1 the day, the first day that we got there.
2 Q. But correct me if I’m wrong, yesterday you
3 said that Mr. Jackson had a room in his suite,
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. There were other rooms in the suite, right.
7 A. No, there’s not other rooms in the suite.
8 There’s just one in the suite. And then there was a
9 connecting room that was -- that was another hotel
10 room, but they had the doors open, so it connected
12 Q. With another whole tower.
13 A. There was another hotel room connected to
14 Mr. Jackson’s suite, so they had that door open.
15 Q. And you indicated that, for most of the day,
16 people were going in and out, right.
17 A. Yeah, Mr. Dieter and Ronald would.
18 Q. And Marie Nicole and Aldo were there too.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And Mr. Jackson’s children were there too.
21 A. They left after a while. They weren’t there
22 the whole time.
23 Q. But they were there a lot of the time,
24 weren’t they.
25 A. A good amount.
26 Q. And the nannies were with them, right.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Now, you testified yesterday and today, that 897
1 you saw behavioral changes in Gavin at some point,
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Have you ever discussed those behavioral
5 changes with Mr. Sneddon.
6 A. He just asked me if there was anything
7 different about Gavin.
8 Q. And when was that.
9 A. A while ago.
10 Q. Did you ever discuss what you were going to
11 say in court today about those behavioral changes.
12 A. No.
13 Q. Let me ask you this: Were you ever aware
14 that Gavin had a lot of disciplinary problems in
16 A. I know he would talk a lot, yeah.
17 Q. Were you ever aware that teachers were upset
18 because he would get up in class and disrupt the
19 courtroom -- the classroom.
20 A. He was very talkative, yes.
21 Q. Well, he was described as disruptive, wasn’t
23 A. Yeah, he would get very talkative. He would
24 get very talkative, that’s what his problem was.
25 Q. He was described by his teachers as getting
26 up in the middle of class and disrupting the class,
28 A. Well, I don’t know -- 898
1 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
2 object as asked and answered. Lack of foundation,
3 if she has any personal knowledge of this.
4 THE COURT: Sustained on foundation.
5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you have any knowledge
6 yourself of Gavin having disciplinary problems in
7 school before he ever met Mr. Jackson.
8 A. I knew he was very talkative. That’s all I
9 know of. I was very young.
10 Q. On the rebuttal tape, Gavin mentions gang
11 signs; do you remember that.
12 A. I don’t know.
13 Q. Well, you saw the rebuttal tape, right.
14 A. Yeah, I heard of it. I heard that. But I
15 don’t think it was Gavin that said it. My mom said
16 it. She was just playing around with Gavin.
17 Q. Your mother was playing along with Gavin
18 when your mother mentioned gang signs.
19 A. No, because Gavin was messing with his
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. And I think that’s what it was. And I think
23 my mom was just playing with him, saying, “Stop
24 throwing those gang signs.”
25 Q. To your knowledge, has Gavin ever been
26 associated with anybody in a gang.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Never at all, right. 899
1 A. Never.
2 Q. Okay. And you’ve never seen Gavin make a
3 gang sign, right.
4 A. No, he’s a good boy.
5 Q. Okay. How did you learn Gavin was having
6 problems with his conduct at school.
7 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object as lack of
9 MR. MESEREAU: I think she said she knew,
10 Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Sustain the objection.
12 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
13 Q. Did you ever discuss with your mother the
14 fact that Gavin was having any problems at school.
15 A. I don’t remember.
16 Q. Okay. So you don’t remember ever having a
17 discussion like that.
18 A. All I know is that I would tell Gavin, you
19 know, “Just be quiet and listen to what the teachers
20 tell you.” That’s all I know. All I know is Gavin
21 talks a lot.
22 Q. To your knowledge, was he ever asked to
23 leave school.
24 A. I don’t know.
25 Q. You don’t know.
26 A. I don’t know. I was young. I wasn’t really
27 paying attention to his school.
28 Q. Okay. So as you sit here today, you know 900
1 nothing about Gavin ever being asked to leave
2 school, right.
3 A. No, I don’t know that.
4 Q. Never heard anything about that.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay. Now, in Miami, you said you got a
7 manicure and a pedicure.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And I think you said Chris Tucker, Gavin and
10 Star got massages, right.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And that was before you got on the plane to
13 go back, right.
14 A. Yeah, that was right before we left.
15 Q. Do you know who paid for those pedicures,
16 manicures and massages.
17 A. Yes, Mr. Jackson did. They were charged to
18 the room.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. Or -- Mr. Tucker’s was charged to his room.
21 I don’t know, really. But I think Mr. Jackson paid
22 for my pedicure, but I don’t know about the
24 Q. How did you know who charged what to their
26 A. Because they had given us, like, a little
27 thing to take and say that it was fine to charge it
28 to the room. 901
1 Q. Okay. Now, I’d like to just get straight in
2 my mind, if I can, the schools you mentioned
3 yesterday that you went to.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You mentioned Hollywood High, right.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, when did you go to Hollywood High.
8 A. For my freshman and half of my sophomore
10 Q. So what years would that be.
11 A. 2000, 2001.
12 Q. And when did you go to Mountain View.
13 A. Mountain View was the beginning of -- it
14 was -- part of my junior year, like the ending part,
15 and then my senior year was there.
16 Q. Did you mention a third school.
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Which one was that.
19 A. That was Roosevelt.
20 Q. When did you go to Roosevelt.
21 A. I went to Roosevelt in between my sophomore
22 year and my junior year.
23 Q. For how long.
24 A. Part of my sophomore, and part of my junior.
25 Q. Okay. Now, did you move to these schools
26 because you had moved your home.
27 A. No, because -- I left Hollywood High School
28 because my father didn’t leave me alone. 902
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. So I had to move.
3 Q. Okay. And you went from Hollywood.
4 A. To Roosevelt.
5 Q. To Roosevelt. And where in Los Angeles was
7 A. Like five minutes away from the Soto
8 apartment. It was that high school for that
10 Q. Okay. And I gather your father didn’t come
11 to that school to see you, right.
12 A. Not that I remember, no.
13 Q. But you were concerned that he was coming to
14 Hollywood High to see you.
15 A. No, he was coming to Hollywood High. That’s
16 why I left.
17 Q. Okay. Okay.
18 When you were at Hollywood High, were you
19 living at Soto.
20 A. Yes, I was.
21 Q. When you were at Mountain View, were you
22 living at Soto.
23 A. No, I wasn’t. I was living with my
25 Q. Okay. Yesterday you put little notations on
26 a large diagram of the interior of the plane --
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. -- remember. 903
1 Had you gone over that diagram before you
3 A. I have said where I saw everybody sit, and I
4 had seen the diagram before.
5 Q. And who had showed it to you.
6 A. Mr. Sneddon was sitting there. I know there
7 was somebody else. But --
8 Q. And do you know approximately when that was.
9 A. I don’t remember when it was.
10 Q. Did someone tell you, “This is a diagram of
11 the interior of that plane”.
12 A. “This is a diagram of the description that
13 you’ve given us of the plane,” yes.
14 Q. Who told you that.
15 A. Mr. Sneddon, I think. I don’t remember.
16 Q. And you don’t know if that diagram is
17 completely accurate, do you.
18 A. That’s from what I saw, so --
19 Q. Who put the diagram together.
20 A. I don’t know.
21 Q. Okay. You hadn’t been on that plane since
22 when, January of 2003, February of 2003.
