there was a cushioned chair, and
13 there’s a dresser. There’s a door with a small --
14 with a toilet in there. There’s glass doors all the
15 way to the end. There’s a big safe in there. What
16 else. There’s a -- yeah.
17 Q. And how about the room to the right.
18 A. All the way to the right, there’s another
19 counter with a bunch of stuff on it. There’s a
20 poster of Harry Potter and his two friends. There’s
21 a rest room all the way, if you keep walking down,
22 with a shower. There’s a closet to your left with a
23 bunch of clothes and a bunch of souvenirs from other
24 movies.
25 There’s -- when you first walk in, there’s a
26 closet with a bunch of pajamas. And if you go to
27 your left, there’s the stairs going up.
28 What else is there. There’s a -- that’s it. 1276
1 Q. You and your brother were caught in that
2 room when Michael Jackson wasn’t even at Neverland,
3 weren’t you.
4 A. To sleep, yeah.
5 Q. You and your brother used to go into that
6 room when Michael wasn’t even at Neverland, right.
7 A. Yes, Michael opened his room up to us so we
8 could sleep there while he was gone.
9 Q. You were actually asked to leave that room
10 when you were caught during a time when Michael
11 wasn’t even at Neverland, right.
12 A. No.
13 Q. And you and your brother rummaged through
14 every room in that bedroom area, correct.
15 A. No.
16 Q. You went snooping around the entire bedroom
17 area when Michael wasn’t even there, correct.
18 A. No.
19 Q. You went into that closet when Michael
20 wasn’t even there, correct.
21 A. No.
22 Q. How do you know there are pajamas in the
23 closet.
24 A. Because Michael showed us.
25 Q. So Michael was showing you every little bit
26 of the bedroom.
27 A. No, he just showed us where the pajamas
28 were. 1277
1 Q. And you were never caught in there and asked
2 to leave; is that what you’re saying.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Now, referring to Exhibit 86 --
5 May I approach the witness, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you.
8 Q. Star, I’m showing you a photograph that you
9 identified yesterday. The number is 86. Do you see
10 that.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And that’s a briefcase with some girlie
13 magazines, right.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you told the jury yesterday, they’re the
16 magazines you saw at Neverland, right.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And before you testified about these
19 magazines --
20 May I show the jury this, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you.
23 Shall I just hand it to them.
24 THE COURT: If that’s what you would like.
25 MR. SANGER: Tom, do you want to put it up
26 on the screen.
27 MR. MESEREAU: Sure.
28 MR. SANGER: I’ve turned this on. 1278
1 THE BAILIFF: It would be “Input 4.”
2 THE COURT: It would be “4”.
3 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, do you see that
4 briefcase, Star.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what you’re looking at is Exhibit 86,
7 right.
8 A. I don’t see the number.
9 Q. Okay. Just -- what you’re looking at is
10 a -- appears to be a black briefcase with some
11 girlie magazines, right.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And the first one says “Barely Legal” on it;
14 do you see that.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And it appears to be a blonde woman lifting
17 up her shirt, correct.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And it appears to be a blonde woman who’s
20 exposing her breasts, right.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And she appears to be wearing a dark pair of
23 shorts, right.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Before you testified yesterday you looked at
26 that photograph with Prosecutor Sneddon, correct.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. You told Prosecutor Sneddon that those are 1279
1 the magazines you had seen at Neverland, right.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You told Prosecutor Sneddon that Michael
4 Jackson had showed you those magazines, right.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Michael Jackson never showed you that
7 magazine, “Barely Legal,” did he.
8 A. What.
9 Q. Michael Jackson never showed you that
10 magazine, “Barely Legal,” did he.
11 A. He did show us.
12 Q. He did.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Well, Star, did you look at the date of the
15 magazine. It’s August of 2003, is it not.
16 A. Well, I never said that was exactly that
17 one.
18 Q. Well, your family had left Neverland many
19 months before, never to return, correct.
20 A. That -- I’m telling you that that wasn’t
21 exactly the one he showed us.
22 Q. That’s not what you said yesterday, and it’s
23 not what you said today, right.
24 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, that’s
25 argumentative.
26 THE COURT: Sustained.
27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you told the jury
28 yesterday that Michael Jackson showed you the 1280
1 magazine “Barely Legal,” you were not telling the
2 truth, right.
3 A. Um, I said that he did show us Barely Legal.
4 I didn’t say that he showed us that exact one. He
5 showed us those magazines.
6 Q. You told the jury yesterday that Michael
7 showed you the particular magazine depicted in the
8 photograph, didn’t you.
9 A. No. I said that he showed us those type of
10 magazines.
11 Q. You’re saying it now because you just found
12 out what the date is, right.
13 A. I never said those were exactly the ones.
14 Q. Okay. Okay. Did you discuss this issue
15 with Prosecutor Sneddon this morning.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Have you ever discussed this issue with any
18 prosecutor.
19 A. Never.
20 Q. Ever discussed this issue with any Santa
21 Barbara Sheriff’s officer.
22 A. Never.
23 Q. Okay. You testified yesterday to the jury
24 that you found that briefcase cracked open, correct.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. In fact, you and your brother were caught
27 trying to get into that briefcase, weren’t you.