23 A. It was for Miami, so I don’t know.
24 Q. All right. So correct me if I’m wrong,
25 Mr. Sneddon said to you, “Here’s a diagram of the
26 interior of the plane,” right.
27 A. “Of what you described.”
28 Q. Okay. And did he have you, in front of him, 904
1 start marking off where people sat.
2 A. No.
3 Q. He didn’t.
4 A. No.
5 Q. So the first time you did it was yesterday.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. And when Mr. Sneddon put it in front
8 of you, he never said, “Tell me where people were
10 A. From what I remember, “Where do you think
11 they were sitting.”
12 Q. Okay. All right. Was this during that
13 short meeting you had a couple days ago.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And Mr. Sneddon and you agree that was only
16 a 15-minute meeting.
17 A. Yeah. There was two meetings and they were
18 both pretty short.
19 Q. With Mr. Sneddon.
20 A. Well, Mr. Sneddon, and then Mr. Robel would
21 come in. It was an open area. It was right in
22 front of the kitchen.
23 Q. Okay. Now, you indicated yesterday that at
24 some point on the plane, Mr. Jackson gave Gavin his
25 watch, right.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And you said at some point on that plane
28 trip, Mr. Jackson gave Gavin his jacket. 905
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. Now, was this after Mr. Jackson
3 had given the family an automobile.
4 A. Yes. The automobile was given during
5 Gavin’s cancer. That was -- the watch and the
6 jacket were on the plane.
7 Q. Okay. And you indicated you saw some
8 whispering between Mr. Jackson and Gavin, but you
9 didn’t hear what it was.
10 A. No, they were whispering and they were
11 passing the Diet Coke can back and forth.
12 Q. And you have no idea if Gavin asked Mr.
13 Jackson for a watch, because you couldn’t hear,
15 A. All I know is that Mr. Jackson gave it to
17 Q. Okay. And at some point, I believe you said
18 that it was Ronald who wanted the watch from you,
19 your family.
20 A. No, Dieter was the one that wanted it back.
21 Q. Was that at Neverland.
22 A. Yes, it was.
23 Q. So Dieter appeared upset that Mr. Jackson
24 had given Gavin a watch, right.
25 A. Yeah.
26 Q. All right. Did Dieter ever try to get the
27 car back.
28 A. I didn’t meet Dieter at that time. 906
1 Q. When did you first meet Dieter.
2 A. At Miami.
3 Q. All right. And was this in the suite.
4 A. Yes, it was.
5 Q. When did you first see Dieter try and get
6 that watch back.
7 A. We were all together in one of the guest
8 rooms. And he was asking Gavin for the watch back.
9 Q. And Mr. Jackson wasn’t there, right.
10 A. No.
11 Q. You did say yesterday, in response to the
12 prosecutor’s question about the plane, that people
13 would switch their seats around, remember.
14 A. Yeah, that would be Star, Aldo and Marie
15 Nicole that would switch their seats around.
16 Q. Did you ever see -- excuse me. I’m sorry.
17 Let me rephrase that. Strike that.
18 Did you ever see Aldo and Marie Nicole
19 switch their seats around.
20 A. Yeah, they would switch back with Star.
21 They would go back and forth.
22 Q. Do you know where the doctor sat on the
24 A. He was in one of those four chairs that were
25 behind me. I don’t remember where.
26 Q. Yesterday did you tell the prosecutor where
27 the doctor was seated.
28 A. No, I just wrote that he was in one of those 907
1 four seats.
2 Q. Okay. And he was with the two nannies,
4 A. Yes. And my mom was sitting -- all those
5 four -- in those four seats were my mom, the doctor,
6 and the two nannies. I don’t know how they were
7 seated or anything.
8 Q. Okay. And is it your recollection that
9 Mr. Jackson was facing the rear of the plane.
10 A. He was facing the front of the plane.
11 Q. Okay. And where were you facing.
12 A. I was facing the back of the plane, right in
13 front of Gavin.
14 Q. Okay. And who was next to you.
15 A. Paris was.
16 Q. All right. And the doctor was at the back
17 of the plane facing the front, to your knowledge.
18 A. I don’t know where he was seated. All I
19 know is he was in those four chairs behind me.
20 Q. Okay. Gavin’s illness lasted approximately
21 a year, right.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And he had a number of surgeries, right.
24 A. He had one major surgery.
25 Q. Okay. What was that for, if you know.
26 Didn’t they remove the spleen.
27 A. They took out his spleen. They took out a
28 16-pound tumor. They took out lymph nodes. They 908
1 took out the -- that’s all I remember. They took
2 out his kidney, because it was totally eaten by the
3 cancer. And that’s all I remember.
4 Q. And when you said on the rebuttal tape that
5 you thought Mr. Jackson had helped him recover, were
6 you telling the truth.
7 A. I had said that. I don’t remember saying
9 Q. Okay. Do you ever remember your mother
10 saying Mr. Jackson had helped your brother recover
11 from cancer.
12 A. What do you mean.
13 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
14 object as to vagueness, as to when in point in time.
15 THE COURT: Point in time.
16 MR. MESEREAU: Sure, Your Honor. I’ll
18 Q. Do you remember, on the rebuttal tape, your
19 mother saying that Mr. Jackson helped your brother
20 Gavin recover from cancer.
21 A. I know she said it on the rebuttal tape.
22 Q. Did you ever hear her say it any other time.
23 A. No, she owed all credit to God.
24 Q. So other than the rebuttal tape, you never
25 heard your mother ever say Mr. Jackson helped Gavin
26 recover from cancer.
27 A. Not that I remember.
28 Q. What about when Brad Miller was at Jay 909
1 Jackson’s apartment.
2 A. I don’t -- if she did, I don’t remember. I
3 was young. It was too long ago.
4 Q. Okay. Now, when you arrived from Miami, you
5 were taken to Neverland Ranch, right.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And was that a limousine.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know who drove that.
10 A. I don’t remember.
11 Q. Okay. And when you got there, you said that
12 Dieter or Ronald were there, right.
13 A. No, they weren’t.
14 Q. They weren’t there.
15 A. They didn’t get there until the next day, I
17 Q. Okay. And you’ve never flown with them,
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. When you left Neverland with Jesus
21 Salas, you were in a Rolls Royce, right.
22 A. Yes, we were.
23 Q. And your mother asked Jesus to take the
24 family back home, right.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And Jesus put you all in a Rolls Royce and
27 drove you to Los Angeles, right.
28 A. Yes, he drove us. I don’t remember -- I 910
1 think he took us to my grandmother’s house.
2 Q. Okay. And at some other point, the family
3 all went back to Neverland, right.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And approximately when was that.
6 A. Timewise, I don’t know. It was so long ago.
7 Q. Okay. After you got back from Miami, if you
8 know, how many times did you go back and forth to
10 A. Twice, I think. I think it was twice.
11 Q. Twice.
12 A. Or three times. I don’t remember.
13 Q. One time you went back with Aja, correct.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And Aja drove you to Neverland, right.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And did you ask her to drive you, or did she
18 just volunteer to, if you know.
19 A. Because we were going to be taken back
20 anyways, because we asked her to take us instead.
21 Q. Okay. When Aja drove you back to Neverland,
22 there was no security person in your car, true.
23 A. No.
24 Q. You mentioned to the jury at one point that
25 you were scared, right.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Okay. And when did you get scared, if you
28 remember. 911
1 A. Like --
2 Q. I’m talking about when you were at
4 A. Like after they started telling us about the
5 death threats and stuff.