28 A. No. 1281
1 Q. You deny that anyone at Neverland ever
2 caught you trying to get into the briefcase.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are there any locks at Neverland other than
5 the ones you described.
6 A. Any other.
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. There’s a lot more locks.
9 Q. Please tell the jury where the other locks
10 are.
11 A. Almost on every door.
12 Q. And how do you get into those locks.
13 A. On every single door.
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Do you want me to explain every lock.
16 Q. Sure, the ones you know about. Sure.
17 A. Mostly all locked from the inside, not -- I
18 don’t know what you’re trying to ask me.
19 Q. Well, I’d like you to tell the jury what you
20 know about each lock at Neverland.
21 A. There’s like hundreds of locks.
22 Q. Okay. Let’s take ten of them.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. Wherever they may be. Just tell the jury
25 what you know about those ten locks and where they
26 are.
27 A. They all lock from the inside.
28 Q. And how do you unlock them. 1282
1 A. From the inside.
2 Q. Is there any other way to unlock them.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Have you unlocked any of those locks, ever.
5 A. From the inside.
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. Probably coming out of the rest room.
8 Q. Which lock are you talking about.
9 A. The rest room lock.
10 Q. What other locks have you unlocked at
11 Neverland.
12 A. Um -- um -- rest room lock, door lock. What
13 else. I can’t really remember every lock I
14 unlocked.
15 Q. Do you remember testifying in front of the
16 Santa Barbara grand jury.
17 A. A little, yes.
18 Q. Do you remember the prosecutor handed you a
19 girlie magazine to look at.
20 A. When.
21 Q. When you were in front of the Santa Barbara
22 grand jury.
23 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
24 object; assumes facts not in evidence.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.
26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Were you ever asked to
27 look at a girlie magazine when you testified in
28 front of the Santa Barbara grand jury. 1283
1 A. I was never handed a girlie magazine.
2 Q. Has Mr. Sneddon ever shown you a girlie
3 magazine during your interviews.
4 A. No, except on the -- on the photo that you
5 just showed.
6 Q. Okay. And when was that.
7 A. When.
8 Q. When was that.
9 A. Just a moment ago.
10 Q. Okay. Just a moment ago.
11 A. Yes. I’m talking about the picture you just
12 showed a moment ago.
13 Q. Yes. Yes. He showed you that picture,
14 right.
15 A. Yes. In the grand jury.
16 Q. And did you testify in the grand jury that
17 you saw these magazines.
18 A. No, I said I saw those types of magazines.
19 Q. Okay. Mr. Arvizo --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- you told Mr. Sneddon, in no uncertain
22 terms, that those were the magazines you had seen,
23 didn’t you.
24 A. I said those -- those are the type of
25 magazines we saw.
26 Q. Okay. Had you ever seen any girlie
27 magazines in your life before you say Michael
28 Jackson showed them to you. 1284
1 A. Hmm, no.
2 Q. Never.
3 A. Well, I was only like 11, 12.
4 Q. Weren’t you caught at Neverland looking in
5 girlie magazines.
6 A. I said no.
7 Q. No one ever caught you and your brother
8 looking at girlie magazines at Neverland.
9 A. Never.
10 Q. Okay. Okay. And your testimony is until
11 you got to Neverland, you and your brother had never
12 looked at a girlie magazine at any time; is that
13 right.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Before you got to Neverland, had you
16 ever used a computer.
17 A. Yes. In school.
18 Q. Had you ever used one at home.
19 A. No.
20 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m a little late
21 on the trigger on this one, but I want to object to
22 that as vague and have it stricken in terms of what
23 point in time we’re talking about.
24 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase it, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: All right.
26 MR. SNEDDON: Could the question and the
27 answer be stricken, please.
28 THE COURT: Denied. 1285
1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Before your first visit to
2 Neverland, had you ever used a computer.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you know anything about computers before
5 you made your first visit to Neverland.
6 A. I knew I could punch in some keys and I
7 could spell a word.
8 Q. And where had you learned to do that.
9 A. At school, at word-processing class.
10 Q. Before you were first interviewed by the
11 Santa Barbara Sheriffs, did you know anything about
12 computers.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what did you know about computers at
15 that point.
16 A. How to type and how to surf the net.
17 Q. You knew how to surf the net before you
18 first went to Neverland, didn’t you.
19 A. I didn’t even know we had Internet. Well, I
20 might have, but never really --
21 Q. You say you might have.
22 A. Yeah, I might have, but I never really saw
23 the point of going there.
24 Q. When you were first interviewed by the Santa
25 Barbara Sheriffs, you told them about what you’ve
26 claimed Michael Jackson and Frank did with a
27 computer, right.
28 A. Yes. 1286
1 Q. And you told the Santa Barbara Sheriffs that
2 they found a site like the AOL, right.
3 A. Like the AOL.
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. Well, I was kind of nervous -- I was kind of
6 nervous in that interview. I might have dropped off
7 on half of my sentence.
8 Q. You were kind of nervous in the interview
9 and you might have dropped off like half of your
10 sentence.