6 Q. After what.
7 A. After they started telling us about the
8 death threats and how Dieter started getting more
10 Q. Dieter was getting more aggressive.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. This is right after the Miami trip, right.
13 A. No. This is -- this is closer to the
14 rebuttal film.
15 Q. Okay. Okay. So you first started to get
16 scared around the time of the rebuttal film, right.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, you mentioned that Aja drove you back
19 to Neverland, right.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was your mother in the car.
22 A. No, she wasn’t.
23 Q. Where was she.
24 A. She was at Jay Jackson’s apartment.
25 Q. Okay. When you were at Jay Jackson’s
26 apartment to talk to the three social workers, your
27 mother never complained that you were being falsely
28 imprisoned, did she. 912
1 A. About what.
2 Q. About anything.
3 A. About falsely imprisoned with who.
4 Q. With Frank, with Vinnie, with Dieter, with
5 Konitzer, with Schaffel. Anybody.
6 A. No, we were kind of scared, because the
7 bodyguard was downstairs.
8 Q. Okay. But you never told any of the three
9 women from the Department of Children & Family
10 Services, “We need help,” right.
11 A. Not that I remember, no.
12 Q. And your mother certainly never did that,
14 A. Not that I remember, no.
15 Q. And you don’t recall your mother ever
16 telling Aja, “Call the police; we’re having
17 problems,” right.
18 A. I remember there would be occasions that she
19 would call Aja. I don’t know what they talked
20 about. And I did talk to Aja once when they were at
21 Neverland Ranch.
22 Q. And you never heard your mother ever call
23 the police, right.
24 A. I heard about an occasion, yes, that she
25 tried to.
26 Q. Okay. When was this.
27 A. I don’t know when it was. But it was when
28 they were at the ranch. 913
1 Q. Okay. How about when you were at Jay
2 Jackson’s house, an active member of the United
3 States Army who your mother was having a
4 relationship with. Do you recall your mother ever
5 saying anything like, “Major Jackson, call the
6 police”. Do you ever recall that.
7 A. She had called, because she dialed up -- if
8 you press 9-1-1 at the Neverland Ranch, it goes to
9 their security.
10 Q. Right.
11 A. So she had to call Jay and ask him to call.
12 Q. How about when she was at Jay Jackson’s
14 A. Not that I remember, no.
15 Q. All right. You indicated that an
16 investigator named Bradley Miller took a recorded
17 statement from your whole family.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Right.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And that was at Jay Jackson’s apartment,
23 A. Yes, it was.
24 Q. And Jay Jackson was actually in and out,
25 wasn’t he.
26 A. No, he was sitting right there.
27 Q. Okay. So you’re at Jay Jackson’s home, with
28 Jay Jackson sitting there, and an investigator is 914
1 taking a statement. And nobody complains about
2 Dieter, Konitzer, Frank, Vinnie, Schaffel, or
3 anybody, right.
4 A. I don’t think it was at that point. He just
5 asked us to speak of things of my father.
6 Q. Okay. But I’m asking if your mother at that
7 point ever called the police or did anything that
8 suggested that Ronald, Dieter, Frank, Vinnie,
9 anybody was causing problems.
10 A. I guess -- I don’t know. You have to ask
11 her what she thought.
12 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, when you were being
13 interviewed by Brad Miller, he asked you about
14 David, right.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you talked about things like child
17 endangerment and terrorist threats, right.
18 A. I don’t remember what I said. All I know is
19 I talked about David.
20 Q. Okay. You talked about abusive behavior by
21 him, right.
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Okay. Do you remember telling Brad Miller
24 that Michael is a father to all of you.
25 A. I don’t remember what I said on the tape.
26 It was very long ago. All I remember is the key
27 point was on David.
28 Q. Okay. Do you remember telling Brad Miller 915
1 Michael has given your family safety, love, and
2 everything you’ve ever wanted.
3 A. I don’t remember what I said. All I
4 remember is the key point was about David.
5 Q. Okay. Would it refresh your recollection if
6 I just showed you a transcript of what you said.
7 A. No, it wouldn’t. I would have to hear my
8 own voice.
9 Q. You don’t want to see this.
10 A. No, it’s okay.
11 Q. Okay. Okay. Did your mother ever tell you
12 that, “We’re being forced to make positive
13 statements about Michael Jackson in the interview
14 with Brad Miller”.
15 MR. SNEDDON: Excuse me, Your Honor. I’m
16 going to object as to what point in time. Vague;
17 lack of foundation.
18 THE COURT: Sustained; time.
19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: We’re talking about
20 Sunday, February 16th, 2003. Okay. And that’s the
21 approximate time you were at Jay Jackson’s apartment
22 being interviewed by Brad Miller, right.
23 A. You’re asking me what.
24 Q. Well, I’m asking you if that sounds like the
25 approximate time you were interviewed by Brad
27 A. I don’t know the date. All I know is that
28 he came to Jay Jackson’s house. 916
1 Q. Does February of 2003 sound around the time.
2 A. I don’t know.
3 Q. Was it after your trip to Miami.
4 A. Yes, it was.
5 Q. Okay. Was it before the rebuttal video.
6 A. I don’t remember.
7 Q. Do you think it was around the time of the
8 rebuttal video.
9 A. I don’t think so.
10 Q. All right. But Jay Jackson sat at the
12 A. We were seated in the living room.
13 Q. And Jay Jackson was sitting there during the
14 interview, right.
15 A. Yes, he was.
16 Q. Was he introduced to Brad Miller as a member
17 of the United States Army; do you know.
18 A. All I remember -- it’s too long ago. All I
19 remember is us sitting on the blue couch. And
20 Bradley Miller had the tape-recorder on the table.
21 And he was asking us questions. And the main
22 subject was David.
23 Q. And Jay was just sitting there and
24 listening, right.
25 A. Yes, Bradley Miller said he didn’t need him
26 to talk.
27 Q. Okay. So he just sat there and listened,
28 right. 917
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you complained about stories that were
3 being told about your brother, right.
4 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
5 object again as lack of foundation and vagueness as
6 to what point in time.
7 MR. MESEREAU: All my questions, unless I
8 tell you otherwise --
9 MR. SNEDDON: Well, that’s not fair to the
11 MR. MESEREAU: I’m going to withdraw the
12 question and rephrase it, if you want to do that.
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
15 Q. I’m going to ask you a number of questions
16 about the Brad Miller interview. All right.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. I’m going to ask you questions about what
19 you said. All right.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. And I’m going to ask you questions about who
22 was there.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. And I’ve already asked you questions about
25 where it was. It was at Jay Jackson’s apartment,
27 A. Yes, it was.
28 Q. Okay. Who was there, besides Jay Jackson 918
1 and you.
2 A. My mom and my two younger brothers.
3 Q. And Brad Miller, of course was there, right.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And have you discussed that interview with
6 anyone with law enforcement.
7 A. We told them that we took the interview,
9 Q. Have you discussed that interview with your
10 mother at all.
11 A. No.
12 Q. Never have.
13 A. No.
14 Q. So ever since you had that interview, you’ve
15 never talked to your mom about it, right.
16 A. Not really, no. It was just strange because
17 he would stop and redo it and say, “That’s not
18 necessary to talk about.” He would rewind it. Stop
19 it. I mean, we talked about how strange that was.
20 Q. And did Jay Jackson ever say a word.
21 A. No, he never did.
22 Q. Did your mom ever complain about that.
23 A. I don’t know. I don’t remember.
24 Q. Okay. All right. Was it your understanding
25 that the purpose of the interview was to get your
26 feelings about Michael Jackson on tape.
27 A. I thought the purpose was about David.
28 Q. Was about David. 919
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. But you and your mother and your brothers
3 kept referring to Michael Jackson as the father,
5 A. I don’t remember what I said. All I
6 remember is that the main focus was David.
7 Q. Okay. Now, when the rebuttal video was done
8 that we saw in court today --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- was your mother still involved with Jay
11 Jackson, as far as you know.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Were they engaged at that point; do
14 you know.
15 A. No. I don’t think so. They were still
17 Q. At that point in time, was Andrew Lassak, of
18 the LAPD, a friend of the family.
19 A. I don’t think we talked to him at that
20 point. I don’t remember.
21 Q. Okay.
22 THE BAILIFF: Mr. Mesereau, I’m going to
23 turn the air conditioner on. So will you speak up.
24 MR. MESEREAU: Oh. Sure.
25 Q. Did you think that Brad Miller didn’t want
26 certain statements about David on the tape.
27 A. He didn’t want certain statements about -- I
28 don’t remember. All I know is he would rewind it, 920
1 and say, “That’s not necessary, we don’t need to
2 talk about that.” And he would rewind it, tape over
3 it, stop it, and then, “We’re going to talk about
4 this now,” and that’s what I remember. And then he
5 would stop and rewind it a lot.
6 Q. Did he ever tell you, if you remember, that
7 he worked for Mark Geragos.
8 A. No, I thought he was just from Mr. Jackson.
9 Q. Okay. At the beginning of that interview,
10 he says he works for Mr. Geragos, right.
11 A. I don’t remember. All I remember is that he
12 was from Mr. Jackson.
13 Q. Okay. Have you discussed this issue with
14 your mother at any time.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Now, you knew that your mother was going to
17 testify in a pre-trial hearing in this case, right.
18 A. I knew she was coming up here, yes.
19 Q. Did you ever discuss what she was going to
20 be asked with her.
21 A. I didn’t know what she was being asked. All
22 I know is that she came up here.
23 Q. Did you ever talk to her about what she said
24 after she appeared in court.
25 A. No.
26 Q. Ever discussed it one time with her.
27 A. Huh-uh.
28 Q. All right. At the time she testified in a 921
1 pre-trial hearing in this case, you were living with
2 her, right.
3 A. I’ve been living with them ever since I
4 started college.
5 Q. And you’re not aware of you and your
6 brothers ever talking to her about what she said in
7 court that day, right.
8 A. No, I don’t remember hearing her talk about
9 anything with the court.
10 Q. Do you recall her coming back home after she
11 testified in a pre-trial hearing in this case.
12 A. Yeah, I remember her coming home.
13 Q. Do you recall ever discussing what went on
14 with her.
15 A. No, we just greeted her, and that was it.
16 And the baby was there with her.
17 Q. And so everybody just agreed to be silent.
18 A. Yeah, we know we’re not supposed to talk
19 about each other.
20 Q. Who told you that.
21 A. Well, they told us that.
22 Q. Who did.
23 A. Mr. Sneddon and everybody with law
25 Q. So you never discussed this case with each
26 other at all.
27 A. No, we know we’re not supposed to.
28 Q. Okay. Okay. 922
1 MR. MESEREAU: Can I take a second.
2 Q. Around the time that you were visiting
3 Neverland, say in 2002, did you use a computer.
4 A. No, I never used a computer when I was up
6 Q. Were you able to use a computer.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you ever use a computer at Carol Lamir’s
10 A. Once, because she had me doing her son’s
12 Q. Did you use a computer at her home.
13 A. Yeah. One time, yeah.
14 Q. Okay. Did you ever discuss your use of the
15 computer with her.
16 A. She was the one that told me to get on the
17 computer and do his project.
18 Q. Around the time that you first visited
19 Neverland, did you have a computer at home.
20 A. Well, Mr. Jackson had given Gavin a computer
21 on our first visit, when we got there.
22 Q. Did he take that computer home.
23 A. Yes, he did.
24 Q. Was the family using it at home.
25 A. Mainly Gavin would use it.
26 Q. Did anyone else use it.
27 A. Not that I remember.
28 Q. Did you ever use it. 923
1 A. No, not really. Just when I was seeing what
2 Gavin was doing. But not really.
3 Q. Was that the only computer you had at home.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, at some point, did Gavin take that
6 computer out of the home.
7 A. No. What happened was -- I don’t know who
8 or what happened, that he had called saying that
9 the -- something was messing up with it. So he sent
10 it to Mr. Jackson’s people, and we never got it
12 Q. Okay. And your mother used to complain
13 about that, right.
14 A. About what.
15 Q. Not getting the computer back.
16 A. Not that I remember. I don’t know.
17 Q. And she used to complain about not getting
18 the car back, right.
19 A. I don’t remember. I don’t know.
20 Q. You never heard her do that.
21 A. I don’t know.
22 Q. Well, you said yesterday at some point the
23 car didn’t work, right.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And it went back to Neverland, you thought,
27 A. I just knew that somebody came and picked it
28 up. I didn’t know where it went. 924
1 Q. Your mother used to complain about that,
2 didn’t she.
3 A. Complain about what.
4 Q. The fact that it was her car at that point.
5 A. No, it wasn’t her car. We still called it
6 Gavin’s car.
7 THE COURT: Counsel.
8 MR. MESEREAU: Yes.
9 THE COURT: Break time.
10 MR. MESEREAU: Oh.
11 (Recess taken.)
12 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, does the Court have
13 the right button on there for “PC”.
14 THE COURT: There’s two inputs, either 1 or 4.
15 THE BAILIFF: Input 1.
16 THE COURT: That’s 1; and that’s 4. 1 is for
17 the PC, I’m told. Anything that goes through the
18 PC, I push 1; and any other media, I would push 4.
19 MR. SANGER: 4.
20 THE COURT: Is there some other subject you
21 could cover. We’ve got less than an hour, and they
22 could have that ready for you Monday morning on the
24 MR. MESEREAU: I could do that.
25 THE COURT: Can you.
26 MR. MESEREAU: Sure.
27 THE COURT: Let’s try that.
28 MR. MESEREAU: May I ask how long it might 925
1 take. Because I’d love to end the day with this, if
2 I can.
3 THE COURT: Yes.
4 MR. MESEREAU: I think -- we’re not sure how
5 long it would take. So I could move on, if you’d
7 THE COURT: I think it would be a better use
8 of time than -- he’s working under a great deal of
9 pressure with all of us watching him.
10 MR. SANGER: The watched pot phenomenon.
11 THE COURT: We work better when we’re all
12 calm and sure.
13 THE BAILIFF: Can we try using that one.
14 Take that one out and use that one.
15 MR. SANGER: I think you need to go to 4,
16 then, for this; is that right.
17 MR. MESEREAU: I think we’re ready to go,
18 Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: All right. We’ll go.
20 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Ms. Arvizo, you testified
21 yesterday that you went into the arcade area at
22 Neverland one time.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. A juke box was moved and you went into a
25 wine cellar, correct.
26 A. No, I had saw some people going down in the
27 staircase, so I just followed.
28 Q. Okay. And you’ve testified that you saw 926
1 Michael Jackson pouring wine, correct.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You said that Michael Jackson gave you a
4 glass of wine to drink, right.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you said it tasted --
7 A. Funny.
8 Q. Funny.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You didn’t want to drink it, right.
11 A. I only took a couple of sips, yes.
12 Q. Okay. Do you remember you were interviewed
13 by the Santa Barbara Sheriff’s Department July 6th,
14 2003, and asked questions about that.