11 A. Yes. Whenever -- well, that’s how I speak.
12 Whenever I’m nervous, I cut off part of my sentence.
13 Or -- I don’t know, I’m just -- that’s how I am.
14 Q. Has anyone showed you a record of your
15 interview before you testified today.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who.
18 A. D.A.’s Office.
19 Q. Excuse me.
20 A. The D.A.’s Office.
21 Q. Who in the D.A.’s Office showed you a
22 transcript of your interview before you testified
23 today.
24 A. What interview. The Santa Barbara.
25 Q. Yes.
26 A. It was mailed to me.
27 Q. And do you know who mailed it to you.
28 A. No. 1287
1 Q. Do you know when you received it.
2 A. About a month ago.
3 Q. Did you read it.
4 A. No.
5 Q. You didn’t read it at all.
6 A. Well, I did read it towards the end.
7 Q. Did you read the whole thing.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you then discuss that transcript with
10 anybody.
11 A. No.
12 Q. Never.
13 A. No. Tom told us not to.
14 Q. Okay. Well, I haven’t showed you that
15 portion of the transcript yet today, right.
16 A. What.
17 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I object as vague.
18 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase it. I’ll
19 rephrase.
20 Q. The part of the transcript where you told
21 the sheriffs about AOL - okay. --
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. -- when did you last see that page.
24 A. I don’t even remember seeing it.
25 Q. You never saw it.
26 A. No, I don’t remember seeing it, but it was
27 probably in there.
28 Q. Okay. Well, I’ll represent to you that your 1288
1 sentence does sort of break off.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. A lot of my sentences do.
5 Q. How did you know that sentence broke off.
6 A. Because when I’m nervous, that’s how I talk.
7 Q. Pardon me.
8 A. When I’m nervous, that’s how I talk.
9 Q. You clearly looked at that before you
10 testified today, didn’t you.
11 A. No. I didn’t look at those papers.
12 Q. Never looked at them once.
13 A. No. Probably looked at them when I got up
14 here, when -- no, not right here, but when I came up
15 to Santa Barbara.
16 Q. When you came up to Santa Barbara, you’re
17 saying you looked at your transcript of your police
18 interview, right.
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. I’m sorry, I’m not understanding what
21 you’re saying. And if I’m not being clear, just
22 tell me. Okay.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. There was a point in your sheriff’s
25 interview where you talked about Frank and Michael
26 Jackson showing you a computer, right.
27 A. Yes. It was the -- that was the same
28 computer my brother had. 1289
1 Q. And is that a computer that Michael Jackson
2 gave to your brother.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know when he gave it to him.
5 A. During the first visit.
6 Q. Okay. And you told the Santa Barbara
7 Sheriffs, like you told the jury yesterday, that
8 during that first visit, Michael Jackson and Frank
9 showed you the computer, right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You told the sheriffs they looked at a site
12 like AOL, correct.
13 A. I don’t -- I don’t know what I meant by
14 saying that.
15 Q. But you said it.
16 A. I know. I probably cut off the sentence.
17 Q. You’re saying that you told the sheriffs it
18 was a site like AOL, but you don’t know what AOL
19 means.
20 A. I probably meant we probably went on AOL and
21 we found a site there.
22 Q. Do you know what “AOL” means.
23 A. It’s an Internet company.
24 Q. When you told the Santa Barbara Sheriffs you
25 went on a site --
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. -- like AOL, you knew how to use the
28 Internet, right. 1290
1 A. No. I don’t remember saying that.
2 Q. When you were first interviewed by the Santa
3 Barbara Sheriffs --
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. First interview, okay.
6 A. Right.
7 Q. You told them Michael Jackson and Frank
8 showed you and your brother a site on the computer,
9 right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You told them it was a site like AOL, right.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You knew what AOL was when you mentioned
14 that, didn’t you.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Why did you just tell the jury you didn’t
17 know.
18 A. I knew it after my brother was -- was, I
19 don’t know, I don’t know, was connected or -- I
20 don’t know the word, but when he was -- because when
21 Michael gave him the laptop, he had someone call him
22 and set up an AOL account for my brother for his
23 laptop.
24 Q. Okay. You and your brother had looked at
25 Internet sites before you ever visited Neverland,
26 hadn’t you.
27 A. No. I had -- I was -- never really used the
28 Internet. 1291
1 Q. Your brother had, as far as you know, right.
2 A. No. I never -- never really monitored my
3 brother.
4 Q. Pardon me.
5 A. I never really monitored my brother.
6 Q. When Michael Jackson gave your brother a
7 computer --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- you and your brother already knew how to
10 use it, correct.
11 A. No. He called someone to hook it up. Well,
12 talked to my brother on the phone of how to hook it
13 up.
14 Q. You told the police in your first interview
15 you looked at www dot p-u-s-s-y dot com.
16 A. No, I was making an example that I was
17 trying to say, that wasn’t the exact site. I’m just
18 saying, I was just making an example.
19 Q. Okay. You also told the police you might
20 have looked at www dot t-e-e-n p-u-s-s-y dot com,
21 right.
22 A. No. I never said that.
23 Q. You never said that to the sheriffs.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
26 you their report.