15 A. I know I was asked questions about it, yes.
16 Q. You were asked by a Santa Barbara sheriff
17 how you knew it was wine, right.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And your answer was, you knew it was wine
20 because it’s a wine cellar and there’s nothing else
21 to be drinking in a wine cellar, right.
22 A. Yes, there is wine bottles along the left
24 Q. Never told them you had seen Michael Jackson
25 pouring wine from any bottle, correct.
26 A. They never asked me that question, but I did
27 see him.
28 Q. Well, they asked you how you knew it was 927
1 wine, and your answer was, “They were in a wine
2 cellar and there’s nothing else to be drinking in a
3 wine cellar,” correct.
4 A. I’m not going to grab a cup off the counter.
5 It was handed to me.
6 Q. Well, why didn’t you tell that to the Santa
7 Barbara sheriffs then.
8 A. They didn’t ask me about it.
9 Q. Well, they actually did. Would it refresh
10 your recollection to show you the police report.
11 A. I just told them about the building. And
12 they said how did I know it was wine. Because it
13 was a wine cellar.
14 Q. But yesterday, you said you saw Michael
15 Jackson pouring a bottle of wine into a cup, true.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That’s not what you told the sheriffs on
18 that day, right.
19 A. Well, I was in a wine cellar also. I didn’t
20 know I had to say every little detail. I was young
21 back then. I didn’t know I had to say every little
22 detail for it to be right. Different things come
24 Q. Okay. On that particular day, you never
25 said you saw Michael Jackson pouring wine and you
26 never even told them that he gave you wine, right.
27 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object as
28 argumentative and asked and answered. 928
1 THE COURT: Sustained.
2 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did someone tell you that
3 when the defense lawyer asks you questions in court,
4 if you’ve got a problem, to say, “I was very young
5 and I just don’t remember”.
6 A. No, that’s -- I have no way of knowing,
7 because it was years ago. I was very young.
8 Q. Did you ever use that stock phrase in
9 answering any of the prosecutor’s questions.
10 A. I don’t know. Maybe I did; maybe I didn’t.
11 I don’t know.
12 Q. Now, nobody told you that, when in trouble
13 or when in doubt, that’s what you say.
14 A. Nobody told me what to say. When I say it,
15 it’s from me.
16 Q. Okay. You mentioned that, at one point, you
17 drove to The Laugh Factory on Sunset, right.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And The Laugh Factory is on a corner on
20 Sunset in Los Angeles, right.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You’ve been there many times, right.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you said you met a lawyer at The Laugh
25 Factory, right.
26 A. I didn’t know who he was. I just saw -- I
27 just was introduced that he was Bill. I just ran up
28 there real quick to give my mom the message that 929
1 Vinnie had given me. I didn’t know who he was.
2 Q. But correct me if I’m wrong, you were in a
3 car, you drive to The Laugh Factory, right. Your
4 mom gets out, right.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. She goes into The Laugh Factory, right.
7 A. Her and Gavin go in together and Vinnie
8 asked us to stay.
9 Q. And they see a civil lawyer in there, right.
10 A. I didn’t know who he was at that point.
11 Q. But you do know now, right.
12 A. I still kind of really don’t know.
13 Q. Well, you’ve had meetings with him.
14 A. I know he’s a lawyer, but I don’t know.
15 Q. How many times have you met with him.
16 A. Once.
17 Q. And when was that, approximately.
18 A. I don’t remember.
19 Q. Well, let me ask you this: Your mother went
20 into The Laugh Factory and met with Jamie Masada and
21 a lawyer named Dickerman, right.
22 A. I just saw him there. I didn’t know he was
23 a lawyer at that point.
24 Q. And to your knowledge, your mother never
25 complained that anybody’s being falsely imprisoned
26 or abused or told what to say or restrained or
28 A. You got to ask her. I don’t know. 930
1 Q. Have you ever discussed what she said to
2 that lawyer with her.
3 A. I don’t know.
4 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
5 object to that question. Lack of foundation. And
6 also, it could be a violation of attorney-client
8 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor, that privilege
9 was waived a long time ago.
10 MR. SNEDDON: No, it wasn’t.
11 THE COURT: I’ll allow the question.
12 Actually, there is -- the question and the answer
13 was given before the objection. The question was,
14 “Have you ever discussed what she said to that
15 lawyer with her.”
16 “Answer: I don’t know.”
17 Next question.
18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: To your knowledge, when
19 your mother and Gavin got out of the car, went into
20 The Laugh Factory, saw a lawyer, saw Jamie Masada,
21 they never complained that anyone was being held
22 against their will, to your knowledge, right.
23 A. All I knew is that they were going in to see
24 Jamie Masada. I walked in, saw Bill, Mr. Masada, my
25 mom and Gavin sitting there, and I gave my mom the
26 message Vinnie had given me, and I walked right out.
27 I don’t know what they said. I don’t know what
28 happened. 931
1 Q. And you’ve never, to this day, discussed
2 with your mother what was said.
3 A. No.
4 Q. But since that day, you’ve met with this
5 lawyer named Dickerman, right.
6 A. Once, yes.
7 Q. To your knowledge, has your mother had a lot
8 of meetings with Dickerman.
9 A. I don’t know.
10 Q. You don’t know. You have never discussed it
11 with her.
12 A. No.
13 Q. All right. Okay. After that meeting was
14 over, did your mother and Gavin come out of The
15 Laugh Factory.
16 A. About five minutes after I had ran in and
17 given them the message from Vinnie.
18 Q. How long had they been in The Laugh Factory,
19 if you really know.
20 A. Before Vinnie started getting impatient,
21 about 15 minutes or so. I don’t know.
22 Q. And where did you go after they got back in
23 the car, after they were in The Laugh Factory.
24 A. I don’t remember whether we went back to
25 Neverland or to Calabasas. I don’t remember.
26 Q. But it was one of the two, right.
27 A. Yeah.
28 Q. All right. And your stay at the Calabasas 932
1 Inn was about two days, right.
2 A. I don’t remember how long it was.
3 Q. Okay. Did you ever tell someone named
4 Simone that your mother wanted to go to Brazil.
5 A. I’ve never told anybody. I don’t remember
6 that person.
7 Q. Did you ever tell someone named Rio that
8 your mother wanted to go to Brazil, but your
9 brothers didn’t want to go.
10 A. I never -- I don’t know who that person is.
11 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor, at this point
12 we’d like to play the Brad Miller taped interview.
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 MR. MESEREAU: Can we mark it as next in
16 THE COURT: It’s just an audiotape, right.
17 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, it is, Your Honor. We
18 need to mark it next in order.
19 THE COURT: It’s not marked.
20 MR. SANGER: It’s in the machine. If we can
21 mark it when we take it out.
22 THE CLERK: It would be Defense Exhibit 5000.
23 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
24 THE COURT: That’s what their exhibits start
26 THE CLERK: Yes.
27 MR. MESEREAU: We’ll see if it works, Your
28 Honor. 933
1 MR. SNEDDON: For the record, I have no
2 objection. I’ll waive the foundation.
3 THE COURT: Thank you.
4 (Whereupon, a portion of an audiotape,
5 Defendant’s Exhibit 5000, was played for the Court
6 and jury.)