27 A. Sure.
28 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor. 1292
1 THE COURT: Yes.
2 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
3 look at that page.
4 A. Yes, but --
5 Q. “But” what.
6 A. I never said that. That’s just a paragraph
7 that somebody wrote.
8 Q. So you never said that to the Santa Barbara
9 Sheriffs --
10 A. I might have, but I don’t remember saying
11 it.
12 Q. Well, you are saying that if it appears in a
13 report, it’s wrong.
14 A. Well, I’m saying I never remember saying it.
15 Q. Okay. Star, you and your brother were
16 caught at Neverland looking at computer sites when
17 Michael wasn’t even there, right.
18 A. There’s no computers at Neverland.
19 Q. Your brother had one.
20 A. At the beginning. But then it broke, and
21 then we never had it again. And the only other
22 computer there was Frank’s computer, and Frank took
23 it everywhere he went.
24 Q. Okay. So you never were caught by
25 anybody --
26 A. No.
27 Q. -- looking at adult material sites on a
28 computer. 1293
1 A. No.
2 Q. Is that correct.
3 A. There’s no computers in Neverland.
4 Q. Okay. Now, did you tell the sheriffs that
5 Michael Jackson kept your family away from clocks.
6 A. Well, we never knew the time.
7 Q. Well, did you tell the Santa Barbara
8 Sheriffs that, “Michael Jackson would never let us
9 look at clocks,” or words to that effect.
10 A. Words -- could I see it.
11 Q. I’m just asking you.
12 A. No. Well, yes. Probably said it to an
13 extent like that.
14 Q. Well, just tell the jury, if you would, how
15 you remember saying it.
16 A. I just remember saying that -- I don’t
17 remember how exactly how I said it.
18 Q. Well, you said words to the effect, “Michael
19 Jackson kept my family away from clocks and time,”
20 right.
21 A. Were those my exact words.
22 Q. No, I’m saying, words to that effect. Do
23 you remember exactly how you said it to the sheriff.
24 A. No. I don’t know exactly.
25 Q. Do you remember roughly how you said it to
26 the sheriffs.
27 A. Not really.
28 Q. Did you say anything like that to the 1294
1 sheriffs.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Please tell the jury what you told the
4 sheriffs.
5 A. I’m going to be guessing, because I don’t
6 know my exact words.
7 Q. Okay. I’m not asking for your exact words.
8 I’m just asking you for generally what you said.
9 A. They kept us away from the clocks. We
10 didn’t know the exact time or the date or nothing.
11 Q. Would you agree that overlooking Neverland
12 is a huge clock.
13 A. Yes. It’s a flower clock.
14 Q. Yes. And to the right of that big flower
15 clock is another clock, correct.
16 A. Probably.
17 Q. There are clocks all over Neverland,
18 correct.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you and your brothers used to run all
21 around Neverland, right.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You wanted the sheriffs to think that you
24 and your family were imprisoned and kept away from
25 clocks.
26 A. No.
27 Q. That’s why you told them that lie, right.
28 A. No. 1295
1 Q. If there are clocks all over Neverland, if
2 there’s a big flower clock on a hill overlooking
3 Neverland, and if you and your brothers were running
4 freely around Neverland, why did you tell the Santa
5 Barbara Sheriffs “We were kept away from clocks and
6 time”.
7 A. Because they were wrong and we were kept
8 away from them. We weren’t able to know the time.
9 Q. Your mother told you to say that, didn’t
10 she.
11 A. No.
12 Q. It was a lie, wasn’t it.
13 A. No.
14 Q. It defies common sense, doesn’t it.
15 A. Can you explain that.
16 Q. You don’t know what that means.
17 A. I know what common sense is.
18 Q. Everywhere you go at Neverland, you can see
19 clocks, right.
20 A. Not everywhere.
21 Q. Most places, right.
22 A. Yes, most places.
23 Q. And you and your brother were up on a
24 hill --
25 A. They weren’t always correct. Yeah, they had
26 clocks there, but they weren’t always correct.
27 Q. Well, if you didn’t know what time it was,
28 how do you know they weren’t correct. 1296
1 A. Because the clocks were -- one clock was
2 saying five o’clock and another clock was saying
3 nine o’clock. That’s how I knew they were wrong.
4 Q. Star, you knew what time it was at
5 Neverland, didn’t you.
6 A. No.
7 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your
8 Honor.
9 THE COURT: Sustained.
10 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever send letters
11 or cards to Michael Jackson.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know when you did that.
14 A. When we first met Michael.
15 Q. And approximately when was that again.
16 A. When I was 10, 11.
17 Q. And do you know approximately when you first
18 met Michael.
19 A. While my brother was having cancer.
20 Q. Was that probably the fall of 2000.
21 A. I don’t know the date.
22 Q. Was it 2001.
23 A. I don’t know the date.
24 Q. Was it 2002.
25 A. I just know it was between when my brother
26 was having cancer.
27 Q. Did your mother help you write your letters
28 to Michael. 1297
1 A. Hmm, no.
2 Q. Did you write them yourself.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You wrote a letter to Michael, Star, where
5 you said -- you thanked him, “Because even when your
6 hearts get broken and shattered into tiny little
7 pieces, we always still love, need and care about
8 you with every tiny little piece of our hearts,”
9 right.
10 A. Are you reading that from a card.
11 Q. I’m asking you if you remember saying
12 anything like that.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Never said it.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
17 you a card --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- that you sent to Michael.
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Yes.
23 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, could I see the
24 card before counsel shows him.
25 MR. MESEREAU: Sure. My mistake.
26 MR. SNEDDON: That’s okay. My mistake; I
27 just didn’t....
28 MR. MESEREAU: May I have this marked as the 1298
1 exhibit next in order, Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 MR. SNEDDON: Excuse me, Your Honor. If
4 he’s going to refresh the individual’s recollection
5 first, and that --
6 MR. MESEREAU: Excuse me, Your Honor, I’m
7 doing it.
8 THE COURT: He’s changed his --
9 MR. SNEDDON: I object.
10 THE COURT: He’s changed his approach.
11 MR. MESEREAU: I’m doing it.
12 THE COURT: He was going to refresh. Now
13 he’s asking if the exhibit may be marked. He can
14 have the exhibit marked.
15 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.
16 THE CLERK: It’s 5001.
17 MR. MESEREAU: 5001.
18 MR. SNEDDON: No objection that it come in.
19 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor, that would be a
20 card and an envelope. Would you like them to be two
21 exhibits or can they be the same.
22 THE COURT: I think they can be the same.
23 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Thank you.
24 Q. Star, I’m going to show you a card and
25 envelope that have been marked as Exhibit 5001.
26 Okay.
27 A. I think I wrote this off another card.
28 Q. Okay. But you did write it, right. 1299
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Have you seen that before.
3 A. I haven’t seen this in a long time.
4 Q. But that’s your handwriting, isn’t it.
5 A. Yes, when I was really little. Yes.
6 Q. And how about the envelope. Have you seen
7 that envelope, the purple envelope. Have you seen
8 that before.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That’s the envelope the card came in.
11 A. I don’t remember if the envelope came with
12 this card.
13 Q. Okay. And you gave Michael Jackson your
14 phone number, right, at the bottom.
15 A. Looks like it.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Wait. I don’t remember that being my phone
18 number. But if it is, it was.
19 MR. MESEREAU: I would move this document
20 into evidence, Your Honor.
21 MR. SNEDDON: I already said no objection,
22 Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: It’s admitted.
24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You said to Michael
25 Jackson, “My super, super, best, best friend,”
26 right.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. You said, “I love you, I love you,” 1300
1 repeatedly, right.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you referred to Father’s Day, right.
4 A. I didn’t read the card.
5 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
6 you the envelope.
7 A. Sure.
8 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
9 THE COURT: Yes.
10 THE WITNESS: “Happy Father’s Day.”
11 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Yeah, you said “Happy
12 Father’s Day” on the envelope, right.
13 A. Wait. Can I see it one more time.
14 Q. Sure.
15 May I.
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 THE WITNESS: Sorry. Okay.
18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You sent the card on
19 Father’s Day, correct.
20 A. Sure. I don’t remember, but, okay.
21 Q. You told Mr. Jackson, “You always heal us in
22 a very special way,” right.
23 A. I wrote that off another card.
24 Q. What other card did you write that off of.
25 A. It was a card that already had it written on
26 there.
27 Q. Where did you get that card.
28 A. Probably from a supermarket or -- 1301
1 Q. Excuse me.
2 A. Probably from a supermarket.
3 Q. Okay. So you took a card from a
4 supermarket --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- and wrote the words.
7 A. It was a card lying around. My grandmother
8 got a lot of cards from her grandchildren.
9 Q. You said, “Michael, you are special to us,”
10 right.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. “We loyally and faithfully love you more,”
13 right.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. “We love you unconditionally, to infinity
16 and beyond forever,” right.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. And you said, “Thank you, Michael, for being
19 our family,” right.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. “Love, your Blow Hole, Star Arvizo,” right.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. 626-452-1693, right.
24 A. I don’t even remember having that phone
25 number, but --
26 Q. The card is signed “Davellin, Gavin, Star
27 and me,” right.
28 A. “Me”. Okay. 1302
1 Q. Well, there’s other people’s writings on
2 there also, correct.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you all used to write to Michael and
5 tell him about how he had healed your family, right.
6 A. What do you mean. We never -- we probably
7 wrote to him like --
8 Q. Pardon me.
9 A. I only wrote to him, like, three times.
10 Q. Okay. But you would write to him and tell
11 him how he had healed your family, true.
12 A. I don’t remember that.
13 Q. Your mother would ask you to do that, right.
14 A. No.
15 Q. And your family often referred to Michael as
16 a father figure, right.
17 A. Um, sure.
18 Q. You did that often, right.
19 A. Refer to him as a father figure.
20 Q. Yes. You always referred to Michael as
21 being part of your family, didn’t you.
22 A. Yes. Part of our family.
23 Q. Your mother used to do that, correct.
24 A. What do you mean.
25 Q. You don’t know what I mean.
26 A. No.
27 Q. Your mother used to refer to Michael Jackson
28 as being part of your family, didn’t she. 1303
1 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
2 object as to vague as to time.