7 MR. MESEREAU: I don’t think that’s going to
9 It’s not working. It’s not working.
10 MR. SANGER: It was working here, but we
11 couldn’t get it through the wires to the --
12 THE COURT: Well, you can work with the
13 technician after court and play it Monday.
14 MR. SANGER: We can do that. Thank you,
15 Your Honor.
16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You left Jay Jackson’s and
17 you went to The Laugh Factory, right.
18 A. I don’t know what you’re talking about. I
19 don’t remember.
20 Q. When you left Jay Jackson’s after the
21 tape-recorded statement, did you go to Neverland or
22 The Laugh Factory.
23 A. I think that’s the point I went to The Laugh
24 Factory. I’m not sure.
25 Q. Okay. Did you leave Major Jay Jackson at
26 his residence.
27 A. Yeah.
28 Q. Did Vinnie pick you up at Major Jay 934
1 Jackson’s home.
2 A. I think it was Vinnie. Because Vinnie’s the
3 one that brought us to The Laugh Factory, but I’m
4 not sure. But I know he was the one that took us to
5 The Laugh Factory.
6 Q. Okay. Did Vinnie take you to Hamid
7 Moslehi’s home as well.
8 A. No. It was Hamid that came and picked us up
9 at Neverland.
10 Q. What kind of car did Vinnie drive.
11 A. They had the -- it’s like a silver Buick. I
12 think it was a Buick. I’m not sure.
13 Q. Do you remember when you went to get a
15 A. I kind of do, but I know we went to, like,
16 an office-type place, but --
17 Q. Well, it was a federal building, wasn’t it.
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. And that was in Los Angeles, right.
20 A. Yes, it was.
21 Q. And Vinnie drove you; is that correct.
22 A. Yes. Yes, it is.
23 Q. And he parked the car somewhere near the
24 federal building, right.
25 A. I guess, yeah.
26 Q. And you were with your mom, right.
27 A. Yeah, we were all together.
28 Q. With Gavin and Star, right. 935
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You parked your car, and all of you got out
3 of the car and walked into the federal building,
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you ever hear anybody scream, “Help,
7 we’re being held against our will,” or words to that
9 A. No.
10 Q. There were federal employees and agents all
11 over that building, right.
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. And nobody said a word, right.
14 A. Yeah. They’re that scary.
15 Q. Your mother came up with the idea of calling
16 Michael Jackson “Daddy,” right.
17 A. No.
18 Q. You testified yesterday that your mother
19 never came out of the cottage, right.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And that’s not true, is it.
22 A. That is true.
23 Q. Your mother was in the theater from time to
24 time, was she not.
25 A. No.
26 Q. You were never in the theater with your
27 mother and your brothers watching a film at
28 Neverland. 936
1 A. On the first visit, I think we went and all
2 saw something. That was the very first visit of --
3 with David and everything. But other than that, I
4 don’t remember us going in the theater.
5 Q. Do you remember the time you, your mother,
6 Gavin and Star and Michael Jackson were in the
7 theater and your mother asked everyone to “kneel
8 down and say a prayer to Daddy”.
9 A. I don’t remember that.
10 Q. Do you ever remember being in the theater at
11 Neverland with your mother, Gavin, Star and Michael
13 A. I don’t remember that.
14 Q. Do you ever remember being with your mother
15 at this zoo at Neverland.
16 A. On the very, very first visit when we all
17 came up together with David, we did go to the zoo.
18 Q. Are you saying that, after that, your mother
19 never left her cottage.
20 A. My mom didn’t leave her cottage.
21 Q. Were her meals served at the cottage, to
22 your knowledge.
23 A. Yes, they were brought to her.
24 Q. Three times a day.
25 A. I think it’s -- I don’t know. I wasn’t
27 Q. Do you remember, your mother told the three
28 social workers from the Los Angeles Department of 937
1 Children & Family Services that she’s always at the
2 main residence.
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Remember, she told those workers that she’s
5 there all times of day.
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Do you think your mother was lying.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you think your mother lied throughout
10 that interview.
11 A. Somewhat. I don’t know. But I know those
12 comments can’t be true.
13 Q. And that was the day you lied about bringing
14 girlfriends to Neverland, right.
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. And you’re telling this jury that you’ve
17 never brought any girlfriend to Neverland.
18 A. No.
19 Q. But you told it to the Los Angeles
20 Department of Children & Family Services.
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Did you discuss with your mother ahead of
23 time that you were going to tell those social
24 workers that you bring your girlfriend to Neverland.
25 A. Not that I remember, no.
26 Q. You don’t remember ever talking to your mom
27 about what you were going to say.
28 A. Not that I remember, no. 938
1 Q. Okay. Were you in the room when your mother
2 told her lies to the social workers.
3 A. I don’t know if it was all lies. I don’t
4 know. I don’t remember what was said.
5 Q. But you remember some of them were lies,
7 A. Yeah, I remember -- when you tell me certain
8 things, I do remember.
9 Q. Okay. Now, at some point, you learned your
10 mother didn’t want to go to Brazil, right.
11 A. She didn’t want to go to Brazil at all.
12 Q. Well, at some point, you learned that you
13 weren’t going to Brazil, right.
14 A. My mom didn’t want to go at all.
15 Q. I know you’re saying that.
16 A. When that subject was brought up.
17 Q. And your position is, that you’ve never told
18 any other witness that your mother wanted to go to
19 Brazil, but your brothers wanted to stay, right.
20 A. My brothers wanted to stay and be with
21 Michael, yes.
22 Q. At some point, instead of going to Brazil,
23 your entire family was brought home, right.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And who brought them home.
26 A. I think it was Vinnie that brought us all
27 back to my grandmother’s house.
28 Q. So Vinnie drove you to your grandmother’s 939
1 house and dropped the family off, right.
2 A. Yes, because we had to make up -- my mom
3 called me and said vaguely, “Your grandfather’s
4 sick. You need to come home. Davellin, get your
5 stuff together, it’s time to go.” And she just --
6 you could tell she just wanted to get us out of
8 Q. And when you went to leave, Vinnie took you
9 to your grandparents, right.
10 A. Well, they were kind of irritated about the
11 whole fact we had asked them over and over, and they
12 finally agreed to it.
13 Q. I know what you’re saying. But the reality
14 is, when you wanted to leave, you went home, right.
15 A. After a hassle, yes, we did.
16 Q. And when you asked Jesus Salas on an earlier
17 date to take you to Los Angeles in the middle of the
18 night, he did it, right.
19 A. Yeah, we had to do it very quiet, and we had
20 to be very quiet.
21 Q. I know your position. Have you discussed
22 what words you’re going to say about this event with
23 anybody before today.
24 A. No, these are my feelings. This is what I
25 saw happening.
26 Q. Okay. Okay. You testified yesterday that
27 when you were in Michael Jackson’s bedroom, you saw
28 alcohol, right. 940
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. You said, “I know the shape of bottles, but
3 I don’t know what they were,” right.
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. And you never tasted what was in those
6 bottles, correct.
7 A. No, I just saw that they were there in the
9 Q. Okay. You never said Mr. Jackson gave you
10 anything that was in those bottles, right.
11 A. Not while in the bedroom, no.
12 Q. Okay. What else did you see in Mr.
13 Jackson’s room that only time you say you were
15 A. Other than what I’ve already said.
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. I don’t remember anything else.
18 Q. Remember any pictures on the walls.
19 A. I don’t remember.
20 Q. Any toys in the room.
21 A. Don’t remember.
22 Q. Do you know where his children were at that
24 A. I think they were there at the beginning,
25 but then the nannies came and got them. I’m not
26 sure about that.