3 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase it, Your Honor.
4 Q. From the time you first met Michael Jackson,
5 you used to refer to him as being part of your
6 family, didn’t you.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. From the time your mother first met Michael
9 Jackson, she used to refer to him as being part of
10 your family, right.
11 A. I can’t speak for my mom.
12 Q. You never heard her say that.
13 A. Not really.
14 Q. From the time your sister first met Michael
15 Jackson, she used to refer to him as being part of
16 the family, right.
17 A. I don’t know.
18 Q. Did you ever hear her say that.
19 A. No.
20 Q. But you started doing it yourself, correct.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you say you did it by copying a card
23 from a supermarket.
24 A. Yes, I just plugged his name in.
25 Q. Okay. So this handwriting of yours all
26 comes from a supermarket card; is that correct.
27 A. No, not from a supermarket card. I rewrote
28 the supermarket card. 1304
1 Q. Okay. So when you said to Michael, “Thank
2 you, Michael, because even when our hearts are and
3 get broken and shattered into tiny little pieces, we
4 always still love, need and care about you with
5 every tiny little piece of our hearts, because you
6 always heal us in a very special way,” did you get
7 that from a supermarket card.
8 A. I plugged some words in, I plugged his name
9 in, and that’s how I got that paragraph.
10 Q. And you recall sending it to him.
11 A. What.
12 Q. Do you recall sending it to him.
13 A. Not really.
14 Q. Do you recall giving it to him.
15 A. Not really.
16 Q. Yesterday you told the jury that when you
17 were interviewed on that rebuttal tape and your
18 family said things about Michael healing Gavin and
19 being a father, that that was something scripted,
20 correct.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. But nobody scripted the words in this card,
23 did they.
24 A. No. But that was before all that happened.
25 Q. Before what happened, Star.
26 A. Before the Miami trip, and before we finally
27 left.
28 Q. So what you’re saying is before the Miami 1305
1 trip, you always, you and your family always
2 referred to Michael as “Daddy” and as someone who
3 would heal.
4 A. We never had a constant connection with
5 Michael during that time.
6 Q. Then why would you write a card like this to
7 him.
8 A. Probably when we came back from Neverland.
9 I don’t know. I was really little when I wrote that
10 card.
11 Q. Your mother asked you to write it, didn’t
12 she.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Your mother never asked you to write to
15 Michael.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Your mother -- how old were you when you
18 wrote the card; do you think.
19 A. Probably -- I don’t know. I don’t know.
20 Q. Well, how old do you think you were. Ten.
21 Nine.
22 A. I can’t guess. I don’t know.
23 Q. Well, how old are you now.
24 A. 14.
25 Q. We’re talking about a couple of years ago,
26 right.
27 A. I don’t know. I don’t want to say the wrong
28 age. 1306
1 Q. Pardon me.
2 A. I don’t want to say the wrong age.
3 Q. No, just do your best. Just estimate.
4 We’re talking about a couple of years ago, correct.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Huh.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Well, how long ago do you think you were
9 visiting Neverland.
10 A. Back in 2000 and 2001.
11 Q. All right. How old do you think you were in
12 2000 and 2001.
13 A. Ten.
14 Q. Are you saying that when you were ten years
15 old nobody told you what words to write on this
16 card.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You wrote it all yourself when you were ten.
19 A. No, the card helped me.
20 Q. Well, what about the words, “When we get
21 broken and shattered into tiny little pieces we
22 always still love, need and care about you with
23 every tiny little piece of our hearts, because you
24 always heal us in a very special way”. Did you make
25 those words up at the age of 10.
26 A. No, the card did.
27 Q. The card did.
28 A. Yes. The card already had them written on 1307
1 there.
2 Q. Oh, I see, so you took a card and copied it.
3 A. Yes, I told you.
4 Q. And your mother wasn’t involved in that.
5 A. No.
6 Q. And your father wasn’t involved in that.
7 A. No.
8 Q. And Gavin wasn’t involved in that.
9 A. No.
10 Q. And Davellin wasn’t involved in that, right.
11 A. No.
12 Q. You did it all yourself, right.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Then how come you got other family members
15 writing on the same card.
16 A. Well, they probably wrote on the card after
17 I was done with it.
18 Q. Did you see them do that.
19 A. No, I just wrote on it, and I left it there.
20 Q. Are you saying they probably did that, or
21 you know they did that.
22 A. They probably did that.
23 Q. Okay. But what you’re telling the jury -
24 and correct me if I’m wrong - is long before the
25 rebuttal video, your family was referring to Michael
26 as “Daddy,” and as someone who had healed the
27 family, true.
28 MR. SNEDDON: Object, Your Honor, as 1308
1 compound.
2 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase it, Your Honor.
3 I think it is compound.
4 THE COURT: All right.
5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Long before the rebuttal
6 film, your family was referring to Michael as a
7 father figure, right.
8 A. It was long before the Miami trip, too.
9 Q. You say long before it.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Well, in the year --
12 A. And --
13 Q. Pardon me.
14 A. And my brother was referring to him as a
15 father figure.
16 Q. Okay. Long before the Miami trip, correct.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And long before the Miami trip, your mother
19 was referring to him as a father figure, right.
20 A. My brother.
21 Q. Is that true.
22 A. Yes, my brother needed a father at that
23 time. He was barely coming out of his terminal
24 illness.
25 Q. And long before the Miami trip, you were
26 referring to Michael Jackson as a father figure,
27 right.
28 A. I don’t remember doing it, but okay. 1309
1 Q. Well, did you do that.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Pardon me.
4 A. No.
5 Q. You didn’t do it.
6 A. No.
7 Q. What about the card.
8 A. So. That’s what -- that’s what the card had
9 on it, so I -- I rewrit it on a piece of paper
10 and -- and I plugged in his name.
11 Q. Now, “Blow Hole” was a nickname for a fish,
12 right.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Your nickname was based on a fish, right.
15 A. I made it up. I was going to give it to
16 Michael. We had a rock/paper/scissors, I lost, so I
17 got stuck with that name.
18 Q. Okay. Do you remember meeting with
19 Psychologist Stanley Katz to talk about what you
20 claim Michael Jackson did to your mother. Do you
21 remember that.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You told Stanley Katz that Michael Jackson
24 gave you red wine and vodka, correct.
25 A. I don’t remember saying that.
26 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
27 you his testimony.
28 A. Whose testimony. 1310
1 Q. Stanley Katz.
2 A. I never said that to him, so --
3 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just
4 show you what he says you told him.
5 A. That’s what he said.
6 Q. Okay. Would it refresh your recollection if
7 I just show you what he said.
8 A. Okay, but it’s not going to help.
9 Q. It’s not going to help you.
10 A. Yeah, I remember saying red and white wine,
11 and there’s one time we got vodka, yes.
12 Q. You told Stanley Katz that you were given
13 vodka.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. But yesterday you told the jury it was just
16 wine, right.
17 A. I forgot.
18 Q. You might have forgot yesterday.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. You told Stanley Katz that the first
21 time you observed your brother in bed with Michael
22 Jackson, that Michael Jackson had put his hand on
23 your brother’s crotch, right.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You then changed that to say he had put his
26 hand inside your brother’s pants, right.
27 A. He might have said it, but I know what I
28 said. 1311
1 Q. Excuse me. I’m sorry.
2 A. Repeat the question.
3 Q. Originally, you told Stanley Katz that
4 Michael Jackson had put his hand near your brother’s
5 crotch, right.
6 A. Near.
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. Is that right.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Well, you said he put his hand on his
12 crotch, correct.
13 A. In his underwears.
14 Q. And as time went on, after interview and
15 after interview, you changed that to masturbation,
16 true.
17 A. Masturbating my brother.
18 Q. Let me rephrase it.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. You told Stanley Katz that the first time
21 you saw Michael Jackson in bed with your brother,
22 the time you went up the stairs, that Michael
23 Jackson had put his hand on your brother’s crotch,
24 right.
25 A. When they were going up the stairs.
26 Q. Yes.
27 A. While they were going up the stairs.
28 Q. While you’re going up the stairs. 1312
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Let me rephrase it. Don’t answer it if
3 you’re confused. Okay.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. You told the jury yesterday you went up the
6 stairs one night, right.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You got into the room yourself, right.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You said the bell went off, right.
11 A. When I first walked in through the hallway,
12 yes.
13 Q. And even though the bell went off, you kept
14 going up the stairs, right.
15 A. The bell went off while I was -- made my way
16 through the hallway.
17 Q. The bell went off when you opened the door,
18 didn’t it.
19 A. No, it stopped.
20 Q. Pardon me.
21 A. It stopped.
22 Q. It just stopped.
23 A. Yeah. It goes for a couple more minutes and
24 then it stops.
25 Q. And then what happens.
26 A. That’s it.
27 Q. It never goes on again.
28 A. No. 1313
1 Q. It goes off so Michael can hear it, correct.
2 A. If the door’s closed, you can’t hear
3 nothing.
4 Q. Can’t hear anything upstairs.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Is that what you’re saying.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. The bell goes off. You say Michael
9 doesn’t hear it, right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you say that you open his door to the
12 stairway, right, and you say you go upstairs, right.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. The first one you say you describe that to
15 was Stanley Katz, correct.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You told Stanley Katz that Michael Jackson
18 had his left hand on Gavin’s crotch, right.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Never told him that Michael Jackson was
21 masturbating Gavin.
22 A. He wasn’t masturbating. He was just
23 feeling.
24 Q. He was just feeling him.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Do you remember yesterday you told the jury
27 he was masturbating him.
28 A. No, I said Michael was feeling my brother 1314
1 while he was masturbating.
2 Q. Okay. Did you ever tell the jury yesterday
3 that Michael was masturbating your brother.
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you ever tell that to anybody.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. Do you remember when you described
8 for Stanley Katz the second time you claim Michael
9 Jackson was observed by you in bed with your
10 brother. Do you remember that.