27 Q. Okay. Did you see nannies in the main house
28 at that point. 941
1 A. When I was --
2 MR. SNEDDON: Excuse me, Your Honor, I’m
3 going to object as to what “that point” is as vague.
4 MR. MESEREAU: Sure.
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase it, Your Honor.
7 Q. When you went to Mr. Jackson’s bedroom for
8 the only time you say you were ever there, you saw
9 nannies, correct.
10 A. When they came and got them.
11 Q. Did you ever see the room the nannies live
13 A. I don’t remember.
14 Q. Did you meet the nannies at Neverland.
15 A. I met -- I had met Grace the first time we
16 had went, with David and everybody. But I met the
17 second nanny at Miami.
18 Q. Two nannies, right.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Same nannies you saw at Neverland when you
21 were in Michael’s room, right.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Have you ever told anyone that you were in
24 Michael’s room more than once.
25 A. No.
26 Q. You testified when you were at the Calabasas
27 Inn, you went shopping, right.
28 A. Yes. 942
1 Q. Where did you go shopping.
2 A. For the suitcases, we went to an outlet
3 mall. And then for the clothes, we went to like a
5 Q. And you went to a number of stores in the
6 mall where you bought clothes, right.
7 A. No, we just went to one department store.
8 That’s all I remember.
9 Q. Do you recall anyone in that department
10 store saying words to the effect, “Help, we’re being
11 restrained or held against our will.”
12 A. No, none of us said that. Vinnie was with
13 us the whole time.
14 Q. You said you went to a -- was it a
15 Walgreen’s where you had a photo taken.
16 A. Yes, we did.
17 Q. Where was that Walgreen’s located, if you
19 A. Near Calabasas, I guess. It was when we
20 were at Calabasas.
21 Q. When you went into the Walgreen’s, do you
22 recall anybody saying words to the effect, “Help,
23 we’re being held against our will”.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Okay. Do you recall security personnel in
26 any of those malls.
27 A. I don’t remember.
28 Q. Do you recall security personnel in 943
2 A. I don’t think so.
3 Q. Do you recall security personnel in the
4 store you went and bought clothes at.
5 A. There was -- I don’t remember seeing any.
6 Q. Where did you eat that day when you were
7 shopping; do you know.
8 A. I don’t remember.
9 Q. It was not at the hotel, right.
10 A. I think there was the one time he took us to
11 eat somewhere. I don’t remember.
12 Q. But you certainly don’t recall your mom or
13 anybody telling anybody at the restaurant, “Help us,
14 we’re being restrained or held against our will,”
16 A. No, I don’t.
17 Q. Okay. How long were you in Walgreen’s; do
18 you know.
19 A. 20 minutes.
20 Q. And you had your photo taken.
21 A. All of us did.
22 Q. Okay. Have you ever discussed the J.C.
23 Penney case with your dad.
24 A. Which dad. My stepfather or David.
25 Q. David.
26 A. No.
27 Q. Never talked to him about it at all.
28 A. No. 944
1 Q. And I think I asked you this earlier. If I
2 did, I apologize. You never discussed the J.C.
3 Penney case with Gavin or your mom, right.
4 A. None of them.
5 Q. Okay. Ever see your mom, during the J.C.
6 Penney case, ask your brothers to write out what
7 happened and then go over it with them.
8 A. No. The only -- the only writing I saw was
9 David would sit at the kitchen table and write, but
10 that’s the only writing that I saw.
11 Q. Never saw your mother do it.
12 A. Never saw her write anything.
13 Q. Was David writing about what happened at
14 J.C. Penney.
15 A. I don’t know what he was writing, but I
16 think that he liked to do notes or whatever. I
17 don’t know.
18 Q. But why do you remember that when I
19 mentioned J.C. Penney.
20 A. Because that’s -- that’s the only notes that
21 I remember.
22 Q. About J.C. Penney.
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. So you remember David writing notes about
25 J.C. Penney.
26 A. Yeah.
27 Q. Do you remember what he did with those
28 notes. 945
1 A. I don’t know. I guess he was just reviewing
2 what he thought or what happened to him or whatever.
3 I don’t know what he was writing about, really. But
4 I know that he would write a lot.
5 Q. About J.C. Penney, right.
6 A. I guess so. You have to ask him. I don’t
7 know what he was writing.
8 Q. But clearly, if this jogs your memory a
9 little bit, it must have been the time of that case
10 you saw David writing things out.
11 A. Yeah. He’s not really good with --
12 memory-wise, so I don’t know. You’ll have to ask
14 Q. Okay. Did you see David talking to your mom
15 about what he was writing.
16 A. I don’t remember what happened. I was too
17 young to remember. And all I remember about that
18 case is Gavin’s elbow, and we came and picked him
19 up. He was hurting and Star’s head was hurting.
20 That’s all I remember. I wasn’t involved in that
21 case at all.
22 Q. Okay. Okay. Do you recall your mom saying
23 that David’s brother Ray will have people killed.
24 A. David had said that.
25 Q. Pardon me.
26 A. David had told me that.
27 Q. Well, have you ever told people that your
28 mom talked about that. 946
1 A. No. David was the one that told that to me.
2 Q. Okay. Told you that he had a brother Ray
3 that can have people killed.
4 A. Well, I know he has a brother Ray, and David
5 always said, “Oh, my brother has connections,” and
6 stuff like that. And when he held me in that car
7 that time, that’s when he told me all those threats
8 and stuff.
9 Q. But your mom’s never discussed it, to your
11 A. No, she --
12 Q. Never talked about it.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. Did you ever see your mom dancing on
15 the premises at Neverland.
16 A. No, not that I remember. She was always in
17 her room.
18 Q. So she’d stay in her room for days and days,
20 A. Which visit are you talking about.
21 Q. How about any visit.
22 A. The only visit that I really saw her come
23 out was the first visit. And after that, the other
24 visit, she never really came out.
25 Q. Do you know anything about your mother
26 wanting to set up an account -- a bank account for
27 the money that was raised in the fund-raisers.
28 A. All I know, Gavin had a trust fund. That’s 947
1 all I know about it.
2 Q. Okay. And how did you learn about that.
3 A. I just heard about it. I don’t know.
4 Q. Your mom told you she was setting up a trust
5 fund, right.
6 A. I don’t know. All I know is Gavin had a
7 trust fund. I don’t know who set it up or what,
8 because David and my mom were still together.
9 Q. Okay. Did you ever tell Fritz Coleman you
10 wanted him to help raise money.
11 A. I don’t -- I’ve never asked anybody for
13 Q. Okay. Let me just ask you if you know some
14 people. Do you know any of the employees at
16 A. On just a hi/bye basis, yeah.
17 Q. Ever meet any of the employees at Neverland.
18 A. Just a hi and bye.
19 Q. I’m sorry.
20 A. Just a hi and bye and --
21 Q. So you don’t know any of their names.
22 A. No, I just remember how they look.
23 Q. Okay. Do you know Arlene Kennedy.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Who was Arlene Kennedy.
26 A. She was the owner of the dance studio that
27 we went to.
28 Q. When did you last talk to her; do you know. 948
1 A. A while ago. I don’t remember.
2 Q. Do you remember your mother telling Mrs.
3 Kennedy that the press were causing havoc after the
4 Bashir documentary.
5 A. I don’t remember. I know they were, but I
6 don’t remember if she told her or not.
7 Q. Okay. Your mother constantly complained
8 about the press causing problems after Bashir,
10 A. Well, they’d mainly go to my grandparents’
11 house. Only one person came to the East L.A.
12 apartment. And my grandparents are old and just --
13 she just wanted to protect them and not have them go
14 through that.
15 Q. But you just said the press was causing
16 havoc, right.
17 A. Yeah, at my grandparents’ house. That’s
18 where they would go.
19 Q. But your mother always complained about the
20 press causing problems, after Bashir, for your
21 family, right.
22 A. Well, they are family. Those are my
24 Q. No, your mother was complaining about what
25 the press was trying to do to you and Gavin and Star
26 and she, right.
27 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
28 object as vague as to when and where; lack of 949
2 MR. MESEREAU: Sure. I thought I said after
3 the Bashir --
4 MR. SNEDDON: Well, that’s wide open.
5 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase it, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Shortly after the Bashir
8 documentary, your family was hassled by media, true.
9 A. Just one came to the East L.A. apartment
10 where we were at. The rest were constantly going to
11 my grandparents’ house.
12 Q. Now, it sounds like you’ve memorized that
13 answer, because you’ve said the same identical
14 answer so many times.
15 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative. Ask
16 that be stricken.
17 THE COURT: Sustained as argumentative.
18 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll withdraw it.
19 Q. After the Bashir documentary, is it true
20 that your mother spoke to a lot of people in your
21 presence and complained about the media.
22 A. Yes. The media that was going to my
23 grandparents’ house. That’s where my mom’s, like,
24 driver’s license and everything is registered at.
25 Q. After the Bashir documentary, didn’t your
26 mother constantly complain about the way Gavin was
28 A. One reporter -- okay, one -- there were two 950
1 of them together, but it was one that came to the
2 East L.A. apartment. The rest were going to my
3 grandparents’ house. That’s all I remember.
4 THE COURT: Just a moment. You’re not
5 listening to the question. He’s not asking you what
6 happened. He’s asking you about a complaint.
7 Would you read the question back to her.
8 (Record read.)
9 THE WITNESS: No. Only one came to the
10 apartment, and I don’t know.
11 THE COURT: Just -- no, just answer the
13 THE WITNESS: No.
14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you go over that
15 answer with anyone before you testified today.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you -- in your meeting with Mr. Sneddon,
18 did you talk about what your response to that
19 question was going to be.
20 A. No, we didn’t talk about that.
21 Q. Did anyone tell you to memorize that answer
22 and just repeat it every time you were asked that
24 A. No.
25 Q. You’d agree that whenever you’re asked that
26 question, the same identical words come out.
27 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object, and ask
28 that be stricken and counsel be admonished. This is 951
1 like the fourth time within the last five minutes.
2 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll withdraw it.
3 MR. SNEDDON: I’ll order -- ask that the
4 jury be ordered to disregard the statement of
6 THE COURT: The objection is sustained.
7 You’re admonished not to argue with the witness.
8 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, sir.
9 Q. You said George Lopez was a close friend of
10 your family, correct.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And when did you last see George Lopez.
13 A. It was during Gavin’s cancer, because
14 David’s the one that demolished that relationship.
15 Q. Did you meet with him a number of times.
16 A. He would go to the hospital and visit Gavin.
17 Q. And were you there when he visited Gavin.
18 A. Yes, he would bring him, like, a little toy
19 car and stuff.
20 Q. Did you ever see him at The Laugh Factory.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How many times, if you can estimate.
23 A. We saw him much -- he was the one that was
24 our personal one that they had chosen for us, to
25 teach us how to do our little comedy acts.
26 Q. Did he teach you and your brothers how to do
27 comedy routines.
28 A. While we were at The Laugh Factory, yes. 952
1 Q. Was he part of the class you took there.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. At some time, your father had a falling out
4 with George Lopez, right.
5 A. What do you mean by that. Like the
6 relationship was gone.
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. Well, because of David’s fault, yes.
9 Q. Okay. At some point, your mother accused
10 George Lopez of stealing 300 bucks from Gavin,
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you ever hear anything about that.
14 A. No. I never heard anything like that.
15 Q. Well, you certainly heard something about
16 why the relationship ended --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- right.
19 And you’re blaming that all on David, right.
20 A. Yes. Because he went and he argued with
22 Q. Do you know what he argued about.
23 A. All I know is it was an open event, and he
24 went to argue with George about -- I don’t know what
25 it was about. And after that, George didn’t -- told
26 him he didn’t want to see him ever again.
27 Q. After that event, did George ever see your
28 mother, you, Gavin or Star again. 953
1 A. He didn’t come and see us anymore.
2 Q. Did you try to reach him.
3 A. No. David had told us that George didn’t
4 want to see us anymore.
5 Q. Okay. Do you know someone named Brett
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Who is Brett Ratner.
9 A. He was the director for Rush Hour 2.
10 Q. Where did you meet him.
11 A. On the set of Rush Hour 2.
12 Q. Did Chris Tucker introduce you to him.
13 A. Yes, he did.
14 Q. Did you get to know him pretty well.
15 A. Somewhat. Not really.
16 Q. Were you ever at his house.
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you ever hang out with him anyplace.
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you ever see him off the set of Rush
22 A. Well, Chris took us to like -- like a
23 restaurant they were at. And we just sat with them
24 for like a couple minutes, and then I think we went
25 back to our hotel room.
26 Q. When did you last see him.
27 A. I don’t remember.
28 Q. Did you ever see Gavin talking to Brett 954
2 A. While they were on the set, yeah. They
3 would play with each other and laugh and stuff.
4 Q. Now, getting back to your comments that you
5 saw a change in your brother at some point.
6 Remember those comments you made in response to the
7 prosecutor’s questions.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you have any knowledge of an event where
10 Gavin --
11 THE COURT: They can’t hear you now.
12 THE BAILIFF: You have your book on the
13 microphone. You turned it off.
14 MR. MESEREAU: Oh, the book’s on the....
15 Q. Do you recall an event where your brother
16 Gavin shot your mother with a BB gun.
17 A. Yes, I do. He shot me also.
18 Q. When did that happen.
19 A. That was after we came back from -- after we
20 left Neverland for good.
21 Q. Okay. And he took a BB gun and shot the two
22 of you.
23 A. Yes, he did. He was always -- from the
24 point that he left Neverland, he had changed
25 dramatically into an aggressive person.
26 Q. But he never was aggressive in school before
27 he had gone to Neverland, is that what you’re
28 saying. 955
1 A. No, he never got into fights and stuff at
2 school, not that I remember. He was just very
4 Q. But he was thrown out, wasn’t he.
5 A. No, he was never thrown out of school.
6 Q. Was he ever thrown out of class, to your
8 A. I don’t know.
9 Q. You don’t know.
10 A. Gavin had never been aggressive to me and my
11 mom before.
12 Q. Are you aware of your brothers, Star and
13 Gavin, ever being caught in the wine cellar at
14 Neverland alone.
15 A. No. They were always with Michael.
16 Q. How do you know that.
17 A. Because that’s -- I never saw them anywhere
18 by themselves. If I did see them, they were with
20 Q. Didn’t you say that you didn’t hang out with
21 them at Neverland.
22 A. Yeah, but I would go around the ranch. And
23 every time that I saw them passing by, or I would go
24 in a room that they were, like, in the office or
25 anything, they were with him.
26 Q. Did you ever learn that Gavin and Star were
27 caught breaking into the wine cellar at Neverland
28 without Michael Jackson anywhere in sight. 956