11 A. What.
12 Q. Do you remember telling Stanley Katz there
13 was a second time that you went up the stairs and
14 observed Michael Jackson touching your brother.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you tell Stanley Katz that Michael
17 Jackson had his hand on your brother’s crotch.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That’s really not what you told him at all,
20 is it.
21 A. What are you talking about.
22 Q. Well, you told Stanley Katz that Michael
23 Jackson was rubbing his penis against Gavin’s
24 buttocks, didn’t you.
25 A. When. The second time.
26 Q. Yes. Did you tell Stanley Katz that.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show 1315
1 you his grand jury testimony.
2 A. I know what I said, though.
3 Q. Are you denying telling Psychologist Stanley
4 Katz --
5 A. The second time.
6 Q. -- that you told him the second time you
7 observed Michael Jackson touching your brother in
8 bed, that Michael Jackson was rubbing his penis
9 against your brother’s buttocks.
10 A. No.
11 Q. You never told that to Stanley Katz.
12 A. No.
13 Q. If I showed you his testimony, would that
14 jog your memory.
15 A. No. I know what I said, though.
16 Q. Okay. You tried to tell Stanley Katz that
17 you smelled marijuana, didn’t you.
18 A. I don’t know how marijuana smells.
19 Q. Didn’t you tell Stanley Katz you smelled
20 marijuana.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
23 you that page of his testimony.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Okay. Now, are you saying that you never
26 told Michael Jackson you wanted to be an actor.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Never told him that at all, right. 1316
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, did your mother
3 ever tell Michael Jackson you wanted to be an actor.
4 A. I can’t speak for her.
5 Q. Did you ever hear her say that.
6 A. No.
7 Q. You went to dancing classes, right.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And what school did you go to.
10 A. I went to Mr. and Mrs. Kennedy’s Dance
11 Studio. I went to -- where else did I go. I went
12 to ballet classes, rhythm/tap, a little bit of jazz.
13 What else. That’s it.
14 Q. And you went to comedy class, right.
15 A. Sure. Yes.
16 Q. When did you go to comedy class.
17 A. In the summer. In the summer.
18 Q. What summer was that.
19 A. In between third and fourth.
20 Q. Were you trying to learn to be a comedian.
21 A. No, I just wanted to do it for fun.
22 Q. Okay. Ever tell anyone you wanted to be a
23 comedian.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Okay. Now, you told the Santa Barbara
26 Sheriffs that Frank threatened you and your family,
27 right.
28 A. He just threatened me. 1317
1 Q. He just threatened you alone.
2 A. He probably threatened my family.
3 Q. Did he threaten you alone.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you know when that was.
6 A. I don’t know the date.
7 Q. Was it when you first got to Neverland.
8 A. I don’t really remember.
9 Q. Was it after the Miami trip.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you know how soon after the Miami trip.
12 A. I think it was right before the rebuttal.
13 Q. Right before the rebuttal.
14 A. I was trying to go talk to my mom.
15 Q. So this would be before, if I represent to
16 you the rebuttal was June 20th, right.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Excuse me, February 20th, pardon me.
19 February 20th was the rebuttal tape, right.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. And you’re saying that Frank threatened you
22 right before the rebuttal tape.
23 A. While I was trying to walk to my mom’s guest
24 unit.
25 Q. Okay. But it was -- as far as you know,
26 it’s before the rebuttal tape, right.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Okay. And in one of your sheriffs’ 1318
1 interviews, you were asked why Frank made that
2 threat, right.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you told the sheriffs, “Because he
5 already knew that what Michael did to us, and if we
6 told them the truth, he would have went to jail,”
7 right.
8 A. Can I read that.
9 Q. Yes.
10 May I approach, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
13 look at that page.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you remember saying that to the sheriffs.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you told them, essentially, that Frank
18 said that to you, threatened you, because he knew
19 that if you told anybody what Michael had done,
20 Michael would go to jail, right.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That was right before the rebuttal tape,
23 right.
24 A. I think so, yes.
25 Q. Have you discussed the charges in this case
26 with the sheriffs.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Have they told you they’re claiming that 1319
1 molestation went on starting the 20th of June.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. February, I mean. Have they told you that.
4 A. Okay. No, they haven’t told me.
5 Q. Did you ever give them dates.
6 A. No. I knew more back then than I do now.
7 Q. You knew more back then than you do now.
8 A. Yes, it was fresh in my memory back then.
9 Q. Did someone tell you to say that.
10 A. No, I’m saying it right now, because I have
11 school, I have tests to study for, and most of that
12 stuff leave my memory, most of the details.
13 Q. That’s because you’re studying for tests in
14 school.
15 A. Yes. Yes.
16 Q. And you think if you weren’t studying for
17 tests in school, you’d know a lot more today.
18 A. It’s not just tests. It’s just learning.
19 Q. So the learning you’ve done in school has
20 interfered with your memory about this case.
21 A. No, I know -- I know -- I know everything
22 happened. I just don’t know it in detail like I did
23 in those testimonies.
24 Q. Okay. Okay. You had a lot of details
25 yesterday, didn’t you.
26 A. Well, yeah. I do remember details. But not
27 all the details.
28 Q. Okay. But you said you’ve reviewed a 1320
Subject: March 8, 2005 
Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:40 am
